Heritage Committee - 1 August 2024

Welcome to the Heritage Committee meeting for the 1st of August 2024. My name is Danielle Wheeler and I'm the Chairperson of the Heritage Committee. Hawkesbury City Council acknowledges the Darug and Darkinjung people as the traditional custodians of the land of the Hawkesbury. We pay respects to all Elders past, present and emerging and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of the country. I acknowledge that we are on the unceded land of the Burruberongal people of the Darug Nation here in Windsor. Committee members and members of the public attending the meeting are advised that in the event of an emergency, you'll be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit following the guidance of our warden.

I'd also like to advise that meetings of the Council committees are recorded. In the terms of the Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, this may involve recording of personal information provided at the time of the meeting. The recordings are made to assist staff in compiling the minutes of the meeting and to enable the podcasting and live stream of Council committee meetings. The provision of any information that's recorded is voluntary. If a person does not wish to be recorded, they should not address or request to address the meeting. The gallery can be seen in the live stream video. If you do not wish to be recorded in the live stream, please move to the foyer and we'll turn the foyer speakers on for you.

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Do we have any apologies? No, and Erin Wilkins isn't with us yet, but should be joining us via Zoom. As required by the Code of Conduct, committee members are required to disclose any pecuniary and/or non-pecuniary interests in relation to matters on today's agenda. Does anyone have any interests to disclose?

Graham?

Madam Chair, as previously, I declare an interest in the slab barn study as a participant in the study team. I haven't noted down which item that is, but I think it comes up in a few of them. I

Think it's certainly 3.3 and 3.1.4. Thank you. And I similarly have a less than significant non-pecuniary interest in item 3.1.3 and 3.1.4.

There are no registered speakers to this committee meeting, so the next, or the first item of business.

Is the confirmation of minutes. Does anyone have any questions or comments on the minutes?

I have, Madam Chair.

Yes, go ahead, Gay.

I'm a little bit confused about two of the articles in the minutes, and because my name is on them, and I know that I'm speaking specifically about, for General Business Part B, resolved on the motion of Dr. Gay Wilson and seconded by Councillor Jill Reardon, and F, my recollection is that I was the one who made the motion about the repository of materials associated with historical slab barns. That was my recollection, but I guess it doesn't really matter as long as it got passed.

So would you like the names changed? Is that what you're asking?

My recollection is that I actually brought it up and made that motion, but does it really matter?

Well, it matters if you want to raise the potential for changing it as a means of correcting the record. Otherwise, I guess it doesn't really matter.

All right, let's just leave it.

All right then.

Sorry.

Sure. So we do have some responses to questions on notice with respect to the Livability Project that from— sorry, here we go. Which appear on page nine of—sorry, page 11 of the business paper. So that's item 4, General Business Part A, the Livability Project update. So I've got some responses to those questions that I'll read out. The first question is: the Heritage Committee sought further information about the detail of the compacted granular substrate and its ability to allow the percolation of water. And the response to that: Council has adopted the Western Sydney Engineering Manual design, which outlines all specifications for granular material, such as that which will be used for the substrate. I don't know, Graham, I think that question was yours, and I don't know if that answer provides you with an obvious response.

Madam Chair, no . In short, I don't think it does actually answer the question, and it gives no detail. And I guess any time I've actually raised this with the team that are actually handling the Livability Project, they say, Oh, that hasn't been worked out yet,

But, you know, it's in hand. But I haven't received anything, nor any detail, and I would have thought that it's the detail that's important for that percolation to occur. I think it's all very well to saying yes to an engineering design, but is that a modern engineering design or one for historic precincts ?

Okay, so let's try and seek a little bit more clarification on that. It won't be able to come back to this committee, but I can certainly send that out to you.

Thank you.

Question two was the method of interface between the paving and sandstone curbing and how this is—

Sorry, Mary. Sorry, I just had a question around that as well. The Western Sydney Engineering Design Manual, is that the standard engineering specifications that the Western Parklands City Group did? Is that what that is?

Do

You

Know the answer to that, Andrew?

Yeah, correct, yep. So that was the combined Western Sydney councils produced that document, and that was adopted by Council as a related document as part of our development control plan.

I thought that was it, so that means that that's a publicly available document now. Correct, yes. I remember when it was in the planning stages. So do you know, Andrew, if within that there is a specific section around heritage, or would this just be general design for, you know, substrate use?

I'm not aware of specific mention of heritage precincts, so I think it's probably more for general construction, yeah.

Thanks, Mary, that was useful. So the second question: the method of interface between paving and sandstone curbing, and how this is being treated. And the response is: where the paving sits flush with the curbing, there will be no interface material. Where the paving does not sit flush with the curbing, a mortar mix that adheres to heritage requirements will be used at the interface between sandstone curb and pavers. Does anyone want to respond to that?

Do the staff have any further comment on that response? No.

I'm not entirely sure whose heritage requirements they are, and whether that means a lime mortar.

Yes, Madam Chair, I guess I'm not totally satisfied with that answer, particularly if Richmond or what was done at Richmond Township is any evidence of what this interface is likely to be and how it's going to appear at the end of the day, because I think in Richmond it looks pretty ordinary.

Right.

Right, another one for follow-up. Question three: when and how is the drainage testing undertaken? So in the response, drainage testing associated with Substrate would be undertaken in accordance with the Western Sydney Engineers Design Manual. So I guess see question one. Question four: is the substrate in a certain area? The granular substrate will be used throughout Stage 1. So just as a reminder, Stage 1 is the mall precinct.

Stage 1 what's happening out there now? Oh no, sorry, it's not. No, sorry. From the station up

So this would be, it's currently being done now, in other words?

Down towards the station, yeah, where the heritage buildings

Are down

At the station. Yeah.

Is there any feedback on how that's going? I mean, is this being put into place right now? We've done our section of it.

Sorry, it's not in my remit to inspect the work, but I

Have been asked some questions about it and I've provided information on that

Just to assist the client, I mean the client that's asked the question of me. Okay

Thank you. Madam Chair, if I could add to that, I've actually observed what's been going on between the railway station and across the road, and it appears to me that there's a concrete base being put down. So it's not granular fill at all. So I just wonder what is happening.

Is that where the buildings are? Is that where the concrete base is?

I haven't seen every area, so I would possibly answer, I don't know to that. But certainly, if it was granular fill all through, which is what we were led to understand , then that's certainly not the case.

All right, I'll follow that up as well. There's additional response to question 4. Stages 1A and 2 are in concept only, and detailed design is yet to be developed. However, both stages will have a granular substrate, with a concrete substrate only being used in areas in Stage 2, which is the mall, where there will be vehicle traffic.

All right, so I'll follow up on the concrete substrate in Stage 1.

And then question 5: who is overseeing the quality of this work? The response: the quality of work is outlined in the tender specification. The contractor has to abide by the tender specification, and Council's role is to monitor the contractor against these specifications.

Shane.

I don't know if it's directly related, but in regards to who's overseeing the quality of work, some of those holes they're digging are quite deep, and there's a concern from the community that going up the hill and into the historic precinct, are they going to continue with those deep holes? And is that going to impact on ground that's not been disturbed before? And if so, who's going to oversee that? So

You're referring to the holes dug for the trees.

Yeah, yep. Yep.

Do we — I don't think we have a response to that from the staff at this point. Certainly that would be something we'd want the Aboriginal archaeologist involved in as well, or the Aboriginal site monitors involved in.

Madam Chair, could I add to that again? Sorry to be so boring on this, but when we're looking at assessing the quality of the work, we haven't seen the specification, so we don't know what's actually in it, do we? And I guess who then from Council, or is it the consultants who are going to actually oversee the quality that's as part of the specification?

I shall ask for you.

Madam Chair, can I also add, following on from Graham, back to point two, or answer to the second question about adhering to the heritage requirements. If the answer to part five is that it's going to be guided by the tender specifications, what tender specifications are there to ensure heritage requirements are bound by and followed? Who signs off on that? Which heritage requirements are they referring to? And how do we — do we have any confidence that they are in accordance with sound practice?

I'll ask all that as well.

Okay, so. We need to receive and note the minutes, which I think we need to do with the addition of the responses to the initial questions and the additional questions that have been asked. So if we can have those added to the minutes, could I have someone move the minutes be accepted with those additions? Graham, your lights on.

Yes, it is on because I was going to ask a question of you. You can ask a question. Okay. I guess I'm referring to page 58 of the document before us, and I guess some queries from this Heritage Committee. So

We're not up to page 58. I

Realise that, but it's in relation to sandstone curbing, and I just wanted to ask you whether it's appropriate to bring that up now or we leave it till later.

Can we leave it till later?

Sure.

Okay. Could I have someone move the minutes?

I have a question too. Yep. I'm querying the number of crepe myrtles that were in the mix to be planted. In the councillor's update today, there were lily pillies and brush box, and the crepe myrtles weren't mentioned. The community are hoping for crepe myrtles

I think that's a question that needs to go to the council staff. It's not a heritage-related question, so it's not something the Heritage Committee is controlling.

Okay.

Right, so, yeah.

Could I have someone move the minutes? Thank you, Shane, and Jill second. Thank you.

Right, next is item 3.1.1, the Windsor Bridge replacement working…

Group progress update. Andrew, did you want to speak to that? And then I will a little bit as well. Okay,

Thanks, Madam Chair. So it's an update to the committee on the progress of the Windsor Bridge replacement project working group. There's been a number of meetings occurred in 2024, in May, June and July. So the working group has discussed the best possible ways to conserve, interpret and display the old Windsor Bridge artefacts. As part of that work, it's also undertaken an inventory of all those particular artefacts that are held by Council. The working group is scheduled to meet again on the 8th of August. So as part of this report to the committee, there's various agendas and minutes of the working group that are attached, in addition to the details of the inventory work that was undertaken. So essentially the recommendation is for the committee to consider the update from the working group.

Thanks, Andrew. So I think we've had a really good series of discussions on the working group. For those of you who've been involved, thank you for your really considered input and the work that you've put in. Graham and Carol spent a lot of time out at the depot with the depot staff conducting a really thorough inventory of all the stuff that we've got, and there is a lot of it across two different sites. It's a really significant collection of stuff that has come really without much protection and without much context. And so it's been really important to have the photos that members of the community took , Paul Calleo and Neil Dand took, of the— of the demolition of the bridge, and that's been used extensively to add to that inventory work and working out, particularly where there's mixed—where there's materials from different areas of the site, like sandstone, to work out what's what really and where it originated.

One of the really disappointing things is that the non-Aboriginal archaeological report is still missing from the suite of documents. It's apparently sitting with the— the staff have managed, the Cultural Services staff have managed to get an acknowledgement that that report is still sitting on the Minister for Transport's desk awaiting ratification, and that's— we've now put a question on notice through to ask when that will be signed off on and released. We've got the Aboriginal archaeological survey report , and we've got the maritime archaeology report, but we don't have the critical non-Aboriginal archaeology report, which is required for us to know really what we should be doing with the stuff that we've got.

So it makes it very difficult for anybody to proceed. I think what we've— one of the things that we've identified is that the need for storage of the equipment is very high. We have a very small pot of money with which to do anything with these artefacts, both to store and to display and conserve. And I think that that's really where the committee... has reached the point. You know, we know what we've got. What we don't know is how best to interpret, display and conserve those materials. And that's, I think, the difficulty that we now find ourselves in with quite limited funds going forward. So that will be the job, I guess, of the next Heritage Committee on the next term of Council. One of the recommendations you'll see in the business paper, the recommendations are on page 29 for adoption by this committee.

One of the recommendations is that that Windsor Business— sorry, the Windsor Bridge Working Artefacts Working Group continues in its current form with the people involved into the next term of Council, so that it can continue working without having to reinvent the wheel, brief all the— any new people who are on and start again. So because that would be a significant loss of time, we need to bear in mind that many of these artefacts are just sitting in a paddock exposed to the weather.

Any further comments? Mary and then Jill. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to thank the people who've put so much work into this. It's great to see it in this format where we can actually see the inventory and so on. I do find it quite extraordinary that that report is outstanding. And when you say a question on notice, do you mean a parliamentary question or

Have you

Written to them?

Sorry, the staff wrote to them. So the head of Cultural Services wrote to them, and the response that came back from

Sorry, I've lost the department, Transport for New South Wales— is that that report hasn't been released, hasn't been signed off on, and it hasn't been released. It's sitting on the minister's desk, apparently.

Sorry ? Yes ,

That

Would

Be a minister from the alternative government who I imagine, I suspect, doesn't know a lot about the whole issue . So I guess we just await for that. But certainly it may be something that, as a council, we also reinforce a question around that. Are there any potential sources to get some money around any sort of—I don't know what sort of system of storage. Obviously these things have to be stored properly and would take some space. But are there any current heritage or cultural funding sources likely to be available for that? Does anyone know?

No, that was one of the topics of discussion amongst the group, was the potential sources of funding, and no was the short answer. We do have a little—we've got 250,000, which the RMS handed to council to conserve and interpret the artefacts. It's nothing, you know, it's in the grand scheme. So—and this was certainly raised by the previous heritage committee when we were looking at the interpretation plan for Thompson Square and the artefacts, was that council is really short on spaces to store and display things like this. The museum was certainly never designed to carry pieces of equipment

Like this. So would there be any opportunity for sections of it or representations of it to be given to other places that store and, you know, preserve this sort of thing? I don't know. Particularly, I guess, anything around the engineering of the bridge, which I believe was very important, whether we've made any attempts to see if anyone else would like to, you know, undertake some conservation of those goods for us?

Possibly, although the prevailing opinion is that as much as we can keep on site within context, we want to. There's certainly been some involvement with the engineers who assessed the old bridge for their input into the importance of the different... Things, particularly the more unusual things like the bricks that go inside the caissons and the caissons themselves, the Lewis bolts, we've had input about the importance of those. But how we put them into some sort of interpretation really is the next step. It's taken us quite a while to get to the point of inventory, and without the archaeological reports, it does make it very difficult to move on. There's certainly been discussion about the importance of the bridge as an engineering, an example of engineering, of innovative engineering of its time, and the importance of that to the body of engineering history.

And we're hoping that we can work with one of the engineering departments from one of the universities on either conservation or display works, but we haven't moved that far down the path yet. I

Think it's a wonderful goal. Just one other question. Was in our original resolutions around ensuring that this is preserved and that the interpretation of the history of the bridge is publicly available, I understood there was something included in that about having a written history around the bridge and the attempts to save the bridge. Am I imagining that? I don't think I am, but I could be.

At the moment, the committee has discussed working with Cultural Services and the museum staff around potential display, and that would include both oral and written . Histories to go into that display. Good, thank you.

Graham.

Oh

Sorry, I was going to go to Jill and then Graham, okay. I was wondering if the working group could get a grant for something as significant as this, I think, and any storage does need to be on site because of the engineering side of things, and I was wondering about that.

Well, the problem, Jill, is that the previous state government didn't care about any of it, and they pulled it down, and so now we're just left with the wreckage, so it's a bit late. They gave us $250,000 and thought that that would do, and it clearly will not do. So I think the current state government, who fought against that while they were in opposition, are not that keen to hand over money because they didn't make the mess. So that's where we are, and here we have an almighty mess created by the state government that council is not necessarily in a position to pay for. So no, I don't think there is any grant money, is the short answer.

I think we should keep trying. I really think that there should be a grant for something like this. There are grants for other

Historical things. There are. There's also protection for other historic things, and it didn't work on this, in this instance. Forgive my cynicism, but really the horse has bolted. I think there is a great deal of grief and anger amongst the people who fought this, and we're still working through that People gave their lives to try and stop this destruction, and they were ridiculed, openly harassed, bullied, ridiculed, had things thrown at them. Lives were destroyed by this project.

We could have a positive outcome in time. Well

In time. Graham.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I guess in further answer to Councillor Lyons' bucket question in regard to interpretation of artefacts and the like, this is where, for her information, it's critical to actually obtain that particular non-Aboriginal report, because that actually gives us the documentation to know exactly where this stuff's come from, where it was stored initially and how it's been sort of moved around. And so those things are most important to us, and I'm not discounting the importance of the Aboriginal documentation either, but we do have that report, but we don't have the non-Aboriginal one, and that actually should reveal lots of things. Madam Chair, I do have a couple of other things, if it's appropriate to talk about here, that was in the minutes of the Replacement Project Working Group .

And I guess one is that there's reference there on page 23 , and that's the minutes of the 13th of June, where it actually talked about the artefacts are now being held in the open and stored on timber pallets.

Well

I can actually advise the committee that the storage on timber pallets is not good. They're failing. I've trodden on many of those timber pallets and fallen right through them because they are rotted. They've been there for so damn long . And I did talk to the manager of the works depot, and he indicated that Council does, from time to time, get plastic pallets. And this is certainly a more beneficial arrangement because they won't rot. Yes, they do break down in sunlight, but they have a longevity when they're touching the ground far better than the timber pallets do. So I guess I would be encouraging, as part of the initial works, that these things be cared for properly, even if it's to get them off the ground in a better state.

And another thing I wanted to mention was, Councillor Wheeler, you're obviously looking at the pricing for a shed, and I guess I'd like to suggest, as a part of that, that that shed could be used for artefacts, for historic buildings, should they become available for storage from the public and to be distributed for other people. So I see that a shed, even though it might be initially for these artefacts, it does have a dual purpose in the long term and may well make it far more cost effective in the long term to undertake that.

Thank you.

I did have one other thing I wanted to mention, and that is that the manager of the Wilberforce depot has done a sterling job in identifying the quantum of stone when it first came in. But now there's 121 sandstone blocks missing, and I understand from discussions with him that this is bona fide. These blocks were taken from the depot under the instruction from Council that they would be used somewhere. But we don't really know where they've been used, whether they're in Thompson Square, whether they're down the road, or where they've gone. And I guess that's a bit of a disturbance to me as part of the group, and I just wonder whether

We might look at these things a little bit more— or not more, but just better—in understanding where they're being used and what they're being used for. Because it appears to me, from the size of the particular blocks, and Bruce did actually measure quite a few of the stones, that these would have been ones that were used for kerb and guttering. They're of that sort of size. So that's really disturbing if we're wanting to utilise those stones in the livability project, for instance.

Thank you. And I think that's one of the things that the inventory has shown. I think it's shown two things. Firstly, the need for better care and storage of the things that we've got, but certainly exactly what is there and what— Now, in this instance, isn't there. What would be a really bad outcome would be for these things to slowly dribble away and be used outside their original context with no knowledge of where they've ended up. You know, regardless of whether they've been well reused in the LGA, we need to keep track, as the custodians now of these artefacts, we need to keep track of where they are used.

So can we include that as a question for when it goes to the Council

Meeting

Certainly

So we've got that series of recommendations on page 29, which I've now scrolled past, and shall go back to. So if everyone could just make sure they're aware of the recommendations that are being moved, because it's—

And then we'll add to that that the committee, so the committee,

I think the motion will, is the recommendations plus the committee requests a response

Regarding the use of 121 pieces of missing , of sandstone missing from the depot.

Jan?

Just pull your light down, it'll move.

Madam Chair, I just wanted to bring to this committee's attention that along with that really important knowing where everything is all the time and what's been taken and where it's gone. Jenny and I have been doing an associate listing of the things that are still there in situ, but have been reburied or have been taken off site, as in the boat remains. Because otherwise, that's going to get lost in memory very easily. And it's really important that those two lists remain together because

When later on, if things are going to be done to the riverbank or to other parts where these things have been covered up again, then it's really important that that's seen as part of the project and that there's a continuity in looking after them, as well as the things that are causing the problem now with storage. So I just want to urge that we keep the two lists together as parts of the same thing.

Thanks, Jan. I think that's a really important point to note, and I think we should add that to the recommendations. The other missing piece there is the Aboriginal artefacts that have been returned to the site, as is practice for Aboriginal artefacts, that they be reburied on site. And so if there is further work there, they need to be noted as well.

Cheryl, and

Then Graham. I just wanted to speak to the second last point there, which refers to the possibility of the 1874 bridge . To have an Engineers Australia heritage marker. Since that was certainly the discussion at the last meeting, but there's been further progress on that one, and a small group of us have actually been working on an application for that. And there's been—I've actually had contact with Michael Clark, who's now advised that the bridge, because— Sorry, Cheryl

Can you just tell everyone, for the record, who Michael

Clark is? Oh, okay. Michael Clark is the chair of the Engineers Australia Heritage Committee, and it was him who first suggested the bridge for an engineering heritage marker. But now he's saying—he's changed his tune a bit—he's now saying that because there's only one span of the bridge remaining, that it actually wouldn't qualify for a marker. But what it would qualify for is being recognised as an item of engineering interest on the Engineers Australia website. So what we're working on now is an application, and he's provided—there's been quite a bit of contact with him—he's provided the application template. And so what we're working on, on his advice, is an application for the bridge to be recognised as an item of engineering interest. And that's simply because there's not enough of it left to warrant a marker, which is really quite devastating when you think about it.

Yeah, it's very sad, isn't it? So

I just wanted to update on that one

Thank you, Cheryl, and thank you for following up on that as well. Anyone else? Graham?

Yes, thanks, Madam Chair. Look, I'd like, reading the recommendations again, I believe there's one recommendation that's probably missing, and I don't know how it is, but that refers to the possibility of having some sort of shed or some sort of structure to actually protect these artefacts, and that doesn't seem to be in the recommendations. And I would like to have it included if that's possible.

Okay, so the additional recommendation would be that a shed or structure is provided to protect the artefacts?

I think it was actually at the East Currajong Depot was probably the most appropriate one that was thought of from the group.

I think we'll let Council thrash out, or we'll let the staff thrash out where they put it. Do you want to add to that, that with the potential of that being used for the use to store heritage building items that could be repurposed?

Absolutely. Look, I think that's worthwhile. Thank you.

Did the staff get that as well? Yeah

So that a shed or structure to protect the artefacts be provided at the East Currajong Depot, and that that shed be used to also store heritage building items for reuse within the LGA.

I think to investigate, because I think that there could be issues around having the public on site. Yes. All the time around that, but yeah.

Madam Chair, could I suggest we use the words appropriate sized shed?

You can use whatever words you like. How are you going with that? You can have a three by three metre shed from Bunnings. Nine

Hundred bucks and you'll be right, leaving if your plastic pallet on the floor.

Thank you. Could I have a mover of that list of recommendations, Graham, and a seconder, Cheryl. Thanks.

Madam Chair, could I just clarify, because the recommendation was to consider the update. I'm not sure if there's another one written somewhere, but that's what's in the business paper. So it's been reworked to say to accept the recommendations, because the recommendations are in the discussion.

They are.

So

Not in the— Yes. So

If

That motion— sorry, I obviously didn't make that clear, that instead of the update, that the motion be that the recommendations from the Windsor Bridge Working Group be received.

Graham.

Madam Chair, just checking, is it worthwhile with that particular motion for the shed indicating that funding may be available from the $250,000 or through grant purposes?

I think that's probably a given. It's got to come from somewhere, and that's the only place it's going to come from,

Frankly. Yeah, but it need to be said, or is it just going to— I

Think it was said quite loudly at the last council meeting when that information came back. But you can include it in the motion if it's your motion, so you can put it in if you like. Well, my question

To you is, is it worthwhile? Be a little

Bit wary. When Council builds a shed of the size that's required, it's going to suck up nearly all of that $250,000. You might want to be cautious about what you want that money to be used for.

Okay, are we— is everyone— sorry, do we— sorry, I clearly have not got many words, which is not going well today. Is everyone happy with the motion? Thank you.

Right, update on a Lambie cottages. Finally, a bit of good news. Christopher.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Heritage— pardon me. The Heritage Committee has previously been given a verbal update within the general business section of the last Heritage Committee on the status of the Hawkesbury City Council development application.

For the proposed demolition of the former guest house, Alambi, submitted by Transport for New South Wales in 2022. Just a brief reminder that Alambi and the unique Kurrajong Heights village has been a popular Sydney-wide tourist destination for many years, particularly prior to the post-war car ownership boom. As documented within the Heritage Committee report, there has been a long-standing demolition proposal dating back to 2006, commenced with a previous similar application by the New South Wales Roads and Traffic Authority, who then became the New South Wales Roads and Maritime Services, and then became the New South Wales Transport for New South Wales. Sorry, Transport for New South Wales.

The news that I have shared within the Heritage Committee report for this item is that a majority of the Sydney Western City Planning Panel has recently resolved, based upon a consideration of the information presented to them from all parties, to forward this development application to the New South Wales Minister for Planning and Public Spaces with a recommendation for a refusal of the application. Now, should the Minister subsequently support this decision, then Council will seek the New South Wales Heritage Council require Transport for New South Wales to restore Alambi to a habitable state. The recommendation from this report is that the Heritage Committee note the status of the current development application for the demolition of Alambi cottages.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks, Christopher. So, if you'll recall, Council passed a resolution that I would, as the Chair of the Heritage Committee, address the Planning Panel about the importance of Alambi cottages. I got a lot of Support from members of the local historical society and members of the local community with information to take to the planning panel, and the local community also addressed the planning panel. Council did extensive work with a heritage consultant to give information to the planning panel. The decision initially was deferred and came back earlier this year for further consideration. Transport for New South Wales were not happy at all about the idea of retaining and having to restore the cottages, and I don't think that they will be particularly chuffed if the minister determines that they have to be kept.

It is a clear case of demolition by neglect. That was evident from all of the submissions, including their own, that came to the planning panel. What was also very clear was the importance of these buildings to Kurrajong and the broader Hawkesbury and to New South Wales as a whole. So I think this is a decision that we can be very happy with. Whether the minister decides to sign off on it is another matter because it is going to cost them, I think, both in the short and in the longer term. So it's a bit of an interesting test case. Do you want to talk about any learnings that came—God, I've used the word learnings, kill me now—anything that we, any lessons learnt from this project that Council can use in the future?

I think the important thing was to present as much facts as we could to the Sydney Western City Planning Panel, and that came from— A combined resources of the councillor, the community, and council engaging experts in this field to present as much detailed information that the panel could then draw upon and come to their own conclusions. I think the important fact that I learnt is make sure you have your information there that can be looked at objectively and a decision made objectively when you have the information available. Otherwise, there's a danger when you don't have the information that there will be wrong decisions made on assumptions. But this is a perfect case where as much information came from both parties to allow the planning panel to make a considered decision.

And I think one of the things that, one of the points that the RMS attempted to, or Transport for New South Wales attempted to make was that significant, because so much restoration work was required on the buildings, they wouldn't be. It was a similar argument that was used about Windsor Bridge, that the heritage fabric would be compromised and that it wasn't worth keeping. And Council's heritage consultant did an excellent job of debunking that myth and... And shooting down the argument that that meant that firstly, that the amount of fabric that would need to be replaced was not as advised by Transport for New South Wales, but also that it did not lessen the heritage importance of the building if normal maintenance and repair was to occur on that building, as would happen on any building when something fails, you replace it with an appropriate material.

And that is what the RMS will have to find itself doing when they undertake the restoration of Alambi Cottages, which is what we hope is the outcome. I think the other lessons from this is that councils, when faced with something like this, councils should be cognisant of their capacity to address planning panels on behalf of the community and on behalf of the elected body, and not sit back and say, Oh well, it's all been taken out of our hands and given to a planning panel, that in fact we do still have some power and we should exercise that power, even if occasionally it is a bit uncomfortable or requires sitting through a very, very convoluted discussion for a couple of hours one Monday afternoon.

The other lesson, I think, is that engaged , active and well-informed community members have a lot of power in this space if they are willing to put information forward to planning panels, that community involvement in these planning decisions is both important and worthwhile, even when that comes at a cost. So this hopefully will be a building saved by its community, if... If all goes well. I don't discount the need for community action down the track if the minister decides that they don't want to pay for the continued upkeep of the buildings themselves. Questions or comments, Graham?

Madam Chair, look, I'd like to congratulate the Kurrajong community and council to taking the stand on this one. It just shows how the community does stand up.

Again

It stood up many years ago with Diamond Hill in the Kurrajong Hills, and that was actually overturned as well. And now this one, we hope, is going to be overturned. But I just wanted to acknowledge those involved and congratulations so far.

Thank you. Do you want to, so the recommendation is to receive a note at this stage. Do you want to include a thank you from the Heritage Committee to the Kurrajong—it's the, I don't have their name correct in my head this afternoon. It's the Kurrajong Districts Comleroy Historical Society. Yep. Do you want to include a thank you to them in the motion?

Madam Chair, I think there was quite a few organisations. Certainly the Hawkesbury Branch of the National Trust presented there as well, as well as just the local community rallying around and doing all of that.

Deb.

I think one of the groups that was specifically formed for this was called Kurrajong Heights something or other. Yes. And they, I noticed everybody is saying Kurrajong, but it's a Kurrajong Heights thing. So I think rather than just say Kurrajong, you need to say Kurrajong Heights and Kurrajong community. With all of those motions, because it was important. Yes. And I think it's a bit difficult to me to sort of say, well, we'll say congratulate Karajong Komleroi or whatever or whatever, because it really was a certain number of individuals from Karajong Heights that drove this to start with. So the other people were involved, but it was a certain group of people, and they really drove it and drove it hard. They

Did drive it very hard. That was a really extensive proposal, in fact, that they, particularly around reuse options, that they put forward that made a pretty compelling case that those buildings still

Had a life. And those people were not members of any community group or specific community group at that time. They were not members of Karajong Komleroi or Colo or Trust or anything. Some of them now are, but they weren't at the time. So they set up a group as well, but it was also just a community group. So do you want to just congratulate

The community for their efforts?

Everyone involved,

I think so, Madam Chair. I think it's appropriate as well as Council, because Council took a fairly high stand on this one as well, which is, which I personally congratulate them, being the author of the study of Karajong Heights. This was a building that was crucial to the precinct, and, yeah , it's just a good outcome so far.

All right. So receive and note the report and congratulate the community and Council involved in the campaign to save the lamp cottages. Yes. Can I

Make that Currajong and Currajong Heights community

Thank you. Yes, Currajong and Currajong Heights community.

Could

I just raise, on top of that, and what a wonderful result, and of course thank you to everyone. And I agree with what Deb said, there was a core group of people who started the movement. But what have we got for in the future? What sort of mechanism can we have in place in Council so that if community members are concerned, as people were about Alambi for a long time, I mean, we saw it deteriorating there. So what avenue have people got to come forward and say, Look, I know that's a, even if there's no application by whoever owns it or whatever, something going into neglect. What is our sort of mechanism for a member of the public to raise a concern around that so that we don't get so far down the track it's so dilapidated it's going to be so expensive to fix?

Do you want to comment?

Through, Madam Chair. This gets to the heart of local heritage listings. There are no minimum standards. And I, in my past job in other councils, I've had property owners speak to me and say, I am not going to look after this heritage item, and I would just let it peel away and neglect because there was no interest to them, and I had no power to respond to that. So it is a key issue with local heritage listings that you do not have minimum standards of repair. So unless it's state listed or listed on other means, we cannot do anything about it. If there is a development application for a property, that's a different story. That is an in to have a look at a property, but basically... There are no minimum standards of repair for local listings.

Can we specify those, or is there no power to do that?

That's under an Act, and we wouldn't have the power to change that Act. But the minimum standards of repair for state-listed items come through the Heritage Act. The Environmental Planning Assessment Act does not have those standards.

That isn't good at all. But it is how it is, I guess.

So that would require change to state legislation, and in fact would be an excellent motion to put to Local Government New South Wales, which we've just missed the boat for, but we could probably raise it in council on Tuesday night, actually, that that goes to someone—we'll have to flag that. So Local Government New South Wales is basically the collective body of local council councillors or representatives, and they lobby for various legislative change, and that would be a really useful one, I think, to take forward. It may or may not survive the floor of the Local Government New South Wales meeting, heritage popularity being what it is, but we'll give it a go.

Jan. Madam Chair, perhaps the fund that we have, that we distribute funds for heritage, could be looked at in a way that it may encourage some of the people—I know not all—but it may be able to be used to encourage some of the people to at least keep the structure to a degree that's upright beyond what we do at the moment. I think funding is the only way you would ever get most people interested in maintaining a building.

Through Madam Chair, the fund already does a great job of that at the moment. I could pull out many examples for you. I

Realise that. It is one of the things that, one of the ways we prioritise where the funding goes. Now we have more applications than we have money, which is only a recent thing.

Maintaining structural integrity is really high on the list of how we choose who gets the limited amount of money.

Just a question. I'm wondering where

So Jan's just responding, and then I'll go to Graham and then you, Cheryl. Okay.

I was just going to say that in some cases, and we haven't had the resources to do this, I know it, but even further conversations than—I know you guys do a great job now, I'm not saying that at all—but I'm just saying that perhaps even further conversations could be put in place. Perhaps even if members of this committee got involved in that, or—I just think that the time allocations we've got at the moment and the talking to people, I know it's increasing, but I still think it misses a lot of those hardcore people that have made that decision. So I don't know the answer. I'm just saying that I think a lot of it comes down to time, that perhaps this committee individuals could maybe get involved in as well.

Thanks, Jan. Graham, and then Cheryl.

Madam Chair, I think the committee needs to realise that although since 1977, the introduction of the Heritage Act, the state government has been able to invoke those clauses of minimum standards, yet to my knowledge, they've done it once, and that's a fairly recent— Case, so I just wonder what basis Council would actually have a chance of trying to actually get people to come to a minimum standards regime when the State Government doesn't act on that.

Good point. I mean, we would be using our compliance powers, is the short answer. And I guess councils are more used to enacting those compliance responsibilities under various pieces of legislation. Of course it is a really big burden. We struggle to keep up with our compliance requirements now with people doing the wrong thing under various bits of legislation. It's a really difficult space. Cheryl.

Just a question, really. I know that it's wonderful to see the list of applicants of the Heritage Fund. However, I'm wondering, you know, the conservation of some sites depends on the owner actually applying, doesn't it? Yes. And so therefore, I would think that there are local sites which are in decline and where there isn't perhaps applications, and that's, I think, really sad. And I don't know what the answer is. I don't know if this is a question or a comment, but yeah, whatever it is, yeah.

Through Madam Chair, there is a lot of work going behind the scenes which you won't see, but I take a lot of inquiries and through myself and Council's consultant heritage advisor, there's a lot of work, a lot of encouragement work that goes on in getting people to apply or think about applying, maybe not this year but maybe next year. So there's a lot of work, there's a lot of conversations that are going on which you're not seeing, you're not being reported to you, that are doing exactly what you're seeking happens.

That's good to hear. The difficulty, I think, is that there will always be complacent owners of heritage buildings who have acquired them for whatever reason, who don't love them. And that's really what we're talking. All of us who own a heritage item know that it requires both money and love and often hard work to boot. But I think we've certainly seen a change in attitude in the eight years that I've been chairing this committee, where we were literally dragging people in off the streets to come to a discussion about potentially applying for the Heritage Assistance Fund, to being overcommitted and now being able to dramatically increase the amount of money that we're spending on it. So change is there. It's slow. There will unfortunately, with private property rights, always be people who aren't willing to look after the buildings that they've acquired.

I've got no idea where we are with the recommendations now. Where were we? We have drifted a long way from the Alambi cottages. We've received and noted. We've congratulated the community from Currajong and Currajong Heights involved in saving Alambi cottages. I think we congratulated council as well.

Did I miss something over here? I can't remember. Ah, and we've had the — I don't think that needs to be part of a motion. We'll take that— No, that was just— We'll take that recommendation. Could I have someone move that recommendation, please? Jill and a seconder, please. Deb, thank you. Okay. Next, the 3.1.3, the Potential Heritage Items Project. So I have a less than significant interest in this item in that my family home is part of the Slab Barn Study.

The reason for no further action is that there is no decision to be made regarding the slab barn study. Graham, did you have an interest you needed to declare as well?

I thought I already had, Madam Chair.

At the beginning, yep.

Who is speaking to this? Christopher. Sorry, I'm not reading the notes because I haven't got the glasses on.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Heritage Committee report for this item has provided background on how the current Hawkesbury Potential Heritage Items project came about. Basically, the delays to the original Hawkesbury Community Heritage Study by Natural Disasters, which coincided with the engagement of the first full-time internal Heritage Officer at Hawkesbury City Council, provided an opportunity to take stock of what progress had been made in that study, to fully document the promised outputs from that study, and to assess how those outputs aligned with the heritage objectives of the local community and the local heritage objectives of the Hawkesbury Heritage Committee members. Now, through stakeholder discussions, it also became clear that the Hawkesbury Community Heritage Study would not be specifically assessing the unique timber slab barns within the Hawkesbury or progressing the previously unaddressed recommendations of the 2010 Hawkesbury City Council slab barn study.

The results of this review were presented to a Heritage Committee working group, who agreed that halting the Hawkesbury Community Heritage Study in its present form and instead developing two parallel strategic heritage projects using the remaining unspent funds from the Hawkesbury Community Heritage Study would be the best way forward. So these two parallel projects are the Hawkesbury City Council Timber Slab Barns and Outbuildings Update Study. The draft report for this study has previously been reported to the Heritage Committee. The consultants have received feedback on the majority of the document from Council staff, and I'm currently working with the lead consultant to undertake some other modifications to the final product.

So there's additional potential heritage items to be progressed, additional local heritage items to be progressed within that study, and a draft planning proposal has been appended to your report , which will help progress those items under the Environmental Planning Assessment Act. The Hawkesbury Potential Heritage Items Project, which seeks to progress the potential heritage component of the previous Hawkesbury Community Heritage Study, in addition to mining all the potential items identified in Hawkesbury heritage studies since 1981. And the report documents that that's over 300 potential items that we can mine for this project.

So

A part-time strategic planner in Council's Strategic Planning Department has been assisting with this project, in addition to the engagement of Dr Terry Cass to prepare the detailed histories of the potential items. Now it's intended to present the draft completed sheets for the project in manageable job lots, about 30 to 40 items. Dr Cass and staff are currently working on 35 potential items, mostly relating to the former Kurrajong Soldier Settlement Scheme. Which were predominantly identified by Heritage Committee member Deborah Hallam. That's 29 properties we've got in that bundle. Additionally, we have two residential properties nominated by the property owners themselves, and four non-residential properties.

Now, Dr Cass is also assisting with the history for 394 George Street, with this committee has previously recommended that we investigate a state heritage nomination. And we've also had a— separately, we've had an additional timber slab barn site identified in Wrights Creek by a committee member, and we'll be asking Dr Cass to investigate that one as well, to progress that. Now, additionally, I was asked by the Infrastructure Department to look at the age of an embankment wall at Colo Heights Road, and I've put some details in there for you about that as well. So

Christopher, I might just park you there, and we'll talk about that finding shortly. Shall we— does anyone want to make any comment or ask any questions about that information regarding the heritage listings across those various tranches? Jill? Yes. We talked about the possibility of an education program regarding the slab barns, and I thought that was wonderful. We were working towards that. Is that going to happen now, Christopher?

It's still in the recommendations, and it's still being progressed as part of all the other recommendations.

Any other questions or comments?

Do we have— what sort of timeline do we have?

It's fairly reliant on— Dr Cass's availability, and that's a little restricted in the short term for various reasons. But I don't have a precise time. But what I can say to you, it won't be much. Once we receive those histories and we can work on just the statements of significance, it wouldn't be too far away. I can't give a precise date at this stage. I can say that because it's a rolling program, we're actually ahead of ourselves. So we're actually preparing shells for the next job lot already in preparation for when this job lot's complete, we can move ahead with the next job lot. There is enough work there, if you can imagine 300 items, 30 apiece each job lot, we've probably got a number of years of work to get through to catch up on 40 years of other work previously done.

So there is quite a task ahead, but we have a systematic approach. We have a cost-effective approach. I think it's a good way to move forward.

Thanks, Christopher. Andrew, you're hovering.

I was just also going to mention, obviously, in terms of the timber slab barn study, the intention is that the amendments that the committee had previously identified will be made in time to report that to the new council early in the term, because we've got the support from the Heritage Committee in terms of that. So that particular body of work will be early in the new term of the new council, and that will progress in terms of an LEP amendment subject to council resolution to proceed. Thanks

Andrew. And so I think that's good news for the next Heritage Committee, because obviously this Heritage Committee will finish. This is our last meeting, and you will all be asked to reapply if you would like to be on the next Heritage Committee. It sounds like you might be in for a really interesting time as we actually progress some heritage listings, which might be nice. Would anyone like to—I was out of the chamber for the slab barn study—would anyone like to... To elaborate on the council resolution around that, was there one?

So, in terms of the, when council considered the minutes, it was, the recommendation was sort of to note that further work was happening to the document based on the committee's recommendations, and that would be formally presented to council when that was completed, yeah. So

That will be held over until the next term of council.

Next matter, Christopher was the road at Colo. Do you want to talk about that?

Just very briefly, I want to acknowledge that Deborah has provided me with some information recently about the property, about the possible construction period of the embankment walls and the associated culverts. That's probably, my understanding from infrastructure is that works pause; they don't have any money for it, so there's no works being done at the moment, so that's all I can. And

You said it was quite significant. Well

I was asked—it's very hard to date a wall just by looking at it—but the dry stone construction, the appearance of it, wasn't too dissimilar from what I'd seen on older walls in the area. So I thought it would be sometime in the 19th century, but I can't date it. But it's quite significant work. The height of the embankment walls is incredible, really, and the quality of the work in the culverts is quite impressive for a... Road I wouldn't have thought would have had a lot of traffic in its life. Deb

I did see some figures, which I didn't send you, financial figures on the construction cost, and they were talking 86,000 pounds in the late 1890s, in the late 1800s, which is a hell of a lot of money in this day and age, so it's not surprising.

Well, one of the things that repeated flooding has taught us in the Hawkesbury LGA is that roadworks are very expensive . We know that very well

Can we know where it is, or is that a secret? Is it

Top secret? It's not a secret. It's Colo Heights Road. I wish I had a map for you I could put up on the screen, but, so the work that we did on the Colo Bridge, you just keep going around and you'll hit Colo Heights Road, and it's a scary road to be on, can I tell you.

Indeed, yes

The height difference from the road level to the valley is incredible. Like if there was a wrong turn, we wouldn't be talking right now. It was quite scary.

So it's along that winding. Yeah and

Then it'll end up joining with—

You keep going

With the Putty Road

Yep .

Okay . But we parked in the middle of the road and nobody, no one was near us.

It

Was a very infrequent usage, I would think.

So the context of that work, I think, is probably one of the most interesting things about it, actually. You know, the really expensive detailed bit of roadwork. You know, out in an area that's no longer frequented.

Okay, so the recommendation here is just to receive and note. Is there anything to add to that recommendation? If not, could I have someone move the recommendation, please? Jill and a seconder. I can second it. Thank you, Michelle. Sorry, Michael. Pipped at the post.

And our last item of reports is the Hawkesbury Heritage Strategy. Andrew.

Thank you, Madam.

So it's a requirement of New South Wales Heritage Grants funding to have a rolling three-year heritage strategy. So the current one we have was obviously covered from the 2021-22 financial year to the 23-24 financial year. So we're due to prepare the next iteration of that. So we've included the current strategy as one of the attachments, in addition to the OEH recommendations for heritage management in terms of these particular strategies. So now that the next three-year rolling strategy is due, we're seeking input from the Heritage Committee in terms of that next version. We also took it as an opportunity, as part of this report, to really highlight both the major work that's underway, some of which Christopher's outlined in the previous item, but also the day-to-day work of our senior heritage officer, and really to see the extent of what that day-to-day work is in terms of a lot of operational-type matters, in terms of internal referrals, whether it's development services, customer service, parks, infrastructure services, our building maintenance section, obviously administering the local heritage assistance fund, compliance and regulatory services-type matters, managing the minor works and maintenance process with heritage property owners, heritage tree matters, obviously the heritage advisory service, assistance to external agencies, I guess particularly Heritage New South Wales for state-listed items, and then obviously the Heritage Committee as well.

So I guess the day-to-day sort of operational-type activities that the senior heritage officer is involved in, and obviously then the strategic projects as well. So obviously the challenges in terms of trying to address the operational and the strategic as well. So I guess looking for some input from the Committee in terms of— Of the types of matters that they think should be included as part of the next rolling three-year strategy, but I guess also mindful in terms of what the, I guess, current operational and various projects are.

Any comments or input?

Things you like in the strategy suggestions, things you think are missing? Graham and then Jill.

Well, thanks, Madam Chair. Look, I guess on reading this heritage strategy, it became very evident to me the amount of work that the senior heritage officer does, or is expected to do, and I just wonder how we fit it all in.

We don't allow our senior staff to sleep. Andrew gave it up years ago. And no life outside council, sorry. You're allowed to do a park run once a month. That's it.

Well, Madam Chair, I will continue now. And I notice that there is also a free heritage advisory service, which has been happening for many, many years. It was my understanding back in the 80s when heritage advisory services came from the state government that this would be a temporary arrangement , and then they were expecting councils would actually take it on themselves. And I guess it's, I'd like to flag that as a recommendation that Council consider a full-time heritage advisor for this council area, seeing as it has so many heritage items and so much necessary work to be done. Particularly 300-odd items to be assessed for significance and listing. And I just wonder, you know, all of this work needs to be done ASAP, as far as

I'm

Concerned, because we've been a bit retarded for too long, I think. I guess that's probably a harsh word, but I think Council has been retarded in respect of the identification of its heritage and actually putting it out there and preserving it. So I guess there's going to be a few things that I think could come out of this strategy , and they would be two big ones for me, that there is so much work to do that the senior heritage officer needs to be backed up by a full-time heritage advisory service to actually facilitate some of the actions that are down in this strategy to occur. And I guess the other reason I bring this up is that the heritage advisory service at this point in time is free to people who request it.

But I also am aware that if an owner of a building or a prospective owner of a building wants some traffic advice or some advice of other way, engineering advice, that's not free. They've got to go out to a consultant. And so I see that.

Owners of buildings really need to pay for the heritage advice that they are provided with, because if you get free advice, then you take it on face value and you really don't value it as much as if you had to pay for it. And I guess I'm talking fairly harshly in that respect, but that's certainly my belief, and I think that if this has gone on for too long, that that's just been a free service, particularly when you consider the other services that aren't free and expected from Council.

Any other comments? Mary

I just think in relation to that, I guess it's about, is the free service for just general, or is it for applications that you're talking about ? It's my understanding it's for both. Oh, for both. Christopher? Sorry

Mary. It does end up being utilised by people who might have a development application in that may be returned. They may then come back to Council through the free heritage advisory service to receive free advice, and so it can be used for any purpose. I am finding over the last six months that it's being used by persons wishing to purchase a heritage item, wanting to know what it can be utilised for, or how they can get their ideas and objectives for that heritage item. What will we allow? So it's used for that purpose, and it can be used, as I mentioned in the report, you can have more than one potential purchaser contact Council. Like, they're paying for their pest reports, but they're not paying for our particular service, and it can happen.

I can get calls for one sale. I can get multiple inquiries and go out to the same property with another, a different person each time that happens. But it's important. I see this work as very important because we need to be upfront initially with someone understanding the significance of the item that they wish to purchase.

I agree. That's why I think it's a balancing act. But I do think that people should be paying for it if it's forming part of an application. I thought when we were speaking before about people seeking advice around the heritage funding and whether they can do something to improve, I think a free service for that's fine to assist them to know that they can access something. But I guess it's always, yeah it's really important that people understand that. But you're right, people have to pay for every other report. So , yeah, we could consider doing that. I

Think it's a difficult balancing act in that we've used the heritage advisory service as a carrot for people, A , to look after their heritage items and B, to engage with people who haven't been engaging with Council around repair and maintenance, or who have not been wanting to accept a heritage listing. And it's one of the few, you know, that and the heritage assistance scheme are really the only two carrots we've got when we say to someone, look, we think your property is worthy of a heritage listing, and they throw their hands up and say, no, no, you won't let me paint my bathroom hot pink, you know, so with— So I think it's very— it's, but I do find it problematic that we are providing free service to people who are perhaps fishing around the purchase of a property, and I think it's— and it is bothersome that council is funding a service repeatedly to the same property.

So I assume that the real estate agent— you've got a sharp real estate agent— who is calling council because they know that the— and that's fine. I think that's an important way of maintaining our heritage properties, but we've also got heritage owners who are waiting around wanting to know what paint to slap on their walls. Yeah, and I think this is— we're a victim of our own success. The service is a victim of its own success, it seems to me, in this instance. And

I should just— should I, Madam Chair, say I'm called out to a property that's for sale, there will be other questions that will arise. So it will involve me liaising with other sections of council. If I'm providing a proper customer experience service, inevitably I'll have to consult with other departments as well, and I will have to do generally some additional research. So it can be quite time-consuming to do this work.

Is there a way around— is there a way of streamlining some of this by making, perhaps taking some time to make a resource about what you can do with your heritage property, or is it also site-specific that that's not possible?

You could, but I've seen that, but I think it's so site-specific that it's very difficult to pick up a document or to write a document that will suit all those situations. And it's those— the nuancing of the actual what they want and how that will sit with the heritage item that can be critical

Moving forward. I would think that having an officer go, especially a senior officer, go to a site for a site meeting, there should at least be a charge. I mean, we charge everything: pool, fence inspections, sewer. So everything for somebody going out to a property is costing the council, even if the advice or what the follow-up may be or something is not actually charged for in terms of a big, like a, you know, like a pest inspection or something. But definitely having people out of their office to go to sites, especially if you're doing it repeatedly to the same property, should incur a charge to the person requesting it.

Michael, you had your light on, and then Graham, and then I'm going to suggest a way, and then Jill, and then I'm going to suggest a way forward.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I agree. I think the advisory service should be excluding general property inquiries about the sale of a property. It should be geared towards conservation advice, and if it's in conjunction with a development application, I would also recommend that that free advisory service does not extend to matters involving DAs or compliance matters unless it is in extenuating circumstances. I think it certainly chews up a lot of Christopher's time dealing with DA matters in referrals alone, and the number of heritage properties and properties that are potential heritage items for sale that turn over in the Hawkesbury, it does generate a phenomenal amount of work that does take away from important conservation advice.

Graham, and then Jill.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Look, I agree with what Michael's had to say as well, and I guess it comes down to— The expertise of council's planners as well. If council, and I don't know the expertise of all of the planners anymore, they sort of turn over a little bit. So I guess I'd be thinking that in an area such as what we have here in the Hawkesbury, that a heritage planner is probably a crucial part of the mix, in conjunction with a heritage officer and heritage advice. And I think then you're actually touching on all bases, and you're taking some of the workload away from Christopher and letting him get on with his other stuff . And I guess when it comes down to what Michael said, down to DAs and the like, then yes, you should go out and actually get your own assessment under the LEP as to what you're wanting to do, whether that would actually be a Gurnsey or whether it wouldn't be accepted.

And that's the nature of compliance, isn't it? And putting an application in, that one needs to consider all of these things, not just get it from council and saying, you know, what can I do?

Jill . I agree with Brian. We do need a heritage planner to help Chris. And also I wonder about the LEP, where is that up to?

Andrew, do you want to talk about the LEP? About where the LEP is up to.

Okay, so the LEP review is, we're waiting for state government in terms of the gateway determination. So there's been a lot of back and forth between the state government or Department of Planning in that respect, but indications are that we should be, you know, receiving something shortly in terms of that. Yeah.

Thank you. So what would you— so I guess we're just, we're being asked for input into the heritage strategy. And so it appears that we've got an emerging recommendation that there are some limits around the heritage assistance fund that relate to using them,

Perhaps limiting to conservation, not to DAs. I wonder too if it would work if you limited the number of freebies to each property. Christopher, do you want to comment on any of these suggestions, whether they're workable, desirable, none of the above?

It's difficult. I'm probably too close to everything to be objective. I suppose that I see that as all of your role. But when

We're on a site and I'm with the council's consultant heritage advisor, often the words we use is there is no limit. Please keep asking us, because a lot of the information that's being provided is important and critical, and you don't want to put a stop on that. So it's a difficult area, really. I don't have a firm view either way, I'm sorry, but I do know that personally that we have gone on site and said, sorry, cut you off. Madam Chair, but I do know we've gone on site and said, keep utilising the service. It's free. You can get help. We'll direct you in the right way, and it's a positive thing. So it's a really difficult area.

Can I suggest, Madam Chair, that the strategy could perhaps include carrying out a review of the current model of the heritage advisory service in terms of perhaps compiling the, you would have some data around how often it's used and the potential number of hours that that takes, etc., so that then we could perhaps move forward with altering how it operates. Because I think if it were to go to a council, you know, with something like that, until there's some sort of data behind it, no changes would be made. So I think maybe if within this strategy there could be a review of it, or just even an explanation. But I think the starting point would be to see, just compartmentalise what it's used for and how much resources are being allocated to that being implemented.

And then I think it becomes a budgetary thing where we could then take out a section that could perhaps be a user pays while retaining a core advisory service for those really important elements of it that encourage people to utilise and conserve their heritage items, I guess.

Can I suggest that instead of using the word review, that you start with a data collection phase looking at the purpose of the consultation, whether it's conservation, adaptation and reuse, DA. Heritage assistance scheme, and we can at least then know where the bulk of that work is going and whether that's consistent then with the aims of the heritage strategy. We can measure that back. If it's fulfilling the aims of the heritage strategy and is within the resourcing limits, then I think it's easier to justify. If the activity sits outside the aims of the heritage strategy and that it's just facilitating people buying and sitting on heritage buildings for profit, then maybe council needs to re-evaluate just how generous it's being with this service.

If the bulk of the work is being used by people who genuinely want to care for, conserve and maintain heritage buildings, then I think we're probably okay to continue as we are.

Jan. Does that need some sort of indication, and is this part of what we can do with the view of looking at whether a heritage planner is needed?

Certainly, and I think those recommendations , I think we should forward to consideration within the heritage strategy the use of or the employment of both a heritage planner and a heritage advisor.

I know what the answer will be initially , but we said this about, you know, eight years ago. This is what we thought was the, you know, we didn't think that we would get a senior, we didn't think we'd get a junior heritage advisor, you know, let alone a senior heritage advisor of Christopher's calibre. So it's one of those instances where if you don't ask, you're certainly not going to get. And

If you have the resource of having done the survey,

That helps. Definitely.

Graham? Madam Chair, I think the fundamental to all of this is actually having a good LEP document. And it's the LEP document that actually then lays the ground rules of what's acceptable, what's going to be acceptable, no matter what sort of building it is, or what sort of property it is. And I guess I wanted to also raise, in respect of what's in the LEP as far as compliance goes for DAs, is I guess what the National Trust has actually forwarded on to you, Madam Chair, for discussion, hoping that that would be tabled. And that is in respect of the sorts of things that council should require as part of a DA, which then gives a complete

Indication of what is being proposed. And I guess I've seen it, and many others have seen it too, that you get incomplete DAs and the documentation, particularly for heritage items, and then the owners or their consultants will come back and say, Bloody heritage, it's always in the way. But if you actually lay out in the LEP exactly what is required when you make a submission of a DA, then that's the basis that you work on. And that then takes away that argument of, Bloody heritage again, you know, I've got to do all of this. But if it's in the document, then there's no argument.

Well, we did have the LEP ready to go at the end of 2021. The previous council voted for that LEP to progress to the state government, and it was held up by a rescission motion in this term of council. So, and hence we find ourselves almost three years on still with no LEP to put on public exhibition. And that's what will happen next when it finally gets out of, you know, firstly the hold-up from council and then now the back and forth with the state government, that LEP will go on public exhibition. And I urge all of you to make those contributions to that document so that when it's taken us a long time to get this document, we had a very extensive review on the previous term of council. It was very disappointing to have it withheld within the first meeting of the new council.

So the LEP we have is an old document in urgent need of review. So inputs to it will be really important, I think, because what's there is not, as you say, is not complete enough.

Madam Chair, I just wanted to raise one further thing in respect of its completeness, because when it comes in, it's going to be out of date. And I say that in respect of heritage impact statements. Now, the heritage office, or Heritage New South Wales, I should say, have only just brought out in 2023, late in 2023, a revised document on what's required in a heritage impact statement, and it's far-reaching. It's not what it used to be. It is— More detail, and I just wonder if council is actually, well, the applications that I have seen recently wouldn't comply with the Heritage New South Wales heritage impact statement recommendation of their guidelines. So, you know, I guess I don't know whether council is aware of all of this.

I guess they should be if they're dealing with these sorts of matters. But this is where I'm saying it needs to be a changing thing, and it needs to, whether it needs an amendment or not, I don't know, but to, I guess, to take in all of these changes as they come forward. So

My understanding, Andrew, you might want to comment, is part of the back and forth with the state government is to make sure that what council has submitted meets all of the state government legislative changes and requirements.

Yeah, that's correct. Yep, yep, on a whole raft of matters, because obviously the LEP review covers a whole raft of matters, you know, looking at a number of potential rezonings plus clause changes, you know, changes to permitted uses and so forth. So there's a whole range of things that the state government is going through, and I guess with a fine-tooth comb, making sure that those proposed changes are addressing, you know, their particular provisions.

And that's certainly, that's happened with changes to the Western City Parklands information, with the city, the six cities legislation and all of those things. The LEP has to marry up to all of those document changes. So I'm assuming that those changes to heritage impact statements and things will be flagged as part of that process. Certainly they can be flagged when the item eventually makes its way back from the state government and goes on public exhibition before adoption by the next, hopefully, by the next term of council.

Any other comments regarding the heritage strategy?

None. Andrew, how long are you able to take comments on the strategy? What's your time?

Probably within the next, say, three weeks. Yeah. Okay.

So if people did come up with, did think of other things in the next couple of weeks, they could forward them to you?

That's correct, yeah.

Okay. So if you are reading this over your nightly cocoa and you come up with something else, please forward it to the staff so that it can be included. And I guess this will come back then to the next iteration of the Heritage Committee for working out the next steps to enact the strategy.

Yeah, that's correct.

Yeah.

That brings us to the end of the business on the business paper. Did anyone have anything they wanted to raise for general— Oh, sorry, we need a mover and seconder for that. And I think the— Andrew, have you made— you've got the notes regarding those inputs. Did you want them specifically listed in the recommendation that comes back?

Our committee officers have noted the comments that were made for our discussion.

Okay,

So

You don't need them specifically?

No, we've got those, yeah.

Happy to move it, Madam Chair. Thanks, Jill. Graham, you're hovering near your light. Mary, your light's on. I know.

Yeah, but I wasn't going to be seconding it, I'm sorry. That's all right. I had one further thing which I flagged with you earlier on in respect of what was on page 58, and I guess I'm referring to the use of sandstone curbing and guttering. And the like, within the livability project in particular, and this was brought up at our meeting of the 12th of the 3rd, 24. And I guess I read the actions required, and it says the matter—sorry, one of the things is that the matter is being considered as no operational resourcing is identified in the current budget for this recommendation. And this is in respect of the use of sandstone curbing within the livability project. And that really worries me, that it says that there's no money available, or it's not currently in the project scope. Well, I would have thought that it ought to be, and yet the document here says that it's not.

And I guess I'm reading on page 28—oh, sorry, 58.

58.

In the middle of the page.

12th of the 3rd, 24

12th of the 3rd, 24. There's a number of items there,

And it's really quite a few of them on that page. It's very interesting reading.

I've just successfully clicked off that.

So this is the—

This pertains to the information that came as a result of Jan's PhD, in part, I think.

Yes, but also other.

And I think it references the use of sandstone to delineate the original roads, that discussion .

In part, but also— And I think also to recreate the missing tooth that, you know.

And I think some of that will and will be considered in stage two of the project. But

The issue that we have, I think, is that we are now down to a very short time frame on the livability project , and there's nothing we can do about that. That is, we've been told in no uncertain terms by the funding body that if we don't return those— if we don't complete the project by June next year, that we will have to return all the funding money , including the money that we've already spent in Richmond and South Windsor. So we're really down to the wire on this project, and there is no further room for additions or changes of scope.

Madam Chair, so what you're saying is we're likely to end up with a second-rate livability project, are we, or is, you know, we're not doing the best we possibly can?

What I am able to say is that this project has been changed repeatedly in this current term of Council, and that what we have now, and the time that we have left, doesn't allow for any further changes to the project.

Jill?

Yes. Yes, Madam Chair. As a result of a question I asked about the sandstone guttering in Catherine Street, I was told that we were looking for a new stonemason, and I thought we'd found one to replace the one we'd lost.

Is that —

Chris, do we know anything about stonemasons? No

I don't know, Jill. It's certainly not part of this current report, so I don't know.

Will Barton replied to me. I don't know.

I don't see those replies. The replies have only gone to you, so I have no idea. I asked for that information and I haven't received it. Cheryl. Yeah

Thank you, Madam Chair. Reading this, and I think it needs to be noted, or I just ask that it be noted, that I can see that this has taken a very long time and that time's running out in terms of the funding. However, I think it needs to be noted that the Heritage Committee input into this came very, very late. There was a whole — A whole 12 months when there was huge community voices , you know, many community voices about this, and Heritage Committee just didn't meet. And so our input, any advice, our suggestions, all came very, very late in the whole strategy. So, you know, that doesn't solve anything, I know, but I think it needs to be noted. I

Think that's a really important point. I think that there were significant community voices who were prioritised over the voice of Council's own Heritage Committee. Yeah, and that is— and in fact the Heritage Committee had to fight in, and those of us, those councillors on the Heritage Committee had to fight for the Heritage Committee to be heard in this chamber. Yeah. Graham.

Madam Chair, I realise that these are details, and we've said before that the devil's in the detail. Yet when the community was asked to comment on 1A and 2, we were told that this was just an overall project , that we weren't looking at the detail just yet, but we would have time to look at that later on. Well, you're just telling us we don't have any time to look at that. And where are we at? We don't know what we're getting. We don't know what's happening when it comes to our most historic precinct, you know, the Mall and Thompson Square, for instance.

I would have to agree with you. These have been largely political decisions.

Could I have someone move the recommendation? Jill, and a seconder.

Do you want to move an alternative recommendation? I'm in your hands.

Would you be happy to receive and note the information about the heritage strategy? Note that the Heritage Committee recommends Council employ further support for heritage, including a heritage planner and a heritage consultant.

Sorry. Perhaps it might be worthwhile going through each of the recommendations, because I'm sure some of them we would all agree with, and others we may not. Like the establishment of a Heritage Committee to do with heritage matters in your area, well, of course we'd agree with that, I think, from talking to others. And if we identify the heritage items in your area, then I'm sure we would all agree to that.

Recommendation three, I guess. If I talk to that one, I would like to add to that. When it says appoint a heritage advisor, I'd like to indicate the council consider to appoint a full-time heritage advisor

Recommendation four, I think, from my point of view, is fine: manage local heritage in a positive manner.

Recommendation five, I think, is fine as well.

Recommendation six, run a main street program. Well, we've done that, I think, in the past. But I'm just querying whether you could run a main street project with the Livability Project in the light that it is at the moment.

Well, it's done. And let's be clear about what the Livability Project was. It was never a project to bolster business. It was never a project based around heritage. It was a project based around making the town centres more livable, so more walkable, more climate resilient, more accessible, cooler, better lit. And unfortunately, the project has been twisted and morphed around, in particular around the needs and wants of business in Windsor, and it's made it a very unwieldy beast, I think. So as far as the main street program goes

There's whether you want to maintain the focus on town centres is something to consider. We have focused on town centres for quite a while. Whether you want that focus to shift to villages perhaps, or something else, is a potential change. Certainly, I think seek to encourage property owners about heritage remains a key goal, and we know one of the areas where it's very difficult to engage owners is in business precincts. We really struggle to engage owners of heritage buildings used for business. And, you know, despite what we've attempted to do in Windsor Mall, engagement of owners of those heritage-listed buildings has been very difficult.

Madam Chair, can I suggest to Graham, if you, on four, UTACT, manage local heritage in a positive manner, including early notification to the Heritage Committee of projects involving major heritage items and precincts . So put that in the ongoing actions, Jan. That would tag onto recommendation four

Early identification to the Heritage Committee.

Yes, because that's what we're complaining about, is that we didn't get— Early and ongoing engagement with. Yes,

Particularly in areas, not just in areas of importance, but particularly in areas of high heritage importance, or— I don't really want to use precinct because that's got a specific meaning with Thompson Square. I don't think

We even want to just limit it to heritage—yeah, to identified heritage areas, because there's so much heritage that we don't identify well.

And I think—oh, sorry. No, keep going. Yeah, I think that's the point, that maybe if we say, you know, major works or something, because sometimes the heritage is identified in the work and it kind of underpins the work , rather than, you know, being specified as this is a heritage activity , but, you know, it sort of comes out of the—so maybe major work or something, or major works. I said major

Projects.

Major projects. Yeah,

Yeah. So what do you want to do about recommendation six, the run a main street program? Keep, not keep, engage with owners of business premises, of heritage business premises. Michael?

Madam Chair, can I ask— Save me Just a question. These are recommendations that come from the strategy , but also based on the OEH 2013 guidelines. Can we reword them, or are they just straight from the— We can. The guidelines that are attached.

Apparently we can do whatever we like.

Okay, I'll have a look.

So again, this is something that you could tweak over the next couple of weeks and forward back to Andrew if you've got— Ideas for reworking that would be, that would be more encompassing than Jan.

I'm just querying what Run a Main Street program means in terms of it could mean so many different things, that it's a very too broader category just to leave as the recommendation. I

Think it's now an old—it's old wording. I think we've replaced that wording a number of times. It used to be a Main Street activation program around heritage, and I think we saw that, particularly in the inner west, Leichhardt, for example, did that very successfully with some of its business precincts around those heritage squares, using cultural reactivation of, like, the Italian precinct of Leichhardt and things like that. So I think that's where that wording comes from. But now I think it's fallen into disuse, and so it's quite ambiguous.

It's actually something that we could raise as an individual project if there was a specific thing to be done anyway. Yes, so it doesn't necessarily have to be foreshadowed in here.

And, Chair, I really don't have a problem with running a Main Street program. I know we've done it before a couple of times. But the two recommendations that I see are most critical is recommendation 8 and recommendation 9. Whereas recommendation 8 says, Set a good example to the community by properly managing places owned and operated by Council. Well, here we are with one of the most important Macquarie towns, and what are we doing with it? We're covering those buildings up with trees, and we're doing all sorts of things that we shouldn't ought to be doing in a Macquarie town . As part of this livability project, so I guess in the long term, it's a good recommendation, but ...

Currently, it's not a particularly good one and doesn't wash well with me, and similarly promotes sustainable development as a tool for heritage conservation.

So, do you want to add to the ongoing actions in those boxes? You're keen to keep them. Do you want to add?

Oh,

Sorry. I'm just looking, going back to the Main Street program.

Very connected to recommendation seven.

It's hard to see them even as necessary to be separate, because your Main Street program is always going to be promotional, if not educational. So that just makes those two recommendations a little bit , well, I don't know, run together or unnecessary as separate recommendations. What if you took out

Recommendation six and transferred seeks to engage property owners about heritage into recommendation seven? Would that work?

Probably. Just seems to neaten it up a little bit.

I think we'll leave the staff to determine where they go with that, but some of these things...

But it's necessary to have something as specific as Main Street when you've got something that covers it anyway. Yeah

I think actually this program, this plan, this strategy, I think we worked out, you know, in a closed room around the table before we were required to... have recorded heritage committee meetings, and I must say it was much, that thrashing around was much easier than in this much more formal setting . Mary, you had your light on? Yes

I was just wondering if the objective of the recommendations, as opposed to the strategies, so the strategies are based on the nine recommendations, but is the purpose of

The recommendations to show our implementation and to put it within our budget and revised resources ,

Not necessarily design. Andrew, do you want to comment?

Yeah, the specific purpose is obviously to meet the New South Wales heritage grants funding process, so it's a requirement to have this three-year rolling strategy. But in saying that, if we have a strategy there, it can be obviously used for a number of purposes beyond that, yeah.

Graham? Chair

I guess I'm just rethinking, and I think the general recommendations I think are good and do accomplish what we're trying to achieve. It's just the specific project that we're doing at the moment, which is, I guess I have a problem with. But the general recommendations as an ongoing thing I think are quite fine in their own right.

Yep.

So I probably should, I guess, revise my comments previously about that, other than changing the recommendations through to a full-time heritage advisor and accepting the others as they are.

So recommendation three, you want a, you want to add a, yep,

A point of— Sorry? Perhaps Council might consider a heritage planner within their staff as well.

So recommendation three is to appoint a full-time heritage advisor. Do you want a full-time heritage advisor and heritage planner in that recommendation?

Yeah.

Okay. I still think that Jan's addition of early ongoing engagement with the Heritage Committee regarding major projects is a really useful addition into recommendation four. Jan , your lights

On. I just had a question about recommendation nine I wanted to ask Christopher when

You're ready. Away you go.

Christopher, do you see sustainable development as a total contradiction of heritage conservation?

Through the— Madam Chair, not necessarily, because saving buildings is a sustainable process. So no. I think it's not a conflict in my eyes

On that particular

Issue.

Does

Sustainable mean that cost comes into it?

Absolutely.

Well, you know, we were just saying that sometimes you have to disregard cost where a building of significance… Is needing worked up.

I don't think these are intended as absolutes or , and I don't think that recommendation nine is an either/or. I don't think you can have sustainable development or heritage conservation. I think you can have both, and I think, you know,

You can get very good reuse of heritage buildings. We've had a really good outcome up on New Street where we've retained, with an interim order, a heritage building and got more sustainable development around it. And actually that building is already quite well adapted from a sustainability perspective. It's actually a far superior building to anything that's been built in the last 50 years, frankly, from a sustainability point of view. And I frequently think of that when I'm sitting in my own heritage building without the air conditioner on , that conservation is the sustainable beginning, I think,

Not the end. Okay, I accept that Yeah.

Yeah.

Any further comments? So we've now got some revisions. So perhaps we have a recommendation that says that the

Heritage Advisory Committee forwards or—

Has made changes, has made recommendations to the three-year heritage strategy,

Including the employment of a full-time heritage advisor and a heritage planner, and that the Heritage Advisory Committee notes that

Lack of consultation regarding the Livability Project has led to a less desirable outcome,

Less than desirable outcome, and requests that any other major projects be referred to the Heritage Committee early in the process and that engagement remains both frequent and ongoing for the life of the project.

Does that work? Madam Chair, I think there has been consultation, but it's been late. So I would suggest the delay, the delay in consultation with the Heritage Committee, where there was lots of conversations happening with community members and so on, but the Heritage Committee was not part of the discussion at all. Yep.

So, yeah.

Is anyone willing to move that? Jill and a seconder?

Jan.

Does anyone have any general business? Shane?

Through you, Madam Chair, a couple of quick questions, if I could. I was wondering if there was an update on the building that's been semi-demolished next to the Fitzroy in the mall, and also if there is any update on when they're going to start the works on the gathering in Catherine Street, if anyone has any of those answers.

Christopher?

Sorry, I can't remember the address at the moment. The property you're talking about next to the Fitzroy Hotel had a stop work order on it. I haven't seen any further— there was a development application put in, but I don't know what's happened with that at this stage. I have no further information. I don't know if that was returned. I'm sorry, I don't know all the precise details, but I have not seen more update information for that property at this stage. So I assume it's in a holding pattern at this stage. That's my understanding.

Are you satisfied that building's safe in its current condition, the way it is? There's some cracks up the front of it and that sort of stuff, and the windowsills seem to be cracking and that sort of stuff. I

Do believe the compliance people allowed for stabilisation to occur, so I'm not nervous about its condition at the moment if that's been allowed to happen.

And you did a number of visits to that site?

Early on in late 2023, yes, I did walk in that building briefly, but I haven't been inside that building since that time.

And the Catherine Street guttering, Jill, you had followed up with Will, but we don't know where it's up to now. I note that there has been some work. There has been some work around it, but it's still cordoned off. So that's something we'll just have to follow up. I had asked for an update following on from your councillor request, but I've not been given any information. So the short answer is we don't know, I think. We have to take it up with the Director of Infrastructure as to where it's going next. And I had another one that I'd thought of while you were talking,

Mary, and I'm hoping. I just wondered if there was, I know that recently the development approval passed for the Jolly Frog Hotel. That was mine. I'm just wondering if there's any updates around that. Has that been appealed or anything? And, you know, if the heritage aspects of that, if there's anything to report or update around that.

Do we have any information about that went to the Land and Environment Court, and the DA was revised during the court proceedings, is my understanding, to reduce the reason that Council had refused it was an overdevelopment of the site, and the RMS had also objected to the traffic management plans on the site. And that, so the, I

Think that that was then approved following the changes during the court proceedings. So a bit of a messy and very opaque process, I think, that leaves the community unable to look up. What's really going to happen there at this stage? We might have to take that on notice, I think . And maybe we can raise that when, I presume these minutes will come to Council in two weeks' time, and perhaps we can, yeah, if we haven't got that response, we might have to ask it in the Council meeting because we're running out of time to get information back on things like this. Deb?

Just a quick one. On the page 55, just going back quickly, the comment about managing the heritage items listing and stuff. One thing that I'm finding, looking back through the old, the current listing, is there are quite a few items there that are simply not there anymore. Is there any sort of, what's the best way of looking at removing those from the list?

Andrew, is that an update to the LEP? Heritage items that have been demolished, that have vanished?

Sorry, they're existing heritage items but they're no longer there is what— Yeah, well,

They're on the listing but they no longer exist. Yeah,

You're happy to

Through Madam Chair, yes, I've been in discussion with the strategic planners at Council, and I am making them aware of items that have been picked up. But if you have any that you're aware of that you could pass my way, I will definitely pass it on to them. But I have found some errors over my time here, and I've been documenting them, and they'll be passed on to the strategic planners. So I would be most welcome to receive any others that people are aware of. I

Was particularly looking at the other day the row of little houses in front of the plaza in Richmond. None of those are numbered or anything, and the numbers have all changed, and you have no way of telling which ones are actually there and which ones aren't which is a sideline. And then there's a couple of others that I know of here.

Great. Madam Chair, I had a question through you to Andrew, if possible. I'm talking of Australiana Piney Village and the heritage study that was done on that a few years ago now, as to where that's at, whether it's being progressed or what? What's the status, please?

You're referring to the Conservation Management Plan? Yep. So there's some, based on the draft that was received, there's some further input from internal sections of Council to just identify whether there's further changes required before it's formally presented back to the committee, because the committee has not actually seen that draft as yet. So we'll probably be in a position, probably early in the new term of the Heritage Committee, to present that updated Conservation Management Plan.

Thank you. Any other questions ? Items of general business?

No. Well, that brings us to the end of the meeting. This is the last meeting of this...

Committee, I'd like to thank you all for your interest and your expertise, and all the time and energy that you have given to this committee and to the working groups of this committee. It's the only committee that has community input on it. It's incredibly important. As Council was told in no uncertain terms when it was considering dropping this committee, the value that this committee gives to Council freely and willingly is beyond price. Thank you all for your commitment to heritage in the Hawkesbury. We are very grateful, even though sometimes we are not very good at showing it. I hope you all apply again. Thank you all, and good night.