Heritage Committee - 3 August 2023

Welcome everyone to the Heritage Committee meeting for the 3rd of August 2023. My name is Danielle Wheeler. I'm a councillor and the chair of the committee. I'd like to acknowledge that we are meeting on the unceded land of the Darug and Darkinjung people and ask Erin if she would be happy to give a welcome to country.

Thank you. Dharrug ngurra bababarriyang. So this is Darug land. These are the lands and the waterways of my people. I just ask that as we work through tonight's meeting, remembering that heritage comes from pre-colonial through to colonial through to today, and understanding that equally it needs to be respected, and that our ancestors' DNA is still here. It's still in the soil, still in the trees, still in the animals, and it's part of who we are.

Thank you. Thanks, Erin. I'd also like to pay my respects to all Elders past, present and emerging, and any Aboriginal people here tonight. We've got Gay Wilson joining us via Zoom. Do we have any apologies?

Okay

Committee members and members of the public attending the meeting are advised that in the event of an emergency, you'll be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit, which is directly up through the doors there, following the guidance of the warden. I've got no idea who's the warden. Tracy, thank you. Always useful to know. And I'd also like to make sure you know that the meetings of the Council Committee are recorded. In terms of the Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, this may involve the recording of personal information provided at the time of the meeting. The recordings are made to assist staff in compiling the minutes of the meeting and to enable the podcasting of Council Committee meetings.

The provision of any information that's recorded is voluntary. If any person does not wish to be recorded, they should not address or request to address the meeting. The recordings may be made available to other persons where such access is in accordance with the relevant regulations, and the recordings are stored on Council's record management system. Right. So that's the preliminaries sorted .

Welcome back. We've had quite the hiatus, and it's lovely to see you all back in, and the refurbished council chamber. Note the light not seen shining through those windows for at least two decades, I think. We didn't put a heritage listing on the curtains, but they were probably quite old enough for one, nor were they fashioned into clothing for any children, despite my suggestions. The first item we've got is the response to the Mayoral Minute, McQuaid Park, Windsor. Now, can everyone see a copy of their business paper before we go on? And, Gay, can you hear me?

Yes and yes. Great, and that answers my next question. Now, if you want to speak and you put your hand up and I don't notice you, feel free to call out.

That's fine, thank you.

Andrew, are you speaking to this one? Yes,

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Sorry, Andrew, I'll just stop. I haven't asked for any declarations of interest. I have an interest in item 3.12, the Timber Slab Barn study. Anyone else?

Yes, Madam Chair, I have a similar interest.

Thank you. And Michelle?

Thank you. Great. Lots of us interested in slab barns.

Madam Chair, if I can also just add that the photos in the Heritage Assistance Fund are of my house from a previous year.

Right, so that's 3.16 and 3.12. Thank you, and we also note that there's time for some general business at the end of the meeting. If anyone has any items for general business, you could give us a heads up now, or you can hold them until that point.

Andrew.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So this item is in response to a mayoral minute from earlier this year in regard to McQuaid Park and vicinity improvements. So the mayoral minute, there was resolved by Council, called for a report in terms of the costs and priorities in terms of a whole list of identified improvements, and also included a recommendation or resolution for input from the Heritage Committee in terms of those various improvements. So we've included in the business papers the full details of the mayoral minute and what was resolved by Council, so a whole heap of improvements that were identified in terms of signage, the fountain, the pond bridge, the RSL cenotaph, the view corridors, trees and undergrowth, fencing, bins, tables and chairs, the playground, events, maintenance, public amenities, and the croquet.

It also called for input in terms of the gateway signage and also signage and fencing to the Catholic burial ground, which is actually opposite Council chambers. So essentially seeking input from the Heritage Committee in terms of those identified improvements before we report back to Council responding to the mayoral minute. Thank you. Would anyone like to make any comment on this item? Mary and then Jill. Thanks, Daniela. I just had a question for Andrea around that at first. Is this—I'm just clarifying what the recommendation meant in that there's input from this committee. Is

That to assist you with costing, or do you have ideas of the costing if

Anyone were

To ask

About costs for specific things? We don't have details of costings at the present time. So the Mayoral Minute had identified these improvements, and there will be a report that goes to Council on

The costings. But as part of the resolution was to get specific input from the Heritage Committee in terms of the identified improvements. Yeah. Yeah

Thanks. Jill. Thank you. With regard to the Krupp gun, I was thinking it doesn't really identify with McQuaid Park and is very rare, so it would be very well located either at the museum or maybe at the Regional Gallery. It has been restored. So

Is everyone aware of the Krupp gun, what it actually is, its history and importance? For the newer members of the committee, does anyone need a

Sherryl?

I only know what I've read in the business paper, in the plan of management, so if you have any further

Detail, that's— Andrew, do you want to run through the— no? That's a no face I can see. So it's my understanding of the Krupp gun, unless somebody else has a grand understanding of the Krupp gun and would like to talk about it, we've had people in the past who— Craig Johnson, who was responsible for the refurbishment of it, was very excited about the Krupp gun, and it lived for quite a while at the bottom of the library, but again, wasn't particularly well associated with the library either, being a piece of heavy artillery, not something one normally associates with books. And so it was— It was removed from the bottom of the library, but it really needs to be under cover, is my understanding, and that's the difficulty with the crup gun. It's also quite large and heavy, and that makes finding a home for it difficult.

It might be easiest, I think, if we run through the list of identified improvements, A through R, quite quickly and see if people have comments on specific items. That might be the most helpful way to give feedback to the staff. So we'll deal with the crup gun first , which is R, but we'll go back to A shortly. So Jill's made the point that it doesn't really fit in with the theme of Macquarie Park. Is that the general consensus of the committee, that Macquarie Park is not the best spot for it? Graham, can I—is that your light? Would you mind just standing that up a little bit? Because I'm struggling to see it. Thank you. Okay,

Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I've got an overall question, if I could, and that's in regard to heritage significance of the park, as I understand it it's of state significance. And I just wanted to ask if any or all of these items have actually been through a DA process and approval process from the New South Wales Heritage.

Andrew?

So I can confirm that obviously Macquarie Park is state listed. In terms of these items, so obviously a number of these are already existing items that have been there for a number of years, and some are, you know, new proposals. So I guess for particularly the new elements. Until Council gets the report to identify which of these it proceeds with, that will then identify what's required further in terms of potential applications or exemptions under the current listing.

Madam Chair ? Yes. So I've got Jan first and then I'll go to you, Gay.

I've just got a question. When we're talking about in the park, are we talking about the specific memorial area to the wars in the corner of [unclear] School, or are we talking about in the park generally?

I don't think we've been that specific in the. .. Because that could make a difference. With regard to the crop guns?

Yes, as to whether we agree to it or not.

I don't think we know the answer to that. I think we have a general idea of trying to house the crop gun in the park , but I don't think the location within the park has been specified.

Did you want to speak to that, Jan, before we move on? Then I'm going to go to Gay.

I would like us to consider putting it in that memorial area, because otherwise that has at least some significance to guns from the wars, whereas the rest of the park I don't think is suitable

In general. Thanks, Gay.

That's basically what I was going to say. You've got military with the military.. . So that sounds to me like a perfectly appropriate place to put the gun, with the memorial gate.

Thanks, Michelle.

I was just going to say that that square is actually was known as Memorial Park, that back corner bit.

To the rest of Macquarie Park.

Any other thoughts on the Krupp gun? Jill?

There was mention that it may be located next to the tennis area, and they might build a special building to protect it there, so that's also a possibility.

Mary? Who might do that, Jill? Is that the RSL or someone? No, no

That was one of the council's ideas, that that could be where they could put it.

Right, okay. Thanks. It's rather large. I've just looked them up, and that's not a huge amount of area there if it has to have a structure over it. I mean, I just looked some up, and none of those seem to have structures over it, and I assume the covering it is a protective mechanism. So, yeah, I don't know.

Certainly the information that the Heritage Advisory Committee was given last term was that the quality of the piece and the restoration work itself was so— well, it's expensive—that it needed to be covered in order to protect it. Probably should also flag the significance of putting a German gun in a memorial park for soldiers who fought in a war against Germany.

Is this something that the RSL want to have input in? Like, is it worth talking to them? I'd hate to stick it somewhere that's offensive to them. Well,

Certainly, I certainly think it probably is worth consulting with the RSL, or that the RSL also have their Senate half planned for on the site as well. So let's pause the crap gun there with those caveats around it and go back to the beginning of the list, which is 1A, signage . Do we have any further specific information about signage apart from the fact that it's part of the signage project that we heard about last time the committee met?

So Council has a program of wayfinding signage that's about to roll out in certain areas, and the first area, I think, is Richmond. Yep, and further work to do in terms of other locations. But I guess in terms of this specific Mayoral Minute resolution, it's calling for the erection of signage on each corner and sort of giving some indication there as to potentially what that wording may be. So there's, I guess, input from the committee that we're seeking in terms of that, noting that the Mayoral Minute also refers to the guidelines of our current wayfinding and signage plans.

Thank you. And there's actually two aspects to signage. So two under additionally, after we've finished with the list A, talks about the gateway signage, which is that project that Andrew's just spoken about. So 1A refers to— Putting signage up that says The Great Square, which was the original name for the park , and information about Indigenous names and references. Would anyone like to comment on this? Erin, and then Jan.

Thank you. It's sort of in between this and another item.

Great that we want to put Indigenous, like our local language on that. We also need to understand that there is a specific monument inside that park that is defamed every year , and I would like to see the possibility of—we're not going to be able to remove it. That was, through our community, like the best option. We're not going to be able to remove it. Council have always said no. But if there is a possibility of having another monument and focusing on the truth-telling of what

Primarily Macquarie did , that would be kind of hand in hand with if you're going to actually put the local name of that place, to have some truth-telling about that place. That's my—

Thank you. So Andrew and I discussed this earlier, and Andrew, you felt that there was space within the plan of management, which is included in your documents. For that , did you want to elaborate?

Yes. So there is a management action in the adopted plan of management for Macquarie Park that talks about interpretive signage referencing the Darug, but also obviously the colonial heritage as well. So there is a specific management action that calls for interpretive signage and elements around that. So we'd obviously have to work on what that interpretive element and signage and wording did look like, but, you know, the plan does provide for that.

I'm asking also for a monument, not just signage. If we're paying respect to somebody that did such atrocity to our people, at least have the same sort of respect given to the local people, please .

So would you like that added as an additional point to the recommendation?

Okay, I'll work on some words and run them past you, and we'll— Jan, next.

I just wanted to say two things. I agree totally with what Erin's saying. I think that would be an excellent thing to put on the agenda. And I also wanted to point out that the signage in Richmond Park, which I supplied originally , was given before I did the research for my Hawkesbury Settlement Revealed book, in which I learnt a lot more. And it says that Richmond began the European settlement in 1795, and I've now found out that it was 1794. So can we keep that in mind and actually get the right date for Richmond's beginnings for the European settlement, please?

That, Andrew. Madam Chair. Yes, Gay, and then Mary.

Thank you. I'm just wondering whether the signage is going to have Braille on it for people with limited vision.

That's some—it's my understanding that that's our policy, is to have far more inclusive signage than we've had in the past. Is that—can you speak to whether that's part of the wayfinding?

Yeah, we'll take that on notice, Gay, but I think that certainly is the intention. We can—but the staff can take that and feed that back to Council as well.

Mary Thanks, Danielle. I also agree with Erin. I think it's a sign of maturity to accurately depict our history and to do it in such a way. And I think a suitable monument and the story, the two stories side by side, is actually more than just fixing something. It's actually progressing us forward in some way. I'd just like some clarity—Maybe not

Side by side, Mary.

I don't mean like that. I mean both just, yeah, both existing. Not—I didn't mean literally side by side, although that could be interesting. With point A, just some clarity around, and I understand the significance of the Great Square, I wasn't quite sure what that actually meant. So the Great Square and other names used for the park, including Macquarie Park, that reads to me that the big sign would say the Great Square and then it would have other names. But I'm worried about confusion about location when it is designated in all public mapping as Macquarie Park. So I'm happy to have all the names used or anything like that, but I just wanted some clarity around what would be the actual— Reference point in terms of that locality being, if there's a big sign, then it needs to say what everybody understands that to be, even if it's got the other names on there. Andrew?

So, yeah, obviously the name of the square remains as Macquarie Park. The plan of management does talk about the references to the Great Square. So I guess the actual resolution from the mayoral minute is to seek input in terms of this proposal to have these words included. So I guess if there's potential questions or queries from the committee, then nothing that's appropriate to put back to Council in terms of what those details would look like. Yeah.

Thanks, Andrew. Yeah, I just wanted to sort of get a, and I guess for your purposes, you need a better understanding of what exactly that means in terms of what such a sign would actually contain and what it would look like. My only other point is that I think we do need to bear in mind that massive signs could detract from the heritage of the—we don't want to overdo the signage, but I agree that such signage is really valuable, but just not too large. Any further feedback on

Signage? Cindy

Just, well , it's a question to Erin, if we're putting Darug, should we not be acknowledging Burruberongal first

On signage?

Right. Just put your microphone on because

You're not on the tape. We shall discuss that in a closed meeting.

Certainly, I think that would be something that would need to go to the community, to your community, to discuss what you wanted to see from a sign. So I'm trying to work on some words for that section. Erect a monument to facilitate truth telling about—

Oh, good. Thank you.

Truth telling with equal value and impact, including your

Direct story, timeline and history.

Sorry.

A monument and truth telling of equal value and impact to the existing Macquarie statue of the Dharug story, timeline and history.

Is everyone clear on that? Because I'm going to get you to vote

On

That. I

Just

Wanted

To clarify, do you mean the entire Dharug history, or are you equating it to the same time period? I just, I mean, I'm happy for either, but—

No, it's not going to be the entire time history. We've got 60,000

Years— I know, and that was there in my question. Yes

No, just, I think it's in just to put some value and balance and equality back into someone like Macquarie, and back into how he's related back into the Dharug people. So a more generalised historical

So you're talking about— Are you talking really about that interaction, that colonial, that early colonial interaction period with Macquarie? Dave, okay. To close that down, the frontier wars. Yeah, okay. Because he led the frontier wars. Is that enough information for the staff?

Yes. All right. Shall we move on from signage?

Daniel, can I just clarify? You didn't put the word monument into that motion, which could get reinterpreted

As to justify, in terms to

What you were saying. I

Did or I did not?

I don't think you did.

I think she came

In halfway through mine. Monument and truth-telling of

Equal value and impact of the Darug story timeline and history

Of frontier wars. Okay. We all clear on where we're going with that? Yep. Excellent.

B, the fountain. Comments , please.

Mary?

Yes, well, I— of course this is why

I asked the

Question about cost. This is why I asked the question about cost before, because the suggestion is to replace the current fountain, and I have no idea what a fountain costs. And so that's why I was asking, would something like that even be feasible? Like, are we just suggesting things that are way out of proportion, or are they feasible? So that's a question for the staff. I mean, I know these are for future actions, but just, I don't know.

So cost is a query. Any other comments on fountains and the proposal to replace the current fountain with a larger one that is lit with various colours?

Madam Chair, my question is why.

Sorry? Sorry, Gail.

My question is why do you want to make the current fountain bigger?

I don't know. It has been—it was a suggestion that the Heritage Committee was asked to give feedback on. So I think why is probably a fair question. Anyone else? Yeah

I'm just wondering what the significance of various colours in the fountain is.

Yes, I certainly concur with that question too.

Right. So I guess the Heritage Committee—I think, is it fair to say that the Heritage Committee doesn't understand why it needs to be larger or coloured? Yes.

Except that I'd like to say that it's not— it's nothing, but I think it's just a squash bit of pipe and it sprays the water out. I mean, it's not a particularly interesting feature. It's just, I don't know. I think the community wants to put a bit of love and passion into the park. It's just there.

And I mean, if we put these things forward with a cost and a way forward, we can probably obtain funding at some stage some way forward, maybe, possibly.

So what's the

Committee's view on increasing the size of the fountain? Can I just comment? It is increasing the size of the fountain, just upgrading the pump to make it be a bigger water spout. It

Would be nice to have a feature or something. Can

You use your microphone?

I think the community's feedback is that it'd be nice to have some sort of feature, not just a squash bit of pipe, something that'd bring people to the community and enjoy the park and a reason to be there.

So your role as the Heritage Committee is to determine whether that's appropriate for a state significant park and give council advice on the use of that feature in the park. That's why this motion has come to you from the council chamber. So if you could think about that and respond, that would be really helpful for the staff who then have to bring this back to council to make a decision and for us to weigh up issues of cost and appropriateness. Jill?

I think it's in a highly visible position, and it's the first thing you see when you drive past. And I think making a feature with some colours would be really good.

Cheryl? I was just going to say that I think it's good to have a fountain. I'm not, you know, I think it's the fountain there, whether it's the current fountain or a bigger fountain, a higher water spout, I think I agree with that aspect of it.

Michael?

Madam Chair, I'm a bit confused because item C talks about a smaller fountain.

I think that's in a different location. Oh, okay. I beg your pardon. Scrap that.

Yep. We're talking—the fountain we're talking about now is in the duck pond, right? It is in the duck pond, yes. Yes. Shane?

Through you, Madam Chair, if I could just say the smaller fountain, there is a second fountain there that doesn't operate. It's not clean, it doesn't run. It's just unloved again.

And I suspect actually that we are confusing fountains with devices that are there to aerate the water so that it doesn't become revolting. So, and this is a fairly—it's probably been around for about 20 years, this idea of putting an aeration device in a body of water, because most bodies of water have some natural aeration capacity through movement, whereas artificially created ponds don't. And so some of these things aren't actually fountains; they're just spouts that move water around and reoxygenate it so that it doesn't turn into a big algal pit .

Michelle . Just a little bit of background. That site, that corner was looked at originally for a swimming pool , and in 1970 the current pond and fountain was commemorating when Queen Elizabeth

Visited in 1970. So that's when it was— Diamond Jubilee. Yep

I can remember the Diamond Jubilee. It was 1977, and I know this because I was in brownies.

No, no, no. This was opened in 1970, that pond. So they

Got in early. Yeah.

Right. I see. All right, back to the fountain. Graham.

Madam Chair, I don't have a problem with the fountain. I just question whether a larger fountain is going to be a monument that we really don't need. And certainly I'd be against a range of colours. I think that would actually take away from the historic significance of the— of the park in its own right, and I think we need to be mindful of that with anything we do. So I guess I'm not looking for— Or a spout to be similar to what's down in Canberra, for instance, and I think that would be pretty silly. So I really don't have any idea how big or otherwise, from the words that have been given.

Mary? Thanks, Danielle. I think maybe if we could get some costings around it, because, and some options, I guess. I'm still grappling a little whether the upgraded pump, in fact, makes it a bigger fountain, or just the fountain itself have to have more holes or something.

So I think where we are is that people are concerned that any fountain needs to be appropriate to the heritage listing of the park. There doesn't seem to be much support for colours, unless I'm misreading the room, but in order to determine what would be appropriate, we would need to see further designs. Is that a fair appraisal of where we are now? Excellent. As upgrade a pump versus whole new fountain

I

Think, is what I would need. Yes. Okay, thank you. And then I think C we can deal with fairly quickly, which is making sure it works seems to be the general gist of that. Madam Chair

Can I just— Yes, Gay? Exactly what you're saying, because that sentence, that item as it stands, doesn't make sense. Does that mean ensure it is operational? I think so. Yeah, I think we've just got a typo there. Okay.

And Duncan, there's any point in having a fountain that isn't operational, so yeah, turn it on.

Thank you. Let's move on to D in that case. So the fountain pump, and the recommendation is that that's screened with a visually appealing feature so that it doesn't detract from the park. Any comments on that

Mary? Yes, I do believe this has been asked for in the future. In fact, I recall asking for it in about 2018 to have some screening around that. And I don't know whatever happened. The former Director of Infrastructure had said that there was some sort of a plan to do that into the future, so I don't know what happened with that, but I fully support it having some sort of screening to take away from the sort of the ugliness, and also the utility box that's there could have a nice bit of clean-up as well. So, any

Advances on that?

Graham?

Madam Chair, yes, I'd like a little bit more information as to what this screening might be, whether it's actually a physical structure or whether it's landscaping or what it is before I'd be able to make a decision.

Sure, and I think we can take that on board.

The pond bridge is next. So the recommendation is for the bridge to the island and around the island to be arched with a white picket railing, or to— sorry, to have an arched white picket railing, and the tree in the middle should consist of a variety that flowers all year round, encouraging bridal and other forms of photography into the locality. Comments, please. Michelle?

Did you say that the bridge to the island and around the island?

Yes, that's what it says on the business paper. Yeah.

Do we have— do you have photos, Michelle, of what that island looked like? Yeah. It was smaller. Yep. So it's never had a fence or any other adornment. Thanks, that's useful, I think. Any other comments on that recommendation?

Graham? I was going to ask why do we need such a barrier? Is it for safety, for instance? And if it is for safety, why would you just do the middle pond area and not the perimeter? So just, I'm a bit confused as to... Why and what extent?

I think it was a recommendation that came to the Chamber from the community that the Chamber decided to go with.

Gay, is that you? Yes, ma'am

The tree . Are there any indigenous trees that flower all year round? Because I think it should be an indigenous, native to the area,

For heritage. Thank you, Shane.

I think there were some suggestions around a grafted grevillea. I mean, you've got a robusta stock, and then you've got perinda grafted at the top. And when pruned, they can grow into a big mushroom, which is quite nice, and they flower all year round. I mean, that was the suggestion. Grevillea is native.

Yeah, is it native to this area?

Can we have the discussion through the chair, because it's very bad for the tape and for the poor old minute secretary . I don't think it's endemic to the local area, no.

Robusta is silky oak.

Yep.

Native to

Queensland.

Yep, and the royal mantle or Grevillea perinda, I couldn't say where that comes from. It's a groundcover grevillea. I

Think it's a bred cultivar. Yeah, it's a cultivar. So it's not native to anywhere. It's native to a tissue culture lab, basically, or someone's breeding program .

Jan? I'm following up on Graham's point as to why we need a fence wherever we need it. It's very easy for parks with picket fences to look very twee, and that would be a very inappropriate form of Quade Park dating back to 1810. So I think we've got to be really careful in this that we don't end up with twee. If we need it, we need to know why, and we need to look at it appropriately then.

Okay, so is it— oh, sorry, Deb. I'd be very concerned about a fence of any sort, given the pond is rather a home for a host of ducks, and trying to keep a fence or anything else clean would be absolutely impossible.

Indeed . Right, and on that note, it looks like— so it looks like, is it fair to say that the committee needs to have more information about the need for a fence before, and that there are concerns about both the look— And the appropriateness of

The fence. Mary? I think also, because this did come up, and I know there's a later thing about having a fence on the island, and this did come up in when the island was used with the Blues Fest in about 2017, when people were camping on there and everything, and people were queering fencing. And I do seem to recall there was some issue around not having a fence where the water was down towards the water, both for safety reasons, because you would have to have one of such a height, it would be a barrier to seeing, you know, what was there, but also something to do with the actual operation of the whole pond. I may have that wrong, but I'm pretty sure there was an issue around it, even to put temporary fencing there.

The other thing is, I think a white picket railing on an arched bridge would just detract from everything else there and draw your eye to it. I don't know if you were going to have a— I've got no problem with an arch bridge. I think they're nice, but I think something more like a Monet arch bridge, perhaps with a simple fence rather than a whole picketed fence. But I don't know what the heritage requirements specifically around such a bridge in a state heritage park. So I think I agree with you, Madam Chair, we need some more information around that. Shane, did you have your light on?

Yeah, through you, Madam Chair, I just wanted to say that the feedback I had wasn't about safety. It was just visually appealing and trying to dress the park up a bit of civic pride, that sort of stuff, so not so much safety.

Okay, so do the staff have enough for that item?

Madam Chair, can I just ask a question in relation to that? Are there any conservation policies in the CMP for Macquarie Park regarding fencing? That might guide decisions regarding this sort of installation. I know that, Shane, you were talking about indigenous plantings. There's a reference to a conservation policy for preferring indigenous plantings around the Lake Precinct on page 31 of the plan of management, and that should be used to guide decisions about any landscape treatment, including any installations of fencing or signage or any devices to protect users of the park.

Would the staff like to comment on that?

I just have to take that one on notice to look through the document. Sure.

All right. Let's move on to the RSL cenotaph .

And there is some further information in your notes, I think. Any comments on this? This has been a lengthy process, that is. Where is it up to in the approvals process, Andrew?

So the adopted plan of management essentially adopted the location and the design of the RSL cenotaph that was provided by the Windsor RSL sub-branch. So it's basically located 10 metres from the western edge of the ornamental pond, and the design of it has to consider a number of factors, a number of criteria that are listed in the plan of management. There's obviously, in terms of the plan of management, we're awaiting the final sign-off from Crown Lands, which will allow then enable the finalisation of the development application process.

Okay. Comments on the cenotaph? Anyone? Graham? My

Initial comment, Madam Chair, is wouldn't this be located in one of the major view lines to and from the park area, particularly towards St Matthew's Church?

Yes, I suspect so.

I guess, and if that was the case, then I would, I guess, have to question that particular location. Jill? I think

It's a very practical solution. The people were gathering on the corner near the Boer War Memorial before, in the road area, and we have growing numbers of people for Anzac Day services, so I think it's a really good idea, and I don't think it will detract from the view corridor at all.

Shane? Through you, Madam Chair, I just wanted to say it's not unusual in site corridors across the world to see a feature or to have a feature, a singular feature in a view corridor. It might not take away, I don't think, particularly.

Thanks. Any other comments, Michelle? What height is it planned for ? I'm not sure, Andrew. Do we— do you have that in the—

Any other comments while Andrew looks for that

Cheryl? I've just got a photo of it here, or a printout of it. I think it's about five metres high,

Tall. Correct, yeah, five metres.

Thank you. And nine metres wide. Wide. Thanks.

Cindy? With the recent fires and flooding, the G bung trees have actually come back into our space in the Hawkesbury, or Londonderry is not— that's Penrith—but they're starting to sprout all out through Londonderry, Yarramundi. So they flower all the time. They have fruit, little fruit on them. The bark is medicine. It's a really good short stout tree. They're pretty. They really stand out in the bush with their bright green leaves and black bark. So just a suggestion for tree planting.

Thank you.

All right. Any other comments on the cenotaph? We'll move on to view corridors. Graham? I've got one, and I guess it's in regard to the existing cenotaph at the corner there. What's going to happen to that should this memorial minute go ahead? Does that mean that it becomes redundant? No, it will stay. It will stay where it is. Of course it'll stay where it is. No

It won't be redundant

But

As Jill has said, the larger—the new cenotaph will allow people to more safely and easily gather around it, currently spilling out onto the footpath, which is really problematic, and onto the road, which is problematic at various times. The

Corner monument is specific for the Korean War and the Boer War, I think, and they are reasonably small services that people commemorate.

Yes, but people do gather there for other commemorations, and they don't fit, is the short answer.

Okay. View corridors.

Madam Chair. Yes. In view of the size, I think Graham's right that the site corridor is going to more than be a feature. I think we should look at a reciting of the cenotaph somewhere else in the park.

I'm not sure how possible that is at this point, I think, Andrew.

Yes, so Council has adopted the plan of management that includes those details from the Windsor RSL. So essentially the dimensions of that, of the cenotaph and the location are locked in in terms of the plan of management.

Graham? So Madam Chair, with the approval of, or Council's approval of the plan of management, does that mean that that negates then going through to Heritage New South Wales to actually get approval on a state item?

I don't think—not necessarily, no. I think there's still referral processes that are part of that, yeah.

Well then, Madam Chair, wouldn't it be a good idea then for this plan of management, including this particular proposal, to be put to Heritage New South Wales to see if it's got legs?

I think we can certainly take that comment on board. I think, yes, that's a fair comment

Cheryl? Yeah. Within the business paper, there's a—on page 31 it says it refers to the McQuaid Park Conservation Management Plan of 2004, and there's a few—there's one, two, five points there,

Such as avoid introducing permanent monuments, memorials or artworks within McQuaid Park that have no direct compelling relevance to the site. Now I understand this would have certainly relevance to the site in terms of the other structures around it, but I'm just wondering if — Yeah, thinking of it in terms of its placement and size and so on, I think would be

Good. Okay, so is it fair to say that the recommendation from the committee is to get Heritage New South Wales's input into the appropriateness of the siting, particularly with respect to view corridors and the size and scale of the cenotaph, before council proceeds any further?

Is that fair? All right. Can we move on to view corridors? I'm getting quite conscious of the time. Some of these, I think, are going to be much faster. The recommendation for view corridors is to remove the necessary trees as outlined in the plan of management to construct two view corridors, one from the council chambers to St Matthew's Anglican Church and the other from Hawkesbury Valley Way to the church. Comments, please.

Michelle.

I'm not sure if any of these trees are part of the planting that took place in 1994. There was extensive tree planting by family descendants who paid a fee for a tree to be planted with a plaque, and if so, what would happen to those, possibly those plaques?

I think there are a few, from memory, there are a few trees that fall into that category, but there are more plaques that don't have trees that fall into that category, and that has happened with a number of those. Wilberforce Park is in the same boat, and that's an issue that's going to have to be addressed, I think, but we can certainly flag that. Any other comments? On the trees, Shane.

Through you, Madam Chair, there's also a lot of stumps that used to have plaques that aren't loved and very poorly treated. But also, there's a handful of laurels which aren't very loved, particularly in river communities. They cause riverbank erosion. So it might be prudent at looking at removing a couple of the handful of laurels that are in the view corridor. And I think if we're careful with a bit of pruning and selective tree removal to a minor point, it should open up view corridors nicely to the church.

Can I get the committee's— these are essentially new view corridors that are not part of the original plantings , and I think it would be useful for Council to have feedback on the proposal for these new view corridors. So, and my understanding is the idea that there's a view corridor from the civic space, i.e. this Council building, up to St Matthew's, the prominent church, and also from the view coming in from Hawkesbury Valley Way up to St Matthew's as

Well. Mary? Sorry, I thought I'd turned that off, but I just had a tree comment that if I think some of the trees that are proposed to be removed are ironbarks, is that correct? I don't know of all the trees that are to be removed. Possibly. I think there's a row of ironbarks there, and I think that there was something about— I just would like, if those trees have to be removed, both really specifically replaced trees, but also the reuse of the timber wherever possible for some monument— not monument, that's the wrong word— for some reuse. I had suggested it be, you know, that unfortunately, though the rotunda is staying as it is in the mall, but I had thought the building a new rotunda from it would have been a good idea anyway. Erin

Did you want to speak?

In relation to that, Madam Chair, if Council can't or do not wish to use the wood for its own purposes, and it's suitable, can our community come and salvage for cultural purposes for any

Tree that comes down? Sure, we can take that on board. Now, we haven't determined, I don't think, whether these trees will be removed at this point. And with my chair's hat aside, I can't see any valid reasons for removing perfectly healthy trees from our major park in the climate that we're about to experience. So I have to say I am not in favour of removing. Certainly, I'm happy to remove weed species, and that's a question that we are going to have to answer about several of our major parks. We have some significant weed species growing in Richmond Park that we're going to have to make some tough decisions about as well. There's a magnificent African olive tree. We've got one arm of Council frantically removing African olives, popping up all over the place, and the other one treating it with loving kindness and planting things underneath it.

And these are decisions that I think we have to make. I think the loss of a couple of catfaw laurels that could be well replaced with some decent native trees is probably useful, but I don't know that we should be removing native endemic species, given how hot it's becoming. That's the end of my rant from the chair. Gay?

I agree with you entirely. I didn't want to see trees removed. But I didn't see that I could do anything about it because it's already in the plan of management. But I do agree with you.

Could I get a comment, before we move on from this, could I get a comment as to whether the committee believes that it's appropriate to open up these new view corridors?

Madam Chair. I think it's an appropriate idea. When I was in the park discussing this with a community group, it hadn't blown out to removing loads of trees. It was just a small area, because sight lines don't need to be massive , and it was only entailing a few poplars, I think, was the only thing that at that point we were looking at. It was just so there was a sightline through to the church. It can be quite small. And while we're at it, I'm just putting this in to tell you, I don't think this is anything that we can take on board, but when I was in Britain and I went to Richmond Hill, they had sightlines right through to the countryside, and they'd actually cut a hole in the tree so that you could still get your sightline through, and it was very effective.

You could see the original sightline, but they kept the tree. So I don't think that—I think the sightline idea is a good idea, but I think it needs to be a very limited sightline.

Thank you, Jan. That's very helpful. I don't know that we'll be out cutting small round holes in any of our trees. I think our growth rate is a little bit faster than Richmond Hill. Deb?

I think that the concept of, well, view corridors, people tend to get a little—can get a bit carried away, and there could well be a tendency just to segment the park. When you've got a sort of corridor, virtually almost pathway, that goes there and then you've got another one over there, and the park tends to become more, yeah , just segmented. And I think that also is covered in I , where you're talking about pruning the undergrowth and the like to allow you to have some sort of view corridor without removing the trees.

Thank you.

Any more on the view corridors? And then I'm going to move on to Jill. Yes. Well ,

As a former conservation and land manager, I think that we could, if the trees are lost or they're not healthy, and we do need to put in the view corridor, others can be planted. I think we have to be practical about it and have a balanced view.

Thank you. Which is a nice segue to point H, which is further trees, plant more trees as compensation for the removal of others. Do we

Need to discuss this? We've got a recommendation of G-bungs, Michelle. Appropriate trees. Appropriate trees. Do you want to define appropriate,

Erin? Madam Chair, there is. It does cost a little bit more. You can pull up a tree and move it—and move it. So you're not actually cutting down a tree and replanting a tree. That doesn't make sense at all to me. So we should consider

Relocation if a tree needs

To be moved. I would do relocation rather than replanting, personally And it keeps, as a cultural level, it keeps the DNA of

The plant community.

Thank you. Any more for further trees? No, we'll move on to undergrowth. And does anyone need to add anything to that? I think we've discussed it when we've discussed site lines. Oleanders.

They're a noxious weed, aren't they?

No, they're not, but they are toxic if you eat a lot of them, or you burn them in a closed room with no other oxygen source. But you do have to eat quite a lot. So the thought that someone's going to go and poison themselves in Macquarie Park from the oleanders, if we don't get onto them, probably not going to happen. If you were planning on doing anyone away with the oleander leaves from Macquarie Park, I think you're probably out of luck.

I understood, Madam Chair, that it was the sap from the leaves on young children that is really the issue.

I think they can burn.

I think they are toxic, as I understood.

Yeah, right. Don't chew them. Children, don't chew them. All right, so they're slated for removal. I don't know that anyone's going to be too upset about those, although they do form, they do have a screening function, and they're tough as old boots. So finding something that will do the same job with absolutely no water could be quite difficult.

Fencing. The cable railing around don't worry, it's don't worry oval rather than don't worry field should be replaced with a period sympathetic low white post and rail type fence. Thoughts?

Shane?

Currently the thing we've got's pretty poor nick. It should be replaced with something.

Deb? Why white?

Exactly. That was my question. Is there an issue with white because it stands out? It stands out. It's not a heritage-type fencing. So not white. Not white. So you would prefer that it wasn't white?

To me, in a heritage area, you're better off having an absolute minimal fencing so you're not seeing it, rather than a white picket fence that hits you in the eye the minute you arrive.

Can I add to that?

Cindy?

Years ago, I think it was about 40 years ago, Port Macquarie had the problem where people were running into bins, park benches because they were dark. So at night time, when everyone was fishing, which is why councils decided to paint everything white so that you could actually see it

At night.

With lighting, so hopefully people don't smack into things.

Okay. But the one at Richmond is cream, isn't it? Yeah, not white. But that's not what this is. It's a picket fence. That's a picket fence. But a post and rail, I think, invites people to climb and sit on them, if that's what the idea is.

Do we want people sitting on it? Is that the plan? I don't know, but that's what happens. No, we don't want people sitting on it. So is it fair to say that the committee doesn't want the fence to be white because it will stand out too much, and questions the post and rail because people will sit on it and that's not durable? Is that the issue?

Is that fair enough? All right, let's move on to bins, appealing bins.

Keeping with the heritage theme of the park. I don't

Know,

I don't know what an appealing bin is.

Well, I think that was the hurling of stuff out the window. But is it fair to say that we want bins that fit in with the park? So there would need to be unobtrusive.

I'd like them to include recycling, myself.

Madam Chair, Graham. I would have thought that we need a holistic approach for this, one that actually goes into the township as well as not just the park. And here we are embarking on a livability project with all sorts of stuff happening there. Why can't we select something that would actually fit all avenues that need to be fitted?

Thank you, Graham. I think that's a very useful comment, and the staff can take that on board. Shall we move on from bins? Tables and chairs. So replacement, in keeping with the heritage, again, I think a holistic view that goes with the theme of the park. Is that fair? Yep. I don't think anyone's going to argue with replacing the broken ones. All right. Playground. New playground to replace the existing old one located next to the grandstand. Mary?

Thank you, Madam Chair. If that is to occur, and I've got no problem with it occurring, it would be wonderful if it could be one of those lovely natural playgrounds we saw at a conference that would fit in sympathetically as opposed to the bright coloured plastics.

Would the committee agree with that, that any park should not be made of natural materials? I guess it's the same as the fence. We don't want something that's obtrusive. Yep. Madam Chair,

It's a bit like the bins. We don't want yellow lids, so we don't really need bright—

So we don't want a bright plastic— Yeah. use of bright plastics in the park. Is that fair? Okay. Events. Create a calendar of potential events. I think the Heritage Committee's input on

Whether that would be an appropriate use of the park and whether the park could sustain that use would probably be the most useful information to come back to Council.

Madam Chair, does the CMP or the plan of management have the usability and the duration of the park listed , or is it a free-for-all, although it is a heritage-listed

Park? It would be. It's subject to Council's normal bookings . Andrew, do you want to comment?

Yeah, it's obviously, yeah, each event is subject to a process in terms of applying to Council for use of Council-owned controlled land. So, yeah, there's a process that's undertaken in terms of assessing such proposals, and requirements are provided to anyone that's approved for that. Yeah.

And then there's additional uses for, the more continual uses for sport, personal trainers, gym groups

That sort of thing. Chair, I'm just really conflicted that it's— you're talking about a heritage-listed park. Excuse my ignorance right now. Does the heritage listing— Have an impact on what events or what type of stuff over the council approval?

No, I think it's considered in the general council approval, and it's more about what the, particularly the heritage elements of the park can tolerate, in the same way that council makes decisions about, you know, whether the grounds can sustain the same level of sport and things. The fact that it's a heritage park doesn't mean that we use it any less. I don't think. I think, you know, that's part of living here and having these heritage, these Macquarie-era parks mean that they have to sustain routine community use in order to earn their keep as much as anything else does.

Madam Chair, I think we also have to keep in mind that when Ian and the landscape people did the management plan, the conservation management plan, nothing of the scale that we now have was envisaged in 2004. So I think that we have to keep in mind that

It's about scale.

Thanks, Jan. Can we move on from events?

Graham? Madam Chair, look, I think it's important to actually realise that some things really don't go with the heritage park. I think the plan of management actually indicated that passive recreation and sport were really the crucial activities that should continue. But I wouldn't have thought that car meets and markets are. .. Well, I think that they're just too rough on the surface and around the trees. And you certainly wouldn't want them on the ovals, so where else would they go? They'd probably need to go to the showground or somewhere more appropriate.

Thank you. I think that's useful. Okay

Jill? Yes. I'd just like to comment that Macquarie used to parade his troops in the park

There. He did. Fortunately, we have no need for anyone to parade their troops in the park currently, and let's hope it stays that way. Maintenance. Create a plan of maintenance discussing the number of staff required, the cost and outline, and whether a memorandum of understanding can be created with local men's sheds or community groups to assist with the work. Does anyone want to comment on this matter, on this item? Mary

I think, you know, I think that's definitely something that Council would no doubt have some sort of policy about such partnerships, whether they're feasible at all. We know that the interaction of community groups in public spaces has a specific requirements around it. So I don't know that, you know , it's a vexed thing where we want to have people in port and look after things, and it's not as easy as it just sounds.

Any more?

Madam Chair, I agree with Mary on that. I just want to expand a bit further to that the term maintenance, is that just clipping lawns and pruning trees, or is that also going to cover maintenance of the crook gun and other monuments? And are you then going to have experts who are suitably qualified to undertake that maintenance, doing said maintenance, or are you going to have, respectfully, people from the men's shed who may not have qualifications or experience in conservation practice undertaking maintenance work? I think that needs to be clarified.

Thank you. Okay, let's move on. Sorry, was that you, Gay? No. No? Okay, sorry.

Feasibility of public amenities in the vicinity of Don't Worry Oval. So I think the lack of public amenities throughout Windsor is an ongoing issue , and certainly the concern with the public amenities at McQuade Park is that they are only open when there's a sports game on because they're the people who hold the keys, basically. Council doesn't routinely open the public toilets, for example. Whether an additional lot of toilets could be installed

Looks like something that might be looked at, but again, that would be an additional structure in a heritage listed park and subject to consultation with the heritage officer, I would think. Michelle, and then Mary, and then Erin. I

Might have just missed the last little bit of that, but what about the toilets under the grandstand?

They are the main public amenities on site. And then there's also, I think there's some accessible in the bowling club as well, but only when the bowling club's open. So again, nothing's open if you just, you know, turn up late in the evening.

Mary. I think that that's the thing. They're not public amenities. That's the whole point. So people don't understand that on many of our sporting fields, they aren't actually public toilets. They are an amenity associated with that particular field, and so they're only open, and part of that is because within those facilities, the sporting groups that use them have equipment or they have a kiosk or whatever, and so they're only open when these people manning them. So they're probably, most town centres you go to will have a public amenity in their main park. So I guess the thing would be either trying to rework those ones that are in the grandstand to be publicly available to people all the time, or to somehow upgrade them so that they could work concurrently with whatever the arrangements are around the sporting.

But I do think that people pull up in a town at a park for that very purpose, you know, to access that. So I think it's something that really does need to be addressed, long overdue.

Erin, if we're going to do an upgrade with public amenities, can we please put a shower in

There? Yep.

That's publicly accessible . That is publicly accessible. Yep.

Shane?

Yeah, I just wanted to briefly say that the driving thing behind that is the problem with people repeatedly relieving themselves in the church area there at St Matthew's Church.

Yeah. Yeah, that is an ongoing issue that the church has raised with us, is that people then go in and use the cemetery as a surrogate toilet, Michelle.

And also that there are amenities near the tennis space , but they're closed. Yes. And there were showers, I believe, there at some stage that people used to be able to use, but it's locked when the— Yeah , because it belongs to the tennis. Because it belongs

To the tennis club. This is the trouble. And there's

Showers under the— Is it long to Council?

Yes, but it's leased out to the tennis. We don't control the building. So just as we don't control the opening and closing of the grandstand, and again there are showers under the grandstand, but they're used by the sports clubs, not by everybody else. But doesn't it belong to Council

Doesn't it belong to Council, the community?

It does, but it's not in the control of—

And they're not designated public toilets. The only public toilets in Windsor are Cable Street and Governor Phillip Walk. This

Is an ongoing problem for Windsor particularly, and Richmond, that we just don't have. And look, we've removed them from other parks in the past as well. The toilets were removed from Wilberforce in the late 90s. So we do have a paucity of public toilets, and we have no public showers. Right.

Madam Chair, yes, I'd just make one other comment there. I would have thought that that not necessarily be allied to the don't worry section of the park , but you could actually put a successful toilet, I believe, close to where the bollard greens and that are, in that little area behind, or down a little bit further down from the car park. It's got a mix of buildings and styles and structures and that there, and another one probably wouldn't hurt in that location, rather than trying to put it up in an open space

That would also better serve the children's playground if that's replaced in the same location. There are often big users of public toilets, or it's the thing that you use to pick where a public toilet might be. Cheryl?

Just a bit of a left-field question, I think, but the current amenities in the park, which are for the use of sporting groups, so is council responsible for the cleaning of them, or are the sporting groups responsible for who's cleaning them? Megan, do you know?

I think the sports clubs clean them. Okay. Because they're the ones who have access to them. Thank you. Okay, we've discussed the Crup Gun briefly. I'm keen to move on because we are now getting quite late. So we've got some more information about the gateway sign. We've got further stuff about the gateway signage, which is largely part of the wayfinding and signage plans that have come to this committee before. So I'm going to move past that unless anyone has anything pressing to say on it. And then the final section of this is the signage and fencing at and around the Catholic Burial Ground opposite the council chamber. So that's not actually part of McQuaid Park. It's on the other side of Hawkesbury Valley Way. Does anyone have any comments they want to make about that area?

Madam Chair. Yes.

This is the ground that has no fencing whatsoever, and people can walk straight into it from the footpath.

That's right. Well, part of it is almost down on the footpath, in fact.

Almost down on the road, some

Of it. Yes. Yes.

Well, my thought is that it should at least have some fencing around it.

Okay, thanks. Michelle?

There are some photos from the 1960s that show a low post and rail on the George Street side, but most of the other—there aren't images of any fencing other, Jan .

Yeah. Okay, thanks. That's useful. Could you send those photos through to the staff, Michelle? Thanks. All right. Any further comments on Macquarie Park before we move on?

Thank you very much for your input. That is really, really helpful for the staff. Thank you , and a fine illustration of the usefulness of the Heritage Committee.

All right. The next item is—

Mr Hawkesbury

Timber Slab Barn.

I'm sorry, thank you, we are. So the recommendation was that the committee provide input and advice. So the recommendation would be that that advice be forwarded to Council, and that would be one. And the second would be that Council erect a monument to facilitate truth telling of equal value and impact. And I've

Lost the rest of the words, but I think they're on the record.

Can I also add, in collaboration with the local community, so that we lead that delivery? To be led by? Well, we have the majority of input into how it looks for respectful. Just say that it's culturally safe, appropriate and

Respectful. Of course. Does someone have those words? Because I must confess I don't.

Do people need to hear the words to vote? Or are you satisfied with what will come out of this? Cheryl

Your lights on. I just wanted to say that I strongly agree with this proposal, and it would address the... I noted when I read the plan of management that on page seven it states, The park, however, provides no reference point or tangible links to this place as Country of the Darug people. When I read that, I thought that that just sort of was an incredibly significant statement or an admission. So I think that Erin's proposal, and this would really go some way to addressing it.

Thank you. I think that's very valuable information. Can I ask too that when this comes to Council, that those of you who feel strongly about this consider speaking in the chamber on the issue. I think it could be quite a significant moment for Council and a moment of healing.

Certainly a moment of some truth telling. Okay, is everyone happy with both sections? I'm sorry, we don't have the exact words of the second point, but is everyone happy with both of those recommendations to Council? Thank you. We'll now move

On to the Timber

Slab Barn study.

So I have a conflict of interest, and I'll hand the chair over to Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you.

And Graham has a conflict as well.

Are you staying? Or are you going? I'll stay and be quiet. Good luck with that.

Rudeness. I want to remind you that you're on Council Lyons-Buckett

I am allowed to make that joke. No, I didn't know how it operated in this committee with people coming or going. Okay, Hawkesbury Timber Slab Barns Update Study, something that I'm sure everyone's welcoming with open arms. Just before we get into discussion, I actually had a question around clarity within this, which hopefully someone can answer, because there's no designated timing around when these barns were built and what it actually includes. So can someone give me an idea of whether there's any definitive sort of time zone that relates to the structure of the barn?

Graham might be able to help me out here, but my understanding is that there is no specific date frame that we're looking at. We've had two seminal studies done in 1991 and 2010 by Graham Eds and Associates and others, helping Graham Eds in that situation, and that was the basis on which we worked off in terms of this update study. But my understanding is we have some modern reconstructions that form part of the study, but I'm open to be—

Okay, do you want to clarify that, Graham? Because when you say reconstructions, I'm taking that to mean that they were existing and they've been rebuilt. The reason I'm asking is there are a number of modern slab barns, one which is on my place, but they're quite modern. So just to clarify that, please.

Sure. Well, to answer, it's quite complex. And should I say at the outset that most of these slab barns are very different and quite often quite unique. We have documentary evidence when flood events occurred to actually indicate that probably some of the oldest barns are certainly pre-1816. So we are looking at some very early barns, and they're particularly located on the Hawkesbury River, around Freemans Reach, and a few elsewhere. But barns continue to evolve in different forms right through the 19th century and into the early 20th century. There is normally a slab barn associated with some of the returned soldiers and the soldier settlements. And then, of course, there are relocations where barns have been taken up and moved and put somewhere else, and they may be historic barns.

And there are others, of course, as you rightfully suggested, Mary, that are a reconstruction with new material or reusing old material from other things. So I guess that's really the range, is from Australia's beginnings to now.

Okay, that's wonderful. Thank you. And I'm assuming that the 38 additional barns have emerged in that respect, that they've just been discovered as things have arisen. So it says there's 38 additional ones from those old studies. So we know some have probably fallen down or been removed, but there seems to be 38 additional barns. Okay. Thank you for that. All right. Well,

I could actually add to that, if you wish, to say that this is not a definitive list by any means, or a definitive number. There is actually one that we just became aware of out at Gross Vale that is in association with a slab cottage. We don't know anything about that one. And these are actually going to pop up all over the place. Some are in subdivisions and on properties which aren't seen from the street.

Fascinating. That's amazing. I just think what a journey of discovery to be working on that. So we've got a recommendation here. I'm not sure, did Christopher or Andrew want to speak to this before people discuss it? I think

That's okay, Madam Chair. I just wanted to briefly say it's important to see it in its context as well for all of us to understand it, and also my position. So my position is a relatively new position, and before I arrived, there'd been a number of studies that have been done, significant studies like our Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Study. Obviously these earlier studies, 1991 and 2010, and there's also been the Hawkesbury Community Heritage Study as well. So they all tie into one another in various ways. But in terms of what I could push forward in my new role, which is, it is important to say, is heavily operational. Strategic, if you could see a pyramid, strategic is one part of that pyramid, and a lot of the work I do is operational work.

So, and I'm happy to... I know I look at a number of phases here, and there've been two talks where I've talked about all the work, all the variety of work that I do. I won't do that now. Obviously we don't have time, but it's important to understand that, and that's why I mention that, because.. . For me to push forward strategically, I see two important studies that I can deal with , and that's the timber barn study, which I put together a brief with approval from my manager to kick off. And the other one is obviously the community heritage study as well, which will have to be done in-house given our constraints financially. And the amount of work that we had to do, which I didn't envisage when I put together the brief for this, meant that it's taken away from me progressing up till now in the potential items work that we discussed with working groups and other things.

But that amount of work has tapered off, and I can now see us being in a position to progress the potential items work that we are all keen to see happen. And it's important to note that there will be a number of potential items coming out of this study in terms of heritage items because what kicked off my interest in this, and there'd been a number of recommendations from the 1991 and 2000, or the 2010 study that hadn't been progressed, and predominantly those recommendations related to pursuing heritage listings for a number of these significant barns. And we've had a number of events which has really pushed this to the surface, our flood events, and we've had a significant barn in Freemans Reach which basically was kneecapped because it hadn't been heritage listed.

The chance to get funding to help it was basically removed because it hadn't been heritage listed. So that just showed the significance of these sorts of studies to happen.

Thank you so much. That's really valuable information, and I'm assuming everyone in here is a bit across it, maybe more than I am, but. It’s great to see, and that was very unfortunate about that one in Fremantle’s Reach, of course. Does anyone have any points they wish to raise around the update? Jan?

I just want to say that it’s important we realise in all this that these are iconic to this area, that you don’t find barns like we’ve got here in other areas, and they relate directly to the history, so they’re quite iconic for this district. Wonderful. Very valuable.

Michael, is yours on or not?

No, but I can, Madam Chair. Oh

No, I

Can’t see it. I do have a question, through you, Madam Chair. The report and the executive summary talks about looking to list the 38 additional barns considered to be of state and national heritage significance. Are there any that are of local significance, and is the report proposing to list them only if they are of national or state significance ?

Through you, Madam Chair, we’re certainly looking at local listings. The 38 was 38 additional found on top of the 106 that were originally found in the 2010 study. So it’s not necessarily that there’s going to be 38 state or national listed ones. It’s just we’ll wait for the study to come to its close before we know what’s recommended, but I assume there will certainly be local listings to come out of those.

Thank you. Graham? Yes,

Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I just wanted to highlight the importance of recognising these things. I call them things, but they’re really lovely structures. They’re really important timber technology, and we don’t really recognise sufficiently, I don’t think, in Australia, the hardwood species that we do have that these structures would have been built around. I guess the disappointing thing for me that's come out of this study is that the lack of recognition prior from this council, and that's something obviously that's going to be addressed. But I just highlight some information that I can pass on that came from Heritage New South Wales when that barn that Christopher Reeves talked about at Freeman's Reach that is disappearing into the river.

On behalf of the owners, I actually made representation to Heritage New South Wales, and because it had no state heritage listing and it didn't even have any local listing, they couldn't, within their criteria , give any emergency funding to even stabilise that building. So the owners did actually do it themselves. And further to that, we thought, well, let's get an interim heritage order on so that these things are at least recognised and it might give us a guernsey to get some money for these people. And we got a disgusting letter back basically to say that they couldn't consider it because it wasn't actually damaged through development , that it was damaged through other means. And then they had the hide to say at the end that the owners should consider dismantling this barn and then moving it to a higher location.

Like , how stupid is that? And so I guess really what I'm trying to bring forward is how important heritage listing is of not only barns, but other heritage items within this council area. And I guess I applaud council for actually going to this next step, but it's just been a long time coming.

Thanks, Graeme. Long overdue, and hopefully it's going to

Progress forward now, Deb. Just a sideline through you to Graeme. The building you're talking about at Gross Vale, I've just spent a couple of days on the history on that. I shall be able to get it to you

Pretty easily.

That was the new one that we were talking of, yeah.

Okay, that's great. And just with reference to the hardwood timbers, which I think is something really amazing that we have, I actually today, when I was reading some of the books that I've got around the various slab barn books and so on, an incredible book that my late father-in-law had from 1919, which is about timber and its economies in Australia, and it's got the amount of species of hardwood that we have in this country, which I suspect we don't have trees of all of them left now. It was just such a fascinating thing to look at and to read, and to know what people had built out of these hardwoods, which of course anyone who's a builder knows how difficult they are to work with. Any further discussion on this, or we may move the recommendation, which is to note the update of the study and provide further feedback when presentations are made at a future meeting.

So the report, once it's complete, will be coming back to this committee, I expect prior to going to council, I would think. Yes. Yes.

Yes, Mayor. Okay,

So someone to move that. Thank you, Jill. And Michelle second that. Thank you. Is everyone— yep, all good. Thank you. Passing back to you, Danielle.

Thank you. So we move now to the Windsor Bridge artefacts working group meeting, which met for the first time on Monday, which was very nice, with some examples of artefacts as well. It was a large and lively meeting. Andrew, do you want to speak to this?

Yes. So Thomas Scurf, our new cultural services manager, has set up this working group. It's obviously responding to a council resolution to look at the best possible means of conservation, interpretation and display of the old Windsor Bridge artefacts. So had hoped that Thomas would be able to join us tonight to give us a bit of an update from the first working group. But basically, the schedule is to meet regularly and to be reporting, I guess, the recommendations from the working group to either the October or November Heritage Committee meeting, in terms of where the working group feels with respect to those artefacts.

Thank you. So several members of this committee are also members of that working group, as well as a number of other community members representing several of the groups interested in Thompson Square and the old Windsor Bridge. Expect to see some revised terms of reference. There was concerns that the terms of reference focused too strongly on the bridge rather than on the Windsor Bridge replacement project and its impact on, and the area that it impacted on. So those terms of reference will be expanded to include the area covered by the Windsor Bridge replacement project, which will take into account Thompson Square, the old bridge, and also the areas on both sides of the river and the waterways.

We were, we had a presentation detailing the extraordinary number of artefacts that were recovered, and what is considered now to be probably the most significant site for Aboriginal archaeology, an extraordinary array of materials dating back, I think it was around 7,000 years, Erin? We got

To 30,000

And it's quite a disturbed site, and it appears that that's very deliberate, the original disturbing of the Aboriginal archaeology at that site, the whitening of the landscape, if you will. And Erin made the point that we had really barely scratched the surface, if we've only gone down that far, but an extraordinary array of material recovered, and then another really large collection of bits and pieces from the very early days of the colony. One of the things that we didn't talk about was that first contact period. My understanding is that there's a very significant first contact period where you can see the Darug people's adaptation to the use of colonial materials, glass and things, into the things that they made for everyday use as well.

And that's another quite significant thing that's come out of that dig. We heard a bit about the boat, which can't be stored in the Hawkesbury because we don't have a suitable tank to hold it in; it has to remain wet. Lots of lovely artefacts that you can see in the museum, and then a large discussion about what to do about the bricks and where the bricks are. And so the staff have taken quite a bit of direction from the working group about finding out some further information about where those bricks are, how they can be stored, how they might be displayed, how they may be used. There's thousands of them, some of them in good condition and some of them not, and also a lot of sandstone that council has stored.

As well. So, lots, I think still a lot of questions from the working group before we have any more answers about what we should do with the rest of the stuff that we've got from this really highly significant site and the ongoing care, maintenance and display and use of it as an educational resource. Does anyone want to add anything to that?

Cindy

Is it possible to get a building to store these artefacts in and charge people $10 entry?

Well, at the moment there, we did have a lengthy discussion on the previous Heritage Committee with Transport for New South Wales, trying to get them to stump up for a building, rather than us allocating an already used section of Council's museum to display these, and no answer was the stern reply. So I think our chances of getting a building is really slim. Erin, were some of those artefacts, because you were heavily involved in that site work, were some of the artefacts put back onto

The— To my knowledge

Some of them were reburied

But I also know that some were held for cataloguing and recording as well. I'm just not exactly sure what's happened to them.

Okay. So is that something else that needs to be followed up? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So we can forward that. Honours, that question honours well, I think. Graham

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. Look, my question is really, I guess, one relating to the terms of reference, and I think the terms of reference which the committee discussed really differs widely from Council's resolution, and I wonder if Council needs to provide another resolution or whether we just continue on a different terms of reference. How does all of that work out?

So the terms of reference thing is relatively new, is my understanding, and I think my understanding of it, and I'm happy to be corrected, is that our suggestions for an amended terms of reference will come back to Council to be ratified, and then we'll operate under whatever's determined from those. But I don't know that they would change radically from what we've suggested. It's not possible to separate the bridge artefacts from the Thompson Square artefacts, so I don't think that it will be, that we can unpick that . Cheryl

Yeah, while I think it's really useful to put the bridge and the entire Thompson Square site and all of the artefacts, to consider them all, I do think that the initial resolution was about the bridge artefacts, or from the bridge itself, and in the business papers there was actually a list of particular elements of the bridge, being Lewis bolts, pieces of cast iron, curved bricks that were part of the caissons, and various other elements that were— The bridge, and my understanding of the initial resolution was that that was what the resolution and the working group was about, because the actual list is in the business papers. So whilst I, you know, in the meeting on Monday was in agreement with the broad focus, I do think that we need to be very careful that we don't lose the bridge in the breadth that the terms of reference have now encompassed.

I think that the significance of the bridge, the heritage significance of the bridge as an engineering feat and all of the history of the bridge, as well as the community, the whole community engagement with it over such a long period of time, I think it deserves to be a focus in this working group.

Thank you. I think that's very valuable input. Graham, did you have your light on again?

No. Good. Okay. So I think that's very helpful, Cheryl, and I think you're right. And I think one of the problems with the bridge is that a lot of the stuff that we have is quite big and bulky, and it's very hard to do something with it, where it's much easier to pop something into the museum and call that good, you know. And I think what you've raised is a really useful caveat around where we should go with this, because we will lose this stuff if we don't act to protect it. And certainly we need to talk about the significance and the significance of that period around the— Around the Windsor Bridge replacement project for the Hawkesbury community, and I think that's where we're hoping to go. Madam Chair,

I would like to just mention one other point, and sorry for taking so long with this. I would have thought that Council could be bold enough to actually make representation to the Federal Government to actually get some money to House and actually present these in the best possible way that they can. Like, this has got to be one of the most significant sites in Australia for both Aboriginal occupation and also European occupation coming together, not necessarily in a comfortable way, but all of these stories need to be told. And it needs more than just the museum that exists now to actually bring that to light, I think.

Okay, so if people are in agreement, what we've got here, the recommendation is that we receive and basically that we note the update. Would you like that to be a more fulsome recommendation that perhaps said, note the update with respect to the formation of the working group,

Ensure that the focus remains on

The interpretation, the conservation interpretation and display of elements of the old Windsor Bridge, and that Council makes representation. Or that council recommends that council makes representation to the federal government for money for this

Display . Both levels of government.

Both levels of government. Are people happy with those words,

Cheryl? Just in relation to that, and I've just sort of got two more points, if that's okay. But in relation to making representations to the state government, part of the original resolution in council was to investigate the old police station site as a possible site for display and, you know, storage and so on. Now, whilst that might be too much of a long shot, I mean, it's been vacant for a very long time. It's fairly close to Thompson Square. So I do think that it would be great if council could at least, you know, investigate, try that as a strategy. And the other thing I just wanted to say is that goes back to what you were saying just earlier, Madam Chair, is that in terms of the whole process of coming to terms with and making decisions about what happens to the artefacts, the elements of the old Windsor Bridge, I think the actual process of the community engagement in that will be a healing process, which this community really needs.

So I just think that it's really important that that has a central focus in the working group and the terms of reference.

And I think that's a really useful observation. It was certainly something that I was quite aware of on Monday afternoon. I think there was still a lot of feeling in that space, and that's something that we are going to have to be... Mindful of as we work through this, and sometimes that can be a more time-consuming process than is initially anticipated. Jill?

I think we need a purpose-built facility for something like this. It would be really quite fascinating to have a purpose-built facility with all these things.

All right. So, what I think—we're probably at the point where it's more useful to let the working group continue to work on what it wants to do about where things go and the interpretation, but I don't think that precludes us hitting up the other tiers of government for some funding, rather than asking them specifically at this point. So I'm going to stick with those initial three things, which is note the update, ensure that a focus remains on interpretation of the bridge, the old bridge, and makes representation to both levels of government for funding to house and present the artefacts from the Windsor Bridge replacement project. Is

That fair, Mary? I think so, yes, Madam Chair, but I think that if that was part of a council resolution, I have a feeling there may have been a letter written about the old police station and we got a response, so we still should persevere.

Currently the chair—so the manager of cultural services is following up on the police station, so we'll just park that there and come back to that, I think, when we've got some better ideas of where the working group thinks that we're headed, but it never hurts to ask the state and federal government to come up with some money, I think. Jan?

Madam Chair, I think one of the important things for me that came out of that meeting was that up till now there's only been— A very small interpretation made of the artefacts. And there's also a very big need still to catalogue where everything is, because we don't even know where some things are and get lists. But the other part that came out of it was this need to actually interpret. And I think that came out really, really strongly, that we need to be then going on to do a real interpretation of what's been found.

Thank you.

So if we make sure that point two includes the words interpret, and we keep that in mind as we work through on that working group, hopefully we will continue to cover that. Are people happy with that as the motion going forward? Could I have a mover? Cheryl and Jill, thank you.

All right.

Madam Chair, I'm sorry, I do apologise, I have to go.

That's all right, you can go. I'm very

Sorry

Thank you for that, and apologies for having to leave early.

All right, let's move on now to the Thomas James Bridge Conservation Management Plan. Christopher?

Thanks, Madam Chair. Just a few brief words. So , in talking about this, I recognise that this structure that we're referring to would have been an affront to our First Nations people when it was constructed as part of a 250-kilometre road going through that area. And having said that, I just wanted to point out , so this site was pretty much hidden and everyone would know about it, and there's obviously signs there that said it was the oldest bridge still in use in mainland Australia. But from a heritage listing point of view, it's pretty well much in a buffer zone of a World Heritage listing, and no one paid much attention to it till an event happened where it was damaged, and the locals rang the Heritage New South Wales and they chased up council and said, What's going on?

And then council had to work out, is it in its land or not, in its area? So, if you can imagine the road goes—obviously no one, I can't describe it with a diagram, but Central Coast Council has, if you can imagine a line going through the road, Central Coast Council is the northern part and we have the southern part. So any work that we pursue in terms of heritage listing will have to work with Central Coast Council. But from a colonial perspective, it is obviously a very significant structure in terms of the construction, which was cutting edge at the time with dry stone walling.

Other than that, I suppose the important thing that came out of this is we have a conservation management plan that Council had to do to organise the work in a proper manner. And since we've got that in our possession, we can now pursue a heritage listing for this site. And the conservation management plan recommends that it be pursued at a local, state and a world heritage listing. That's what it's recommending. So there's a bit of work to be done from this. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Questions or comments? Anyone? Michael.

Madam Chair, through you, a question for Christopher. How is the heritage listing to be defined? Is it over the LGA boundary? And is it going to be inclusive of the road deck and the stone buttments , or is it going to be a broader curtilage to that? How would that be defined? And is there part that would be on the Hawkesbury LEP and therefore part that would need to be on the Central Coast LEP? And what is, or has there been any discussions about that to date with Central Coast Council on listing the site?

Not as yet, Michael. I don't have answers to any of your questions. It's to be worked out. Yep.

Any further questions or comments? Chair. Yes. I understand it was part of the Great North Road originally . Yes. And why it's not been included in that world heritage listing then is curious, I think. Surely they stumbled across it as they came off the ferry. Who knows.

Certainly work is, we had a community, a couple of community briefings on Monday about the rebuilding of the bridge, which is a really extensive project because the road underneath it is basically, the land, the ground underneath it is basically collapsing and needs to be put back. So it's quite a significant amount of work. Probably the only good thing to come out of that landslip will be the heritage listing. I think it's, Council does have funding for it. Is it, I think it's from the state or federal? Anyway, it's from flood recovery funding. It's not rates. God, we'd be destitute if we had to do all of this with rates. But it's a really significant body of work, and the main concern is to maintain access for residents throughout the project.

Worst case scenario now looks like there'll be two access periods a day, but we also have a plan that we hope will be signed off by Transport for New South Wales to build a temporary bridge that people can use all the time. So particularly coming into summer, it's quite concerning if that— it's a really long way around and also a lot more traffic on St Albans Road, which is not the greatest of structures in itself. So

I think we've just got to—

So the recommendation in the business paper is that we look at, is that we recommend that Council consider the preparation of a listing on the LEP, the State Heritage Register, and on the old Great North Walk World Heritage listing— Great North Road, sorry— World Heritage listing. Is everyone happy with that? Could I have a mover and a seconder, Jill and Erin, thank you.

All right, there's some lovely pictures there of some lovely red plastic siding.

Heritage red plastic siding that we hope we can do away with shortly. Right, next is the discovery of a brick barrel drain in Pitt Street, Windsor. Christopher.

Through Madam Chair, so some local people, there have obviously been some significant flood events, and one of those events was happening obviously in South Creek. It revealed, by taking off some soil and other things, it revealed what appeared to be a convict-built brick barrel drain. We don't have a lot of information. The locals did some research, but there's obviously more research to be forthcoming. We approached New South Wales Heritage to see if they would be interested in investigating this. They recommended that we do it ourselves and pay for an archaeologist to come and do the work. And they also recommended, as an easy fix for any future flood events, that we put some soil, put a membrane down and put some soil on top of that drain to protect it.

So we didn't see that it was a useful strategy in this situation. And what we did is go back to our local people and said, Look, we need obviously some additional information. Would you be willing to do some research into that, which is happening at the moment?

And obviously, as we get more information, there may be potential to state list this if it occurs to be of that importance. But we obviously, the information is the key. We don't have any funds identified to do that work, so we really are relying on others. to come up with information for us that we may be able to use.

Thank you. Any

Comments, Jan?

Madam Chair, I'd just like to say that quite apart from even before the drain was found, I, as part of my PhD that I'm doing at the moment, had reason to look into this area. I was very interested in the brewery, and there has been some discussion about whether this drain is related to the brewery. So following best history practice, I went to the earlier sources, and the earliest source for the brewery location and the measurements of the brewery land relates to me and the survey in 1809. Now this is before Macquarie was even in Australia. Me and his surveying around the village of Greenhills. He did further surveying in January 1811 relating to the brewery and the bridge, and that is before the town is started also because they were just getting started on marking it out.

So all this is pre-McQuarrie, and he , in typical surveyor form, wrote notes about how many degrees west and how the distances and the number of linkages. And I have a surveyor engineer friend who's very into this sort of stuff, and he has translated it for me because it's almost impossible to read in such shorthand. He has translated it. Not only that, he has mapped it for me, and this comes from the original survey in 1809 and 1811. So it's really important. I'm sorry I can't bring you all a copy because it's part of the PhD and until I hand it in, I need to keep that. But what I have found is that — The survey shows that, and none of this is really accurate on the old maps because even though Meehan is surveying, they're not accurate in terms of today's type of surveying.

So there's always some discrepancy. But the brewery was on the eastern side of

Pitt Street when it goes, the directions are hard because they're not really direct points of the compass. When you go down Pitt Street before it turns to the right, to the left,

The brewery is on the far end of that. It is not near where this drain is. And it's been very interesting in mapping this and trying to work it out. But the brewery was built in 1806, and I have proof that it's still there in 1820.

Now, 1820 is when the courthouse was built, and the brewery land was given to Andrew Thompson and then came indirectly back to the government, but it's totally separate to the courthouse land. So you've got two allotments on that Pitt Street length, and the brewery is on the far end towards Pitt Town, and the drain is further up in the vicinity of the courthouse. And I cannot see how, when Thompson owned it. And then the Crown land remained and was used for the courthouse. The interconnection, and a lot of the maps, not all of them, because the one on our map here shows the brewery on the

Land of the courthouse, whereas a lot of other maps show it on the far end, which is where I believe it was, on

This end of the land. So I have all that in proof, and I will put it together, and I have given some of it to Christopher. But it's really important when you're looking at historical material that you take the earliest possible references that are reliable, and that's what I've done. And it's come out to me like there are two separate blocks, and the drain is on the courthouse block . So I think we have to keep that in mind, that it appears on the information I have to date, and I'm putting in the to-date proviso because I'm still researching it, but it appears to date that there are two separate sites, and the drain isn't directly related to the brewery.

Right. Well, the mystery continues. We await your PhD, Jan.

So I think at this point we're just noting this. Okay, we're providing insight or suggestions. So I think we've received some input from... From Jan , and we await further research, I think is where we are. Is everyone happy with that? Do we need a mover and a seconder for that? I don't think we've actually, I don't think we're moving anything. We're opting to, we do need to move something. All right. I've run out of words. It's quarter past seven. Someone move. Do you know what we're moving, Tracey? No? Erin will move it, whatever it is. Yeah, that we're moving, that we've received information from Jan about the possible

Location of the brewery and its impact on where the drain might have emanated from.

Madam Chair, I think it's important that we have information about the brewery from the original survey.

Okay. So the recommendation is that information be taken from the original survey and that the committee consider further information as it comes to light. How's that sound?

Right. Erin, are you happy to move that ? Oh

It was Jill. Sure, Jill can. Jill can. Can I have a seconder, please? Thank you, Jan. Right. Next.

Okay, 3.1.6, Local Heritage Assistance Fund minor maintenance and conservation works update. Andrew.

So just very quickly in terms of this one, this is a report on the outcome of last financial year's Local Heritage Assistance Fund, which was obviously informed by advice that was provided by this Heritage Committee and also the previous Heritage Advisory Committee. So last year's financial year program, we actually were able to approve 25 applicants, which is the record number under the program, and we've incrementally been able to garner increased interest and participation in this assistance fund. So there's a total of just short of $50,000 grant funding as part of that program, the bulk of which was from Council, with $5,500 that came from the New South Wales Government to support the assistance fund.

But through those 25 applicants, it actually delivered $265,000 worth of work to locally listed heritage items, which is a great outcome. And just also alluding to the fact that this year's financial program has actually opened for applications now, and we're going through the process of providing letters to all locally listed heritage properties, and applications are open until September.

Comments? Anyone? Jill? I think they're all good projects.

I think many of them have been excellent projects. I feel compelled to comment that $2,000 is not what it used to be, and that it's really not very much money to do very much at all. Anyone who's bought paint recently will be well aware of how much paint you don't get for $2,000, and you've still got to get it on the wall. And I note also that the whopping $5,500 from the New South Wales State Government is an amount that has not increased for at least as long as I have been chair of this committee, which has been since 2016. I don't think it's increased for more than a decade, in fact, and I think that might be information

Worth sending back to council and council commenting on, firstly to the State Government via the local member, but also potentially through Local Government New South Wales. We have a conference coming up later this year, and we can put motions forward to LG New South Wales that I would consider a recommendation that heritage funding firstly be increased to councils, but also be paid on a pro rata basis based on the number of heritage items and the density of those heritage items in particular LGAs, for us to get a similar pittance to an area that has very few heritage items remaining, and a much larger rate base seems quite mean-spirited, frankly, and certainly is doing nothing to help conserve heritage that's held in private hands across the state, certainly not across the Hawkesbury. That's the end of my rant. If anyone would like to have one of their own, feel free. Jill.

I think it's longer than that. I can remember, I've been in local government 24 years now, and I can remember it was always $2,000, both when I was on the Hills Council and this council.

Yes, and $2,000 used to actually buy you something. These days, it doesn't. Graham?

Madam Chair, I recall that we had this conversation last year and probably the year before, and asked Council to actually look into having the fund increased from Heritage New South Wales. Do we know if that occurred, number one?

Certainly, I think we fed it to the local member. Council always fed it to the local member. Did the staff approach the Heritage Office, Andrew?

Yes, and the outcome is that the current funding that's available has remained unchanged.

Madam Chair, the only other thing, we have discussed before that other council areas do actually have a rate impost on their community , which actually goes directly to heritage conservation , and I just wonder whether Council might consider that.

Okay, so it sounds like we have the beginnings of a motion. Firstly, to receive and note the information contained within the report, and I think it would be useful to note that 216,000 — I'll put my glasses on for the rest of it — $216,865.41 was the contribution from applicants to the fund. I think that would be helpful to be made clear. So that would be the first point. The second would be that Council notes that the $2,000 contribution from Council now has vastly reduced power in terms of facilitating conservation, and that Council should consider increasing the size of the fund, and that point 3, that the New South Wales Government's contribution of $5,500 has remained unchanged for many years and is inadequate, that Council make representations to the State Heritage Office and the local member regarding an increase to this fund, and that that fund...

The government make considerations to funding heritage-rich areas better , and that Council considers a motion to the local government New South Wales recommending the same as point three. And five, that Council consider a special rate for heritage conservation.

Is that—

Madam Chair, could I comment in your point two where you said that $2,000 is not enough. I wouldn't like Council to say, well, let's make it $4,000, but we'll give it to half the number of people. Yes

So what would you suggest instead ?

Just say that Council increase the size of the heritage fund so that it's able to better support conservation.

I'm sure that would be an honourable thing to do.

All right.

Madam Chair, if I can add to that. Sure. I think preempting the anticipated number of new heritage items that are going to come out of the new heritage study, I think it's imperative that Council preempts that and ups the available funding because there will be—we already have an oversubscription to the punitive amount that is currently available. There will be a very large anticipated interest in any incentives, financial or otherwise, by any new listed properties. And I think preempting that, we need to be putting our best foot forward and making it available as a way of incentivising heritage listing as well, so that there is a range of incentives to offer to people when their property is nominated for listing. So

How about that point two says that Council increase the size, the committee recommends that Council increase the size of the Heritage Assistance Fund to better support heritage conservation and

Incentivise heritage listings across the LGA. I don't want to frighten the Council with the idea that a whole lot of heritage listings would mean that they needed to come up with lots more money, so it's a balancing act

I'm not in stealth mode really because this is on tape and everyone can listen to it, so there's a flaw in my stealth.

Is everyone happy with that as a recommendation? Could I have someone move that, please? Michael and Graham. Thank you. Next.

State heritage listing of Singleton Mill site, Currajong. Some very good news, Andrew.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So just to outline that the application for state listing of the site at Currajong was completed in December of 2022, and that obviously stemmed from our application that was made in March 2020, and that obviously followed the process of there's a conservation management plan that was developed for the site, which was input from the former Heritage Advisory Committee as part of that preparation of that conservation management plan. Obviously a site that has the remnants of the water mill that obviously represented that early colonial period and that story in the history of the Hawkesbury really becoming the food bowl for the emerging colony. But it is a site that was identified as having Aboriginal cultural archaeology and significant potential for more, and that really sort of stemmed from the original name for the site in Muru, meaning pathway.

So the actual application process and the preparation of the conservation management plan was informed by work of members of the former committee and this committee. So the recommendation is to obviously note that the state listing has occurred, but also to recommend that Council formally acknowledges and thanks every person that was involved in the assistance of that application process.

Erin, do you want to speak to the Aboriginal archaeology on site? You don't have to, but if you want to, you're certainly welcome to.

We spent a day walking up or downstream, I don't know. We walked along the waterways, looking at a lot of different elements. There was a lot of archaeology sites found, such as grinding, as ochre quarrying, as scar trees. But there is a lot more, knowing what the land forms and knowing what we've already found. We're pre-empting that if we did another cultural heritage survey or monitor over that space, we're going to get ten times more detail coming out of that.

So, I don't know what else you want me to say

No, that's fine. I don't want you to say anything in particular. You can say whatever you like. It's your area of expertise, not mine. Thank you.

Does anyone want to make any further comment, Christopher? Yes. Oh

Sorry.

No, go ahead, and then we'll go to Jill.

Madam Chair, just quickly, at our update meeting, it was asked that I contact Singleton Council, which I did. I contacted them on Tuesday the 1st of the 8th, and I asked for the strategic planning manager. They don't have one. I asked them for a heritage officer. They don't have one. But they do have a consultant heritage advisor, so I was asked to write an email to them to see if they're interested in what we were talking about, the potential of a joint listing, a joint state listing potentially. But the person I spoke to wasn't aware of any Singleton's mill site within Singleton, so... I'll come back to the committee with any update from that email, but that's where we're at at the moment.

Thank you. Jill and then Deb. I was fortunate enough to work at the Singleton Mill site doing conservation and land management, and we were working among the ruins of the mill there. And I understood there was another mill at Spencer on the Hawkesbury River, but the Historical Society, Kurrajong Comleroy Society, asked me to get it named as Singleton's Reserve, which I brought to Council. So I'm really, really pleased this has all gone through. It's just such a wonderful site to work, and every day we walked along the little dirt road which the bullocks used to walk along with their dray and moving the stone and that sort of thing. And it was just wonderful working there. There were powerful owls in the trees and lots of Aboriginal things and interesting plants, and it was just wonderful to work there.

Thank you. Deb. After the last update, I went and checked. The other Singleton Mill site, which I think is the one you're referring to, is actually in Hornsby Council.

That's correct, Deb

But there's also, from what I could see on internet searches, there were a couple of mill sites that Benjamin Singleton would have been involved with, which are no longer there in Singleton itself.

There was some reference to that, but I think the main one is the one at Hornsby , and I thought that that was the one we were talking about .

I apologise. I thought we were talking about Singleton Council, but.

Graham. Madam Chair, through you and to Erin, if I could, I just wanted to ask if the information that you've actually determined from your visits to the Mill site, whether that can be made publicly available, or whether it can't, or whether it could be included in the conservation management plan for the site or whatever.

Through the Chair. I can contact Brad at Heritage New South Wales and see if we can get his report, yeah, because he was with us on site. I didn't record anything personally. He was— I was— yeah, I'm not going to put that on speaker. What I'll say.

Okay, anything

Anything further on Singleton's Mill ? So I'd like to personally thank the people who did that work. It's been really, really valuable. So Erin, thank you, and also to Steve Rawlins, member of the previous Heritage Advisory Committee. Steve is no longer very well. I did pass on to his daughter when we first found out about the heritage listing, and she was going to let him know, and he was very, very pleased to see that he'd worked tirelessly to get this done. So I think that's a lovely legacy for him and his time on the committee.

So I think we—

So we're noting the finalisation of the listing and recommending that Council formally thank everyone . Is everyone happy with that? Can I have a mover of that, who isn't Jill? Michael and Shane, thank you. You can have a rest, Jill.

All right.

Last one, unless before general business, the annual Dr Rick Stubbs Symposium. Andrew.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a short report to outline the outcome of the 2023 symposium and highlight, obviously, the three presentations that were included on the day. So basically, Jasmine Seymour in terms of Dharug language, Oraon Michelle Nichols in terms of the Libraries Unique Local Studies Collection, and adjunct Professor Carol Liston in terms of Macquarie's Sick Town near Yarramundi. So basically, just to highlight the outcomes and the success of the symposium.

Anyone want to make any comment? Michelle, did you want to comment further on this?

Only that we're hoping to lock in the same date , similar date as last year, which would be the Saturday the 3rd of February.

Good excuse to spend the day, a February day in the air conditioning, I think. Any other comments on this? This is just a receive and note. Could I have a mover, please? Erin and Cheryl. Thank you. Right, that's our last item on the business paper.

Do we have any general business that anyone would like to raise? Michelle, your light's on. Is that for general business?

Anyone? Graham.

Madam Chair, I guess I'd like to raise the livability project. And I guess my

Preference—sorry, I preface this by: last time Amanda Kearney, I think her name is, addressed this committee with the consultants, it was indicated then that further detail would be forthcoming in regard to that project, and we would be given the opportunity to look at it and, I guess, provide advice to Council. I don't believe that's happened, and I guess the horse has already bolted, and we have a project in at Richmond which is, if not almost complete, complete. And I do have major concerns about the works that were actually done on that site, being a Macquarie Town, but not only that, because of the pending deterioration that is probably going to be inevitable to historic fabric, particularly where it addresses the paving, the new paving, which is on both sides of the road. And I guess in

Noting that, the particular documents that I've been provided with by Council is that all of this work was to be overseen by a heritage— Consultant or advisor, and I haven't been able to ascertain who that person is. It's certainly not Council's heritage advisor , as I understand it. But it has obviously been signed off, and the contractors have been paid for this work, and yet I believe it's really not very good work and not something that's actually good enough for a historic town of Macquarie period. And I guess I don't want the same thing to actually happen in Windsor, and that's really my concern, that the detail is not there for me to be comfortable personally as a conservation architect to be confident that further deterioration is not going to be exploding within that precinct as well.

So I guess I would really like to ask through you, Madam Chair, that we be given an update on the livability project and a detailed update as to what is actually proposed, because we don't know. There's been many, many changes, as I understand it, over the last 18 months probably, which we know nothing about and haven't been consulted at all. So that's my rant. Thank you.

Thank you. I'll go to the Director of Planning. Is it possible for such a briefing to be given to the Heritage Committee? We are now under significant time pressure because of changes to the livability project. Is it possible to have that briefing within the next few weeks so that the committee can have input?

Yeah, through you, Madam Chair, yeah, absolutely. There was a resolution with regards to the livability project, I'm sorry, at the council meeting in July. It's now, I guess, segmented out into stage one and stage two. So staff can certainly provide a briefing to the Heritage Committee with regards to the proposed work for stage one in

The coming weeks. And I think it might be helpful. I know it's more difficult, but I think it might be helpful to do that in person so that people can look at plans and have a more fulsome discussion. It doesn't need to be a televised, a recorded committee meeting, something similar to last week's update, but I think face-to-face would—I'm sorry to drag you all back in— but I think a face-to-face discussion would be easier than Zoom when it comes to looking at new plans.

Yep, certainly that's something we can facilitate.

Thank you. Graham, are you happy with that, that the committee receive a

Workshop? Absolutely, Madam Chair. I just also wanted to note that I've actually been writing to council in respect of my concerns at Richmond in particular through Amanda, and she's been promising to come back to me after she refers my concerns to consultants. That's never happened, and the last email I sent her was in November of last year. So things are really just— Going astray, as far as I'm concerned.

Okay, so if we could add those concerns, because some of them I assume will be similar for Windsor, and have those addressed in the update, I think that would be helpful. Yep, certainly taking on notice. Thank you. Any further items of general business?

Madam Chair,

One of the resolutions from the previous committee was about some fact sheets for conservation practice and maintenance that was going to be prepared by Council's Heritage Advisor. Can we get an update through you, Madam Chair, on where that project is up to and if that is still forthcoming ?

Did the staff want to comment now, or is that coming back to a later, I presume that's coming back to a later meeting when the staff have dug themselves out from under the slab barn study.

I am aware of some drafts, and I am aware of further work was requested from the committee on those. I'll be honest with you, I haven't got to it, and it's on my to-do list.

I'm mindful, as I was saying to you before, the reality of my job is I'm a single person, and talking to you all in an honest manner, I really have so much time to be able to do strategic work. A lot of my work is operational, but I think from a committee's point of view, I will prioritise it. But I think we've already pushed that we would like to see potential items in an important structure, an important focus, and that means that some things will drop off. But I will take on board this issue, and I will add it to my items that I need to look at in the short term. But I will prioritise the potential items and the slab barn study finalisation work as well. If that's agreeable

To... There was a lot of support from the committee and offers to help with those. So if that's something that is possible to farm out to committee members, I think we would all be happy to help with. We don't need to reinvent the wheel, and I think if you need some help with that, that's probably something that some of us could do without making too much of a botch job of it. So by all means, delegate.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I am looking to have a—there will need to be another working group meeting when I have these draft sheets to come back to them.

Anything further?

Madam Chair, I have one further thing, and this relates to our meeting back on the 11th of March 2021, where we actually noted 19 outstanding actions, of which I am sure there are some which are still unresolved, and I just wanted those to be brought under the agenda for next time.

Yes, and so our next meeting is in October, so we're having a bit of a catch-up phase, I think it's fair to say. So we've got two more meetings this year where we can cover some more of those items. Some of these things have now been put to bed, and we can move on to the next round of stuff. Anything further? In which case, I shall close the meeting at 7 .39, and that's been a long meeting. Again, that's a function of us not having met for a while. Thank you all for your input. It's been really valuable. Thank you.