This transcript and its speaker attributions were generated with AI assistance and may contain errors. Speaker names may be corrected in later releases. It is provided for search and accessibility; the official Council minutes remain authoritative.
Welcome everyone to the Heritage Committee meeting for the 27th of November 2025. Hawkesbury City Council acknowledges the Darug and Darkinjung people as the traditional custodians of the land of the Hawkesbury. We pay respects to all Elders past, present and emerging and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of the country. Committee members and members of the public attending the meeting are advised that in the event of an emergency, you will be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit following the guidance of our warden. I'd also like to advise that meetings of Council committees are recorded. In the terms of the Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, this may involve the recording of personal information provided at the time of the meeting.
The recordings are made to assist staff in compiling the minutes of the meeting and to enable the podcasting and live stream of Council committee meetings. The provision of any information that is recorded is voluntary. If any person doesn't wish to be recorded, they should not address or request to address the meeting. The gallery can be seen in the live stream video. If you do not wish to be recorded in the live stream, please move to the foyer and we can turn the foyer speakers on for you. The recordings may be made available to other persons where such access is in accordance with the relevant regulations. The recordings are stored on Council's records management system and uploaded to Council's website.
For the benefit of the people who will be addressing the committee, it's expected that you will refrain from making any insult, allegation or personal reflection against any person, present or not, at this meeting. This request relates both to your address to Council and any answers given in response to questions from Councillors. It's also requested that any person participating in or attending the meeting has, if they have a mobile phone, they either turn it off or turn it to silent. We have apologies from Carol Robbins, Graham Eds and Christopher Reeves. Is there any further apologies?
As required by the Code of Conduct, committee members are required to disclose any pecuniary and/or non-pecuniary interests in relation to matters on today's agenda. Does anyone have an interest to disclose? Cheryl ?
So the first item of business is the minutes from the previous meeting. We did have a correction sent through by Graham Eds. That correction has been made to the minutes. Is there any further correction to be made to the minutes? Could I have someone move that the minutes be accepted, please? Councillor Reardon and a seconder? Jan, thank you.
Okay. In which case, I'll hand the meeting over to Councillor Lyons-Buckett to chair and— I'll leave the meeting. I have a pecuniary interest in item 3.1.1 in that my home is one of the properties listed in both the slab barn study and the heritage listings.
Just wait. Danielle's gone out. Sorry, I'm just locating my business paper. Oh, there's one here. This'll do. Okay. Item 3.1.1 is the Heritage Listings Working Group. Do you wish to give an update, Andrew?
Andrew Kearnes(staff - Manager, Strategic Planning)
Yeah, I'm happy to do that. So just an update on, in terms of the listings project, the specific details and materials were provided to the working group members in early November. We also outlined a process for preparing various planning proposals to bring into effect the proposed new listings. Obviously we've got the current slab barn planning proposal with the 19 sites there, and that's— we're looking at this stage scheduling the final report for the December council meeting. If it's not December, it'll be the first meeting in the new year. Then the next planning proposal will be the remaining slab barns, so there's another 11 slab barns from the slab barn study, plus there's some housekeeping heritage matters, you know, descriptions and numbering of heritage items there that will be included as part of that planning proposal.
Then there are 69 inventory sheets that are essentially ready, subject to further input from the working group members, that they're ready to go into another planning proposal. But what we thought would be good would be to break the planning proposals down into no more than, say, 30 items per planning proposal. So we'd be looking at essentially two planning proposals to cover those 69 potential items. And so it's sort of almost like a production line of these particular planning proposals. We're not going to wait for one planning proposal to be finished before we're progressing with the next one. They'll be overlapping and progressing throughout 2026. And then thereafter the working group will be reviewing the new potential listings in batches of around 10, so they'll be sent out to working group members.
Andrew Kearnes(staff - Manager, Strategic Planning)
So that was in terms of the listings project. Also included in this report was obviously an update on that Slub Bounds planning proposal, which, as I said, we're looking to report to the December meeting, if not then the first one in 2026. But also the state listing of Glasgow House, so 394 George Street. So we've progressed the research in terms of that particular item and the nomination form. So we provided that to working group members to review. So we're actually scheduling the lodgement of that nomination fairly shortly and, yeah, hoping to progress that matter as well.
No? No discussion. Okay, there's a recommendation in there. Does someone want to move that or something similar? Jill is moving that. Thank you. Someone to second? Venetia, seconded by Venetia, moved by Councillor Reid and seconded by Venetia. All those in favour of that going ahead? That's everyone. Thank you for that. And I'll call Councillor Wheeler back in. Hers was a less than significant in the next one. Okay, I'll go and get her to return. I'll take this back. Thanks, Michelle. Thanks, Andrew.
So we, I take it, we are at 3.1.2, which is the Draft Conservation Management Plan for the Australiana Pioneer Village, Wilberforce. I need to declare that I have a less than significant non-pecuniary interest in this item, in that I am a life member of the Friends of the Australiana Pioneer Village, but my involvement is lower than the threshold required for a significant interest.
Andrew Kearnes(staff - Manager, Strategic Planning)
Happy to talk to this matter. So obviously a council-owned site, and a site that's had, I guess, various management structures at different times over a number of decades. And obviously, you know, the Friends of the APB and the fine work that they do in terms of management and running of the site at the present time. So council had commissioned the preparation of this conservation management plan, and I guess, you know, this represents a significant body of work to sort of, I guess, showcase and highlight the importance of this particular site, both in terms of historic and but also for cultural and educational and, I guess, tourism opportunities there. So obviously the process for a conservation management plan is obviously to, you know, to sort of undertake that research to also identify the constraints and opportunities that exist on the site, and then to arrive at a set of management recommendations, essentially, that essentially looks at the ongoing management of the site and guides future development on the site.
So any future conservation efforts or maintenance or management of the site or new proposals on the site, the conservation management plan is basically your bible in terms of informing you how you go about that and what you need to consider in terms of that site. So we're now in the position where we are able to present the draft conservation management plan to the committee and look to progress this towards council considering it, placing it on exhibition and And adoption. And obviously, through this process, is obviously providing to the current leaseholder of the site, which is obviously the friends of the APV.
It's a nice insight , really, into a really valued place in the Hawkesbury. I want to acknowledge Jan's role in the heritage listing of the site back when the community was really fighting to save the site from sell-off and loss . You know, the site was earmarked to be sold to a private individual, and one of the thoughts of that individual was that the buildings and the collection could be disbanded and just dispersed throughout the, you know, wherever, really, which would have been a huge loss when you look at the heritage significance of the site. It's interesting as an open-air museum, but it's also interesting as a collection of buildings that show how most of us would have lived back 200 years ago.
And the other thing that's interesting, I think, is how long that timber vernacular, the slab buildings, to house quite large families in many instances, continued to be built in the Hawkesbury. If you look at the dates on some of those cottages that we think of as really old, and they're 1899. So people were still building these very humble two-room cottages throughout the Hawkesbury for quite large families to live in for generations. It's a remarkable legacy for the Hawkesbury.
Yeah, I'd just like to say I'm glad this is finally happening because it's taken a long time, and I'd also like to point out that this conservation management plan, the detail in it, is a really good
And the people that lived in them are the people who actually built the community from the ground up. So I think it's a really good thing, and it should be disseminated far and wide.
Yeah, it's a really interesting glimpse into our past. I mean, it's a recreated village, but the buildings, as a testament to how ordinary people lived, are incredibly valuable. We've had a government push over the last thirty-odd years to save the homes of important people, or to save fancy big houses, but very little attempt to save the ordinary houses that ordinary Australians would have lived in. There's also some quite interesting buildings in there. There's one of the buildings, Aiken Hut, that's moved out from West Pennant Hills, Aiken Road at West Pennant Hills, is from a mixed-race family that integrated seamlessly into their community. There are probably some lessons for all of us there.
There's... It's also the Riverston Police Station, where the copper used to say that he had to go outside so that he could turn around. It's that tiny. And the other thing that's notable for some of those buildings is how flood adaptive they are. Probably more lessons for us in that you open the doors and windows, let the water go out, clean it out, dry it out, and move back in again. And McMarn's house that was moved, the last building to move on site in around 2005, I think, to save it from demolition down on Freeman's Reach Road, is a really classic example of flood architecture, with the little door up, the flood access door up the top. And it's really interesting what people imagine those spaces are for.
They'll say things like, Oh, well, that's where the children slept, you know, and it's not where the children slept at all. It's where everybody went to in order to stay safe when the water rose, and they could get a boat out of it. So if you haven't been to the— sorry, that's my phone going off.
If you haven't been to the village recently, I'd urge you to go. If you haven't seen the footage of all of those buildings being moved on site, that was pivotal in getting the heritage listing through, where the footage of one of those buildings coming down at the Putty Road from East Kurrajong on the back of a flat-top Bedford around 1970 with Veranda flapping in the breeze was, according to Jan, one of the things that turned the heritage office in favour of what was a really unusual listing at the time. Dennis Mitchell on the back of the same Bedford going across Budsworth Creek with a broom handle holding up the electricity wires. The things you could do in 1970 when no one was watching. I think there are a few concerns from the Friends. When will they be consulted in this process, Andrew?
Andrew Kearnes(staff - Manager, Strategic Planning)
So I have provided a copy of the draft CMP to the Friends and have indicated in the email correspondence that, yeah, more than happy to arrange meetings to discuss. Okay Yeah,
Because I think there's a couple of—I think the CMP has been sitting around for a few years, and there's some recommendations in there around management structure. So the business group no longer exists; the village is managed entirely by the Friends of the Australiana Pioneer Village, who are always keen on new volunteers, should any of you find yourself at a loose end.
So the recommendation is that we endorse —is that we recommend Council endorse the draft CMP, and I'll try and get someone who isn't a councillor, Jill, if I can, because the recommendation is directing us. Michelle and seconder, please. Richard, thank you.
The next item is 3.1.3, and I'll note that Councillor Zampronha has joined the meeting. 3.1.3 is heritage education opportunities, and this is where we get to talk about Christopher while he isn't here. So I see he's been blooded, and we've sent him off to talk to schoolchildren.
Particularly that one where, I don't know what that is that he's holding up and waving it with that quite serious look on his face, but he's got them under control, well under control, anyway. Did you want to speak to this,
Andrew Kearnes(staff - Manager, Strategic Planning)
Andrew? Yeah, it was just, I guess, to highlight that, you know, these opportunities do come up at different times, and this case was through Chisholm Catholic Primary School at Bligh Park. We was asked to present to students there in terms of heritage and, you know, the importance of that, and I guess he did have a very captive audience that were very engaged, and I think he said he had more questions than he ever gets in terms of heritage from the group there. So it was just to highlight to the committee that, you know, those opportunities do present themselves, and we're more than happy to assist in doing that, and, you know, there's opportunities for more, then we're more than happy to do that.
I think that is wonderful to see. I think it's even better that it's his own tools and he just had them going along. But I think I wanted to know, did this come about by a request from the school, or have we sent out some sort of—was a request from the Year 2 teachers, I see that now—but I think this is something that would be really valuable to do, because I think it is when you're young that you get to understand a lot, and I don't know how much is taught in schools. I don't know what sort of, what we would have called social studies back then, back in the day, I don't know what is taught these days. What angle of history of colonisation is taught in schools around, someone may inform me, but I think that when you can have somebody come and actually speak about it from a particular perspective is really beneficial for students.
And Year 2 students, you know, still sit quiet still until they get older and listen, which is really a benefit as well.
Brave enough to do the high school kids, Venetia. Yeah, I think it's a great thing if we can get out amongst the young people to teach them about this early, because those are the sort of things you remember for the rest of your life. And particularly if you live in an area where a lot of this stuff's going on, it also makes kids ask questions about why things are falling down.
One thing I would like to pick up on, though, is that a couple of times in this it said that it was emphasised the importance of maintaining traditional trade skills was emphasised, but I actually went and had a bit of a hunt, and I can't find anywhere within about 500 kilometres where you can learn heritage trade skills. So I just wonder how those kids would, if they wanted to do it, where would they go and what would they do?
The Historical Society does this as well, so we'd be interested in having a joint working group with you if you do do others, because if other tools were required. Our collection is in the museum, and it could be arranged that other tools can go out for this short time as well. So we'd be interested in helping where we can.
Learning. I've had year two and three, I think, from both Kermond and mainly Kermond School come up to our place a few times, and they work in units of two years. And I think those couple of years, must be three and four, do Australian colonial history. I know from the previous question comment about what they're learning. Okay, my kids are not in that school area, but I know that they spent quite a bit of time talking about pre-colonial history and conflict history, but they certainly come through when they do a lot of this sort of thing. And I've been always really happy to have them come through the house and that sort of thing. And I know for a few years, Courage on Comboyne was sending representatives to the schools to talk to kids about that as well .
So it's always good if you can work through that in any way. So maybe we need to look at some sort of, I don't know, publicity type thing or notification to schools that people may be available to talk to the kids
Was just going to say, I know that the museum has an education officer. We still get some classes, some students coming into the library from school, the local schools, mainly the ones that can walk because the travel is the thing. But I know, and Nathan probably might be able to confirm that, there's been a lot of changes in the curriculum for that. Introducing early conflict, and I know that there's—and contact, that's changed just recently, and it'll go into there. But there are— it's just a matter of getting the teacher, the teachers on board. Some of them are very interested, some of them aren't. But there's definitely parts of it in the curriculum.
Shane. Thanks, Madam Chair. I just wanted to note what might be a point of interest, that I think once a year we get the Lost Trades Fair and we get Ironfest. And at the Showground one year, I watched them show how they produced ironbark huts everything from making beams to shingles with the tools they had originally. So it's interesting to go out and see and learn how to do those things, and they take on people and do courses and show people how to do this sorts of stuff. So it might be worth taking a look when it comes around.
Yeah, good point. I can remember several years ago now going to what was historic houses, which is now called something ... Museums. Yep, Museums Sydney, used to run workshops as well, and also used to run a, I think it was Out of the Woodwork festival at Rouse Hill House, where they had demonstrations of stonework and fence building and slab hut building, dry stone walling, all sorts of stuff. But that seems to have all fallen by the wayside. So it looks like you've got to go out into the private sector for that sort of stuff. I did an excellent workshop years ago called In Praise of Old Paint that was, again, aimed at heritage homeowners and getting them not to do dreadful things to their houses with buckets of acrylic paint.
But unfortunately, I think a lot of that seems to have drifted away. So it would be—we have talked in years past about keeping directories of useful contacts for things like this. So maybe now we've got Christopher on board, we could look again at that. But I think when Christopher's back, we might revisit if we perhaps can minute a further discussion between the Historical Society and National Trust and the Senior Heritage Officer regarding provision of more education services along with the museum and library. We might be able to offer a bit more of a package. Certainly lots of students end up at the Pioneer Village as well for that unit. It sounds like these kids are in Stage 2.
Anything further on that item? I think it was a receive and note, but if we minute a further discussion about that, it hopefully won't fall off the list. Do you want a recommendation for that, Andrew, or are we happy with the receive and note?
Terrific. And pass on our congratulations to Christopher at what looks to be an excellent session and some very well-engaged kids, half his luck. Can I just have someone move that we receive and note that report, please? Venetia and seconded Jill. Thank you. And then we move on to 3.1.4, update on actions from Heritage Committee recommendations.
Andrew Kearnes(staff - Manager, Strategic Planning)
Yep, so this is basically to provide an update to the committee on various actions that have been taken from essentially the last committee meeting on a number of recommendations from the committee. So, call out in particular the Heritage New South Wales, the nominations for state listing, and I will highlight to the committee that I actually did receive a call from Heritage New South Wales yesterday to talk about the correspondence that we'd sent to Heritage New South Wales about our concerns that the processing of the nominations was on halt. So in that discussion, Heritage New South Wales sort of outlined that obviously all nominations that are presented to their committee, who actually undertake a prioritisation process and, I guess, look for strategic opportunities.
The committee noted that obviously Council's undertaking our own planning proposal process in terms of listings, which obviously involves consultation with property owners, and they were mindful of Not having a parallel process that might be confusing, like a dual process. So that was essentially why they had deferred their further consideration until the completion of Council's process. So we'll certainly notify Heritage New South Wales when we've completed our process, and essentially that was the thrust of their indication as to their reasoning. Other matters in that particular report, yeah, as I say, are updates in terms of actions undertaken.
So it would seem the Heritage Office has a fairly low opinion of people's ability to not be confused by the process. One would hope that the Heritage Office was more concerned about the protection of heritage fabric and had a better faith in people's ability to understand the listings process. But never mind. Comments on any of these? I'm happy to take— I'll just take them in series. So firstly, the
No, so that has been ratified . The formation of that working group has been ratified by Council now, so we are now free to meet. We can't meet until Council ratifies. So if you'd like to meet before Christmas, we can certainly do that. It might be worthwhile kicking off with a site visit. Andrew, could we leave that with you to come up with a couple of dates to see if we can squeeze in before Christmas, and if not, perhaps in January.
Thanks. Anything further on the Toll House? Slab barn nomination for state heritage listing. Andrew's spoken to that. Any further comment? Jill? We were going to have an educational program on this. On the — we were. Could we flag that for discussion early next year, Andrew?
Because I think that's around the listing of all of the slab buildings, and perhaps using some to highlight. I note that there does seem to be work beginning on at least one of those barns that's in a fairly prominent space, so that's really good. It did freak me out a bit to start with because I thought, oh my God, they're not pulling that down, are they? So I got onto Christopher, but he says that it's actually work starting. The delegation, so have we— we're not meeting with them because they— are giving us the hurry up and wait, I take it.
We've discussed the conservation management plan for the Pioneer Village already, and the last item on the list is Thompson Square Street Windsor. Anything further on that?
Okay, so what's the recommendation here? I think we're receiving a noting. Receive a note, consider arrangements to request sending a delegation. So I think we're just taking item one, receive a note, and also for the Toll House Working Group to conduct a site visit as soon as practical. Can I have someone move that way,
Please? Deb and seconder? Jan, thank you. Which all in favour? Carried. Thank you. Which brings us to 3.1.5, which is the Heritage Committee 2026 meeting dates.
So you'll see there are four of those, and there will be working group meetings as arranged around... Around those as well. Does anyone have any questions or comments on those dates?
Jan? It's just a comment, Madam Chair. Early in the month, that's fine, but sometimes they've got been put back to later in the month, and it coincides with another meeting that I chair, which normally doesn't matter, but if we go over, it makes a difference. And I realise you can't swap when everybody else can go, you can't do it for one person, but if you could just keep in mind that that fourth Thursday does coincide with the Historical Society meeting.
It would be good practice for the Heritage Committee not to get in the road of the Historical Society, really, if we're going to coordinate with one other group, it should at least be the Historical Society. So if we can try to— usually it's because we have— so this meeting was moved from earlier in the month because Council had an additional briefing, and so there was both a venue and a clash for four of the members of this committee. So that's the reason you all got shunted to today. Sorry about that. We had to discuss raising your rates. Sorry.
Anything further on that item? Can I have someone move that those dates be the meeting dates? Jill and a seconder, please. Cheryl, all in favour? Carried. Thank you. Does anyone have any general business? Jill?
I was just wondering about Skyville, the military museum out there. Recently I unveiled the Krupp gun out there, and there's so much education out there and history. I know Brett Wild from the Hunter Task Group Veterans Group would love to come and talk to us and have Council involved. He doesn't want any financial contribution from Council, which is good, but the educational content would be absolutely great.
So would that be—would it be possible for him to come? What would be better, for him to come here and talk to us, or for us to arrange a visit for interested heritage committee members and maybe Councillors as well? They do have an open day
Would be good. Okay, and he could bring a slideshow or something if he wanted to. Yes. All right. Would you like to put up a recommendation that they're called the Hunter Task Force, aren't they? Yes. The Hunter Task Force address the Heritage Committee meeting about their work at Skyville. Yes, I'd like to move that, and he has offered to come, which would be great. Great. Okay. Could we have a seconder for that recommendation, please? Mary, thank you. All in favour? Carried. Thank you. So the staff will get in touch with him, or if you've got contact details, Jill, if you could pass them to Andrew, we could organise that. Anything further, Venetia? I've actually got four questions. Four? Is that—
Picked a very good night. Good day. Question number one, is there any update on Tibbetts Barn and the removal and storage of the components which are laying on the ground rotting?
Andrew Kearnes(staff - Manager, Strategic Planning)
I don't have any immediate update other than our assets team have been asked to progress that matter further. So when I've got further updates, I'll certainly update the committee out of meetings. Yeah.
How about we pop that back on the agenda of the meeting rather than letting it come up in general business, in which case it will flag to Council that it's a matter that the committee believe needs addressing urgently .
Actually, it's only three because one of them has already been answered. You can have longer for each one in that case. Well, yeah. So this second question is, can we get a bit of an update on the heritage signage for the walking tours and heritage buildings? Because in 2015, it was worked in train to install heritage signage everywhere, and 10 years later we still have none.
Andrew, do you want to speak? That's the full question for that bit? I guess, yes. Okay. So there has been some of that, I think, was co-opted into the signage. pro signage and wayfinding project, but we can certainly get an update on what's happened, particularly around the walking tours. I think we did have some concerns with the walking tours, that they were going to places that weren't safe and that weren't readily accessible, but we can certainly follow up and see where people are being recommended to go from, say, the Tourist Information Centre, and also where we're up to with that signage. It's potentially as well a shovel-ready project for funding if it hasn't progressed any further. Michelle.
Back in 2015, 2016, because my manager was involved in that, and she brought the signage to the committee meeting and we approved it. There were changes and that, but then because of the bridge and Thompson Square, the project was put on hold until that was— and as far as I know, it was sort of just
Discussion next year as well. Cheryl. Cheryl, I can't see your light, so if you— Oh, sorry. No, it's fine for you to wave at me. I just— but both you and Jan, I can't see your light behind your screen. So if you've got your light on and I don't see you, I'm happy for you to call out or wave.
I just recall in the very first Heritage Committee meeting that I came to, we looked at the signage and wayfinding strategy, and as part of that there was a list of heritage sites that would be included in a walking tour, and we commented and added more or, you know, kind of— Provided comment on that, but it seems that we've not heard any more.
No, I think it fell off the radar, as Michelle says, because of Thompson Square, because many of the tours, Thompson Square was a pivotal part of many of those, and with the site closed for so long, I think it's just fallen by the wayside. So I think that's a useful thing to look into for next year. Any further on that item?
Venetia? Yeah, only that everyone's aware of where I work on the corner of George and Bridge Street, and the number of people that come and knock on our door and ask where the courthouse is,
Brochures, they have no— there's no signage anywhere to tell anyone where anything is. So we very often get people, we can hear them chattering out the front, so I go out there with pamphlets that I have prepared myself about the history of our building and explain to them how to get to the courthouse. So there are people doing these walking tours, but we have no supporting infrastructure for it
And it's the same topic, essentially. Is there any possibility of partnering with businesses and residents of heritage buildings that are along the route of these heritage walking tours to interact or provide information in terms of, you know, little brochures about their building, like I do?
To actually encourage people and give them more information, because based on the Heritage Walking Tour pamphlets, I have a display cabinet on the front veranda of our office, which has a whole heap of history about our building, but nowhere else has anything. And it would be really good, and I think it would be a great thing, you know, I'm not saying we should lumber owners of heritage buildings with standing there all day waiting in case someone turned up, but it'd be great.
If the buildings that are actually on the walking tour map were given, you know, a little bundle of brochures about their building or about history around it so that they could actually interact with these tour participants. I had six turn up yesterday.
Of organised? They were just spontaneous. And they were doing different tours that were on the pamphlet. So had they been to the Tourist Info Centre first to get a pamphlet? They had the pamphlets, but they couldn't work out how to get to the courthouse. So, yeah
I'll ask again to suggest that the museum is nearby and it's got a facility for answering all those questions. So if you just send people to the museum— I'm sorry?
I'm not sending people to the museum because they've already been over there, and then they turn up in front of the heritage building and there's no, there's nothing.
Well, for the buildings that aren't on the listing already, but for the ones that are on, like the courthouse, they would be able to get that information at the museum.
Came up years ago involving Windsor, but also Richmond, and I know there's tours for Richmond, and I know Carriage Oncomeroy pushed really hard for— Signage in Currajong, which again went by the board because, as I remember it, we were told that the signage has to be all uniform and so on and so forth, so it just didn't happen. Recently there was a discussion about —
Codes. QR codes, yes, that could go on the outside of a building. Yes. Like they could go on the fence or on the walls or something like that, in that metal
To like 18. You had a really limited number of properties you could include . Yes, and that, I don't really know how—it's probably easy to find or whatever. But there are brochures that the library and the Visitor Centre prepared and have been streamlined over the years, which you can access online. But there is, I know there is a thing about signage, having too much signage and using things like QR codes. Yep. Because we admire these beautiful buildings, but then we clutter them with a lot of signage and that, which takes away the ambience, and so that's why they— Look at more of having , like QR online
So that people can pull the information up. Sounds like it might be worth a few of us doing a test walk of the information that people are picking up from the museum and pretending that we don't know the area at all, and seeing if we can find it, seeing if we can find the things that are on the map and the level of information. So they're on the visitor
Yes. Yep. Maybe a few of us need to play tourist for the day and work out what, and make some recommendations for supporting infrastructure. But I think the courthouse is, I think if you don't know Windsor, the courthouse is difficult to find without signage because it's outside the town centre, unless you've got an understanding. Yeah. I remember those being developed.
So, yeah, maybe we need to test drive what's there and see, because some of that infrastructure becomes unreadable or disappears in the middle of the night or whatever as well. So it might pay for a few of us to spend our Christmas holidays playing tourists.
But if there's buildings that are housing businesses that are open during the day and, you know, potentially residents of houses that are listed on there, if they're interested in participating in something, it's just a matter of, you know, a flag being stuck in the garden . And then taken in at night. I'm not talking about, you know,
Massive amounts. I think the easiest way is probably for that information to be available via the museum or the online stuff so that people can, so that the homeowner doesn't have to come out and
Sorry, and I know on the tours that there were only a few private houses and that they always say this brochure includes many privately owned buildings which aren't open to the public but may be viewed from the street only. Yes
And a lot of our heritage owners do find it onerous, people's interest. I mean, I've had times when I've found it onerous. I have found people in my front yard, which is quite well gated. I'm not in the middle of the shopping strip, you know, but I have found people in my property. I have found a busload of Nowlands in my front yard taking photos of what they consider to be their ancestral home. It is a bit confronting. I know another former member of this committee who lives on a house that's very close to the street has people who let themselves onto her gated veranda and will peer into her lounge room. So not everybody has manners, and so hence the reluctance, I think, to put too much information.
Businesses, I think, are a little bit different. It's probably easier for us to do that with business premises in many cases, but for private homes, I think not everybody behaves well, unfortunately. Yep . Yep.
Sorry, we've got a whole heap of businesses in heritage buildings in Windsor that are open, you know, at least five days a week, nine to five. Some of them are open on weekends as well, and there is not a skerrick of heritage information about any of those buildings, and it's really shameful.
Well, look, it's noted, and we can beef up those tours. But I think it's probably beyond the scope of Council's resourcing at the moment. We've heard from the senior heritage officer that the listings are the thing that we're concentrating on. Once we've got that in the can, we will actually have a whole lot of information about all of those buildings that could seamlessly be put onto documents as well. I think I had Deb and then Mary, and Nathan.
I was just going to mention, I think the one that Michelle was speaking about, there was an app done called the Heritage of Western Sydney, which was developed by Camden. Camden Council were the developers of it, and it does include 20 stops, a driving tour of the Hawkesbury. Is that
It's still available. I don't know how well utilised it was or how— I'm not going to download it to look, but I do have it on there. But the actual tour won't download on this internet. But it's actually quite interesting, but it's probably something we could actually— I don't know if someone would want to speak to Camden to see if there's still— Mary
In developing it, wasn't he? Yes, and we went to the launch over at Penrith, I think it was. So it's Camden, Liverpool, Penrith and Hawkesbury , and it's, yeah, so it's to cover, I think, you know, all of Western Sydney. But it would be interesting to know from Camden Council who— I don't know how much of their heritage they've got left , but it'd be interesting to know. I don't know if people want to use apps like this, but it has got quite a bit of information on it, and it says it goes around, you know, many places, cemeteries, et cetera, et cetera. So it'd be worth knowing if it did work, because I know there was—it was grant funded, and it was done, and yeah, would just be interesting. I'm
Yeah, so it says it covers the Macquarie towns of Pitt Town, Windsor, Richmond and Wilberforce, and it also speaks about the grid street patterns and the village greens, town squares and church groups—church groups—St Matthew's Windsor and St Peter's Richmond, and single-storey cottages and cemeteries. So it has some information. I don't know with the rest of the map how much more information, but the main thing about it, because it is several years old, I guess we'd see if they've ever done an evaluation of how well utilised it is or whatever, and whether people do use these to get around. I know many people do, but I don't know if people coming here would be using that, and whether it would ever be worth doing just a Hawkesbury only which I know would require resources, but there's probably someone who could do it quite easily. Can
We flag this for follow-up with, firstly, for the app with Camden Council, and for further follow-up with the committee next year when we've got some resources available?
Can I make a quick observation? You certainly can. And this doesn't quite just to the Hawkesbury, but generally around Sydney. Having spent 12 years working in Europe, buildings of historical or cultural significance have plaques on them with just the date, name of someone who might have lived there, the name of the cottage. There is none of that. You could walk past an historic building and not even know it was there because they are not marked in any way, shape or form.
So there was a— there's been a series of plaques put up in the Hawkesbury over the years, not for a long time, not for the 27-odd years that I've lived here. We haven't done that. I think there was some done around the bicentennial and around the — we didn't mark anything, any particular structures for the bicentennial of the Macquarie towns. But there was also a program raised by the previous New South Wales government, a blue plaques program. It was quite restricted. They only had a very, very limited number. It was based on the blue plaque program used in the UK, and you had to have a notable person at the property rather than the dwelling itself, the site itself being notable, the person who lived there had to be, or who was associated with the site had to be notable.
And I think they allowed five for each LGA. So, and then suddenly nothing happened. I don't know that we got any blue plaques. Yes, we did
I just say one thing ? To go with what everyone else has said, there is a lot of material that has been already written, and it does make itself easy to, you know, there are short blurbs that have been written specifically for people that don't live in the area and makes it easy that if there are apps or different designs of things that, I know that the visitor centre, the lady that is in charge of the visitor centre, she spends a lot of time looking at the brochures that people take and how to reorganise the information that they already have. Okay. So, you know, she would be someone good to involve in the conversation as well
Or I'm just conscious of committing Christopher to do any work while he's not here. Can we flag this for discussion early next year and follow up on that, and including a chat with the VIC about sort of what people are looking for? And I think that test run of what infrastructure we're lacking. And if we get to the point where we've got a shovel-ready project for when some funding comes up, which is what we've done with the wayfinding and signage project. And that, I mean, we're years behind with our signage. We haven't got signage, readable signage on our major towns, let alone on our historic buildings. We really have a lot of catching up to do. So rather than promise that that will be a great project and we should just charge ahead with it, I'm not trying to be off-putting, but I am trying to be realistic about what we're likely to achieve.
So if we've got something that we can put in for funding when that— Sort of funding comes up, I think that's great, but in terms of committing resources to it at the moment, or taking that to council to commit resources to, I don't think it's possible at this stage. But we can certainly work it up so that it is ready for that sort of thing. Jill.
Another interesting angle is other areas have signs that might be a vacant site of what used to be there. Yes. And that is quite fascinating for people to
On Jill's suggestion, Cheryl and I had talks with somebody, I think in Andrew's department, about highlighting the village , which ran from the far side of Thompson Square almost to the park.
You know, marking them in some way. But we've had preliminary discussions, but we haven't progressed it from there. So we might get onto that next year.
Or even previous owners of particular sites, who established—who was there in the village of Green Hills, who owned it, what was there before. Yep. So it just sort of takes it back pre-Macquarie to—
Go back further. Mary. Just on the blue plaques, I just did look them up, and yes, it's about the person. So it's for Margaret Catchpole and for Thomas Vyatchi is where they are.
Just one more thing on that. I would like it to be noted that there were supposed to be engraved pavers as part of the livability project with heritage information outside heritage buildings, but that went by the by.
There were supposed to be engraved pavers as part of the livability project installed outside heritage buildings. That was discussed at length, in depth, and in great detail many, many times at the working group and at subsequent meetings and consultations. However, that disappeared. We have actually had no heritage
In which case, I'll thank you all for your work this year. I think it's really notable this year that we've really progressed the heritage listings. We're now looking hopeful towards packets of heritage listings coming both to this committee and to Council, which will provide some much-needed protection for the heritage buildings of the Hawkesbury, long, long overdue, and really good to see. What that will also do is free the senior heritage officer up to do all of these other projects that you'd like done as well. Thank you all for your work this year. Have a lovely Christmas and holiday season, and look forward to seeing you all back on the 3rd of March. Nathan.
Oh, that's a shame. Okay, so didn't get all the way through. We might check who he's contacting in order to do that . Yes, hello, Michael. Thank you all. I'll declare the meeting closed at 6.10, our shortest ever, perhaps.
