Heritage Committee Meeting - 2 May 2024

Welcome everyone to the Heritage Committee meeting of the 2nd of May 2024. I'm Danielle Wheeler. I'm the chairperson of the Heritage Committee. I'll begin by acknowledging our Indigenous heritage. We haven't got Erin or Cindy with us at this stage. Hawkesbury Council acknowledges the Darug and Darkinjung people as the traditional custodians of the land of the Hawkesbury. We pay respects to all Elders past, present and emerging, and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the first persons of the country. And I want to acknowledge that here in Windsor we are on the unceded land of the Burruburongal people. That this was, is and always will be Aboriginal land. Committee members and members of the public attending the meeting are advised that in the event of an emergency, you'll be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit following the guidance of our warden.

I'd also like to advise that the meetings of the Council Committee are recorded. In terms of the Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, this may involve the recording of personal information provided at the time of the meeting. The recordings are made to assist staff in compiling the minutes of the meeting and to enable the podcasting of Council Committee meetings. The provision of any information that is recorded is voluntary. If any person does not wish to be recorded, they should not address or request to address the meeting. The recordings may be made available to other people where such access is in accordance with the relevant regulations. The recordings are stored on Council's record management system.

For the benefit of those people who will be addressing the committee, it's expected that you'll refrain from making any insult, allegation or personal reflection against any person present or not at this meeting.

Thank you. This request relates both to your address to the meeting and any answers given in response to questions from the committee. As a courtesy to others, it's requested that mobile phones be either turned off or turned to silent, and after that timely warning, we shall all do so.

Are there any apologies?

Cindy Laws is an apology.

Cindy Laws, thanks. And we've got Gay on via Zoom.

As required by the Code of Conduct, committee members are required to disclose any pecuniary or non-pecuniary interest in relation to matters on today's agenda. Are there any interest to disclose?

Madam Chair, can I declare an interest in item 3.1.2? My property is one of the recipients of the Local Heritage Assistance Fund.

Thank you. Any other? Yes, Madam

Chair, I actually act on behalf of one of the recipients in an architectural manner, that's St Matthew's Anglican Church, so I have an interest in that one. 3.

1.2?

That's correct. And also, I guess I should actually declare an interest in the draft Hawkesbury Timber Slab Barns and Outbuildings update study as being a member of the consultancy team.

Thank you. And I also have a pecuniary interest in 3.1.1. Michelle?

Yep ,

So

3.1.1.1 as well.

Thank you all.

Do we have any registered speakers? This evening? No, thank you. So I won't read all of that bit out.

So we have the minutes of the February meeting . Are there any comments or questions on those minutes?

No. Could I have someone move the minutes be accepted, please?

Jan and Michelle seconding. Thank you. So the next item is 3.1.1, the Slab Barn study.

And I will declare that I have a pecuniary interest in that matter, in that my family home is one of the subject properties. So I'll leave the chamber and ask Councillor Lyons-Buckett to take over the chairing.

Take

My pen so she doesn't steal it. I wouldn't steal the pen. You would. Councillor Miles, since I've sat in this chair.

Thank you.

Wait till Danielle leaves.

Madam Chair, in regard to that particular item, would it be prudent that I don't speak to any of that, or is it allowed as a part of the consultancy team to actually discuss

I think if you were to make it clear which capacity you're speaking in, if you're speaking on something to do with it, would that be fine, Andrew? I think if you're giving some sort of clarification around what has occurred, I would imagine that would be okay. If you go too far, we might stop you.

Okay. So the other thing I wanted to mention about this was there are people's individual names and addresses within the study, so it does clearly identify properties and who owns those. So if the conversation were going to be around anyone's personal information, if people were going to raise things about specific properties, we may hold this part of the meeting in confidential session because it wouldn't be pertinent to hold it in public session if people are going to refer to people by name or their specific properties. So is there anyone who's likely to be raising something about somebody's individual property? No,

So just general discussion. That's okay then, we can leave it. If anybody does want to say anything, we'll just have the meeting change into confidential. So I might just see if some people were at the working group the other day where we had a discussion about this, but for the benefit of others, Andrew or Chris, who's doing the honours? Anna? Thank you, Andrew.

Thank you. So just based on advice from the Heritage Committee regarding the focus of looking at new heritage listings within the LGA, timber slab barns and outbuildings was, for various reasons, was identified as a priority. So to that extent, Council engaged lead consultants Lucas Stapleton Johnson to undertake the update study to basically build on the previous work that was undertaken in 1991 and 2010. I guess the aims of the work that we're presenting tonight was to provide a definitive list and location and condition of the various slab barns across the LGA, provide new and updated inventory sheets, and to consider the level of listing, whether it's local, state or national. And also, importantly, to look at innovative strategies to basically try and incentivise retention and conservation of the remaining timber slab barns.

So obviously, the project's progressed, and we're very happy to present the draft study to the Heritage Committee this evening. I guess it does culminate a lot of work that's gone into producing this study as it is presented tonight. So the study sort of identified that there's 132 properties that were investigated by the consultant team. 88 of those were previously identified in previous studies, and 44 through other means that were identified. And I guess it's really highlighted that, you know, the historical significance is very rare surviving evidence of the long-term agricultural development of the region, which commenced in 1794 and obviously continues today. Many of the slab barns remain in agricultural use, and they are representative of the historic significance of the region as a whole and essentially are one of the earliest agricultural districts in New South Wales.

And, you know, really is that, you know, that food bowl and bread basket of the colony does really reflect that. So, as the deputising chair has highlighted, we did have a heritage inventory sheets working group meeting regarding this body of work in terms of the draft study. And we've had a number of, I guess, comments and suggestions in terms of the draft study there. And as officers, we've also been reviewing the draft, and there's a number of things we've identified in the report that we probably think probably does need a bit of amendment in terms of minor grammar and typos, clarification about some of the historical facts, the statements in terms of flooding, particularly in terms of referring to shelter in place, which is obviously not encouraged by the SES particularly, and a number of other amendments there in terms of farm stay accommodation.

So the report's identified a number of changes that we think probably should be made to the draft study. So essentially we're presenting the draft study tonight basically seeking endorsement from the Heritage Committee to continue the process in terms of obviously getting support from this committee to present to Council to then go to public exhibition and then advance the project through that way. So that's essentially the recommendation.

Thank you, Andrew. Just to clarify that with this list of proposed amendments, have they been done or are you seeking endorsement to do those?

No, they haven't been done as yet.

So if there's anything to add to those or any discussion around those, as well as any discussion generally on this wonderful study that's been done, we'll open the floor for discussion. There is a recommendation within the business paper, if anyone wanted to add or alter to that, the recommendation being that this committee endorses the Slab Barn study to go to Council to exhibit it for public comment. Would that be a period of a month, 28 days, or how long does it go on exhibition, longer?

Yeah, so a minimum time would be 28 days. We probably would, for this type of study, maybe consider potentially longer, but yeah, definitely the minimum would be 28, but potentially longer.

Okay. And the other thing I'll just draw attention to is that the second item tonight about the heritage funding actually also centres on the Slab Barn study and the hope that that will be a focus with the money that goes out this year. So anyone for a comment around the Slab Barn studies? Can I move the recommendation? I think a

Tremendous amount of work has been done. Okay

Thank you, Jill. So Jill, Councillor Reardon, has moved the recommendation, and Councillor Jury has seconded that. Jan? I

Just wanted to speak to a couple of small items that I think need to be corrected.

On the summary, it's got in 1794 the— The district started with 18 farms, which, when you look at the actual study, it says 118 farms, which is the correct amount . So there's a typo there with the one missing in front of the 18. And the next one is somewhat of a private opinion, but it's a historically accurate one, and that is, I know Grace Kaskins has made Dear Robin with a Y, very fashionable. However, historians usually go for the earliest version of what's available. And we're not talking actual spelling mistakes here, because all those words from the Aboriginal people were transliterated. People wrote down what they thought they heard in phonics. So there are three different Brualbrongle spellings, and there are several different Dear Robin spellings, and they're all okay because people were just writing down what they heard.

But the earliest one was from 1795 by David Collins in his diary, and it's spelt D-E-R-A-double-B-U-N , which is different to the Dear Robin Centre that we have as well. So I'm not saying that Dear Robin with the Y, which is what you've used, is wrong, but it wasn't recorded until the 1820s, until 1829, against Collins' version in 1795. So I would like to see, if possible, us use the earlier version. If not, maybe put it in brackets or slash it with D-Y, if you really want to use that. But it is a much later transliteration. That was recorded

Thank you. That's a very interesting point, and I guess at some point in our documents with various things like that, do we have a protocol around how we would present those sort of differences?

None that I'm aware of at the present time, but it probably is a good point to raise and take forward. Yeah.

I think it's incredibly interesting to hear that, and I mean, I think that people, as you're saying, it's not about what's right or wrong; it's about what actually occurred in the translation of spelling. So I think somehow we should consider how best to actually encapsulate that in the various documents and put those sort of facts into documents because they're part of the history as well. Thanks, Jan.

Graham? Madam Chair, yes, I do have one further recommendation in addition to what's in the business paper, and I guess the addition is really in respect of when this thing goes out on exhibition, whether Council would actually consider a launch of this particular study, perhaps in the gallery or in some other appropriate location, because there's been a lot of interest over, or in history, by artists and artistic endeavours actually just recording these structures in various forms, and I think it would actually— assist the community in understanding how important these structures are to the Hawkesbury.

Thanks for that, Graham. So you wanted to add that as a recommendation that we consider that or get some detail around that, because I know timing, I'm not sure. That's why I did ask Andrew about the timing for it to go out , because that would be quite a big thing to bring together. So whether we make, like, a commitment to that and do that in the future or something, maybe not to coincide with when this is adopted by Council to go on public exhibition. But I'll just ask Mr Kearns who would be the appropriate person to get some information about the feasibility of that.

I mean, yeah, so I guess if it was the committee's advice to pursue considering a launch, whether it's prior to the public exhibition or following the formal adoption of the study, we would obviously have to talk internally with, I guess, particularly the likes of our communications team, and potentially, obviously, as there was mentioned there about having the launch at the gallery. So obviously the cultural services team there in terms of availability and location there. So a couple of internal sections of Council we would have to engage with, yeah.

So perhaps, Graham , you would like to put some words to that, just that as part of the resolution that we consider that as an option, and then I guess we can get some sort of a report and more information on that. I think it's a wonderful idea. I'm just a bit concerned about time, time constraints around things in the gallery, because I know they're forecast quite a way ahead of time. But — There's probably still the capacity for us to do something around that, even up at the gallery, not a whole exhibition, just an event or something.

Okay, Madam Chair, I won't try and give you that now because I'm not particularly good at the spur of the moment getting these things out, but I'll work on it in the next few minutes and come back to you. I think Jan

Had something else to say

Yes, could I just add something? And again, this, I guess, looks like nitpicking, but historically things make a difference if they're not accurate. And in the report about the Peninsula Farm, it talks about Stoddart having started it, and it talks about the barn being possibly from Stoddart, which is all correct. But then it says it's an early 19th century barn. Now, Stoddart was actually dead by early 1801 , and that's the first year of the 19th century. So if you're going to be technically correct, it would actually be a possible, and I'm only saying possible, possible 18th century barn rather than 19th

Century barn. Okay, great. So, we're taking that on now, or do you still want people to do some form of submission with any further corrections they may have from the committee, or do you want to try and get that feedback here and now? No

We'd be fine to receive comments like that, and I guess, you know, the minor typos, grammar-type things out of session from the committee meeting. So if there's clarification or historical corrections, then, yeah, post the meeting is fine.

Okay, so anyone who has any other further things that they think that maybe need to be double-checked or need to be reviewed, if they could send that in, is this due for the— will this go to the May council meeting or the June?

No, I probably suspect neither, probably potentially July, yes.

Okay, so you've got a little bit of time to do that.

Definitely received.

We should also highlight that we've received comments from committee member Deb Hallam as well. Yep. Okay,

Thank you everyone for those. Michael.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Two questions, just in relation to the recommendation that we're making tonight. Is that to include that the council proceeds with the state listing of the items referenced in attachment two,

Mr. Curtis?

Yep, that's the intention, is to proceed with those nominations for state listing, yep.

So that would need to form part of our recommendation tonight?

To make it more complete, yeah, probably could do that, yep. But that was certainly, as officers, that was our intention to proceed with those nominations, yep.

Okay. And my second question follows on somewhat from what Graham was talking about with a launch event. Instead of just placing this on council's website and losing a bit of momentum or interest, perhaps it might be worthwhile having some sort of education or workshop information session during the public exhibition to allow the community and the affected property owners to have opportunity to have some myths busted. And to present some of the findings and really sell the importance of this study, which is similar to what Graham was saying with raising the profile of it and celebrating it.

I think that's a very good idea. It would have to be, I imagine, who would we have answering the questions in that regard? The consultants, the people who did the study, or Christopher, or Graham, or who are you envisaging would be doing that?

I would think that it would be taken the lead with Council's heritage advisor and officer, and then potentially having the project team available to answer any technical questions about the study. But certainly with the lead being taken by Council staff. Okay,

Thank you. Christopher, would you be happy with that?

Yes, that sounds like the best way forward if you're going to have a workshop.

Okay, well as we seem to have a little bit of time up our sleeve anyway before this is going to be actually appearing before Council to go on public exhibition, if this committee wants to move forward with a three-part recommendation, which is the first one as is in here, and a second one clarifying the proceeding to state listing for the items included in the report, and thirdly, Graham's number three, which will be coming around the potential launch workshop. It's growing. Are you happy to include Michael's suggestions around a workshop as well as a launch? Yep. Okay. Fire away. Sorry

What I've come up with so far, and obviously it may need to be tweaked. Following formal adoption of the study review, the committee suggests a launch. Of the barn study, in conjunction with the general public and owners of barns, highlighting the recording in history by artists, and then using this as an educational activity , perhaps, or in conjunction with an educational activity that Michael was suggesting.

That sounds good. Just to clarify one point of that, when Michael said for perhaps owners and people to be getting more information from the consultants, were you suggesting that before it's formally adopted? I think Graham's motion includes that once it's adopted by Council and it would be actually a thing that's in place, that that is what we would launch, rather than prior to that. Is that what you were thinking?

I haven't given much thought as to the timing or phasing of that, but I think it's prudent that while it's on public exhibition, that there is opportunity for affected property owners to have that consultation or opportunity to ask questions, to inform their potential submissions for or against the study.

I'll just get some clarity around what the process would be then when this does go forward onto public exhibition. Would each individual property owner who is mentioned in it be notified and told that they could have access to getting any further information that they wished?

Yeah, no, certainly would be notifying every affected property owner of the study and that it was on exhibition, and certainly making as much information available to them as possible so that they understood the process and, you know, the intention of the study.

Okay, well I think with all of that, those various options, that's giving people a lot of opportunity to follow up anything. So first of all, the review, or not the review, any amendments anyone has or any further suggestions to come in after this meeting, if you wish, and then the council resolution would be that three-point recommendation . So is everyone happy with that? Anything else to add? Happy with that? Yep. That's it. So did you get the number three for that, Melissa? Yeah. Okay. Thank you. All right, well we'll put that notice of motion. Is everyone in favour of that? Okay. Thank you. We'll allow somebody back in the room.

So, item 3.1.2, the outcomes of the Local Heritage Assistance Fund. Andrew, are you— Christopher? Sorry

I swapped

Thank you, Madam Chair. So it's fair to say that Council is really exemplary in what it does in terms of having a Local Heritage Assistance Fund. If it's got heritage items, it should have a Local Heritage Assistance Fund to support that. So it's very encouraging that Council has it, and most importantly, it's growing every year. So this year we had 33 applications, and we were able to support 30 of those, and they are tracking quite well. We've got about four or five that are yet incomplete, but we'll be seeking an extension from Heritage New South Wales to help allow those applications to be completed before the financial year. We have good grounds for that. We've had repeated floods in this area, and we've had a recent flood.

It does make it hard to get tradespeople when there's a lot of activity happening, a lot of repairs going on. So we're fairly confident of receiving that. It is important to recognise that this fund actually can tick over. People that might be thinking, Oh, I don't think I'll look after the item that I've got. It's too hard. Just a little bit of funding can push them over to actually get that work done. And I'll just show you. I don't have a PowerPoint display for you, but I just want to hold these up and just fan them out for you, and you can see all of these applications that I'm going to show you involve either works to ceilings, internal ceilings, or works that prevent internal ceilings and other internal fabric from being damaged.

That's ten out of, possibly ten out of thirty applications. So it's a significant multiplier of protecting fabric that perhaps wouldn't have happened. One of these items is just a patch repair for a heritage item. I know it sounds modest, and we only gave them, you know, a small amount of money in reality, but it's had an important impact on that particular residence and saved a lot of the internal fabric. For other applications in this group. The money is probably a drop in the ocean. I've got one here that's probably $300,000 worth of work, and we've given $2,000 towards that, but it's still an assistance towards that work. It's still $2,000. So it is important to recognise how significant this fund is.

And if a council is serious about heritage conservation, they will have a local heritage assistance fund. So I think that's important to recognise. Moving on to next year's fund, there is a history in this council of coinciding timber studies with the availability of the Heritage Assistance Fund to go towards that particular issue, and that's what we're proposing for this 24-25 program: that we consider focusing purely on assisting the critical repairs to timber slab barns that either have been recognised or may not already be recognised in our current update study.

Does anyone have any questions or comments on this item?

Strangely quiet. Of course.

So what we might be proposing with this, we may— you'll see in the report it talks about having potential flexibility about not necessarily dollar for dollar. So I've spoken to a number of timber barn owners since my tenure started here, and it's quite hard for them to— $2,000 meant nothing to them, but a larger group of— body of funding for them that they don't have to match dollar for dollar could be significant. And we may have to consider having that flexibility when we see these applications come in, whether we should consider being kinder in terms of the dollar-for-dollar situation. And it may mean that you have a smaller number of applications that you're supporting. We may have to push aside the whole idea of having a large number. It may be a smaller group. We're making critical changes to significant barns, and we're setting a wonderful example for the future or

For others.

Thanks, Christopher. I think a few things that are probably worth bearing in mind. Firstly , if Council approves the operational plan that's currently out on public exhibition, that includes, at the request of this committee, a significant increase in the Heritage Assistance Fund, up to $100,000 now, which is more than double what we currently have in the kitty. That does give us some flexibility, I think. I think the aim has always been to have that funding fully allocated. We've had years where we couldn't spend all the money because we didn't have enough applications. Prior to 2017, I think, we were almost dragging people in off the streets trying to get them to even attend an information session, let alone apply for and receive the funding.

You'd think when you were giving away free money, people would be keen. But I think it really represents the change in people's attitudes towards heritage listings and heritage protections of individual properties, which have lost some of their fear, and this idea that Council would control what you did with your house and that that was too great an impost. But I think we, I think we can hopefully , if that amount of money is passed in the operational plan, we can provide some funding to do some significant works to some of the barns, some of which really do need some work to keep them standing up. So does anyone have any further comments they'd like to make around how that money could potentially be spent?

Yes, Jill. I'd just like to say that while we haven't been able to give them more money this time, we have been able to help more people who probably need the help with the floods, et cetera. So that's been good.

Yes, and I think what it does do too, the heritage advisor visits every one of these properties, and it means that they then have, over and above the money they're given, they're given a level of expert advice that they would normally have to pay for and that that in many cases can be prohibitively expensive. So this is as much, I think this is more about education and awareness than it is about actually funding works.

Graham.

Madam Chair, I guess I've got a few things going round in my head, and I guess one is if Council's actually looking at allocating $100,000, then maybe that is the carrot to go back to Heritage New South Wales and saying, How about you fork out a bit more too? Because of the importance of these barns, they're going to be getting all of these state significant— Listings , or proposals, and I think it's probably the appropriate time that we really did push hard from the government to actually give some more money out here into the Hawkesbury, rather than the pauper's $5,500 each year, which is all that they offer. I guess the other thing is, in my mind, I don't know whether it would be prudent to suggest that the most funding go to state significant items, perhaps, that are really vulnerable , because most of those items are actually within the floodplain and have actually been affected fairly seriously over time.

I'm not necessarily thinking of the floodplain of the Hawkesbury, but there's many rivers and creek areas which do overflow at times and cause heartache to owners. So there's that sort of thought. But then, contra to that, you say, well, let's not alienate the smaller ones and the less significant ones from funding also. But it's really the dollars that come down to it and giving that incentive for people to actually look after these structures. And I guess the other thing I would say is that because many of these structures are used for agriculture, it's difficult for them to actually make use of these small structures because they have fairly large machinery, and they're building bigger sheds to actually house these things so that the barns become redundant.

So the funding is really so important as a carrot to them to actually have them look after these structures, even though they may not use them 100% in their agricultural endeavours.

Thanks

Graham. Anyone else?

Mary?

Thanks, Daniel. I was just wondering, what are the barns mainly made of? Are they made of pine bark and timbers like that? Like, what are they mostly? Obviously Australian timbers.

Yeah, they're obviously Australian hardwoods, and I can't say exactly which species they are. I can tell some of them, and the committee— sorry, the consultancy team could tell some of them, but not many. It's very hard to actually determine hardwoods until you have a cross section of the actual material itself and then actually look at the cell structure and also the colour and various— even then it's quite difficult. Unlike our European counterparts that actually have softwoods, they can tell how old these things are as well by just taking a cross section and looking at them. We can't do that with Australian hardwoods to date, as I understand it, and I don't think I'm incorrect there. So it could be any number of materials that— any number of species of material, I should say.

The reason I was asking was that is shortage of materials or inability to source matching material or something an issue for these people? Like a lot of them look like they're missing sections or particularly their bearing timbers look like they're missing and things. And I'm just wondering if that's the case, does council have either a store of timber? I know that in some places they keep the timber on site when it's falling down. Or do we ever source things? Because the rate of how things are sort of falling down or being knocked down around Sydney, I would have thought it might be a good opportunity to actually build a store of some of those things. And the other thing around education is the skills that are actually required to do some of this sort of work is, you know, are quite different.

So I'm just thinking that perhaps at some point, you know, we could think about those sort of other ways people could be helped by accessing either the skills or the actual materials they may need, because it's quite daunting for people. And a lot of people can't do it themselves or they can't find a contractor with the necessary skills and so on. So just a thought to, you know, maybe find a stockpile for people. Jan ?

Just thoughts that went through my head as I was reading the study was that two of the state heritage barns are in dire straits, and I think if we were to say that this will be, next year would be a one-off and not be what was going to happen every year. And maybe even get a percentage, like barns get 60% of the funds. But the damage is so severe from the floods for those, a couple of those, and from, you know, wear and tear and falling down, that it will need big money. And when I went round after the last barn study and talked to a few of the people, they just said they weren't interested because they had no hope of paying for it. So I do think that, as maybe a one-off, we should be looking at giving help, particularly to those really dire state items, but perhaps couching it in the phrases that this is a one-off response to the barn study program and it will be, each year will be considered on what appear to be the most pressing requirements for the society, rather than carte blanche saying that, you know, we're going to do this forever.

Thanks, Jen. Anyone else

My good friend Graeme was talking about looking at incentivising or encouraging funding for state-listed items, and I don't disagree with that. I think that's very important. But I think the important thing to distinguish there is that state-listed items already have access to funding additional to what council can offer, and I think we really need to prioritise those that don't have access to that additional pool of funding, which would be local items.

Can I respond to this? Certainly. The only

Concern that I

Would have is there may be a time lag between when we lodge, or there may be a considerable time lag by the time we lodge our nominations and then the Heritage Council considers those. That might be of such a time that we might see these critical barns actually collapse. So I think it might be dangerous to say, okay, you're going to get funds anyway. Let's back off the state ones. I think I'm leaning towards what Graeme was saying earlier, that I think they should be almost on your critical list that you should consider for the funding. Yeah,

I'm not suggesting we back off from funding them. I'm just saying that there is additional funding available for state-listed items, whereas there isn't for local-listed items. And so whether it's now or in perpetuity, there is funding shortages for those that aren't on the State Heritage Register. And so there is a need to really look at providing financial assistance to those buildings which are equally as vulnerable and don't necessarily have access to the same pool of funding. That's all I was saying.

Thanks, Michael. Graeme, did you want to speak? Yeah

I'd just like to add to that a little, if I could.

Funding can come from, obviously with state-listed items, come from three sources. Obviously the state government, local council, and also themselves, the owners. But when you actually put in an application for under... Under Heritage New South Wales grant provisions, you always look a lot better for them to give you money if you actually have a considerable sum yourselves. And I'm not sure that some of these owners will have those considerable sums to actually kick off a project. And so I guess if Council did actually go down that way, or suggest that way of going with state items as a predominantly, perhaps, then it makes that application look so much better in the eyes of the government. And then I'm sure that they would actually look at

Grant monies in a better light, bearing in mind, of course, that any application is up against anything else in the state. And so, you know, these things, we can't say that, yes, because you're a state item that you'll get money.

Thanks, Graeme. A question first : how many of these will be new listings, and will they therefore qualify for funding under the heritage assistance fund

Sorry, there's 18 properties are to be listed as local heritage items under Schedule 5, and 13 are nominated for State Heritage Register, but we only have 10 nominations at the moment. We'd have to— Return to the consultant team to pick up the extra three. So

They're not listed currently

To my knowledge, 18 aren't listed. 18 would be added as local heritage items.

Right. So would they be eligible for funding under the current setup of the heritage assistance?

This gets to what I was saying earlier about having flexibility. So perhaps, I was saying earlier that even ones that aren't nominated in the study or that we uncover, maybe we should consider those as well, even if they're not heritage listed.

Thanks. So I think we've got a series of recommendations here for Council and the staff. One of them is that flexibility around the fund, and I think perhaps we are looking at using the Heritage Assistance Fund as a carrot for properties that aren't currently listed to bring them on board. I think we've had some properties that the consultants couldn't get access to. It's possible that waiving this money is enough to get the consultants through the front gate, and I think we should use that opportunity if we can. Are people comfortable with giving a recommendation to Council that next year's Heritage Assistance Fund predominantly—I don't think we may not need to make it 100%. We may need to leave some wriggle room in case there's some sort of emergency work that needs to be done on a property that we uncover.

But are people happy with it being predominantly used for slab barns? Is anyone not comfortable with that? Jill?

I think they're disappearing at such a rate that they have to be a priority. I mean,

You

Go along that one out towards Fremantle Reach, it's gone.

Yes.

Anyone? So, we are agreed as a committee on that. Good. So that will be one of the recommendations, is that the 2024-25 Heritage Assistance Fund be predominantly used for slab barns. Other recommendations that I've heard here, or other points that I've heard raised, is that council approach Heritage New South Wales for additional funding for council's Heritage Assistance Fund, particularly in light of the increase in highly significant, very rare and very vulnerable slab barns. Is everyone happy with that?

And probably need to add to that the vulnerability due to flooding. So I've just given you a really messy sentence, but I'm sure you can make something sensible out of that.

Madam Chair, one might need to be careful about utilising those words in regard to flooding. As you know, the response that came back to my office with one particular barn that actually suffered against the ravages of the Hawkesbury, they said, we'll move it to higher ground. Well, there isn't any higher ground. And so I wouldn't like them to say, well, no, bugger it, they're in flood-prone land, we won't fund them.

Good, take the flooding bit out. Take that awkward flooding bit out in that case. Now, the other few recommendations we've got, the recommendation around giving more funding to the heritage listed items. Do we want to include a recommendation that, and I think perhaps we might leave this, this might work best, I think if we leave this to the, leave this until the time when we see the applications come in, that we consider committing a significant portion or a large proportion of the funding or a portion of the funding to vulnerable state listed items. Is everyone happy with a wriggle room recommendation there? And I think then once those listings come in—sorry, once those items come in—we can look at that, we can decide what happens . The other—sorry, Christopher. Madam Chair, I just

Noticed we're missing the one about talking to the Heritage New South Wales about getting additional funding. Yeah,

No, that was the first bit.

Oh, okay. Is that— This

Is the recommendation? Yeah, but it's not

Actually in the list that we're talking to right now.

I can't see it, I'm sorry, it's not on my screen. We

Just need to add one about the Heritage New South Wales seeking additional funding

The other—thanks. I can't—I've just got, I've just been told that we're in the heritage committee meeting, which is not helpful because I'm already here.

The other, I think the other recommendation, okay, so there's the

Sorry, I've just lost my train of thought. The other recommendation is that council can— that further— Further discussion, Mary. Further discussion consideration something around skills and materials. What would you like that to look like?

Well, I don't really know what we can do it, but yes, I would think further discussion around that. It could possibly tie in with whatever educational tool we go with, with regard to the slab study, which was what we discussed in the first item. Yes, just really flagging that for a future discussion, I guess, is adequate.

Okay, so what about the committee advises that there is a further need for— there's further need to address skills and materials for restoration of barns. Is that workable? I think so.

Madam Chair, the review actually does highlight and give some recommendations as to the use of second-hand materials and how they may be stored in the future, and I guess that may go some way to answer the question in that regard. But I guess the critical thing here is that when you're dealing with existing structures, one needs to think about the shrinkage coefficient of particular timbers and that they are compatible with what's actually existing within the barns themselves. And so this becomes a critical thing when you're wanting new material or wanting to use new material. One needs to detail things up fairly carefully or just go to particular species that have very, very minor shrinkage coefficient.

Which was, that was why, yeah, hoping to get some sort of store of timber to be recycled rather than people having to access new timber, which is very difficult to do at the moment anyway. So to do that would be given the amount of things that are actually being disassembled around out of Western Sydney. And

I think one of the key things in all this is if you don't have access to the material or you don't have access to people who know that information about materials, people do the wrong thing, even often with the best will in the world. You know, people without skills do the wrong thing. Yes, I'm getting, I will get there. There was another, I've done

That. There was the heritage listing stuff . There

Was another matter. Can people see the recommendation that's up now? Yes. Some people can see. Oh, ta-da. There's one thing, Gay, can you see that recommendation now?

Yes, I can, thank you. Oh, good, thanks. Did you have anything to add to the discussion?

No, I'm good at the moment, thank you.

Okay.

Oh, it was around, there was an extra point here, and it was around, that's right, that the assistance fund may need to consider.

May need to be open to properties identified in the Slab Barn study

That are not yet listed, not yet heritage listed.

That should allow us then to use this as a carrot for those properties. But it also means that those that have been left off don't miss

Out. Mary? I think point C needs a little bit of additional information of what sort of funding. Contact Heritage New South Wales seeking, like, specific funding in relation to the Slab Barn study that's been done and pointing out the significance and vulnerability in that.

Seeking additional funding. Madam

Chair, the point that I guess I was making with that particular one is that seeing as Council is actually increasing its funding for these items, then maybe that should be spelled out too, that this Council is actually, in the process of increasing their funding dramatically, perhaps that Heritage New South Wales will consider doing the same.

So contact Heritage New South Wales, informing them of Council's significant increase to funding and request that Heritage New South Wales do the

Same. And premise it with the fact that we have just completed a very significant study, and in light of that, even though we increased it probably before, but in light of that, we've got an increase locally, and then they might like to come to the party. So contact Heritage New

South Wales, informing them of Council's significant slab barn study

And increased heritage assistance funding.

Is it worthwhile putting the $100,000 in there and then asking them for dollar for dollar,

Or

Better? Increased heritage assistance.

I'm serious. And asking them to match, and asking them to... And

Asking them to match

That funding. If

You don't try, you don't get. Oh,

The worst they can say is no, go away.

Always. Okay. Any other changes to the recommendation? Madam

Chair, could I also suggest that we, in addition to contacting Heritage New South Wales, it's also the Minister for Heritage. Yes. Just to flag the importance of the shortfall of funding that is available and the sort of need with the sort of increase that we're looking for.

And I shall just tell you who the Minister for Heritage is. I think it's Penny Sharp, because she's got planning

For heritage, which is the Honourable Penny Sharp,

MLC.

It's just H-O-N with a capital H and a dot.

One of the glories of being an MP is you get to be honourable.

Regardless. Madam Chair, it might be worth also including the parliamentary secretary for heritage in sending that. Do you know who that is? I forget her first name, but it's Doyle. She's the member for

Blue Mountains

Oh, Trish Doyle. Trish Doyle, yes. I met her at Lithgow at a very old house the weekend before last, and she was very pro-heritage and very interested. So I think, and she represented Penny Sharp because Penny couldn't come at that function, and she was quite gung-ho about it, so maybe she gets a... I mean, you know, yeah. The copy

Is probably should invite her, given that she's just in the Blue Mountains, we could invite her when we— we should consider inviting both of them, I think, when we unveil the— when we launch the heritage. Because she was

Saying how she was wanting to get involved in— sorry, in the Blue Mountains heritage, and hoping that Coolwell would set up that for her. And I said to her later, I said, 'Don't you forget Hawkesbury.' Oh no, I talk to Susan regularly, so she's very keen.

We don't want Blue— as with all things, we don't want Blue Mountains getting all the toys.

Okay, are we— any other changes?

So just the

I think point G needs— I'm not— I think I know what that means, just if I need to be able to— Sorry

Mary? Point G, it may need to be open or it may— or those people, I don't know how those people would know about it .

Made available. Yeah, made available to properties, yep.

We can't hear you, Deb, because you haven't got your microphone on and you're mumbling.

Not yet, doesn't work, because that's assuming that it's going to get heritage listing

Identifying the slab barn study and not heritage

Listed. Not heritage listed, or

Maybe

Heritage listed. That may become. That

May be heritage listed, but

Not yet, doesn't work.

And maybe needs to be two words

Thank you.

I think the beginning of F doesn't match with recommends that Council note the further need to address skills and materials.

Can I just ask a question about one ? Yes . Getting back to G, that

Properties that may be heritage listed, what if they're not? Like, what if the outcome is that they're not? Do they still have assistance made available to them? Well

That's what we're effectively recommending, that those properties are.. . What

About the— okay, there are a couple in there that aren't recommended for listing. Is that correct

Yes, that is that. Sorry, I'm not 100% certain, but I believe that is correct. But the point, though, is for the money that we have, that will be used up very quickly. So the discussion points probably aren't going to come up, perhaps in reality. We might use up some of that money in four items, for example. I've been to a site where the advice was it might be $15,000 just to stabilise this property with some minor maintenance, like... It's not going to be hard to spend the pool of money that we've been given, unless it's matched dollar for dollar by Heritage New South Wales. And

We could always live in hope, can't we?

What about that are recommended for heritage listing? Does that get around that?

Yeah, that works better

I think. Yeah.

So that's G, identified in the slab barn study, barn needs to be inserted. That are recommended for heritage listing.

Okay. Are we done? Is everybody happy? Yes.

Gay, anything to add? Yes, Madam Chair. Just a moment. I'm wondering why items C and D seem to be the same paragraph.

I just need a space.

Happy? Is that fixed it? Thank you. And if we're looking at the terminology or the language used, you've got A, B, C and F all start with a verb, which is good because we're recommending that Council does something. D needs— hang on, not B.

D and E and G are not in the same

Type of language.

Yes. So recommends that Council..

Use the... yep , predominantly for, so take out the second used in that fund, use the,

And take out the B before predominantly

Under E, allocate more funding to heritage listed items and consider committing a large proportion of funding to vulnerable. .. I don't think we need allocate more funding. I think we could probably begin that point at consider committing.

Yep, take that out. Take the highlighted bit out, yep. Consider committing. Note the further needs. Note the need. Just, so take out note. Yep, take out note and take

Up to the end of the second need.

Yep

No, I think you'd need to put that we need to discuss that. Note the need to hold further discussion. To hold further discussion. Yeah, yep. We probably can't physically address it ourselves. Further discussion

About how to address it

Is it worthwhile referring to the recommendations within the review?

Yes. Recommendations for restorations of barn as per the recommendations made in the slab barn study.

And then the final point, consider

That the assistance fund.

Yeah. Does that work for everyone now

We could probably take out the and in G. Identified in the slab barn studies that are recommended for heritage listing.

Great, thank you.

All right, we good? Sorry? Yeah. So can I have someone move that series of recommendations, please? Jill and a seconder.

I'll second. Michael. Oh, Gay,

Thank you . All right. So we have, is everyone in favour? Lovely, thank you. We have consensus on that. Now, that's, now we're on to Graham, did you? Sorry. Fair enough . We're now on to general business.

So the first item , we've got a few things for general business. The livability project is the first thing. I wanted to add a couple of other items. One is Tebbetts Barn, which I think flows on nicely from the discussion that we've just had, and another matter that has been raised with me, which is a shop awning down near Windsor Station. Any other items for general business, please, Cheryl?

Yes, thanks, Madam Chair, and I have had some interaction with you about this, but quite a while ago, about the current status of the Windsor Bridge artefacts working group, which, when it was set up, was extended to June, and— Yes

So we want to look at the time frame of that. We need to look at the time frame, please. Thank you. Sure. Anything else? Jane?

I'd like to raise, if I could through Madam Chair, the guttering at Catherine Street. It is sandstone. It's quite damaged at the moment, but it's sandstone kerb and sandstone guttering. There's not much of it left in Windsor, I don't think.

Is that that area at the top?

Yeah, yeah. All

Righty. So we've got, miraculously, we have— it's only ten past six, and so we can have a fine old discussion about all of these things. So we'll just kick off with the— oh, sorry, Gay, go ahead.

Yes, this is in relation to something that was said earlier that I don't know whether this needs to be discussed a bit further. We were talking about the barns, slab barns, and materials to—

Help to preserve them. Yep. A little bit of background. I got Christopher Reeve to come out and look at an old

Shed. So, Gay, can I

Just pause you there? I'll just put

Flood buns and materials. Okay. Yep. No worries. All right, so that gives us six things to discuss and 45 minutes in which to do so. So, the first item is the livability study, which I've sadly now written my notes from the previous item all over. But all of you received a memorandum via email earlier today, I think. So I'll just read out the salient points from that. The tender for stage one has been finalised. Now, does everyone remember which bit stage one is? Yes ? To Fitzgerald, yes. So a company called K Sivel has been awarded the tender, and the successful tender includes the use of compacted granular substrate under the paving areas to be completed in this stage, as recommended by the Heritage Committee.

So there's a win. Thank you for all involved in that. The stage one works will happen in small sections to minimise disruption to both the community and businesses, and timing and staging of works is currently being determined and will be communicated once it's available. There should be, in the next few weeks, there'll be a number of pre-construction surveys and tests. So if you see that happening, you'll know what it is. It's not people digging up other stuff.

There's a communications plan, and that should involve communication with stakeholders. This committee is considered a stakeholder.

There'll also be communication through council's web page and social media, if you want to keep track of what's going on. And as further information becomes available, officers will provide an update to the Heritage Committee. Does anyone have any questions or comments? We may have to take the questions on notice, depending on what they are.

Graham. Okay, Madam Chair, does this mean that the entire length, both sides of the street, is going to be a granular base to the paving ?

I think it means that the bits we're digging up will be a granular base to the paving.

Okay. What we actually did say, Madam Chair, in our recommendation from the last meeting was that this granular base has to allow for the percolation of water through it, and I think they're the critical bits .

What we haven't seen is what the detail of any of this is and where it's coming from, whether it's a conservation engineer or whether it is the builder that's been awarded the contract. So I think there's still room for some explanation as to... What is being proposed?

Okay, so I can take that question on notice and have that notice sent to the committee via email. That's, I think, the best we can do. Neither of you know the answer to that question, I'm assuming; otherwise you would have leapt forward to answer it. So, yeah, look, I'll fire that email off following the meeting and hopefully get an answer back to you. So the minutes can probably say that the Heritage Committee has sought further information about the detail of that compacted granular substrate and its ability to allow the percolation of water.

Is that what you're after, Graham?

Yes, I think that's probably the most important salient item there. I guess there's also a lot of detail that we don't know about , and I know the detail, when you actually look at what's happened at Richmond, is pretty poor. I don't want those—well, from my point of view, I wouldn't like that to continue in this particular part of the project, or even the full project. And I guess I'm talking about the way the paving actually might come and address the edge of the sandstone, whether that's actually going to be pointed up with cement mortar like it is in Richmond, et cetera, et cetera. There's lots of details that we just don't have that— This committee, if we're serious about this particular project and looking at it, which we have done in the past, we just don't know, and we need that sort of detail, I would think.

So, can you— I think we're at the point where you'll have to give me really specific questions that I can seek an answer to , because I think—I don't think we're going to get another meeting like we had in December. I think you'll need to give me really specific questions that I can pursue through the staff to get an answer for you.

Okay, well, I guess the question is the method of interface between the paving and the sandstone curbing. How is that to be treated?

Any others?

I think we talked about drainage from individual properties. Now, whether this comes out of the test testing that they're proposing to do, I don't know.

I can't think of anything else just at the moment.

All right. If you do, email me and I'll forward it to the staff. Anyone else on this item?

Jill? Yes, I understood it was going to be used—the substrate would be in certain areas, and that's what I'd like clarified

I guess there is one other item too, Madam Chair, and that's— Who is actually overseeing the quality of this work?

Is it their, is it council's consultant, who were the PACE group, or to my memory correctly? Pickett? Place Design Group, or if it's somebody else, or whether council's heritage advisor might even be involved?

All right, I shall ask, and if you think of anything else, give it to me and I'll ask that as well. We don't have a recommendation. We just have that series of questions for this item, so we don't need a mover and a seconder. Okay, the next, the next item is Tebbetts Barn. So, is everyone aware of the barn that I'm talking about? Would someone who isn't me like to explain it?

Should I defer to you, Graham, because you're so clued up about it, but do you want me to give a brief understanding and then you can fill in the gaps? Is that the best way to start?

Yeah, I'll leave it to you.

Okay, so from my reading, there is a significant barn that wasn't picked up when the

Peninsula House on, is it Palmer Street? That's got the address, I think, but when —

Peninsula Street's its formal address.

Okay, well when that was state listed, this particular barn, which would have formed possibly part of the previous owners, but it's been part of that property, didn't form part of the state listing. It ended up in council's control and ownership, so it never got any of the funding or other things related to a state listing. It didn't even get heritage listed, so it's not currently heritage listed. So is everyone aware where that location is?

So if you're heading out to Tabbits Observatory, it's basically the barn in the middle of the paddock on the way, and it's notable by its really poor condition.

But it wasn't always that way. It's suffered a number of storm damage, which Council is aware of and has studied. Yes, it's lost

The roof in a storm.

Yeah. But it does make sense when you think of it, to have, if you're having this lovely home , you wouldn't necessarily build a barn in the vista of approaching a lovely house. So it makes sense that it is earlier to the house. Graham, did you want to fill in any more gaps?

I think for anyone who's not familiar with the barn, it is actually shown on the attachment to item 3.1.1 as one of the items there, and I'm just trying to flick through and see if there's an index to it or whether

I've just got to flick through, I think, and I haven't found it yet.

But it does actually highlight what the barn used to look like not that many years ago, when the previous study was actually done.

So it's fallen, because of the storm damage, it's fallen into disrepair. It is a council-owned property and, sorry , I've just thought of another item, sorry, of another matter, sorry. So it's fallen into disrepair and really needs putting back together, is I think is the short answer. We did discuss potential uses for it when the slab barn working group met, and one of the potential— a few ideas were thrown around— it could be used perhaps as an education facility for slab barn owners and workers to demonstrate how to put a barn, how to secure a barn, and do some of the works, roofing works, slab replacement works, that sort of thing. It certainly has potential for that because it's got space around it as well.

It could be used as a storage site for, as Mary spoke about, the need for— For reuse materials, it does have some potential for that as well. I think it's, but at the moment it's just sitting there with nothing happening, and it's fallen off Council's radar, I think. It's a good opportunity for this committee to put it back on the radar and bring it to Council's attention, both for funding and for inclusion in Council's works program, I think. So my recommendation would be that this committee highlights the need for the securing and restoration of Tebbutt's Barn, and to consider its further use potentially as an education site, but also point out to Council that as the owner of a heritage item, Council has a responsibility under the Act for proper security, maintenance and repair.

That Council isn't meeting.

Madam Chair, if I could just let you know that it's on page nine, where it shows a photograph of the barn a few years ago, not many years ago, when it was complete. And then subsequent pages actually show the state of the barn now in its

Dismantled state. And what that highlights, I think, is just how vulnerable these buildings are and how one freak storm event can take them from intact to really vulnerable.

What it does highlight, Madam Chair, also is that once you actually start to dismantle a structure because of particular events or reasons and leave the historic fabric laying on the ground, albeit covered by a bit of protection initially, in other words, a tarp, the tarp degrades over time, and then all of those materials just rot from being in contact with each other and also the ground. And this is actually occurring there. To my mind, rather than moving these materials elsewhere, it would be best to actually erect them back on the barn so that they actually go back into their position. You can see the form, and they're actually protected, even though they're still in the weather, but they're not vulnerable as they would be close together. So put them back,

In short.

Yeah, put them back in position.

Do you want to add that to the recommendation?

Well, I think the main recommendation is that if Council is serious about asking its community to spend money on barns, Council should. They're the custodians of this particular barn, and I would have thought that that's the major point that should come out of this. Yes, it can be used as an educational barn for others to actually take on board. Yeah, exactly. What should be done and what shouldn't be done, and that's— And that's a test case.

So do you want to—I can't see the recommendation. Do you want, if you can, do you want to add to it or change it?

Well, I can't—I haven't seen what the recommendations are

Yet. Could we share that, please?

There we go.

So, Graham, what do you want to say?

Madam Chair, I'm not sure that Council has responsibility under the Act yet because it's not even listed. It's still not listed, is it

Yet

So that responsibility is not there. I think it probably should be that

We

Do. Yes. There's a moral obligation. So that—but also there's an obligation for Council if they're requiring or , I guess encouraging is a better word, encouraging other owners to actually conserve these barns, then they should be taking the lead and show people what can be done.

So can I have

Some words, please? I just gave a few words. You need to give

Me a recommendation.

The Council has a moral obligation

And community responsibility, I suppose. To conserve the building known as Tebbutt's Barn.

And utilise this as a test case

As a test case, yes, slash workshop for

Yeah, for best practice in conserving slab barns.

Did you want to add that Council note that the material stored in Tebbutt's Barn is deteriorating

Due to incorrect storage,

And this should be immediate. I mean

Can't somebody deal with that straight away? I mean, I

Find it preposterous. Well, then say it. Just got to move it

And sling it up and put it under some

Then say it. Put it in the recommendation. There's no use having the conversation in here. It has to come back to the council if you want some action. Roll it

Okay. So, yep. So make that one. Just split that in half. Take that first bit that you've got there out, because it's incorrect. Take it out. Yep. Okay. And then put one to Tebbutt's Barn— oops. And then put a two after and, and then I'll give you a bit more for one in a sec. Yep, put a two there. Yep. So known as Tebbutt's Barn,

That Council has a... and that the current method of storage

Of materials

Is leading to further deterioration.

I think put in of barn materials because it's the materials that belong to the barn, not other materials.

Historic fabric. So where it says materials, put historic fabric.

And then after deterioration, which should be immediately rectified.

That could easily be taken as they remove it from the site. Yeah, I think you need to put

So which

Has to be rectified by..

Immediately rectified by. By what?

By rehousing within the skillion or re-erecting. Yeah, well, that would be the goal, wouldn't it?

Utilise, and then point two is utilise this as a test case slash workshop for best practice in conserving slab barns. And then we can take our Council note that the material is stored.

Happy with that? Could I have a mover and a seconder, please? Madam Chair. Gay, thank you. Gay's moved and Jill seconded. Excuse me, wait. Oh, sorry, Gay. Yep. I

Just wanted to

Say that we need to — that Council has a moral obligation, not a moral obligation. Oh yes, thank you.

Are you still happy to move that, Gay? Yeah, okay, yes. Thanks.

Madam Chair, can I just make a suggestion to reword item one? Yes. That the building known as Tebbutt's Barn and the current method of storage of historic fabric is leading to further deterioration, comma — and, not comma — and there should be emergency conservation works to rectify. I think it just needs — we need to stress the urgency of doing this , and immediately implies that, but emergency conservation works really stresses the urgency of this work and the importance of this work to stabilise and safeguard the building, which is at risk of failure and total loss if it is prolonged. So

Just say that all again slowly so that someone can type it in. It should be emergency works.

There needs to be emergency conservation works undertaken. Slow.

Including the reinstatement of

Fabric

At the premises or at the structure, reinstatement of fabric. From the structure

From the structure, yeah. Not at the structure. A reinstatement

Of the in its current position. Yes

And so you can take out the other, the from which.

Yep.

Happy? Could we just add after structure, in its correct position.

Thank you. And its original position. In its original position.

Happy? Gay, you still happy?

Yes, Madam Chair. Thank you. Right. All in favour? Jolly good. Thank you.

Next. Madam Chair, just before we go on, and I know this is not related to barns, but in conjunction with fixing the barn, the road beside it going up to Tebbutt's is almost undriveable. So perhaps the surrounds of the barn need to be looked at. Just a point.

I shall raise the road issue via Council's request

System, and it can go on the list with all the other roads. Okay. Next item, and look, I've added the toll house briefly as well, and I am now well aware that it is 37 minutes past six. Shop awning at Windsor. Councillor Turek.

Yeah, I'd like to raise, if I can, I mean, there's a lovely old building across the lights here to the left on George Street known as Robertson's Grocery Store. I believe it was made in 1897. It has some lovely stonework on it, I believe by an Irish stonemason called O'Kelly, and it was written on by Mr Ian Jack, who labelled it the most opulent approach to any shop in the Hawkesbury. So it's garnered some community interest because there's some works going on there, and I thought it might be nice for the committee to be across some information on what's happening there, if possible, please.

Through Madam Chair, so Council was made aware of works being completed to this awning about mid-April. The matter was investigated or formed part of a compliance investigation. The information that we have to date is that the awning was struck sometime late last year and became part of an insurance claim.

By a truck, not by some lightning or an act of God.

That's right. The awning appears to have been present there at least probably from the 1940s or earlier .

We have not received any application to it, so I really can't say much more about the ongoing compliance action that will be investigated at present. But it appears to be, from my view of that awning, it appears to have been there for some years, and it's not a modern awning. But obviously it will form part of a potential future application to Council as part of a development application.

So Council has met with the owners, not at this stage?

Not at this stage. There's been discussions through myself with the person acting for the property owner and— That's as far as we are taking at this stage, but it's without compliance section who will take appropriate action.

Thanks, Jen. Madam Chair, just to clarify, Robinson owned it as a house. He was the builder that employed O'Kelly. The grocery store came later. It's

Quite spectacular, the stonework. Okay, so

Through you to Christopher, has this awning, or has there been some sort of awning there previously, before the 1950s or whatever it was?

As much as I can tell, so I've gone to the earliest historic photos that I can get access to, and it's gone to 1947 is the earliest I can go to. So, subject to, through Madam Chair, my fellow historical guru over there in the committee, subject to her finding something else, that's all I could find. But I went through all the Google Street Views that are available from 2008, and it's been there in that same form, subject to various changes to the signage with the changes in the leases. But, yeah, it's pretty well much been in that form, and I would think it's probably even earlier than the 1940s from the look of

It, and it's a substantial awning. Michelle, do you know

If we've got anything in the collection for

That building? Yeah, anything earlier? No, no. Your light's off again. Can you

Just pop it back on ? It's off . There you go.

Now you're on

They're probably mid-50s photographs, and I think there's a couple of an image a bit earlier that you can see it from an angle. Right. But unfortunately, the same with a lot of building in the Hawkesbury, there just aren't current— there aren't a lot of images. Yep, of course.

It is important to remember that an awning over that sandstone—

That beautiful, beautiful sandstone work has kept it in a safe condition. So it is important that it has some form of coverage from the weather. It is, as people have said, it is world-class carving.

Jan? Madam Chair, I'm not sure if you're aware, but there are carvings on the side door as well. Yes.

Jill? I remember doing a tour with the National Trust, which I think Graham led. My husband Roger and I did a tour with the National Trust of that building, and it was wonderful. Do you remember that, Graham? I think you led the tour.

Your light, Graham. Graham your

Light. Oh, yes. Yes, yes. Just

Talk amongst yourselves. That's fine.

Madam Chair, I guess I'd like to know the heritage status of that building. I gather it's locally listed. Is that correct? That's correct. Okay. Well, if this carving is so important, is it worthy of considering for state significance?

From my humble opinion, yes.

Would you like to recommend that council considers it for state heritage listing?

Well, if it's certainly worthy, then most certainly. Will it come— And I guess

That may invoke, if that was to happen, it may invoke a little bit more money from the state government to actually allow the owners to look at some other alternative other than an awning that would actually cover things up rather than let it to be seen.

Is it likely to come up in the heritage study, in the next tranche of the heritage study?

It's not intended to. We haven't— it's only come to light with this work. The awning being hit has really brought it— I've been aware of this property since I've been here, but— Important things, you still can see the beautiful carving work, even with the large awning there. I mean, it's to be enjoyed at a close view. That's, to me, that's where it's, that sort of, those carvings can really be seen when in that close under-awning view.

And I think it's probably worth noting that it's a building that predates driving, and it's most easily, it's best viewed when you walk past it. Of course, now we drive past it and we miss it, like we miss most of the things. I used to walk back and forth there from the station, and so that's how I've always been aware of it. In fact, I would cross the street to walk past that building because the carving is just so extraordinary. I think, but I think it is worth flagging it as a recommendation for further heritage listing. It's certainly not something that requires an interim order or anything of that magnitude, because they're not seeking to damage the building. But I think we could, if you'd like to recommend that Council flag it for potential state heritage listing, Graham, then I think we can leave that with the staff to pursue.

Yeah, well, yeah, I'd certainly do that. But I guess I've got one other question, if I could, to Christopher , is if this is an insurance issue, then we really don't have a lot to say, do we, other than to allow them to put back what was there.

Insurance companies still have to comply with the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act. That's it in a nutshell. So they still need approval. From Council to undertake work, either it's considered maintenance, minor and maintenance work, but that can only occur when the— we can only consider a maintenance application by letter if the work hasn't already occurred and this work has commenced.

Jan.

There are considerable— there's considerable research that would support this as state listing, apart from the actual carvings on the building, in that O'Kelly has several beautiful cherubs carved in the cemeteries, in both the Catholic cemetery and the Anglican cemetery I know of. And the monumental masonry, a mason's yard, which Robinson owned, was up the side and around the back of that building. And there's evidence that people— I think it was one of the rutters tells of walking home from school with the masons actually working there, and the kids would stop and look. So there's quite a bit. And the other thing is that O'Kelly has got a very significant building in Manly, which I think is state listed. So there's a lot of supporting

Evidence for it. Graham, would you like to add mention of that supporting evidence to the — so that that information doesn't drift off from this recommendation?

Yeah, happy to include that. Did you need words or what?

So Council to consider the. .. The building for state heritage listing, that—

Well, council. I think council consider recommending the building for state heritage listing. Is that because council can't do the state listing to that listing and include

The related heritage of O'Kelly and Robinson's work in the cemeteries nearby. And Manly, and the Masons' yard behind.

And related heritage works of— It's O'Kelly, so heritage works at Manly and in the local cemeteries nearby. Works of O'Kelly and Robertson

In the local cemeteries. Yeah, and the importance of the Masons' yard.

Cemeteries, the importance of the Masons' yard, so, comma, the importance of the Masons' yard.

And

Do we need to add the bit about in local cemeteries and state-listed

Buildings in Manly, or building in Manly?

Christopher, do you know?

Yeah, I do know. I'm aware of it. It would have been the former Catholic cemetery. It's very prominent on that. In that Manly area. Yep, and it was now used for a management centre.

So O'Kelly and Robertson in the local cemetery, I think the state-listed building, that belongs to O'Kelly and Robertson. So just pull that state-listed building, state-listed items in Manly. Is it an item or is it a building? It's a building. It's a single building. It's a whole

Complex. It's a massive site.

State-listed site in Manly.

And that this needs to be moved to after cemeteries, I think, because that relates to that clause of the sentence.

Apparently his work was notable all over Sydney. It was really good.

Madam Chair, I think we need to add a few more words after heritage listing on the first sentence.

Just put your mouth near the microphone. Sorry.

I'd like to consider putting in a few words after state heritage listing, recognising the quality of the sandstone carving on this street facade. Slow down.

Beg your pardon? Okay, well street

And side.

You say it's iconic, right?

Is it— would you say

It's iconic?

No, I can't say that. Just let him get it out,

Jill, or we'll be here all night.

That would take a bit more research, I think, Jill.

I think

Madam Chair suffices to say it has aesthetic significance. The

Quality of the sandstone carving, the aesthetic significance

Did someone tell you before you got this gig that being the secretary for the Heritage Advisory Committee is not for the faint-hearted? We have worn out a couple of secretaries in the last couple of terms. You have been warned.

Yes

Madam Chair, it sounds like that the awning's got the carvings on it. I think the heading needs to be changed.

Yes. Robertson. I think we'll just put Robertson's Grocery Store, or works to Robertson's Grocery Store. Sorry, two people are talking to the poor minute secretary, and she's—

Could we just change the heading where it says shop awning at Windsor, just have it as Robertson's Grocery Store, Windsor.

Robertson's Building. Robertson's House.

Madam Chair, did you want the address?

Sure.

394 George Street, Windsor. Yep.

Robertson House

Was there a point two?

Need to take out A as well. After significance and include related heritage works, take out the A in front of related.

Yep. And do

We need— Probably a comma after significance

Yeah. Yeah, a comma and take out and, I think.

I think it needs— The statement needs capitals. That it needs to be including if you don't have and.

Madam Chair, if I could recommend state heritage listing, we just change to building for listing on the State Heritage Register,

Comma, recognising. Where is that, sorry?

First sentence. Recommending the building for listing on the State Heritage Register, comma, recognising. Yes,

Thank you. Building for— so come back before State Heritage Register, yep. Building for listing.

Would there be a requirement Just wait a minute.

On the State Heritage Register, comma.

Now, Mary. Would there be a requirement to liaise with someone in Manly about their heritage listing, et cetera?

Through the Chair, Mary, there's a lot of information on that particular property, yep, and I've studied it myself as part of my own thesis as well.

I just thought maybe there'd be a bit more weight if Northern Beaches Council jumped on board.

Now, is there a

Point two?

I don't think there is.

Graham.

I was thinking it'd be worthwhile adding stonemason after— O'Kelly— including related heritage works of stonemasonry, or of stonemasons O'Kelly and Robertson.

There's nowhere it said that that's what they are. It's one word, stonemasons.

Charles O'Kelly

Yeah, just take out the of. That's— you've got it. Now, is that it?

Yep .

Graham, you're moving that?

Yes, I'll move that.

Can I have a seconder? Jill, you'll second. All in favour? Excellent, because it's five to seven. Only I can see the clock, and we've got four more items to go. Christopher.

I'm happy to speak to the Northern Beaches.

Just tell everybody.

Sorry, Mary, I'm happy to speak to that council if that would be of assistance.

I'm not precious about it. I just thought the more, like sometimes if there's two people pushing something, it's better than one.

Yeah.

Cheryl, you wanted to raise the life expectancy of the Windsor Bridge artefacts working group, which is set to conclude by council resolution in June? Yes

Well, this was the last advice we received, which was the last meeting, which was in October, and it was good news then that we heard that it was going to be extended to June, because originally it was going to end in November last year. But since then there's been, and we recognise there's been changes in council staff around that group. However, it's now May. We haven't had a meeting this year at all. The group is to report to this committee, and at this stage I think a meeting is planned for May. However, we don't have a date and time and details at this point. It's just been flagged that it may happen in May. So I think I would like to move that we ask council to extend the life of it again till , you know, August or whenever we can, in terms of the life of this council term.

So council will go into caretaker mode at the end of August under the Local Government Act, and this committee will be dissolved at— Point. So the longest that working group can run is the middle or to late August. So if you want to recommend that that committee be extended until the end, perhaps the easiest would be to just recommend to the end of the council term. Yeah . So you're moving that. So that's the Windsor Bridge artefacts working group be, the term of the Windsor Bridge artefacts working group be extended until the end of this council term.

Could I have a seconder, please? Michael. All in favour? Excellent. Good. That was quick and easy. Catherine Street guttering and kerb. Shane. I've got an update on that one. Have you? Would you want to let Shane speak first and then you can update it?

Yeah, just firstly, there's damage to two sections of the Catherine Street gutter. But I note that the kerb and gutter is sandstone and there doesn't seem to be a lot of it left. There's a little bit in Temple Street. There might be more. I don't drive around looking at gutters and that sort of stuff. But I'm concerned because every time there seems to be a repair to that sort of stuff, it's just tarred over the top. It'd be nice to get it relaid and retain that if it has significance. I don't know the history of that section of the gutter, but it'd be nice to retain it.

Jill, your update? Yes. Yes, it certainly would be nice to retain it. I've been following it through, through councillor's request, and I got a reply from Will Barton to say that they've been trying to find a stonemason to fix up those stone gutters, to do it properly, and they think they had a good one who moved out of the area. We have a new one now who will complete the work, so I was pleased. So

It's been following up for quite a while. So it sounds like it will be done correctly. So do you want a recommendation that notes the — The rare — is it rare? — that notes that both the kerb and the gutter are made of sandstone, and the committee's request that that be reinstated. Yep.

Michelle

Can I also note that this occurs regularly in Windsor and Richmond, that there are repairs required, and that somehow or other that's flagged for the appropriate person in council so that the correct repairs are done? Because Chris knows of several others that have been done, and it doesn't always come into his department.

So how about that the committee recommends council put in place a system to

Involve the heritage officer? No, you don't want to be involved. Please,

Please. Can I just let you know, I don't know if you can see the bags under my eyes, they will be to the floor if I have to look at every kerb and guttering. I have had — I'll just give you an example. I had a local resident tell customer services there was a broken sandstone piece in Richmond. I tried to find who in council dealt with it. I didn't have any luck. So I actually went out, rescued this piece of stone. It sat under my desk at council. I then found out who dealt with it, and I ended up having to book a six o'clock meeting with the council staff to actually talk about how it could be repaired. And so, please, I can't — I think...

Put in place some recommendations that not— so it's not involving Chris— that we have a procedure that is followed

If we had heritage precincts, of course, we could say things within those areas

Indeed. That council put in place systems to ensure that heritage sandstone guttering and curbing

Is reinstated. Michael, you've got your lights on. I'm hoping you've got better words than I.

I'm just going to suggest that council develops a policy for the protection, identification, protection and management of sandstone curbing guttering throughout the LGA, so that there are a series of management principles in place that council's engineers and roads team are required to abide by and implement should curbing guttering need to be upgraded or repaired. There is a policy that applies in Windsor, as it does in Richmond, as it does in Bilpin, as it does right across the LGA. Yep.

Madam Chair, I suggest we don't put the word heritage sandstone, because every sandstone curbing has historic significance in this LGA.

So that council put in place policies and procedures for the correct

For the protection of—

Protection of

Sandstone curbing guttering

Within our LGA. You need the word repairs.

To guide and to identify, guide and protect maintenance and repairs.

How'd you go? Good. Got it. Excellent. So who's moving that? Michael is, and Shane can second it. Lovely. Marvellous. Right, next.

Flood barns and materials. Who wanted to speak to that? Gay. That is me,

Yes. Very, very quickly, I just— Gay, could you just speak up a little bit? I guess this is a question. Recently I got Christopher to come out to my property to have a look at an old shed, and he suggested that when I pull it down, that the materials could be used for other restoration projects. Is there a register of such materials anywhere?

So I think the short answer is no. Is that right, Christopher?

Yeah, that's correct. Gay, sorry to correct you on that one. I said your particular items probably, when we looked at them closely, probably weren't able to be reused. We talked about the chance of you restoring them somewhere on site, but even then there was difficulty because you may not be able to use them again. But

That is correct, Christopher. I was just trying to put that in as context to my question. Yeah.

So I think this highlights again the need that Mary raised for Council to look at some sort of

Yeah, suppository for— repository.

A suppository of wisdom, especially a timber one, I can tell.

I don't know what you said. I can't hear from the side of the chamber. So council needs a stockpile, a storehouse for materials for reuse. Is that—do you want to make a recommendation that council consider it?

Or, Madam Chair, or at least a list of what there is available and where it is kept, even if it's not stored in one place, which may not be possible. But if somebody needs a particular kind of item that somebody else has and nobody knows about it, that's a bit silly.

I think that sounds like a project someone would love to do. If only we had another ten staff The remakery

The remakery. Yeah, they can put it in their back cupboard. I think the real difficulty here is finding a place to put this where it can be stored, and we see this with the Windsor Bridge artefacts, is that we've got these things and, you know, there's this difficulty between the works teams who are essentially incredibly pragmatic without that heritage focus, and us who say this stuff is really precious and should be conserved, and there not being a space in the middle for that to happen. Jan. Madam

Chair, is my understanding that in the— I think it was in the '80s, council took down a barn at the top of McGrath's Hill.

Yes.

And they were storing it, so there could be a whole barn already stored in somewhere in council's repositories.

Or it could be compost. No

It could be,

But they did say,

Because it was

All numbered

It was

To be re-erected, you see, and it never happened. I think this is probably a broader discussion. I think we might have to park this as an item for the Heritage Advisory Committee further discuss the need for a repository or a connection point between owners and users of heritage materials. Is that where we're up to at this stage, I think? Gaye, are you happy with that?

That sounds wonderful.

Okay

Thanks. I think there's a number of sort of methods, models that could be just looked upon, and once information's in there, it can become quite easy to facilitate. So let's discuss that further

And Chair, that's actually part of the recommendations within the review study as well. Yeah. And I guess it could be broadened out to any historic fabric, I guess, but— Yes. I take your point, though, that it's difficult for Council to actually store these things properly.

Yeah, and I think previously we've left

This— You divert it out to—

Well, we've, yeah, and we've previously left this to the market, I think, you know, and there are still some businesses where you can go and get historic fabric, but yeah, not actually, Christopher.

So I just want to make one point. There is also a fear that if you have a repository , that people might use that as an excuse to say, I'll give you, Council, I'll demolish my barn and I'll give you my products. Yes So there's a double-edged sword with this.

And I think it's worth noting, in fact, that that's how the Australian Pioneer Village has been treated in the past. I don't want this. I'll give it to you and wash my hands of it. And we have to be cognisant that that burden is borne by volunteers.

Which, yeah, which is why for the slab barn study it was more around what they can reuse that's on site and then supplementing that just with some source, not that wide, because it wouldn't suit, but yeah. The barn from McGrath's Hill, maybe.

Indeed, which was a huge thing. I mean, that was a really big barn. Okay, are we ready to move on from that one?

Did we have a recommendation for that, or we just had a— so can I have someone move that we talk about it further, please ? Michael, and seconded Cheryl . You can't second everything, Jill, sorry, I have to share.

Okay. Toll House is something that I've slipped into my list because I am the keeper of the list, and therefore I get to slip things in at ten past seven, sorry. It's been raised with me that the Toll House is still in the same parlous condition, deteriorating condition that it has been, and may, in fact, not be secured. Could we have someone at least inspect the Toll House and perhaps report back to the committee with the condition of it? I would really like the committee to discuss what needs to be done to that building, A, to meet our requirements, and B, for future use. It's one of those sad buildings that, because we've locked it up, it's unloved and uncared for, and, you know, we know heritage when it isn't used deteriorates. Michelle.

I've worked for council for like over 40 years, and twice the building has received repairs, but it's always been on the outside, not the inside. Yeah, good point.

So could we have someone cast an eye over that building and get back to us for further discussion, please?

Madam Chair, you're referring to our building services team to undertake that

No, I'd really like you to have a look at it in your spare 15 minutes. You don't need to eat, I'm sure.

I'll give you a suppository of an additional 14 hours. I will need a

Suppository. Christopher, you could flick the ball to Otto,

Couldn't you? Yeah, but I think this is almost like an itemised—is that what? No, look,

It would be nice to have someone's, someone, a heritage officer's opinion, either yours or Otto's, to look in there and say, this is where it's at. This is what desperately needs doing. Then I think we bring building services in to do it. I mean, maybe building services aren't the best people to do this, but we can't continue to ignore a building of that significance in a floodplain and hope that it just sorts itself out. You can do that instead of coming to my place, which I was going to ask you for an appointment. I'll continue to hold my veranda up with the piece of 4B2, and you can go to the Toll House instead. Or send Otto. Send Otto. Do him the world of good. Jill, is it heritage listed?

That's a good question. I don't know off the top of my head, but I would assume it would be. Yes. Yes, it is.

Yes, it's a highly significant building. Shane.

I just wanted to say, I think this is long overdue to take a look at it. Two floods ago, I think there was a section of eave missing, and to look into it looked like there was some white ant activity or definitely something else going on, and it could have some significant issues. So it's very timely to get out there and take a look at it, I think.

Okay. So sorry about that. Anyone else?

Yes, Madam Chair, I've got a question in regard to Alambi. I know that

That's

Hot off the press at the moment, and I just didn't know exactly where we're at, if you would please.

Christopher?

Through Madam Chair, I'm happy to. I've lived and breathed Alambi over the last number of months and days. So council engaged—well, do you want me to, how far do you want me to go back? So we've had the original panel meeting late last year, where it was deferred for additional information from the applicant for demolition of Alambi. We had present at that hearing meeting council engaged heritage architect Christo Aitken, and engaged a heritage structural engineer, Harry Gohill, who inspected the site prior to that meeting and then gave evidence at that meeting. So the deferment was for additional information on what the cost, I believe, of restoring the building—I can't remember all the details in front of me, but it was, I think

It was the cost, it was the capacity for it to be restored, whether it—because the applicant, which is Transport for New South Wales, contends that it can't be repaired, and their main contention is that in order to repair it adequately, so much of the fabric would have to be changed that it wouldn't be historic anymore . It's that—I can't remember what that's called—that there's a particular thing where you've just basically have changed it.

So they submitted three reports. One was from a heritage structural engineer. The second was from— A heritage consultancy who was an architect, but I'm not sure if they're a heritage architect. That was from Heritage 21. And finally, there was a cost report from MBN, which basically, if you read it, it assumed that everything was going to be changed in the building. So it was, the figure was something like five million dollars to undertake the work. So we had—

So

What we did in response, we had arranged for an inspection of a laneway. We re-engaged Harry Gohill and Christo Aitken and asked them to re-inspect. It was quite difficult to re-inspect that property, and it ended up being quite a constrained visit due to certain misunderstandings , I assume, from Transport for New South Wales. But anyway , we still had them inspect the property. They've submitted two reports to us, which we've now sent in reply to those documents from Transport for New South Wales. They're being considered and read as we speak by the panel members, and the next hearing will be on the 6th of May, where council officers will be available as well as the applicant. And I'm sure— I'm not sure who else has been invited.

Madam Chair, can I ask Chris, is the community able to attend that discussion and actually talk?

I'll have to find out. I'm sorry, I don't know at this

Stage. I don't know if we can address that panel.

You should be able to observe

You should be able to observe, but I don't know whether you can

Whether you can address the panel.

I addressed the panel at the first meeting. If I could drive my own email, we'd be right.

But I don't know if they'll let you address them.

I'd be highly surprised if they did allow it. Because they've

Deferred the actual adjustment decision, deferred the actual right

Good question. I think they deferred the decision. Yeah

Yeah, that's it. No, they deferred the

Decision to give the applicant additional time to present additional information.

Yeah. I read that today in the papers . Yeah. Yeah. So I think they're, I mean, we're up against a behemoth. It's Transport for New South Wales. It's a big, it's a big ask .

My view is that they've allowed that building to be,

As everyone

Knows, demolished by neglect. Heritage Council has not probably asked them to do a minimum standards, which it probably should have. So, yeah, that's the situation we face. So even if we were successful, we still face the challenge of making sure that building's maintained.

Yes, I mean, things that you could do, I suppose, if you've got media contacts, you could try that. It's amazing how much better people behave if someone's watching. You could, if you have contacts through any government departments, or you could directly contact the minister's office. So you could contact the heritage, the parliamentary secretary for heritage. You could contact the relevant minister, which is Penny Sharpe, and you could also contact the transport minister, because it's her department that will be overseeing this travesty.

It is interesting, and the whole time we've been dealing with Transport for New South Wales, we have not dealt with a single heritage person from Transport for New South Wales.

They

Haven't been present in this whole hearing .

So, yeah, entirely unsurprising, sadly. Any other items? Thank you all for coming.

I'll declare the meeting closed.