Heritage Commitee Meeting - 6 March 2025

Welcome to the Heritage Committee meeting for the 6th of March 2025 and the first for this term of Council. My name is Andrew Kearns. I'm the Manager Strategic Planning at Council, and I have carriage of the meeting until a chairperson is elected. Hawkesbury City Council acknowledges the Darug and Darkinjung people as the traditional custodians of the land of the Hawkesbury. We pay respect to all Elders, past, present and emerging, and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of the country. Hello and welcome to Heritage Committee members. A number of you are returning community members, and welcome back to those members, and a warm welcome to our new community members as well.

A few procedural matters. Committee members and members of the public attending the meeting are advised that in the event of an emergency, you will be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit, following the guidance of our warden. I'd also like to advise that meetings of Council committees are recorded. In the terms of the Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, this may involve the recording of personal information provided at the time of the meeting. Recordings are made to assist staff in compiling the minutes of the meeting and to enable the podcasting and live stream of Council committee meetings. The provision of any information that is recorded is voluntary. If any person does not wish to be recorded, they should not address or request to address the meeting.

The gallery can be seen in the live stream video. If you do not wish to be recorded in the live stream, please move to the foyer and we will turn the foyer speakers on for you. The recordings may be made available to other persons where such access is in accordance with the relevant regulations. The recordings are stored on Council's record management system and uploaded to Council's website.

For the benefit of those persons who will be addressing the committee, it is expected that you will refrain from making any insult, allegation or personal reflection against any person present or not at this meeting. The request relates to both your address to the committee and any answers given in response to questions from committee members. It is also requested that if any person participating in or attending the meeting has a mobile phone, that they either turn it off or turn it to silent.

In terms of apologies, so we have apologies from Erin Wilkins, Michael Edwards and Deborah Hallam. I don't know if we have any further apologies. No.

As required by the code of conduct, committee members are required to disclose any pecuniary or non-pecuniary interests in relation to matters on today's agenda. Are there any interests to disclose?

Mr Chairman

I have three to disclose. One is 3.1.2/2, and that's the exhibition of the Slab Barn study.

Also, item 3.1.2.4 is the state listing of 394 George Street, Windsor, and 3.1.3.1.

It's the same as 3.1.2, being part of the Slab Barn study team.

Thank you. Councillor.

I have a pecuniary interest in 3.1.3 and 3.1.4.

Thank you. Councillor Jurick. I have a significant non-pecuniary interest in items 3.1.4. Sorry

Interested there,

Ready? Thank you. Yeah

I have a significant non-pecuniary interest in 3.1.4, the list of potential heritage items.

Thank you.

Yes, Carol Roberts. I have a conflict of interest in item 3.1.4 in that I live at 95 The Terrace.

Thank you. No other declarations? Okay, thank you. So as we progress through the meeting, when those particular items come up, the chairperson at the time will go through those declarations.

So we have no registered speakers for this committee meeting. So the first item for determination is the election of a chairperson.

This is the first meeting of the Heritage Committee. The first item of business is the election of a chairperson. The election of the chairperson will be conducted by me as the manager, Strategic Planning. Therefore, I call for any nominations for the chairperson of the Heritage Committee.

I'd like to nominate Councillor Wheeler for chair, if I could please.

I'll second that, Mr Chair.

Moved Councillor Djuric, seconded Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Do you accept the nomination?

Yes.

Are there any other nominations?

No.

There is only one nomination for chairperson, being Councillor Wheeler. In that case, I declare Councillor Wheeler as the chairperson of the Heritage Committee, and I will now hand over to Councillor Wheeler to chair the balance of the meeting

Thanks, Andrew. What I thought we might do before we go any further, given that we've got some new people here and we don't necessarily all know each other, is just do a quick whip around the room and in two sentences or less— Tell everybody who you are. Is everyone comfortable with that? If you don't want to do that, if you find that a bit confronting, or you don't want to do that because you're on a live stream, you can just say pass and we'll move on. So I'll start. My name is Danielle Wheeler. I'm the chair of the Heritage Committee. I'm one of the councillors and have been for the last eight years. This is my third term on council and my third term on the Heritage Committee as a councillor, although I was on it previously.

I live in an old house in Wilberforce, which I guess is probably my— was the catalyst for me getting interested in Hawkesbury's heritage when I first moved here. Christopher, do you want to go?

My name is Christopher Reeves. I'm Council's Heritage Officer. I've been Council's Heritage Officer since October 2021, so roughly just over three years. My background is basically a generalist heritage planner, but also specialising in stonemasonry as well. Thank you.

Thanks, Christopher.

Carol Roberts. I'm a professional historian, lifelong interest in the heritage, especially of the Hawkesbury, and currently doing a PhD through UNE in Armidale. Thanks. Jill.

I'm Councillor Jill Redden. I've been on council for 25 years, and this is my fourth term on Hawkesbury, and I'm very interested in heritage and history.

Thanks, Jill. Michelle.

My name is Michelle Nichols, and I'm the local history librarian at the council, but I'm just coming on this committee as a community member. Michelle, just

Pull your microphone a bit closer. Thanks.

I've worked at the library for 45 years, and I've always been very passionate about local and family history, particularly in the Hawkesbury.

Thanks. Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Carl Robinson. I'm delighted to be elected part of the committee, born and bred in the Hawkesbury and have an interest in everything heritage.

Thanks, Carl, and welcome. Jan.

I'm Jan Barclay-Jack, and I'm a historian . I'm just writing another book. I've written several, and I've had a lifelong interest in history. I'm president of the Hawkesbury Historical Society and belong to the National Trust and a lot of other groups. My husband and I, my late husband and I, had a heritage consulting firm, and I worked as a historian on conservation management plans for various groups like RTA and so forth.

Cheryl Ballantyne. I moved to the Hawkesbury into an old house, Wilberforce, about 13, 14 years ago now. Very interested in the Hawkesbury's history and was very involved in the fight to save the historic Windsor Bridge. This is my second term on the Heritage Committee. Thanks, Cheryl. Nathan.

I'm Nathan Zampranio. I was recently re-elected to my third term on Hawkesbury Council. I'm a school teacher by vocation. I can trace my own family history in the Hawkesbury back to the Third Fleet, and the preservation of our heritage is something that's very precious to me.

Shane.

Councillor Shane Jerick, and this is my second term on the Heritage Committee. Thanks.

Graham.

My name's Graham Eds. Formerly a conservation architect, retired in November last year, but I have undertaken many, many studies related to history of the Hawkesbury region and elsewhere in New South Wales. I guess I stay in Hawkesbury for 50-odd years.

I'm Councillor Lyons-Buckett. It's my fourth term on council, and I've got a deep interest in the history of this area. I'm a descendant of the Rose-Bathurst family, and I am really invested in watching how we can move forward and balance any growth here with preservation, with proper preservation and conservation of what is so valuable in this area in terms of its history and heritage, both First Nations and European.

My name is Richard Holcroft. I'm actually a painter and decorator. I've done work for some of you, and I've met some of you before. And my particular interest is I'd like restoring and maintaining old buildings and keeping them in the best condition possible so they are there for the next generation and many generations after.

Excellent, and welcome to you as well. So I think we've got three new members this term, which is terrific. We're missing a couple of people . Erin Wilkins. Oh, it's Venetia.

Yeah, and Venetia

Erin Wilkins, who's a Darug and Wiradjuri woman, who is currently interstate, I think. Valencia Wilson, another local , and who else have we? Oh, and Michael Edwards, who's a heritage advisor, and Deborah Hallam, who many of you know, who's another historian. So this is a large committee, but it has a wealth of experience and talent, and Council relies on you heavily for the expertise that you are willing to share with us. We frankly couldn't do what we need to do without your input. So thank you for putting your hands up, many of you, for many, many years now, so that we can preserve all of our heritage as we go forward. Some of the—

Boring bits we have to get through before we can get into the meat of the business paper include the code of conduct and the

Constitution of the committee. The committee doesn't have a deputy chairperson in the constitution, so we won't carry out an election for that position. In your information pack—or sorry, in your pack of business papers—you will find a copy of the committee's constitution and also the code of conduct. You are bound by that code of conduct, as it states in the business paper, as a member of Council's Heritage Committee. Please read the code of conduct. If there's anything in the code of conduct that you don't understand, you can get in touch with me or with Andrew or Christopher, and we can put you in touch with one of Council's governance officers so that they can answer any questions that you might have about your responsibilities under that code of conduct.

Some of the very basic parts of that: you must not speak on behalf of the Heritage Committee or present yourself as someone able to speak on behalf of Hawkesbury Council. If you want to speak about a matter that's before the Heritage Committee, you may do so, but you must identify that it is your own opinion and not the opinion of the Heritage Committee. You also must keep any confidential information that you are given. You must treat that as confidential unless you're notified otherwise. So you'll notice in the business paper today there's two attachments that are confidential, and they're confidential because they refer directly to people's homes, and so please be careful with that information.

I'm sure that that goes without saying for all of you, but I have to say it anyway. What's left, Andrew? That's it? Okay. So look, you take that home, have a read. If you've got any questions, come back. We will take it now as a given that you have read and understood and are now bound by those documents. I'll move the recommendation. Thanks, Mary. Could I have a seconder? Michelle, thank you.

Sorry, I'm just merrily scrolling through the business paper to the next.

Thank you.

All right. So we are now up to an update on the Hawkesbury Heritage Project.

Can we do the minutes of the last meeting?

Yes, we can do the minutes of the previous meeting because we've got enough people here, I think, who were in that. Thanks, Jill. And a seconder, Mary. Does anyone have any questions or comments on the minutes of the previous meeting? Gerald

I do, and it's point 3.1.1, which is about the Windsor Bridge, and there's a point there that was related to the historic bridge receiving a historical engineering marker through Engineers Australia. I do believe at the last meeting I clarified a kind of detail about that item, that prior to the last meeting we had received advice from the chair of the Engineers Australia Heritage Committee that the historic bridge is actually not eligible for a historic marker because there's not enough of it left. So what we've drafted is an application for it to be on the Engineers Australia website as an item of heritage interest, of engineering heritage interest. It won't get a marker.

So could I have someone move that the minutes be accepted without alteration, please? Are you happy to take that, Jill?

Madam Chair, I have a couple of items in the previous minutes too. I had a question in regard to the committee's recommendation of item 3.1.4, and one was to consider the need to employ a full-time heritage planner and full-time heritage advisor, and point two was to include early engagement with the committee for major projects with high heritage values. I just wondered if that had actually gone to Council, and what was the outcome of that, please.

The outcome was, as usual, we don't have enough money, for one. You'll be unsurprised to learn. Can I

Also highlight, in terms of item one particularly, the full-time heritage planner and full-time heritage advisor, the business cases were prepared for the 25-26 budget, so they are being considered as part of that process at the moment.

I wouldn't be hopeful, just quietly.

Madam Chair, I have one other, if I could, and I guess it's a correction. It's in regard to the Australiana Pioneer Village heritage study progress. The minutes actually state that the request was made for an update, which is correct, on the preparation of a draft conservation management plan. Well, it wasn't an update on that because the actual conservation management plan was completed in 2021. But there was representation from Council to actually ask the consultancy team, of which I am a member, to actually consider changing , or for Council to actually change some of the recommendations within that conservation management plan, and the consultancy team said no, and that was in August 2023, and since then there's been no further correspondence. So I'm not sure where that one's at.

Do we want to—

So we can make that correction in the minutes. Do we want to flag that as an item of business for the next heritage committee meeting?

Yes, please.

Yep. Right, so there'll be several alterations to the minutes. Is the mover still happy with that? Yes, and the seconder?

Yes, I'm happy

Thanks. So the seconder is Jill and— sorry, the mover is Jill and the seconder is Mary, with those alterations. For those members who were at that meeting, are you all agreed on the minutes? Thank you. We've just had Venetia arrive. Venetia, we've just done a quick run-around and said who we are, which you've missed, but you're welcome to watch the tape later. Would you like to just tell everybody who you are and how you ended up on the committee?

First of all, sorry I'm late, but I was at work. I'm Venetia Wilson. I've been living here for over 50 years, and I was on the Heritage Committee before, and I thought I would try and get back on it again because I think heritage has really stalled. Heritage protections and heritage promotion in the LGA has really stalled, and I think a lot of stuff is at risk.

Thanks. So we're now up to item— Chair, before we move on, can I just ask a question? Of course. Did the Bridge Working Group get reinstated? We'll do that in general business. We've got a couple of working groups that need to be reinstated. That one we'll do in general business. The other one is the Heritage Listings Working Group, and we'll do that when we get to that item.

Item. Before we start item 3.1.1, I'm just going to ask for someone to move from the floor.

I'll

Move a procedural motion that we do what? That we look at it in its components. Thank you. So item 3.1.1 contains four— sorry, 3.1.3, what did I say, four? Sorry, got ahead of myself. 3.1.3 contains four

Components, and so the motion is that we deal with each of those components separately. That will allow those of us with a conflict in one or more items to stay in the room for the items that we don't have a conflict in. So I'll look for a seconder for that motion. Councillor Zampronio, is everyone in favour of that? Thank you. So we'll deal with the first part of 3.1.1, which is the current status of the Local Heritage Assistance Fund. Who is speaking

To that? Christopher? Sorry, which item are we on now? You just said 3.1.1. Sorry

I'm 3.1.3. Sorry, I'm making my life even more difficult than it

Already is

3.1.3, the update on Hawkesbury Heritage Projects. The first point of that is the Heritage Assistance Fund. Sorry, I'll try and turn my brain on before I open my mouth.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just might like to preface my comments for the committee members that weren't here at possibly the last Heritage Committee meetings papers, but I did, in an item on the heritage strategy, I gave a good background about all the duties for the Senior Heritage Officer at Council, which gave a good understanding that it's very heavy in terms of operational duties. So I'd like to put that context when we talk about these— Additional , what I would call strategic items. So the first one is obviously the Local Heritage Assistance Fund, 2024-2025. Previously, the committee talked about utilising the opportunity that we've done a Hawkesbury timber slab barn study, as occurred previously with Council, that we would put funds specifically for the Local Heritage Assistance Fund towards critical repairs for barns.

And

Credit to this committee, that's what's been happening. And there was also a concept, first of all, of a much healthier fund of $100,000, and the second point has been considering

Items on a merit-based system and not necessarily on a dollar-for-dollar basis. This has been critical in my discussions with barn owners over this period when the fund's been open. So the fund is open until Sunday, and I've had great interest. As you'd expect, people are out there desperate to have all their heritage items helped, assistance with maintenance. So we are getting applications coming through that aren't related to barns as well. It's a sign of the need out there for maintenance to heritage items. So I just want to acknowledge that that's going well, and it's open until Sunday the 9th.

Thanks, Christopher. Mary, your light's on. Hello. Is that because you wanted to speak?

No, but as I ask, can I just ask, when will the outcomes of those be known, Christopher, and approximate time frame?

So we'll be reporting the applications to Council at the April meeting.

Jill? I think it's wonderful if they're worked out on a merit basis. That's far more practical.

Graham? Madam

Chair, out of the hundred thousand that was indicated, how much of that is actually coming from Council, and how much of that is actually coming from New South Wales Government?

All of the hundred thousand is coming from Council, bar about five grand, I think we get. We get five thousand dollars—five and a half, five and a half, it's gone up. Don't get excited. Five and a half thousand dollars comes from the New South Wales State Government, which is, yeah, they've been so generous over the last 10 years, they give us about that. It should be noted that Hawkesbury, with all the heritage that we have here, gets less than most LGAs who have far fewer heritage items. So, but thanks to the efforts of this committee on the last term of Council, Council substantially increased its heritage assistance funding. I think we used to have 20,000, was it? Oh, 40. It was 20. Yeah, it went to 40.

We put in an ambit claim for 100,000 and got it. I'm not quite sure what happened that night in Council, but we won't look a gift horse in the mouth. And that will make a substantial difference, I think. Graham?

Madam Chair, I recall that the committee did actually ask for representation to the New South Wales Government to increase their funding. Was that made?

Have we done that? Yeah, and Andrew?

Yes, we have made representations in that regard, yeah.

And no answer was received ?

No outcome. We've recently applied for the next two years of grant funding, but we're waiting to hear the outcome of that, but probably anticipating that it's probably going to be a similar quantum that we receive.

Mary? Madam Chair, I was going to ask a similar thing that Graham just asked, but I'm just wondering if the committee could recommend to the council that we do increase that advocacy through any other avenues that we may be able to. I'm sure the staff have accessed the various avenues they can, but as a council body, perhaps if we were to frame it in some other form and perhaps through any other channels, either on a regional or other way, that we could perhaps get our point across, because it's extremely unfair if other LGAs are all getting more than us when we have such significance here I think. Would you like to put some words into a motion? Okay, that the committee recommends council pursue— I'm not sure if there's anything on a regional basis.

Does anyone know? I'm thinking through either Parklands or, I know some time ago there was an initiative with Camden and Penrith and Liverpool, I think, to put out a joint heritage thing. I'm just wondering how these other various LGAs are getting more. Maybe it's more around trying to find out why—these aren't the words, sorry— maybe trying to find out why other people are getting, is it population-based? Is that what it's based on? Because it can't be based on the significance. No. Maybe we should leave that then until we maybe just get a little bit more information about that.

I think you could just pursue additional heritage funding

Pursue additional heritage funding . I think we've had that before

Via

Further advocacy, and leave that open. Okay, and by the time it comes to the council meeting, as councillors, we can perhaps have found. I'd be really keen, though, to actually understand the reasoning of how the state government is allocating that funding, on what basis they are actually coming up with those figures. Some of it I think is ad hoc. I'm sure it is.

Yeah.

So I think we've got some words that basically say that the committee recommends council pursue additional heritage funding from the state government, from the New South Wales government, through increased advocacy. Are you happy with that, Mary?

Yes.

You'll second that? Could I have someone who isn't a councillor second it? Thanks, Graham.

Madam Chair, I was going to add to that.

Does anyone think that it would be worthwhile going directly to the Australian government, at a federal level, as we have so many state items and ones that are of potentially national significance here, that we wouldn't necessarily need to go through the state body, but go directly to them. So

Do you want to suggest some words, or would it be something like, Council make direct representation to the federal government requesting additional heritage assistance funding?

Yeah, I'd actually put in through our federal member, put it through the federal member to— To whoever is the appropriate person.

Council approach the federal member, Susan Templeman MP, seeking additional heritage assistance funding from the federal government.

Yeah, I think so, but we need to actually highlight the number of state and potential national items within this LGA.

So then add on to federal government due to the high level of significance of heritage items in the Hawkesbury LGA. Does that work, Graham?

Madam Chair.

Yes.

Yeah. In the spirit of constructive input, I agree that it would be good to go to every available source, but I think our case will be stronger if we attach a list of projects or items where heritage funding is deficient, and that entails additional work, doesn't it? So whether we can commission a report or whether we merely recommend to the chamber that they get staff to commission a report that bolsters our case, I just want us to put our best foot forward, that's all. It's possible that, I think

It's possible that we could use the— we've got, there's plenty of, actually plenty of information in this business paper. I think you could attach the draft Slab Barn study and even if it was the list and condition of the potential heritage items, plus the numbers of the existing heritage items. We've already got the details in the Slab Barn study of how many we are recommending for state listing. We know how many state-listed items we've got. We know how many other listed items we currently have with a— A lot more to add to that, and we've got additional information like the condition and requests that are coming in through the Heritage Assistance Fund. So I think we could just attach, probably attach those rather than

Compiling. I agree. I just think our case is stronger when we, instead of just asking for money generally, we can be more specific, and we can attach, you know, our desire to fund a heritage person, the thing that we have in the budget but which may not eventuate. Well, money may

Be

Granted

For that purpose. So look, I think we've got enough information probably in this business paper, and whoever does the pleading can probably take that.

I'm quite confident that the staff now get the sense of what we're asking for in this motion. Thank you. Great,

Thanks. So, Mary, are you happy with those words, and do you have a seconder? Yes. Graham. Thanks. Is everyone in favour of that motion? Okay, so that's 3.13. 1 dealt with. We'll now move on to 3.1.2, which is the current public exhibition of the Hawkesbury Timber Slab Barns and Outbuildings Update Study. I have a pecuniary interest in that item in that my principal place of residence is part of that study, so I will step down from the chair and leave the meeting and hand over to Council Online's bucket to sort that out, just to take over as chair, and I shall go outdoors. I'm out for one and back, and then I'm out again. Do you want to do 3.1.1? Yeah, yeah, because the other one's a whole different item. And then once you're up here, Graham's on.

Procedural question, Madam Chair. I do not object, but I believe that it's good form for the chamber to elect a person to temporarily fill the chair rather than just shout out to somebody.

You can do that in 3.1.4.

Thank you. Madam Chair, before you leave, were you assuming that we would vote on these at— oh, we did just vote on that one, sorry. Okay.

Thank you. This is point 2 of 3.1.3, which is, yeah, somebody to speak to this? Christopher,

Thank you. Madam Chair, before that happens, I need to actually declare an interest as being part of the study team for the Slab Barn study.

Thank you.

Okay, we'll hand over to Mr Reeves to give us a rundown on the Slab Barn study.

Thanks, Madam Chair. So the study was reported to Council on the 10th of December, who endorsed its public exhibition.

Public exhibition started with a Have Your Say, a dedicated Have Your Say page, on the Tuesday, the 28th of January 2025, and it will accept submissions until Sunday, the 9th of March 2025. Just a couple of points to say why this study was important is, if we look at what the study found, it was going off the back of a 1991 study for Pitt Town. It was going off the back of a Hawkesbury-wide study in 2.10. This study found that there'd been 11 demolitions in that time frame since we've got this update study in 2023 to 2025. So that's 11 demolitions they found, seven substantially collapsed, six either totally reconstructed or interpretations of earlier barn. So this, in conjunction with the Local Heritage Assistance Fund, just explains why this is such a significant study and why it was so important for Council to fund this work. So that's

Really all I wanted to say, but I'll just say one last thing. So of the barns that were studied in this update study, over 48 of those are pre-1870, which is quite remarkable. In any local government area I've ever worked in, to have that statistic is quite remarkable. So if we needed a case that this place is special, that figure really says it all.

It does. Thank you for that. We'll open it up for discussion around that, if there is any. Can you just let us know, have there been many submissions, and were they mainly from owners or people who were directly contacted or from general public?

I've had— Three direct submissions. I haven't been advised about what submissions that have gone to the Have Your Say page, but I've been directly given two submissions from property owners. One person approached me from the Rec Stub Symposium and had some additional historical information after, because what we took the Rec Stubs, and I'm probably shooting myself in the foot for a later item on this, but the Rec Stubs were used as an opportunity to really tell the public about the exhibition of the slab barn study. So they looked at the study that day and actually gave me feedback that night. Oh

Wonderful. Yeah that's fabulous. So it will return to Council before too long, I would think, in a few months.

Mr ...? No, we're actually reporting in April.

Oh, April, yes. Okay. Has anyone got any other discussion? Jill? I

Was just wondering, seeing it's such a wonderful study, does the time need to be extended

For it?

I think it's already closed, but—

No, it closes on this weekend. Yeah, yeah, and that's, yeah, I guess... Yeah, that's when it's closing. We've contacted all property owners that were identified in that particular study, so they have had the opportunity to, and I guess we would, I guess, yeah, really like to get on and adopt the study so we can move on the recommendations in that. Yeah

I think that's probably adequate because it is quite a niche area, so people with an interest would no doubt have been aware that it was on exhibition. Any further discussion?

No. Would someone like to move the recommendation, which is to note the... Move Councillor Reardon and seconded Jan Barclay-Jack, or did you have discussion? You're just moving. Thank you. All those in favour? Thank you . Well , I'd better let Councillor Whelan come back, shall I, or we could have done her other thing while she was out

Okay. So now we are up to 3.1.3, Part 3, which is to note the advice from Council's— this is the Windsor Toll House and Tebbutt's Barn. And you'll notice one of the attachments is photos of the toll house and a report on Tebbutt's Barn. Christopher, are you speaking to this?

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, at the request of the committee, the toll house was inspected by myself and Council's consultant heritage advisor, who is obviously an expert in conservation work.

I mentioned I've got the photos, which you would have seen, hopefully. It is in a poor state. It was quite unsafe to even enter the building. The flooring— you'll notice my photos are very a little bit wonky. That's because my flooring, the flooring was so bad that I couldn't take a really good photo. I blame the conditions, not my photography skills. But yes, it is in very poor condition, as noted by Council's consultant heritage advisor. Our expert heritage advisor has recommended that they provide—

Basically ,

Sorry, where is it?

Apologies, I've just lost my space. Yes.

So, first of all, agreed to become involved in this matter and prepare an options study which talked about potential uses, but potential options given that it is subject to flooding. It is a really difficult aspect of this site that it's Yes. —a use that, and it's also in a hidden location partly, and that's the challenges faced by this particular location. So, but we haven't received that document yet from our consultant heritage advisor, and we'll follow that up. Did you want me to go onto Tebbitts Barn,

Madam Chair? Sorry, does anyone have any questions, Michelle?

I just wanted to mention that I just recently catalogued some photographs on the library's database of images that were taken of the Toll House in 1988. I think that was just prior to when they did the— Council did the current work, and there's some good images of the interior which might be good for comparison.

Would you like Michelle to forward those to you? Thanks. Vanesha.

I'm fairly concerned that the Toll House has still in this state and gotten even worse, because it was almost 10 years ago when I requested access to it, and I was told I could get access to it, and then I was told I couldn't, and the doors were screwed shut. And it appears nothing has been done in this amount of time. I also recall my very first heritage committee meeting in, I think, 2015, where the toll house was— we were talking about heritage walking tours and heritage walking tour signage—and that the toll house got removed, that whole toll house area, because the area was in a mess and we didn't want to send people down there. Now, it's still not cleaned up. Nothing has been done in this amount of time.

So, waiting for a report about potential options. By the time we get that report back and it goes to council again and it goes through, I can't see anything ever happening with the toll house. So what I'd like to see is council actually doing something about it, rather than waiting for a study about potential uses. Can we at least shore it up? There's really bad cracks in the walls. I would imagine the next flood that comes through, it's in danger of collapse.

Do you want to move something to that effect, that at the moment the recommendation is that we receive and note, awaiting the options report? Do you want to change that? Do you want to put up an alternate recommendation?

Yeah, I'd like to recommend, rather than receiving and noting, that some remediation work, make-safe work, gets done on the toll house as soon as possible,

So that we don't end up with another Tabbit's Barn scenario.

Do we have a seconder for that motion? Jill

Any other comments regarding the Toll House? I'll just pause that motion there. Mary.

Oh no, I was going to speak to Venetia's motion. Go ahead. I think that's a really good idea. I think that what we've learnt from the past is that if we don't take immediate action, or if we don't push for immediate action, and I understand that we are constrained by funding and by resources to do that, but when it comes to buildings such as this, if we can't get some sort of intervention at a stage to prevent further deterioration, we're really not sticking to our obligations as we should be.

Hear,

Hear. Shane.

I just wanted to thank the committee for recognising that it needed to be investigated, and I want to thank Venetia for putting that forward. I think we need to do some immediate work as soon as possible, and hopefully we can get some money forward to sort that out before we lose it.

Thanks. For those of you who are new to the Heritage Committee, these recommendations will come in the Heritage Committee business papers to Council for consideration. What would be terrific when that comes to Council is if members who felt strongly about these motions came in and spoke, came in and addressed Council at that Council meeting and made those points to the other councillors who aren't here. Those of us who are here can certainly have input or lead that debate, but it's really helpful for Council to know that members of the committee, not just councillors, are passionate about these things and are pushing for ways forward and a greater commitment from Council, particularly as we move into the budget cycle.

Mary . Just adding to that, just to expand a little on that, as we all know, Council is always pushing to find funds. So, as Danielle said, it does really help us, though, to prioritise and to see the community invested in getting some money towards this is extremely helpful. Graham.

Madam Chair, I just wanted to let the meeting know that this is one of only two remaining toll bars in New South Wales. Now, I don't know whether there are any others throughout Australia, because I haven't done that sort of research, but the only other one is up in the Blue Mountains. What's the name of the town up there? Mount Victoria, that's it, right on the side of the road. But this one is actually far more, I guess, prominent, and certainly with its faceted architecture to actually view oncoming and going vehicles, no matter what they were, horse-drawn or vehicular. It makes it quite important and quite unique in the style of

Well, just in that style. So I think, you know, I certainly commend Venetia in bringing this forward, but I do sort of pause and think we're between a rock and a hard place because of the position that it's in and that stupid bridge that was actually constructed in front of it, which lessens its significance as far as I'm concerned, but its location is still there. We do know that because of the work that I did on that particular building when I was doing my master's, that that building was actually swept off its foundations back in 1816 or whatever, and it was actually reconstructed in 1834. So it actually has had a major misdemeanor then, but it's actually lasted since that time.

Thanks, Graham. Michelle, and then Jan.

I just wanted to say that I think, I believe that the Windsor Toll House is the oldest. The one at Mount Victoria is 1848 or 1849.

I'll agree with that, that it is the oldest, but there's only two.

Jan?

I do recollect, and I have no idea when, but at some stage over the last 50 years, there had been an idea that we look, that to try and get the Toll House to be in a more

Prestigious way was to look at that whole area going underneath the bridge, behind the jolly frog, and to move the stone marking the first burial ground, which was placed inadvertently on the wrong site. And I have the proof of that, and I have talked to Council about that, but it hasn't progressed. So if the idea was that if we looked at that as some sort of a park, that became an area that people could go to and see several historical things, then that might make it more useful and more interesting for people. And I know this presents problems now because I know the jolly frog would have to —well, I'm not sure where they stand, but it used to be public land, whether they'd donate it back to be part of that sort of scheme, and certainly to get the memorial moved or assigned to at least say that it's on the wrong site. Would be a way of improving access to the Toll House.

Christopher, is that likely to come up in the options report, or is the options report just dealing with the potential conservation of the building ?

Some of the items that were discussed on site related to potential purchase of land near there to open up the access to the courthouse. Like there's a residential property fronting the courthouse. There appeared to be—Toll House, sorry—it appeared to be near, able to be potentially some land purchase, but then you're talking a significant amount of money, perhaps. So some of the other issues was storage related to flooding. These were the sorts of issues that were discussed on site, and what use—it's very constrained building with limited openings. That was another issue that came up. There was a range of issues about what would be a suitable use for such a small building, what sort of additions perhaps could occur near that, or those are the sorts of issues that were thrashed around, which I expect to be discussed in the options report.

Sorry, can I just speak to some of that ? Again, 10 years ago, there were a whole range of discussions around things that could be done at the Toll House . There should be paperwork that talks about all that—the potential issues, the potential uses. We're just rehashing old ground, going over it yet again if nothing's going to be done. And

I think what's more urgent at the moment is clearly from these photos. The structural integrity of the building. And what I don't want to see is this getting muddied by what are we going to, you know, do with it in the future. Won't be doing anything with it in the future if it falls down. So really , I'd like to see a motion go through that we push as hard as possible to get some funds in order to do, at least make safe repairs to that building . Bring the public on board, create some sort of GoFundMe campaign, if you like, Friends of the Toll House, whatever, people to come and actually do works. And I know there's a whole heap of bureaucratic issues around that, but other places do it. We should be able to do it as well . As a training option for apprentices learning heritage trades. There's all sorts of ways you could cut costs on it.

Christopher, is it likely that the options report will be available for the next Heritage Committee meeting?

We will seek that, Madam Chair. So

Perhaps if we have this as an item for discussion on the next committee, the next Heritage Committee meeting, we can thrash out some of that. We can start looking at some of those funding source suggestions, as well as the suggestion of that precinct work .

So discuss the precinct work. Just hang on a sec, Jan. Yep. So discuss the precinct work at the next meeting, but move this motion to request funds for urgent make safe repairs to the building now.

Yes. Yep.

That's, I

Think

That's a

Separate issue, Jan. Madam Chair, I just wanted to make the point that I think that— If you see this as part of a bigger plan that will have advantage to the public, even though this will be step one to do the conservation on the toll house, and that's all you're looking at at the moment, but I think if it's presented as part of a wider plan, then there's more impetus to do that rather than just conserving this building that keeps getting washed, you know, every time there's a flood. So I think it's important that we have some sort of bigger plan that looks at later, after the conservation's been done.

And what we do know of heritage conservation, of course, is that if something is used, it's far more likely to be conserved and in a higher condition than if it's just held up and the door shut. So what we've—

Mary, did you have your light on? I probably did. I was just thinking to capture all of that, that of course we do, I agree, we do need the big plan, but I think we need to perhaps seek commitment when it goes to council, like for the committee to seek the commitment that a priority is to work towards the structural integrity of that building as a priority, and then of course all the other will come as well, because it is essential that we don't have it deteriorate further or we'll be doing a whole lot of work around it. So

Do you have some other words, or are

You happy? I think Phoenicia's wording works okay. I'm just sort of saying I don't want—I think all of it's really good and we need to do all of it, but I think that if we have any opportunities around it, the priority would be to see if we can get some sort of money to at least shore it up so that it's not going to be vulnerable to whatever is going to next confront us. So the

Words we have are that Council conduct make-safe work on the Toll House as soon as possible, and I think that's probably part one. And then part two is that the Heritage Committee discuss options for the Toll House for both conservation and use at the next Heritage Committee meeting. Are you happy with that, Venetia, as the mover? And did we have a seconder for that? I think it was Jill. All in favour? Thanks . And the other part of this item is Tebbetts Barn, which is a Sorrento Estate, Graham, your lights on.

Yeah, it is on.

I'll leave it till later.

Okay. Christopher

The report, Madam Chair, the report that was sent to the committee mentioned that the Council's heritage advisor found the site to be extremely neglected, with vegetation and unsafe to enter, and it was concerned that as summer is approaching at that time, that there needs to be urgent cleanup work around the building . The

Consultant heritage advisor was advised of previous estimates for work to that building, and they were in the vicinity of close to $500,000. There was an alternative that was presented to earlier from Council staff that brought that figure down substantially around the $100,000 mark if it involved Council staff working with local tradespeople. Council's heritage advisor thought it would be useful to compare the deterioration to the barn since those earlier studies were done, and that there may need to be input from a structural engineer or a quantity surveyor. And Council's heritage advisor thought that this is basically a broader review at this time, but at least to allow for the stabilisation of the barn in the short term, and then to talk about moving on from there.

But it's clear that there is work to be done on that barn quite urgently.

Questions or comments? Graham.

Madam Chair, this is really recapping what we've been talking about before, that Council's lack of attention to buildings that they own and should be cherished. After that storm, which actually caused a fair bit of the demise of that building, I think there was a recommendation by somebody that the roof actually be dismantled and stored on site. Well, how it's been stored on site is just absolute rubbish because all they've done is put it on the ground, put timbers in contact with the ground, and put a tarp over the top. And of course, how many years ago was that? And the tarp is no longer any good at all, so we've got rotting timber, rotting historic fabric just laying there. And the Slab Barn study did actually identify all of that.

I think you actually have the information that you need, and I guess I can go back quite a few years when I had a discussion with Council about preparing a study for the conservation of that building, and that's when it still had its roof and was in pretty good condition. And I did indicate to Council that why don't you actually do some shoring up work rather than another bloody report . But that obviously didn't happen, and so we've got the demise that has occurred. And I think it's absolutely disgusting that Council actually doesn't look after its own and actually lead the way for the conservation of buildings in the Hawkesbury.

Mary, and then Venetia. Thanks, Madam Chair. I thought when we did discuss this last year that we moved to something, or we suggested that we could request that the timber was lifted off the ground and stored above ground. Has that occurred?

No, not to my knowledge.

Venetia.

I'd just like to agree with Graham that it really is quite disgusting that Tebbutt's Barn is in the state it's in. We seem to have never-ending funds for gas lamps in Windsor Mall, all sorts of decorative things going on. But the heritage just gets lost, and this is the prime example of how a council should not

Be dealing with heritage. And it's a very good example of how not to be an example to your community. We ask people to apply for amounts of funds for heritage grants. At the moment, we have it on a merit basis, but generally it's dollar for dollar, when it's quite

Ridiculous that council would even suggest that anyone has to contribute dollar for dollar for any heritage funds when council doesn't seem to contribute a dollar to their own heritage . Again, ten years ago, this was on a number of agendas at heritage committee meetings, and we now have the situation where Tebbutt's Barn is pretty much pancaked and rotting. So I totally agree with Graham. It's beyond a joke.

Thank you. So, do you want to put forward a motion to go to Council?

Madam Chair, I think it would be worthwhile, similar to the motion about the toll bar,

Is it at least the historic fabric should be conserved, or actually be not conserved, but actually put in a position where it actually won't further deteriorate. And that's again level one.

So what words would you like

Look, you've voiced that ‘disgust’ was the word that you used. Do you want to put that into a motion, that the committee is disgusted by the state of Tebbutt's Barn

And recommends that Council immediately undertakes conservation work for this building? That's what I'm hearing from you. Is that—

Well, I think perhaps the words, the leading role in conservation of historic barns. You know, here we are wanting to fund barns throughout the district , and we've given a hundred thousand for that. Can

You

Give me

Some words for the minute secretary?

I'm not good at those words. Can someone help me out there? Madam

Chair, I think what you suggested encapsulated most of it. Does the secretary have those? Could you bring those back ?

Yes. So do

You want to see it

That the committee is discussed by the State of Tebbets Barn and recommends that Council undertake conservation work for this building.

And, sorry, Mary, go on. Particularly the correct storage of the various stuff that's on site, because that would be reasonably easy, I think.

Particularly the correct storage of the materials on site and acts consistent with their leading role in the conservation of Hawkesbury's heritage. Is that—

Well, Hawkesbury Barns, really what it comes down to.

Hawkesbury Timber Barns

Because that one is really very significant. It's very early.

Yeah.

Although the study couldn't confirm as early as Jan Barkley-Jack and myself think it is, we couldn't actually fully determine that by particular evidence. But , yeah, well, the significance is there to actually warrant what we're suggesting

Well, it's significant because of its context as well, I think. Jan

I think the word immediately for the conservation needs to be added

Sorry, can we go back and read what we've got now and work out where we're putting immediately.

The committee is disgusted by the state of Tebbetts Barn and recommends that Council undertakes conservation work for this building, particularly the correct storage for materials on site, and acts consistent with their leading role in the conservation of Hawkesbury's timber barns. So, conservation of

Hawkesbury's timber barns, and immediate needs to go in the section where materials on site is. Immediate materials on site. I mean , just before, just read that section again, sorry. That's okay. I want to take immediate.

Yes

Thank you. Thank you, Richard.

So who's moving that section ? Graham.

And a seconder, Venetia. Oh, loads of seconders. So we've got a two-part motion, because this item deals with both Tebbetts and the Toll House.

So do you have both? Could I have you read both of those items, both of those recommendations together, and then I'll ask the committee to vote.

Madam Chair, before you do that, could I ask a procedural question? Certainly Seeing as I was involved in the slab barn study and the study of that particular building, should I leave the room for that part of the discussion?

Managing your conflicts of interest is up to you. If you feel that you have a pecuniary interest, then yes, you should leave the room. But only you can determine that.

Madam Chair, I guess on this one, because there's no money involved, I don't think I have that sort of interest. Then

You can declare a non-significant interest and stay in the room, if you feel more comfortable doing that.

I'll do that. Okay.

Okay, so you've got a non-significant interest. You'll need to fill out yet another yellow form, a non-significant interest in item 3.1.3, item 3. Are we up to 3? The Toll House and Tebbutt's Barn.

But it's non-significant, so you can stay in the meeting. Okay. Could I get you to read those two?

So 3A, that Council conduct and make safe work on Windsor Toll House as soon as possible. B, that the Heritage Committee discuss options for the Windsor Toll House for both conservation and the use at the next Heritage meeting. And that was resolved on Ms Venetia— That was Venetia Wilson , and Councillor Read and seconded.

Councillor

Read and seconded, and then the second— And the second point. So that the committee is disgusted by the state of Tebbutt's Barn and recommends that Council undertakes immediate conservation work for this building, particularly the correct storage for the materials on site and acts consistent with their leading role in the conservation of Hawkesbury's timber barns. And who— and we had, that was moved by—

Yes, Graham Edwards and seconded by Venetia Wilson. Is everyone in favour of that? Thank you. Well, now move on to 3.1.3 .4, which is—

Sorry, the State Heritage listing of 394 George Street, Windsor. So you'll see, for those of you who weren't here last time, 394 George Street, Windsor is that spectacular shopfront down towards the station on a sandstone building with the quite extraordinary sandstone carving with the cherubs and things. If you haven't seen it in the flesh, you really should. It really is a beautiful piece of work, conserved largely because it sat predominantly unobserved up under a veranda that you only really see it if you're walking past and going to the print shop or somewhere else along there. Christopher, are you speaking to this?

Thank you, Madam Chair. So we've been trying to gather some information on the building. We employed Terry Cass, our historian, to research the history of the building. I was also gratefully received information from one of our committee members, Jan Barclay-Jack. I also received information from Carol Edwards, chairperson from the Hawkesbury branch of the National Trust of Australia. I do believe, though, that I will need to seek out a bit more information to give this matter the best chance of success, and that will have to continue during my time amongst other projects.

Questions or comments? Graham.

Madam Chair, I just wanted to declare a non-significant pecuniary interest, seeing as my wife did actually on behalf of— The Hawkesbury Branch and the National Trust provide information on that building.

So that was a non-pecuniary, did you say? Yes , thank you. Thank you. Anyone have any other questions or comments on this item?

Jill?

I was really fascinated when I read the history of it. I think it's a wonderful place, and it's absolutely beautiful work. And reading the study, it says they also constructed the Boer War Memorial. Yes. And so it's absolutely fascinating.

It is. It's quite a, I think one of the things that this adds to a picture, I think, of the significance of the Hawkesbury in terms of its capacity to attract craftsmen of an extraordinarily high calibre. And there are all the Toll House is another fine example, I think, of, you know, we think now of the Hawkesbury as being this little place on the edge of Sydney, but actually when you look at these buildings that were magnificent in their time and the links with work done in Sydney, as it points to the Hawkesbury as a really significant place, which we're all aware of, but I think gets forgotten by people who don't necessarily have our interest in heritage and history. And it's the most extraordinary example of workmanship. Anything further on this item? Jan?

Christopher, I think that one of the things that would shore it up would be to look closely at the remaining evidence within the cemeteries, the cherubs and the really intricate. . . Ivy and flower decorations on graves that, well, I haven't looked for a few years, but they used to be easily seen in Mark Robinson. They're there, and they're part of that evidence that shows a wider integration into the community, and they're really spectacular evidence of graves that came about because not just of this house, but the entire business, which was so important to this district, and it's at least three cemeteries.

Michelle, do you? I can supply with some examples of the headstones.

Christopher. Thank you very much. Anything further? So I think the recommendation is to receive and note the report . Could I have someone move that way, please? Jill and a seconder, please. Cheryl. Thank you. Okay, on to 3.1.3.5, which is the Rex Stubbs Symposium.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to give a brief overview. One of our committee members, Michelle Nichols, was on part of that Rex Stubbs Symposium. It really is a wonderful opportunity to hear some really inspiring stories from guest speakers, but also a great opportunity for local history-focused groups to come together, enthuse one another with some information, and a great opportunity for Council to Talk about some of the projects we're involved in, so it was a really positive day.

Thanks. It's an annual event. You're all welcome to attend next year. And each of the, for those of you who haven't been before, each heritage group from the area and from surrounding areas, I think from Riverstone and Hills and Blue Mountains, also have a bit of a catch-up session in the afternoon about what their local group has been doing as well. It's a

Really interesting day. Mary? Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Christopher. It is a wonderful day. I'm just wondering if it is recorded and available to watch because unfortunately this year there was, I had to go to three different council events on that day and couldn't get to that. I'm just wondering, no, not recorded. Maybe in the future, would that be a possibility of recording the speakers? I know that's sometimes difficult, but—

It's very difficult in that size of room and—

Yeah. But we could investigate. Or even the speech, you know, a copy of the speech if they're giving something specific about a particular work that's done, like Unas, for example, or something like that. It would be really interesting to see because I was very sorry to miss it. But unless we can get to clone ourselves, which would be everyone's dream come true, then we're not going to necessarily get to it. And also on that note, Madam Chair, I have to apologise because I actually have to leave. I have to go to another meeting, so I apologise that I shall have to leave. Sorry.

You can be excused.

Yeah, I missed—I didn't get to any of those three events because I was at a funeral. So, yeah, I was really sorry to miss it. It's always a really informative day , and it's actually, it's—I went home from the last one where there was a fantastic presentation on caring for, or conserving, small artefacts that you had linen and paper and things like that, and I went home with a much greater appreciation for the family bits and pieces that I've ended up with as the only child, and they've all lobbed up at my place. I also had much greater appreciation for my air conditioner and found grand excuses to turn it on to suck the humidity out of my house, which everyone else was pleased about because I've always been the air conditioner Nazi at home and telling everyone else to turn it off. That's amazing what you get out of the Rex Stubb Symposium.

I think that's just to receive a note. Could I have someone move that way? Councillor, you've had lots, Jill. You can have a rest. Councillor Zampronio and Councillor Reden as the seconder.

The seconder. The next item is item 3.1.4, the Hawkesbury Potential Heritage Items Project. I have a conflict of interest and will therefore leave the room. Councillor Zamproni, would you like to take over the chair

No, because you've got to be up here for the broadcast, so no, you... Could

I just say that this is the first time in nearly nine years I'm sitting in the big chair?

I didn't promise not to let it go to my head.

All right then. So we have item 3.1.4, Hawkesbury Potential Heritage Items Project. Is that correct? That's correct. All right then. Okay. So the recommendation is to note the current status of the Potential Heritage Items Project. Would you like to speak to this?

Mr Chair, sorry.

I believe I need to declare an interest in this one, significant non-pecuniary, so I should leave the room. Is that right? Yes.

All right then. Thank you. Also leaving the room. Thank you very much. Mr Chair, I'd like to... Anyone else? Yeah, I'd like to disclose a significant non-pecuniary interest. I've got long-term association with a business that operates out of a building that's mentioned in the report, so I'll be leaving. And I'll also like to give my apologies for general business afterwards. I need to go to another meeting, so I shall leave.

All right then. Thank you for your attendance, Councillor Jurek . Yes

I also have, well, I own one of the houses that's listed in the report, so I should leave. If

You believe you should, then you are also excused. Thank you very much. Is there anyone else? All right then. I believe we still have a quorum, so we will proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thought it might be helpful just to briefly go through how did we get to this point for this particular project. So we had a previous community heritage study, and through my engagement at Council, it was an opportunity to, and with COVID halting that particular study, it was an opportunity to revisit and just see how those objectives were lining up with what our community objectives were. And we found a bit of a disconnect between what the study would have produced and what the community would like to see, which was a focus on heritage listing buildings out there that are unprotected. So we came up with these, a dual approach, which was to do the timber slab barn study, but also to attack the potential items project internally with some help from an historian.

So that's what we've progressed with. I included in your package of information a number of histories that have been done by Dr. Terry Cass, that's in I think it was 83 or so histories that we will take. We have created shells, like heritage inventory shells, which are compatible with the state heritage inventory. We have populated those as much as we can, added the history to them, but we still need to do more work to that, and we have been seeking some additional help to make that happen. But the plan, and also separate to that, we uncovered that there are something in the order of about 100 completed sheets arising from the 2001 and 2007 study that could be progressed as part of this work.

So there's something around the figure of about 300 potential items that we could progress, not including the items that will be progressed under the timber slab barn study. So there's quite a body of work that we can progress. We were doing it previously through a working group, and I believe that's the way forward, that we should decide , do we do it in small job lots and it goes to a working group and we work through those items, and then they're progressed as planning proposals, because there will be a planning proposal arising from the timber slab barn study for the potential items out of that. So that's the suggestion that perhaps the way forward is, when we can do a manageable amount, we present it to the working group and then move forward from there.

Thank you very much. I'll open this up for debate, but in order to do so I'd need a motion. The recommendation is to simply note. Is somebody prepared to move that form of words or something similar? So we have Councillor Reardon and Michelle moving and seconding that for the purposes of debate. Is there any comment? Any debate? Any input?

I'm wondering, do we need to give any of these a priority, like the toll house?

The toll house is already listed. That's correct, through Mr Chair. The toll house is already— yes, there would be houses that would be under threat, for example. I believe the soldier settlement houses, being of light timber construction, a lot of them , could be potentially picked off for people who may want to demolish them. They would be the ones I believe you should prioritise.

Does that satisfy you, Councillor? All right then. Is there any other further comment? Graeme.

Mr Chairman, I think also, seeing as there is a lot of time gone under the bridge since these studies, 2007 and the like, that there have been other studies that are of later ilk, and perhaps there should be some sort of reference between the original listing and any further study that's happened on that particular site, just to bring it up to date, but also to make it, I guess, fulsome in

Its presentation. Okay, Graeme, are you prepared to simply offer that as a comment for staff to note, or would you like to alter and amend the motion?

I think it's just a comment at this point in time, and I'm sure that Christopher Reeves will actually take that on board and action it. Okay, thank you, Graeme. Venetia.

I did read through what was sent to me, but I couldn't see an answer to this question. So do we know that all of the potential items are actually still existing? Because I know there's quite a number in Richmond that got disappeared overnight by private certifiers, particularly around Lennox Street.

There's been desktop analysis of the ones that— That we've got histories for from Terry Cass. I can't say the ones that are in the heritage management system have gone through, but I do know the ones that we've got the histories for from Terry Cass do still exist.

Does that conclude your questions, Venetia? All right then. Yes.

Christopher , the National Trust is conducting national trust studies at the moment on properties in Richmond. Well, it's been too hot, but we're going to start again shortly. So if there's any there that are on your list that you would like confirmation of still being there, if you give me a list, I'll include that. I'll look as we're going and we can refer that back to what you're doing as well.

Through, Mr. Chair, I'm just not sure of the confidentiality issues, but yes, if that's possible, if I can clear that. Well, we

Can at least tell you if they're still there.

Yep. All right then.

If there's no further comment

Mr.

Chairman, I have one other further comment. I just note that one of the listing sheets actually looks at the Wilberforce Town Road layout, and I was a little bit surprised at that as to have that come up as a forerunner to perhaps the listing of the Macquarie Towns layout for each of the individual towns. And I just wonder if that couldn't be included as one of these. Chris?

I believe we have gone through this previously, and there was— Obviously, difficulties with the state heritage people supporting that approach. I'm worried about the resources that Council has available with the one person that I am to make all this happen. And my suggestion would be to focus on our potential items at this stage, the ones that we know that we can deal with as local items, I suppose that's what I would suggest at this stage.

I guess my only comment, Mr Chairman, is that Wilberforce is one of those Macquarie towns, and if there's an issue, then why are we pursuing that one?

Through Mr Chair, I was simply showing the committee what's available in that heritage management system. They haven't all been completely filtered. I was just basically showing what was available, that we would progress on a case-by-case basis through our subgroup. It was just meant to show you what was available, what was sitting in there and has been sitting in there for some time, and why it was important from a principal point of view to go back through all the studies, let's see what's been previously identified and let's protect the ones that we can, because they've been left unprotected for a significant amount of time. That's all I was intending to do, just to show you what was there, what can help me as a single heritage officer at Council to get to the end game, to get properties listed, because a majority of my work is operational.

I have to fit this amongst my other work, just so you're aware.

If there's no other comment, Councillor Reden, do you require a right of reply? No. All right then. So the recommendation is to simply receive and note all of those in agreement. I'll declare that carried unanimously, at least unanimously amongst the people that are left, which means that I will yield the chair back to Councillor Wheeler and we'll conduct general business. Councillor Wheeler, are you out there?

Okay, so I gather we are up to general business. Is that right? Excellent.

Does anyone have any items of general business?

Yes. I've

Got a couple. Nathan?

Oh, well, our mayor overlap. This morning's revelation was that 24 trees are being lost from McQuaid Park.

Yes

And I was wondering—

Just hold that. So McQuaid Park. I'm just going to gather the items first so that I can keep my eye on the time. Any other items of general business? Venetia?

Stage 1A of the livability project. Yep.

Anyone else? I just wanted to raise the issue of the fence at Thompson Square, the Thompson Square fence, and that if there's any further, any future work and so on, that it honours the heritage status of Thompson Square. Okay

So I'll just park that. And then the other item is to reinstate the

Windsor Bridge artefacts working group. Can I just ask, did you reinstate the heritage listings working group in that last item? All right, so we'll reinstate working groups. We can do that as one item. Okay, so let's—

Yes.

Jan

Could you just turn your light on, please, for the tape? On the Thomas James Bridge, down near the Great North Road.

Anyone? Jan? Yes. Jill. The convict trail.

So some of these items may have to be taken on notice, Graham.

Madam Chair, storage of historic fabric, and also funding for the Tolbooth.

We are discussing the Toll House in the next committee meeting. Do you want to put it as general business as well?

Yes, I do.

Richard .

I don't know if this counts, but you've got slates missing off the roof at Windsor Train Station, so there's a hole breach letting water in.

Okay.

Any more for any more? Right, we've got 20 minutes before it's seven o'clock. Let's see how we go. We can go overtime, but I'm trying to get you out of here not too late. All right, Macquarie Park. Nathan, you've raised this. Would you like to speak to it?

Well, yes, and mindful, as we should be for every of these general business items, remembering that this is an advisory committee, so we can only make recommendations to the chamber to undertake further action on. We all learnt this morning that presumably, after an arborist report, 24 mature trees will be removed from Macquarie Park. That's created some commentary in the community. I think there are some questions pending about the public availability of that arborist report and the timeline of any replanting and the species that might be chosen. I think, considering that it literally happened this morning and that the Heritage Committee is meeting now, is that we provide some comment or recommendation to management or to the chamber on this question.

Graham.

How

Urgent is the removal and why? So

From what we've received, and look, councillors haven't received any more information, I think, than the general public has received via Facebook. The trees apparently are damaged or dangerous, or dead. So the urgency appears to be because they're dangerous. There's been a few questions from councillors today after we were informed this morning, just before the Facebook posts went out. I've asked whether there's a potential for retaining any of the trees safely for wildlife hollows. Mary and I have both asked whether it's possible to retain any of the timber for use in projects, and we've asked for information regarding species selection and timelines for replacement, but we don't have any of that yet that I've seen, certainly not this afternoon when I set off for the meeting. Does anyone have any further information that I don't have?

Venetia ?

Not necessarily further information, but I've just got a question why Council put that out on their public Facebook page when there is clearly a dearth of information about it available.

I suspect—I don't know, and I can't speak on behalf of Council. I'm not authorised to speak on behalf of Council because I'm not the Mayor. I'm assuming that it's because that work is likely to happen soon. That's why it's gone public, so that people are informed before the arborist starts to remove those trees.

Jen, Madam Chair, there was discussion previously about trying to remove a couple of the trees to get sight lines through to St Matthew's. So if you're looking at replacing them, can we keep that in mind so that that sight line view is enforced?

Anything that's done to that park will have to be consistent with the plan of management to that park, which has gone through the heritage office. I'm

Not sure if that went through or whether we were still discussing it. I

Can't recall at this point. I don't know that there's a lot of point taking... We could take some of the information on notice and respond to the committee via email if that's probably the best we can do at this point. So far we've got questions regarding a timeline and the sight lines. Graham, are you about to put your light on? Yeah

I was going to ask if there's information out there in regard to the species that are historically or were historically within the park, and whether that shouldn't form the basis of selection.

So historical species selection as well. So that's three points to come back to the committee. We'll undertake to get that information from the staff where possible. We don't have, from what I can see, we have plans to remove 24 trees. The plans to replace the trees don't seem to be as immediate. So we'll just have to wait and see on those.

Sorry, can the arborist's report be publicly released?

I don't know. I can ask if we can have a copy of the

Arborist report. Because I think if Council's putting this information out to the public and telling them they're going to cut down the trees... They should probably back it up with the Alvers plane, Alvers report.

I can ask.

Anything further on that point?

Right, next item is the livability. We don't have the staff here to speak to that item because it wasn't on the business paper, but we'll do what we can. Venetia?

I've been going to meetings with the staff, the project team, including the project manager and the project director, after two years of asking for the Thompson Square businesses to be involved in discussions around this, late last year we finally had a meeting. I am absolutely, I don't even have the words to describe it. They are tearing up, they tore up the deck outside Windsor Seafoods last night. They still have not shown us any final design plans for this new alfresco seating area. There is still not a plan in place for the seating and the shade, and that is one of the issues that brings my comments to this committee, because the CMP is being quoted as the reason why we are going to have to have a step down into a dirty gutter full of water and then back up onto pavers to the new seating area.

Because we have to preserve and display the sandstone curbing and sandstone flagging at the base of the curbing. However, there have been all sorts of suggestions regarding shade structures, including asking the business owners if they want their big umbrellas to be replaced. And in the CMP, that's one of the things that specifically mentioned as having to go, the big umbrellas.

As far as I'm aware, they will be tearing the deck up tonight

Outside

Dom's piece of Stir Crazy Le Pan. The business owners still don't know what's happening, and there is very little being done in Thompson Square with regards any

Livability of it. And I'm really, I'm really concerned that what we're going to end up with is something that's inaccessible, that is not best practice, guided by the CMP,

And it's just going to be complete waste of money.

Is anyone able to comment on any of that? We, councillors have not seen detailed plans for that area where there's been some discussions around— Sorry? No. So there's been discussions around what could be done in terms of shade structures. The plans that were put up initially were rejected by the previous council because they were felt not to fit into the— so that was a shade... Sorry, that was a shade structure. It was felt that that didn't fit in with the buildings behind it, but

An alternative hadn't been determined at that point.

Certainly been difficulties with working out what to do with that deck around the— and even really a lack of knowledge of what was under the previous deck, because that information hadn't been, it seems, hadn't been particularly well recorded when that deck was put in place. Other than that, I think there's probably a bit there that we can take on notice. Christopher, can you make any comment about the application of the CMP at this point, or would you rather take that on notice? I

Want to take on notice, Madam Chair, because it's not my area. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just can't. It's not—

No, it's, yeah. So we don't have a member of the liveability team or that area of council's operations here to answer those questions directly. I'm sorry that we only have the staff who pertain

To the items of the business paper. I completely appreciate that. My concern is I think I need to flag it to Heritage Committee because Heritage Committee clearly have no idea what's going to be done in Thompson Square, and there appears— council staff in the project team do not know what's going to happen yet. They don't know. They have been talking to the businesses as

Late as, I can't remember if it was last Thursday or the one— no, the one before it was. We were promised we would have an email . Yeah, not last Thursday, Thursday before. There was a draft plan received by the project team that they said had to be looked at by the project team and would be sent to the businesses by Wednesday , or there would be some sort of communication by Wednesday last week. We still have none of that information, and they're

Digging it up with machinery right now. So I'm really concerned there's no heritage oversight of what's going on right now. It's, you know, it's really scary. So

How about I undertake to request some information about what's actually happening up there and what heritage oversight is being provided. The committee on the previous term of council was very specific about the heritage oversight that we required for sensitive areas, which is basically the whole strip of the livability project, and particularly Tops and Square. So I'll put those questions to the relevant staff or via the general manager this evening, and I'll send those responses out to the committee as soon as I've got them.

Graham. Madam Chair, once this final design is done, can you enlighten me as to whether it needs to go to Heritage New South Wales for approval, and what's the timeline if that's the case? I

Think Heritage New South Wales has had to approve each step from the— so I don't know what Heritage New South Wales has approved for that area and how that coordinates with— With this design project, I can certainly ask where heritage. Heritage New South Wales approval is in this picture. Sorry

I can answer that. I was told by the project director that they have Section 60 approval from Heritage New South Wales, but I don't know how that's possible when there is no final design. I don't know. I'm sorry.

Could someone explain to the new people who may not know what a Section 60 approval is, what a Section 60 approval is, please? Christopher.

Just an approval under the Heritage Act to do work relating to a state listed item.

So I shall ask about that as well.

Madam Chair, I guess the other critical thing that this committee has been concerned about is the underlay to the paving, and I have no indication as to what that is.

I'll ask about that as well.

And that's, I think all of these questions are pertinent before we move into works in Windsor Mall as well.

Right. Any further on the livability project? Thompson Square fence. Cheryl.

Community raised concerns with Council back in 2023 about the condition of the fence along between Thompson Square and the terrace. The concerns were with regards to safety and community safety. At the time, we were told that it would be put on Council's works program. As far as I can see, there's not been any works done. But the reason that I'm raising it here in this committee is that any works that are planned, given the heritage status of Thompson Square as a state listed item, would need to be, I would hope, consulted and discussed around this committee.

So can we take that question on notice about when the works are likely to be done and have that come back to a further meeting? Thank you.

Right. Next was to reinstate the working groups. So under the committee's constitution, the committee is entitled to recommend working groups to carry out some, or to assist with the work

Done under the Heritage Committee's banner. So previously, we've had working groups for the Windsor Bridge artefacts, the heritage listings that you discussed in 3.1.4, and another working group I think we had in place was to look at instituting some heritage awards, which a previous Heritage Committee did quite a bit of work on and was ready to be rolled out, should we ever miraculously find some funding for that. So that's three committees. Now each new iteration of the Heritage Committee, which this is, needs to formally recommend that Council accept those working groups. The heritage listings working group had a membership made up of members of this committee, and I think it's largely a formality that that working group be reinstated.

Those members, should they choose to remain on that committee, and the work of that committee just continue to carry forward. New members of the committee are also welcome to put their hands up for that committee. So that committee is to assist with the heritage listings and assist the senior heritage officer in compiling those into listings so that it cuts back on his work and we can expedite that project. Can I see a show of hands for people who would like to be on that committee? So I've got Graham Edds, Jan Barkley-Jack, Carl, Michelle, and Michael Edwards, I suspect, would like to go on that, and I'll go on as just as the chair, and then I'll end up with a thumping conflict of interest, but never mind.

Deal with that when we come to it. So is everyone happy to reinstate the heritage listing working group with those members?

You'd like to go on? Okay, great. So Richard as well, thank you. And then the next— sorry,

Deborah Hallam may well be

Interested in that committee too

Okay, and then the next working group is the Windsor Bridge Artefacts Working Group. So that has a membership that was made up of members of this committee and also various groups who were involved in the documentation of the destruction of Thompson Square and the old Windsor Bridge, and I think we would look to approach those people again so that there's continuity with that working group. Is there anyone here who would like to go on that working group in addition to their previous— What I think we'll do, that previous working group recommended that that working group continue. This is formalising the continuation of that working group. I think we'll accept previous members unless they don't want to do it anymore, and just call for any additional members if anyone else would like to be on that working group.

Would anyone else like to be added to that list? Carol. Okay, so that motion is to reinstate that working group. Do we want to reinstate the Heritage Awards Working Group? The work is largely done, or do you want to park that for a couple of years and have another crack at it later in the term of this committee? Reinstate it? All right. So, and who would like to be on that working group? Venetia. Anyone else? Carol. I think Michael Edwards was on previously, so he might like to go on again. Anyone else? Jill. All right. So that's three working groups and their members. Could I have someone move that way, please? Cheryl and then Jill as a seconder. Is everyone in favour of those three working groups?

Thank you. So they're much more informal. They're not part of a webcast, and the way they function is that they report back to this committee, and then this committee can send that report back to the council, should council need to determine. But they can meet much more frequently, and it's a looser system, I suppose, than this one. It's far less formal than this. It allows for a bit more back-and-forth conversation as well. The Windsor Bridge Artefacts Working Group is run out of Cultural Services, so it's run usually through the head of Cultural Services, and then we meet at the gallery or the library. For some of the artefacts there, the artefacts are another—well, that's what the committee is meeting to deal with, and I will bring up a matter out of that in a second, Jill.

Venetia.

Is there any scope for any further working groups? Certainly, if the committee determines that we should have a working group on something, yes. In a lot of the discussions I've had with the Livability Project Director and the team, there is a lot of talk about activation. That will be done later on as activation, activation, activation. I'd like to propose that there is a heritage activation working group that needs to be involved in any of these activation projects that are going to come up.

Can I suggest that we discuss that at the next Heritage Committee meeting? I think it would be, I think it would be beneficial to flesh out some potential terms of reference and a bit of a scope before that. This will come, the working group list will come to council, and we will have to justify those working groups. And I think if we can flesh that out a little bit more at another committee meeting where it's not seven o'clock, that might be to our benefit.

Concerns activation is going to start soon as construction. And that's supposed to be.

We'll still have a meeting before then. You can add it to the list if you want to. This is your meeting. I don't—I'm the chair. I'm not the dictator. If you want to leave it on the list, I'm happy for you to move it, and we'll take a vote. What do people think?

Madam Chair, look, we've already recommended at the previous meeting. That early engagement with the committee for major projects of high heritage values, I guess, isn't this exactly that?

Depends whether it's a major project or it's just routine council business. It's possible that some of the activation is simply

Council business. Surely within State Significant Precincts , it's got to be of high value, surely, high heritage value. And I would have thought that that was an action that the committee recommended, and that's why I asked actually earlier on in the meeting whether that had actually gone to Council and was accepted. Well

It's been accepted. Whether that means what Venetia is talking about, I think is subjective .

I think it's one and the same, to be truthful.

I can give a little bit more of an explanation about what I'm talking about. Sure. So anything to do with any type of heritage display , decoration, signage, or anything else as part of the Livability Project is apparently not part of the Livability Project; it's all activation.

And there are decisions being made, even around the seating style and the shade style, which apparently that is activation as well. But how it can be, I don't know. It's actual hard hardware. Decisions are being made with no heritage input. In Australia's oldest public square, which is state heritage listed precinct.

So it seems to me that

If you want those decisions to come back to the heritage committee, that a working group may not be the most efficacious way of having that happen. That instead you have a recommendation that the heritage committee be consulted regarding activation to occur in heritage precincts, including Windsor.

Can I just ask what they define as activation? Is that implementation? What does activation mean?

That's a good question, because I've had a number of answers on that level.

Because I'm just not really

Understanding what there's. Activation is anything apart, from what I understand, is anything apart from, you know, pavers, concreting, hard surfaces. Would that be right, Andrew? Do you— sorry to drag you into this, but

From my perspective, I wouldn't classify those items as activation. But, you know, from my background, activation is more about creating the spaces that, you know, creating, I guess, that stickiness of place and, you know, getting people to stay in places longer. So if it's more about the design of those particular elements that does encourage people to stay longer and obviously spend more time and more money within our town centres, then that is activation itself.

I mean, that's how I understand it, but the tables and chairs and shade options, be it umbrellas or anything else, are apparently activation. They're not actually part of livability, the infrastructure project, and anything else that is going to go into the squares cluster activation. And there's decisions being made by the project team right now, and they're finding money for tables and chairs and shade structures. So this is all going to be done without any heritage input .

So I would suggest that waiting to put a working group in place is not going to give you the input that you would like. I think you would be better to put a recommendation asking for the design elements used in the livability project in Windsor to come to the Heritage Committee as soon as possible.

Madam Chair, previously around the livability, the council staff delivered a briefing to this committee about various aspects, and there was lots of discussion and there was further follow-up, as Graham has said. And so could it not be that we request a briefing on this activation and what's happening now in Thompson Square, and could we request staff— To give us a briefing sooner. We had a—

Yep. So

We had, some time back,

We had an online session with the consultants. I think we can certainly— we could ask. We could ask for an information session or a briefing from the livability team to the Heritage Committee, if that's what you'd like. So councillors have not been privy to this information either. We are now in a state, I have to point out, that we are now in a state of really extreme urgency with the livability project. We have to acquit this funding by June, and council is now looking at, because we've run out of time under the grant, council is now looking at a potential shortfall of funding to complete the works through Windsor. That's occurred because of numerous delays to the project that have largely come about from twiddling with the design .

And that's where we are. Hence the rush to do the thing, all the things, between now and the end of June. So the staff really are under the pump. It's possible that the answer to your request will be no, but you are quite welcome to make the request. Jan

For that reason, Madam Chair, we need that to be a Zoom meeting. Yes. Very— yeah, very quickly, not wait till the next committee in three months' time.

No, we can't wait till the next committee. I doubt it will be by the consultant. I think it would be easier if it was simply by the staff. So if you'd like to request— That, I don't think we can wait for it to come to another council meeting. That'll take a month as well. So again, I'll request.

Madam Chair, I understood that Council—sorry, the person heading up the project on behalf of Council—was going to keep this committee fully informed and was going to come back to us at regular intervals. Well, it clearly hasn't happened. So we're just really asking—we're really just asking for that to occur.

Noted. Oh yeah, thanks. I've got a dribble left. All right. So moving on, we've reinstated Thomas James—

Thompson Square fence, we've done livability, we've done— where are we up to? Reinstated the working groups. I seem to be all over the shop. Thomas James Bridge.

Just quickly, Madam Chair, I was going to request that a report could come to the committee about where work is, because it was flood damaged. Yes. What's been done and what the timetable is scheduled for further work on it. Christopher, can you speak to any of that?

Madam Chair, I only ask that that come from the infrastructure people because I haven't been involved in the project, only a small amount, so at the very beginning.

So we can request an update on that.

From a particular department, please.

That won't come to the next—till the next meeting. I think it's been really interesting work. There's been some really significant findings, and the outcomes look to be good, I think, with

With probably better outcomes than we thought, including far less disruption to the community, which has hopefully allowed the workers to be more careful with the heritage fabric because they're not under the time pressure of reopening, like they may have been had we had to close the whole road.

The convict trail, was that you, Jill? The mayor has asked me to bring this to the committee. He went down for one of the community strategic forum meetings, and Elizabeth Roberts, who's secretary of the Convict Trail Project and puts out the little newsletter, said that two parts of the convict trail, one part in Hornsby, have deteriorated badly, and it's in a World Heritage area, and the other part is in the Central Coast area — that's not our area — and also we have Simpsons Bridge in Ten Mile Hollow, although I think that's under the Central Coast. But the convict trail part in Hawkesbury, they're quite concerned about it, and I feel it's something we would definitely get funding for. So I thought I'd bring this to the committee.

So could we get some information, Christopher, on — do you have, perhaps we can contact Elizabeth and ask her for some information and maybe get some more information about our section of it, and perhaps also contact Central Coast and Hornsby.

The mayor suggested that maybe we ask Elizabeth Roberts to come and talk to us about it. On the back page of the latest little booklet, she spoke about it, so I've got a copy of that I can bring in if you need that.

Great. Yeah, so I'll leave that with you, Christopher, to decide. What the best way forward is.

Thanks, Jill. Storage of historic fabric, was that you, Graham?

Yes, it was. Thank you. Look, I guess I'm bringing this up because of the Windsor Bridge Artefacts Working Group, and we'd actually made a recommendation, I believe, some time ago, requesting the Council consider actually constructing a reasonable size shed to actually store artefacts. And I guess I'm also bringing that up in reference to the barn, Tebbutt's Barn, and actually the storage of vulnerable fabric from there. So that sort of construction or that sort of structure would be invaluable for that purpose. And I just wonder where that was at. Is it happening or is it not happening?

I'm still working on the director of infrastructure, and I actually spotted a building that I suggested could be relocated for our purposes, and I have not got a commitment on it, but I will follow up. The money has been set aside in the last quarterly review to repallet the material from the bridge onto plastic pallets so that it's not sitting on the deteriorated timber

Pallets and on the wet ground. So that is some movement forward. Unfortunately, that is coming out of the Windsor Bridge artefacts money. And so each time we move these items or we do something else with them, we suck up that very small pot of money, which is about $250,000 that we managed to bleed out of the RMS when they destroyed the old bridge. And so it's a real catch-22. How much do we preserve those materials until we can afford to do something else, or until we know what we're doing? And that is the bulk of the work of the Windsor Bridge Artefacts Working Group. Graham? Well

Madam Chair, we've actually spoken about this before, particularly with many years ago, the demolition of that big barn that was at the entrance to Windsor, based up at McGrath's Hill. That was supposed to go into council stores, and nobody knows where it's all gone or whether it still exists. And this is the sort of thing that's happening and continues to happen. So, you know, a repository like that is just really invaluable to my mind, and I hope to the committee's mind. So I'd like you to really reactivate that, if possible.

So, would you— so in that, your best means of reactivation, I think, is a motion, is a recommendation to council, to the new council.

Or we could discuss it. I don't know that discussing it further will get us anywhere. If you want to make a recommendation now, you're certainly welcome to.

Well, if committee agrees, we could recommend to council for a repository , being a shed or some other sort of structure for the storage of historic fabric in an appropriate way.

So allocate an area and funding for a repository for items of historic fabric within the Hawkesbury LGA.

That sounds good.

So you'll move that. Could I have a seconder, please? Carol, and all in favour? Thank you.

I will warn you, Graham, that there is no blood in the stone, that the stone is looking more anemic than it has for some time.

Funding for the Toll House. Who was that? Yeah, that was me again. It was you again.

And I guess all of these things, I believe, should actually, or could form part of this, I guess, this proposal for federal funding.

Yep.

And I think we could actually highlight that all of these things are really important, and perhaps that should be included in it. I

Think that's an excellent idea.

So I guess that's the way I'd like to sort of move that, you know, that become part of the federal funding proposal. Okay

So would your recommendation say something like, recommend that the approach to the federal member for funding include a repository for items of historic fabric and for— Or

State significant historic fabric, I think. Probably let's heighten the significance of it all. Wouldn't you?

I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't. You wouldn't either? Well, some of these aren't, yeah. I wouldn't limit it.

I was only trying to actually heighten the perception of importance.

I think we put that in the preamble.

Okay.

All right.

Could I have a seconder for that then? Jan, all in favour? Thank you.

Windsor Train Station, that was you, Richard.

That's just a general. You have to see it when you're on the train, there's a big 300 millimetre square hole.

And that's slate that's off the roof. Transport for New South Wales, the rail division. So that's just a matter of council, that the Heritage Committee recommend that council contact

State Rail, CityRail, requesting that they plug the dirty great hole in their roof.

Indeed.

Right. Any more for any more?

Madam Chair, I do have one.

I knew you would.

Well, I was going to flag that this one could actually be discussed at the next committee meeting if possible. And I guess it's in regard to the upgrade of the, or the review of the LEP, and where we're at with that. I know council rejected it going ahead, if that's the correct terminology. But I guess what it's saying to me is when we're actually looking at the proposal for Currajong Heights Pub, that the LEP and the DCP for that particular location aren't strong enough, and that within the review, I don't know whether that would actually be, or whether that was increased the strength, or whether it didn't, and whether, because it's in limbo, whether that should actually be looked at again in that regard to conserve heritage within the Hawkesbury.

So councilors received a briefing on where the LEP was up to. For those who aren't aware, the LEP is the Local Environment Plan. It's the main piece of planning documentation that council has control of. It's overridden by various state... legislation, but this is the document that council used to determine what can be built where, basically, and the DCP, the development control plan, basically determines how you can build what you want in those spots. So we undertook an extensive review of our LEP from, in 2017. The council in 2021 approved those changes to the LEP, and that then needs to go to the state government to a process called a gateway determination. The next council rescinded that motion, and there was more work done to the LEP.

It's now gone back and forth between council and the state government since that time, which is the norm, and we received a briefing on where we were up to a couple of weeks ago. So basically, it's come back from the state government again with some more changes, and that space will probably change a little bit between now and the next committee meeting. But rather than pin Andrew down to giving you all that detail at this point, we might flag that for the LEP review for a further discussion with the committee at a later meeting. Does that work for you, Andrew? Yep. So Andrew has carriage of that work, Andrew's section of council. Madam Chair

So that we can actually productively discuss that, is it possible to get a copy of the heritage sections within the LEP prior to talking about it?

Is that possible, Andrew?

Yeah, happy to provide relevant sections of that work ahead of the meeting, yep.

Yes, I think we— Graham's alluded to the Corradong Heights pub decision. It was Council's position that the elected body's position that that building, that that should not be approved. It was certainly the advice given by Council's heritage officer, and unfortunately the planning panel decided that that should go ahead. I think it's a real shame for Corradong Heights and a real slap in the face for the community who are dead against this development.

Any more? Cheryl

This may be one where we need to— where Council needs to draw attention to Transport for New South Wales. I'm not aware of whose responsibility the remaining span of the Windsor Bridge is, the one that has interpretive signage on it. Much of that, the information that's on that span has faded. It's very difficult to read. I've heard community members say that they can't read it anymore, and so I just flag it as if Transport for New South Wales is in fact the responsible party for that, if we could just draw their attention to it.

I'm not sure

Who's now responsible for that asset. It was a concern at the time that whether that all— Whether it's Council or whether it's— Yeah, and whether that information was going to— whether that design was— We certainly flagged that as a committee that we were worried about whether that was going to stand the test of time. Clearly it has not , and whether that's a Council asset now to replace, I don't know. That's another question to take on notice, I think. Who is now responsible for fixing that? Probably us, as luck would have it. Any more? All right. Well, I'll declare the first meeting of the Heritage Advisory Committee for this term closed at seven something, 7. 21. Thank you all for coming and for your input. It's really appreciated.

Have we fixed a frequency of meeting, or only as—