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G'day. Welcome everyone to the Heritage Committee meeting for the 5th of March 2026. Hawkesbury City Council acknowledges the Darug and Darkinjung people as the traditional custodians of the land of the Hawkesbury, and we pay respect to all Elders past, present and emerging, and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of this country. Committee members and members of the public are advised that in the event of an emergency, you will be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit following the guidance of our warden. I'd also like to advise that the minutes of the— sorry, that the meeting of Council committees are recorded. In the terms of the Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, this may involve the recording of personal information provided at the time of the meeting.
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So we have apologies from Dr Cheryl Ballantyne, Mrs Carol Roberts, Ms Deborah Hallam, and also from Erin Wilkins, who will join us for one item of the meeting. Mary. And from Councillor Durick. And apologies from Councillor Durick. Anyone else? Yeah,
We'll wait and try and fix that up. I'm getting a whole lot of feedback from this microphone. Can you hear that as well? I don't know what's causing it,
Does anyone have any declarations of interest for the matters for this meeting? Oh, that's a change. We can all stay in. Right. So the first item is the minutes of the previous meeting. Does anyone have any comments or changes to the minutes?
Okay, so we'll move on then to the next item. Oh, sorry. Thanks, Jill. Sorry. So moved, Councillor Redden. Could I have a seconder? Could I have a seconder, please? Carl, thank you. Sorry, I'm pointing. So I've got a very bad back and I'm a bit off my game, so I apologise.
We don't have any business arising from the minutes, but you'll note that there's an update on a number of those items, so we'll discuss those when we get to them.
I'm actually going to introduce our cadet strategic planner, who's going to have a presentation with this report. Sonia comes to us courtesy of a state government initiative, which is to have cadet people
Young people join Council across the state to support young people, but also to support strengthening local workforces and give these people a kickstart for their career. So we're grateful to have the skills of Sonia, who's studying architecture at Curtin University, majoring in urban planning. She's a local. She grew up in the Hawkesbury. I'll let her tell you about her recent Mongolian cross-cultural project that she was involved in separately, but she's joining us and assisting in our strategic planning department. So I can't grab her solely for heritage-related matters. She's involved in sustainability, land use planning, flood planning, and also our economic development team as well. So hopefully we'll get a broad experience while she's here until February 2027.
In terms of heritage, she's been helping me with planned improvements to our website information, clear statements of significance, pardon me, for our conservation areas. But in the short term, what she's been doing, which has been extremely helpful, is to do site visits with our casual strategic planner, who is a trained building surveyor. So we've got a trained building surveyor, an architectural student working together on a wonderful project of our heritage listing of our soldier settlement houses, and they were doing condition reports out in the field for me. So it's a really wonderful opportunity for cross-training, but also assisting in our heritage project. So I'm very grateful for that.
I might hand over to Sonia to take you through an important sketches that have been found by our library team.
Yeah. So as a brief introduction, late last year, council's records staff uncovered a box of original sketches by significant artist William Wells, done in the 1980s, and they depict historic outbuildings and houses within the Hawkesbury. Now this presents a valuable resource for council staff who are engaged in the research and listing of historic outbuildings and houses within the Hawkesbury. Next slide. Here we have a picture of the opening register in the artist's handwriting. We have collated 20 of the 53 sketches in this presentation. Some of the locations are cited only as descriptions rather than addresses, so there may be some difficulty in ascertaining whether they are still standing.
On the next slide, we have an old settlers cottage in Agnes Banks on the property of Peter Stewart, who was an orchardist. From this, we can also see the detail and the fine pencil work of the drawings, and speaks to the quality of the work. As an alternative example, we also have this book of sketches by another significant author who many of you will be familiar with, Daphne Kingston, and her work also captures buildings within the Hawkesbury region, and I'll pass that around now.
On the next slide, we have a side view from the north of a shared waterford. In the foreground of this sketch, you can also see what appears to be a field of cabbages, and this can be indicative of the agricultural history of not only the barns, but also the Hawkesbury LGA. On the next slide, we have some old buildings in Richmond on the corner of Francis Street and Benson's Lane. And on closer inspection, we can also see that this is an example of the Macquarie approach to planning and having the dwellings on the higher land and agriculture on the lowlands of the property. On the next slide, we have an old hay shed in Richmond on the corner of Cuppitts and Ingalls Lanes. From this, we can also see that even at the time of these sketches, a lot of them had come into disrepair.
On the next slide, please. This is a derelict barn, as described by the artist himself, and is in Richmond lowlands. On the next slide, we also have an old farmhouse in Wilberforce near the village area. This one is particularly interesting as it shows a raised barn, which is quite rare at the time of the farm.
The next slide is a slab shed on the right-hand side of Cornwallis Road, driving down from St Matthew's in Windsor Lowlands. As you can see in this sketch, a lot of the barns are left in a state of thick overgrown vegetation, which can inhibit repairs and the state of the buildings. On the next slide here, you'll recognise this two-storey wooden farmhouse at 375 Freeman's Reach, and also there's an example of this in Daffney's book on page 54.
On the next slide, we have some historic barns and stockyards in Freeman's Reach Road. And on the next slide, we have an example of some early cottages in Richmond on Windsor Street near St Peter's, with an addition to the rear end. On the next slide, we have sheds on the Cornwallis Road near Cupitt's Lane in the Richmond Lowlands, with the left shed now demolished. This next slide is another example of early cottages in Freeman's Reach, Richmond area. And on the next slide
We have a barn on the farm in Pitt Town Bottoms. This sketch also shows the early intervention of preservation to the barns with the timber strut propping up the front of the barn. The next one is also another example of sheds in Freeman's Reach Road. The next slide also is a dairy shed in Cupitt's Lane in Richmond West Side, another example of the agricultural ties within the Hawkesbury. This next slide also is a barn with a loft in Pitt Town Bottoms Road. The height of the barn is indicative of its use as a storehouse and for farmers for when the floodwaters rose. On the next slide, we have a slab shed at the rear of Goldfinders Inn in Carrajong. It was also once used as a shop on the west bank of Weeneys Creek.
Coming to the last slides, on this one we have Lockewell House in Carrajong Heights, which was next to a general store. And the last one is a slab shed in Freemans Reach Road. Thank you. Are there any questions?
I've been thinking about that collection since you mentioned it a little while ago, and I have a memory that they were presented to Council rec stops a while ago, so I don't know how you can confirm that, but I'm fairly sure that they were friends and that they were presented to the mayor for some occasion.
How many of those buildings actually still remain? I know two of them, one's burnt down and one washed away, but how many of the old buildings still remain? Is there any idea on that?
Unfortunately, we don't have a firm figure, as some of them are just descriptions of the barns themselves rather than actual locations, so it's hard to know at this point. Yeah, I
Think I can pick one of them, the one on Freemans Reach Road. So the barn is gone, and the house in front of it, you can just see the roof pitch and the flood door on the top storey, and I think that's the building that's now known as Mrs Cupid's Cottage at the Pioneer Village. So that's the, that's up a bit from the two-storey house that's now gone on Freeman's Reach Road. And council paid to relocate, to save and relocate the house, but, and knew that the barn was under threat and that the owner wanted to, the owner offered it, and nothing was done.
Madam Chair, from recollection, when we were doing the Slab Barn study, there are a number of those images which could actually be included within that study because they are still extant and worthy of having a good look at. Yes. Particularly the one at Benson's Lane, because that one is actually a fine barn that's well cared for, and it's good to actually have a, I guess, a sketch of that sort of time period.
In the image, I don't know about that image, but it could be the one I'm thinking of that we're helping to support , and it was in the timber slab barn study.
Okay. All right. That's great. They're beautiful drawings. It says they've gone to the gallery, so are we just going to wait to see how they're— are they going to be doing something about presenting them or exhibiting them or something?
I think it's worthwhile the committee recommending that we've just got a recommendation to note the update. I think we could probably add to that that where possible, those images be collated with the slab barn study as part of that record. Because, and I think if you were an owner of one of these properties, this would be a fantastic resource if you're trying to, you know, particularly if you're trying to put a barn back together or to replace lost fabric. I'm happy to do that. It
But also I think we probably need to recommend that the images are digitised and added to the local studies collection . Graham, you had your light on.
Yes, I did, Madam Chair. I think at a previous meeting, after the slab barn study was completed, we did actually talk about doing a local education arrangement and perhaps even showing off these barns within the gallery. And of course, these images would be a great asset to actually hang with that.
True. Do you want to add that as a third part, that it be used, that Council investigate using the images and the slab barn study in an education program? Can I add that? You can add that. Jan? That would be a great asset.
As an extension to that, I think it would be very interesting to get a collection from Daphne from these ones, and the FOHAC already have others, and to get them together.
We have it in the library. Oh, we've got the— okay. Yeah, it's not all accessible because there's probably 10 ,000 images. Oh yes, she was prolific. There's a lot of images. Right. But they are slowly being added. They're well organised in place by place, so like Freeman's Reach, whatever. And for those who aren't aware of it, she started taking photographs in the late 60s, and she then returned every— A couple of years and re-photographed the same item. So Angie then did her publications, the artworks, but she photographed. She also was very meticulous in going through real estate and newspapers looking for any other articles about buildings, so that if they were demolished or were renovated, she included that information.
She really was the most extraordinary resource. She didn't just take photos of the outside of buildings. You know, she was quite intrepid, and if the building was empty , she would often invite herself in and take photos of the inside as well. And she made friends with the owners, so she built up a system of trust with owners where she would continue to go back each every couple of years and encourage them, but also to keep recording what was happening.
Jan? As well as the galleries and various well-known works, I've got some of hers personally, her sketches, and other people might have that you could incorporate in that as well.
Yes, Madam Chair, I'm aware that Carol Roberts has some of that collection, and certainly my wife and I have some of that collection as well, so we could actually pool them and use them to advantage.
Good. I think that's an excellent project. So we've now got a recommendation in three parts. Firstly, that we note the update in respect to the outbuildings of the Hawkesbury Sketches by William Bill Wells. That we, that the committee recommends that these images, where possible, be added to the Slab Barn study information. That the images be added to the local studies collection, and that the images and the work of Daphne Kingston be used to prepare an education program. Is that the gist of it?
Madam Chair, greetings from Yung. Can I add? Welcome. Thank you. Can I add a point to that resolution, if I may? Sure I think these are a superb archival record, and they really ought to be attached to the inventory sheets for the listed items as well. And I think perhaps while Council has your fabulous cadet as strategic planner, perhaps that might be a simple project that could be undertaken to add these images to the inventory sheets so that they are more widely circulated for property owners and those researching the barns to have at their disposal.
Are you happy if I add that point about adding to the Slab Barn study, that it be added to the Slab Barn study and the inventory sheets of relevant properties? Are the mover and seconder happy with that? Thank you. Is everyone in agreement then? Excellent. Thank you.
So an education program and exhibition of available images, and we'll leave that with the Council to kick around at the next meeting. It's actually worth noting at this point that Council meetings now come with a public forum prior to the meeting, where members of the public can address Council on any items that are relevant to local government, but— And also items on the business paper. You get five minutes and a couple of minutes of questions, and it can run for up to an hour before a council meeting starts. So when this comes to council for discussion, can I suggest that members of the committee consider coming to and addressing council about the importance of these images and of Daphne's work and the usefulness of an exhibition and an education program to highlight Hawkesbury's heritage.
It would be really helpful if they heard from more than the councillors who are on this committee sitting in the meeting. Bringing some of your passion to that forum would be terrific.
Madam Chair, importantly, it's not only Daphne Kingston that has images of these fabulous buildings. There are many other artists, and Fohacerag has a great number of those, I think, within their collection, which is, of course, at the gallery already. So it'd be good to actually bring them all out and go through them and make it a real exhibition.
Michelle? The library also has the 1979 black and white photographs taken by Margaret Chadwick, which are quite— and there's a lot of the barns in those, so that'd be another addition as well.
So instead of being very specific in that recommendation about these images and Daphne's images, perhaps we talk about all the images. Is everyone comfortable with changing that clause? So where it says,
All right. All in favour? Thank you. Carried. Next is the Aboriginal cultural knowledge standards. Now Erin has asked that we call her so that she can dial in for this item.
Andrew Kearnes(staff - Manager, Strategic Planning)
Thank you, Madam Chair. So, this particular item is advising the committee of the new Aboriginal Cultural Knowledge Standards Framework that's been released by Aboriginal Affairs New South Wales. The standards are being released to provide a clear, practical guidance for both Aboriginal communities and those non-Aboriginal communities working with Aboriginal communities, and how researchers, consultants, government agencies can work with Aboriginal communities in ways that respect Aboriginal cultural heritage and cultural knowledge, which is obviously held by elders, knowledge holders and custodians. So, the standards actually come in two parts. So, part one is for Aboriginal community guidelines, and part two is the guidelines for non-Aboriginal people and organisations to work with Aboriginal communities.
So, for Council, it's an opportunity to align our local practices with a modern, respectful and community-led model of custodianship that has strategic value and alignment with Council's various strategies and policies and work that we have been progressing. So, that includes obviously the recently adopted Reconciliation Action Plan, our Environmental Sustainability Strategy, the Resilience Strategy, our Draft Aboriginal Cultural Interpretation Strategy, our Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Study, and the recently adopted Cultural Plan. So, the recommendation is for the committee to note the update and also that Council considers adopting these standards.
I was really hoping Aaron or a similar representative would be present. I wouldn't be comfortable discussing the Part One things, but I think the Part Two is, you know, good. I think alignment with our various documents is a good idea.
Madam Chair, look, I would certainly, I guess, support this from, and from my background, I think it's a two-way street, or it should be a two-way street. And reading in the document, or in 3.1.2 in particular, the ethical use and mutual sharing of information. Well, from my experience as a conservation architect, when it comes to, I guess, investigating Aboriginal things, they're normally taken out of the realm of my study, and that actually happens by others and included without us knowing what's being said. So I guess it's the mutual sharing of the information that really grabs me, because I don't think it's actually happened in the past, and I'm hopeful that that sort of information would be actually forthcoming from both sides, not just one side.
Well, I just wanted to make a comment because, in light of this sort of area, I just wanted to tell everybody that Hawkesbury Historical Society has invited Erin and Amy Way, who's the archaeologist involved in the Dargan's Cave excavation, to come to our next meeting on the 23rd of April. And everybody's welcome if you want to come and hear what the archaeologist and Erin's contribution. They think it's a very important discovery in terms of the height at which Aboriginal people were living in the Ice Age. Right. Wow. So yes, it just fits in. That's exactly what we were hoping to achieve with having them at the meeting so that we can have a dialogue about it.
Jan, would you mind sharing that information with either myself or Ian or Christopher, and we can send it round to the committee? Okay. So that people know exactly where and when. That would be great. I think there's a section on page 28 that I think really captures the spirit of these documents, where it says that truth-telling is not about shame, it's about completeness. A heritage that hides half of its history is intellectually and culturally impoverished, and that by moving down this path, we can then witness the complex formation of a nation. And I think that's really what we're hoping for. And in the Hawkesbury, that's particularly important. We have such rich history from that period that's frequently overlooked, and I think particularly with major...
With major projects going in, and I was going over some of the relevant heritage studies that haven't been done for the Richmond Bridge project and the potential loss of both First Nations and First Contact history in that project. That's just being ignored by the state government as it pushes forward. So hopefully these documents will make a difference. Can I just, I think this is a receive and note recommendation ?
Danielle, can I suggest something? Sure. Because if we— I'm assuming that by adopting these, that would mean for— does it mean both sections? Because I wouldn't— So
So they come as two parts. The first pertains to— to Aboriginal people's rights and responsibilities, I guess, under the standards. And the rest is for everyone else using or working in the space. So we've got a recommendation before the committee around that
We note the update and that we recommend Council consider adopting the standards as Council's own practice standards. The committee isn't comfortable with recommending the first part, the part pertaining to First Nations people, but is happy to recommend the second. I guess we're keen to be guided by what you think.
You're just breaking up a little bit. What I think, well, the other option we can do is that the committee recommends the second part, which is the part for organisations, and seeks guidance from the local Durrag and Darkinjung community about adoption of the first part. And you can then take that back, maybe take it to Murarna. And whoever else you need to take it to, and come back to us with a recommendation for the first part.
Saying that, that would be written by a First Nations person, and I probably would 100% agree with that and push for that, but I still want to be able to read what the
Yes, please. Erin, can I ask Erin something? Hi, Erin, it's Mary. Can you also, just for a bit more reading, can you look through the second part as well and see if there's anything in that that you think, from your perspective, we should know about, or we should alter? I mean, we're going to adopt it now, but I think it looks good, but I'd still be interested in what your opinion was on both sections of it. Thanks.
We can't pass it unless it comes back to the committee. We don't have another mechanism for passing it outside the committee cycle, but that's okay. We're meeting again in a few months. I don't think it will make a glaring difference.
Yeah, great. Thanks, Erin. So, is everyone— Thanks, Erin. Thanks, Erin. So, I think what we've got before us is a recommendation that the committee recommends Council adopt Part 2 and that Erin seeks further consultation, and or we seek further input and consultation via Erin for the adoption of Part 1. Is everyone happy
Sorry, say it again? Why would— It's not that we don't support Part 1; it's that we don't want to be making— that's the part for Aboriginal cultural knowledge holders, and we don't feel comfortable making that recommendation because we're not those people.
Thank you, and I respect— If I could add to that, Erin, it's because sometimes, as we know, there's differences of opinion within your community, and it would be just really good to know that, you know, everyone was across it before it's adopted into a sort of formalised state.
Back to other— Organisations within the area of the LGA. Great. Thanks, Erin. No worries, thank you. Mary, are you happy to move that? Certainly. Can I have a seconder, please?
Chair, before we actually leave that, I wanted to clarify, if I could. On page 28 again, it's the very first paragraph where it refers to a zero-sum game. I don't understand what that means. Can anyone tell me?
Intersection of Aboriginal cultural heritage and colonial heritage is often framed as a zero-sum game, where elevating one necessitates the erasure of the other. Does someone want to speak to that?
I looked through that when I read that. That also stood out to me as how that was framed. But I just took it to mean that, as it says, when one—it's almost like if you're sort of dealing with one, the other one's eradicated, rather than, as it says further on, combining them together and acknowledging both aspects of it. If there's a colonial heritage on an Aboriginal sacred site, et cetera.
And I think, look, I think if we look at something, for example, like the statue of Governor Macquarie in Macquarie Park, which has been vandalised in the past, it tells Macquarie's story and Macquarie's town planning story, but makes no mention at all of his impact on the Darug people and Aboriginal people across the colony at the time. That is, I think, a fine example of a zero-sum game. It's all about the colonial heritage and nothing about Darug heritage, and that, I think, is perhaps what we're trying—that's that more complete story that we're hoping that these documents allow us to tell.
And it doesn't mean the statue has to come down. It just means that there needs to be the rest of the story added to the statue. Macquarie was a fine town planner, but he was also the leader of a colonial settler government. And massacred. And ordered a number of massacres. Jen, have you got your light on? I can't see it round the..
Yeah. That was one thing that occurred to me when I read it, that nowhere in those three things that we're looking at did it talk about how the community was looking at maybe rectifying some of this. Like, we were thinking of the long term, we would need to rectify the imbalance in Macquarie Park or anywhere else in the district. And I didn't see anywhere in all that that that was specifically mentioned more than just a general concept of. And I don't know whether that covers it or whether there's that other aspect of physically actually trying to balance the physical things that are in the community about both cultures.
It comes down to truth telling. If we're going to tell one side, let's tell the whole story. And you know what? That statue gets vandalised every year on Anzac Day. And you know why? Because, you know, our frontier wars, the wars that we fought, have never been recognised in the Hawkesbury, and they are one of the biggest and first and most gruesome of all of them. And it's never spoken about.
So this is where that relevance and that priority and that equalism and that respect for both cultures and both heritages needs to be played side by side.
I think the next step is to take the, and that's part of the recommendation from the committee, is that council now takes these documents and starts building them into the next iterations of our cultural heritage studies and our interpretations. And looking at them, you know, when we start to do things like more signage works, memorial plans, all of those things. Christopher, are you— Well, I was just going to mention briefly, there is work being done on the…
Sorry, I just want to mention to the committee that Council is working on a McQuade Park master plan, and I did mention to the people who are working on that plan the very issues that Erin's just been speaking about. So there may be an opportunity coming up.
And I'll just note before Christopher starts that the information contained in the heritage listing is a confidential item. If you want to discuss the heritage listing, can I ask you to signal that so that we can go into confidential session and stop the recording. If a few people signal that they want to do that, I'll put all of that together so that we can go into confidential and then come back out and deal with the part of the business that isn't confidential. Thanks.
Thanks, Madam Chair. The potential need for the state listing of the property at Glasgow House at 394 George Street, Windsor, came to the attention of Heritage Committee members in early 2024, when works were planned to replace the awning at the front of the property, which had been previously damaged by a truck in late 2023. Now , the temporary removal of that awning generated a lot of public debate. That culminated in the Heritage Committee discussing it in May 2024 and recommended that consideration be given by Council to nominating the property for state heritage listing, a position that was subsequently endorsed by Council. Now, throughout 2025, we updated committee about various progress, and that culminated in the Heritage Listing Working Group being given substantially the same information that you've been given, with some amendments to the nomination form.
So we attempted to strengthen up the uncovered information about the quality of the carver that had done a lot of the work, all the other really good representation of the skills of an Irish-based sculptor slash stonemason, stone carver, and we wanted to beef that up in the nomination form. And we thought, in case the committee comes across a similar issue, it's best that we return this information to the Heritage Committee, and that will set you up, hopefully, in a good position should these other matters come up again. So that's what we've attempted to do. Obviously open to feedback where committee members feel that there might be more beefing up that might be required of the nomination itself, but we acknowledge— The help that we've been given along the way by committee members with information, by the former chairperson of the Hawkesbury Branch of the National Trust of Australia, New South Wales Branch.
We acknowledge all this help along the way. We also acknowledge internal help from a strategic planner that was made available to this project, which I'm very much grateful for. And to come to this point and to uncover—it's really like peeling skin off an onion. The more you peel it off, the brilliance of this building... I mean, when I was initially asked by the heritage committee, ‘Do I feel, in my opinion, that it's worthy of heritage listing?’ I said yes, but I had no idea how much we would uncover as we came along this journey. And to me, it is so worthy of state listing. I really am lost for words.
Madam Chair, I think the report and even the confidential section is just very well done, and I acknowledge that wholeheartedly at this meeting. And I have no hesitation in recommending that it go ahead.
Anyone else? Madam Chair, I just wanted to say that I thought there was an aspect of Robinson's connection to the business community and the importance that that had that I'd like to talk to Christopher about, with perhaps including that in the listing, but I can do that privately with Christopher.
I have to say the little quips from the newspaper were absolutely charming. It's so reflective of the Hawkesbury. It's one of those things where you look at it and think, really, so much has changed and yet so little has changed as well. I think the report gives a beautiful sense of place, actually, within which this building sits. So it was a really nice read, as well as, yeah, just extraordinary work , the building itself is just... Unbelievable .
Scottish background, and came together like a marriage of skills with an Irish stonemason. So it was—he understood what he had as an employee, it was just—and that created this wonderful building which showcases their skills
So I think we're all in furious agreement that we send the listing off, so that the committee endorse the final draft state heritage listing nomination and forward it to the New South Wales Heritage Council, noting that Jan Barkley-Jack has some further information to be added. Michelle?
Just a little comment to add to the end of that. Mr Robertson is buried in the Presbyterian cemetery opposite the railway station with a very poor plain headstone, and when I do tours or go past there, I always feel really sad that his own headstone is very unremarkable compared to the ones that were created by his shop and the people that worked with him.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a question through you for Christopher. Has there been any discussion with the owners in terms of whether they are supportive of the nomination for state listing? The reason I ask is because there's often reluctance by the Heritage Council to pursue state listing when the owner is not supportive of it. So I'm wondering if their opinion has been canvassed.
Not as yet, through Madam Chair. That does form part of what the report was talking about coming to the committee, and if the committee is happy with that, we would notify the owners that we intend to send this to the Heritage Council. Okay. Thank you.
Jan. Madam Chair, I know the owner, so I'm happy to be involved in that , not a discussion, but if you need to have some person that knows her with you.
There you go. You've got a friend and a accomplice. Anything further? So could I have someone move that motion, please? Councillor Reardon, and seconded Michelle. All in favour? Carried. Thank you. Which brings us, I think, to general business. Do we have any general business? Update on matters. Oh, sorry. Update on matters. I'm getting ahead of myself. Update on matters. Who is this? Who
Is doing this? I can cover a couple of these ones. So the first one there is obviously discussion at the previous committee meeting in terms of the opportunity for Task Force veteran to come to a future committee meeting and, I guess, explore opportunities. So yes, we're progressing with that, and hopefully at a future meeting in the not too distant future, we'll be able to facilitate that. Also, I guess picking up on the application for state listing of the 13 timber slab barns that were identified in the slab barn study. So we've submitted a request to State Heritage Listing for delegation from Council to discuss the matter. In terms of the seeking an update in terms of the heritage signage program, so we've sort of indicated there that there's further discussions we need to have happen with Cultural Services, so we'll bring that matter back to a future committee meeting.
We've asked the question of Assets. Assets told us they were considering that matter about including some costs for restoration works on Tebbutt's Barn, but I have to bring that back to a future meeting because I didn't get that information in time.
So I think we can probably reveal that that was discussed amongst the councillors on Tuesday night, and it looks like there might be a small bit of money to at least get the materials, or to do some stabilising, perhaps some stabilising, but at least to stop any further damage. We emphasised that need at least. So this will be something that comes hopefully to Council in our budget considerations. We'll get the draft operational plan and delivery plan come to Council in— Month or so, it would, again, that's another item that would be helpful for people to come in and speak on before, and then it comes back to Council for adoption in June.
Mary? I'm not sure how much information we'll get for informing that decision, but it would be good to have. I know it's been discussed in here, and I know we've discussed the lifting of timber off the ground, etc. And my understanding is that the works would be in terms of just, you know, to a state of not having it deteriorate any further. But it would be good if we, the councillors on this committee, would know exactly what that would entail, so we can ensure if we're passing something to be done that it's adequate to carry out that function.
Madam Chair, look, from my point of view, as a conservation architect who deals with timber a lot and knows how it can degrade very quickly, this is a really poor state that Council is actually allowing historic fabric to sit on the ground and just rot away. And the longer that stays, then the less valuable that material is, if it's going to be useful at all, and hence, of course, increase the cost of whatever is proposed by Council to do. So I guess I'm really disappointed that action hasn't been taken long before this. And here we are, we've got another rain event that we're involved with now, and we've got no protection.
Yes, unfortunately you're preaching to the choir here. So the next step, I think, is to start speaking directly to the council meeting. And I would urge you to come when these minutes come to council and use the public forum to address the council meeting. There are five of us on this committee, but there were three of us here this evening. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we have the sway in the chamber to get all the money that we want when it comes to budget considerations. So whenever people can come in to address the council meeting, I know it's an additional impost, and you're already on the committee, but the more pressure that we can exert, particularly when it comes to budget consideration time, the better, frankly.
Many of you would be aware that Carol and I do actually own a state item, and Heritage New South Wales have actually been contacting us about bringing a delegation out to the Hawkesbury to actually look at some of the early state listings. And I just wondered whether that might not be a prudent time to actually have a get-together out here amongst it, and whether that's something that Council could actually progress with Heritage New South Wales.
As I understand, it's a delegation that is coming out to actually view state items and to actually look at exemptions and other things pertinent to particular early items that were recognised within the Hawkesbury. So I don't know how many are involved, but certainly there are some that they'll, I guess, probably a day's worth that they'd be coming out to, or maybe it's longer. I don't know.
I think we probably need to discuss how best to approach that and then work out who and when we can meet with them. Working out who's actually involved at their end is probably the first step . But perhaps we can—is it the Heritage Office? It's not the... Do we know who from the Heritage Office is involved?
Right. I might leave that in Mr Kern's capable hands, and we'll go from there. And perhaps we can have a little delegation, which I'm sure they'll thoroughly enjoy. We'll enjoy it. Anything further?
Yeah, Madam Chair, I've got just one matter, if I can. Sure. At the last Hawkesbury Branch National Trust meeting, it was raised by one of our committee members, the structural and, well, rather the condition at the moment of a heritage item at 353 Freeman's Reach Road in Freeman's Reach, and it was just noted that the timber veranda is in a severely dilapidated condition, and it was requested that it be brought to council's attention, which I'm sure it may already be, at Christopher's knowledge. But if that could just be noted, and perhaps there might be opportunity for council to engage with the property owner and encourage them to undertake some maintenance work or repair, whether they just need some advice or direction. But it's in a pretty dilapidated condition and at risk of collapsing.
This is general business, Jeff. I just wanted to mention, because I came across this today, it was on Council's website, and it talks about some upcoming works at Windsor Catholic Cemetery. And people might not be aware, but there's a report on Council's website about some of the works that have been done and that are going to be done. And I just wanted to flag it so people might be interested in looking at it, any of us that have got an interest in the cemetery.
Thank you. And some of you may remember that Council did quite a lot of work and a lot of education around cemetery maintenance some years ago when Craig Johnson was working for Council, working with the Brookwood Cemetery Trust around maintenance and all of our heritage cemeteries, of which we have a lot, some of which are managed quite well by the community. But, yeah, they are, and it did change a number of Council's practices, I think, like our
Groundskeeping practices. This is just part one of the survey, and it shows some of the work that's been undertaken and going to be undertaken, which is—
It's an interesting little cemetery too. It shows, particularly in relation to the Anglican cemetery, it really is indicative of the place of the two different religions within the early settlement of the Hawkesbury, one up on the high ground and the other in the bog. Jan.
Just to remind you, there is a conservation management plan done by Mary Casey in relation—it was when the road widening was taking place, and I wrote the history of that, and she did the conservation management plan. So if anyone's interested in getting more information, I think it is online.
Is it in the library as well, Michelle? Yeah. I think we hold most of the conservation management plans for Hawkesbury items in the local studies collection. So if anybody is after a conservation management plan for an item, that's a good first place to start.
I visit Thompson Square reasonably often, and I guess I'm somewhat disgusted is not the right word, really disappointed with what's come out of the liveability project and the alfresco dining area around all of those buildings within Thompson Square. And I just wonder, is anybody doing anything about it? Is council likely to do something about it? It looks like it's just had a backward step. Certainly not a forward step, and I guess perhaps there needs to be an open discussion about what can be done.
So there is some—we were alerted to some money that's been put aside, or is in the process of being put aside in next year's budget for some work in the... The corner area of Thompson Square. There is also some furniture and shade umbrellas to go outside the businesses that are there. But I agree wholeheartedly with you that, and it's, I think it's fair to say that that portion of Thompson Square was sacrificed in order to put more money into Windsor Mall. That certainly wasn't the original vision for the liveability project. It was a decision of the previous council to focus on gas lamps and some faux Victorian heritage items into the mall, and repeated attempts at changing paving that depleted that project of the money that should have gone into making the top end of Thompson Square a better and more livable space.
And I think, certainly, I'm on the public record, as is Councillor Lyons-Buckett, as not supporting those decisions, and I think it's really regrettable.
Madam Chair, from my point of view, I think it's just bad design. That whole area, you can hardly fit a table and a couple of chairs around in that space outside the eateries. And yet we've still got the car parking, which I think is probably an absurdity to actually have that in that location. And perhaps, you know, that car parking could be moved elsewhere , and that sort of eatery section extended out into the roadway where the cars are, and that would actually then give a bit of area in which An area that would be useful, far more useful than the little bit that it has now.
Mary? I agree wholeheartedly. I think there's a real scope for the whole area to have a, you know, to be re-looked at. It is unfortunate it wasn't the priority in the livability. I mean, for some of us it was, and I think it should have been dealt with first. But that's what's happened now. But there's— they're not. I have checked recently and asked some questions about what's happening there, and they're not replacing the shade structures. They'll just be umbrellas on the tables, from what I believe, and I agree with you, Graham. But move a car park in this area, and let me tell you, there's an army of people that will go ballistic. Put a tree in and a car park. There's a lot of people think that parking is the ultimate asset to have, rather than to think of a public gathering space in that area, which I think would be beautiful, with the park there, etc.
But we can pursue trying to have that looked at in another way, I guess. It would be really wonderful to have it reflect the significance of it and to have something done. But unfortunately, that didn't occur in that project, and so it's perhaps something for the future or something that we can go back and revisit.
The amount of money that is being mooted to do something to that little section of Thompson Square certainly won't be taking out any car parks. You know, I think the— Unfortunately , the horse has bolted, and those who wanted the restoration of the 1985 attempts at Heritage , you know, make-believe in the mall won, and those of us who wanted money put into maintaining Australia's oldest public square lost, and this is the result.
Jan? Madam Chair, I just wanted to point out that there's a lot of community support for that view too, and one of the probably lesser-known committees, which has no power— we're working on that, but we have no power—but at least we are very supportive of that position if you're collecting people together that are complaining. And that is that the Mayor had invited all the heads of community groups and heritage groups to meet, and we have now gone off on our own to program what it is we see needs to be done throughout the town centre, particularly with signage and things. And so we are putting that together, and then we were trying to discuss with various people on Council who have roles that connect community groups to Council, like the PR person and the Tourist Officer, actually getting with them and trying to get more of this put onto agendas.
So there is a lot of support from the community groups, the National Trust, Historical Society, DOTS, the Experience Group, the Business Group. They're all involved . In that group that's meeting together to try and come up with a plan ourselves.
Yes, I understand there's some money left over in the livability budget to fix up anything like that. I mean, we're talking about Thompson Square, as you say, it's the oldest square, and it's at the entrance, one of the entrance to the Hawkesbury. So I think it's something maybe we could work on.
I don't think there is any money. There was money taken out of the roads budget and put to propping up the livability project when it looked like it would go over the grant deadline, but that money then went back to the roads budget. So I don't think there's— I don't think there is
Madam Chair, could I move a motion that the committee seeks some feedback from whatever this initiative the mayor has going, which councillors don't know about, but could we perhaps have some feedback on that so that we can all be involved?
So the committee seeks feedback from the mayor's initiative to meet with local heritage and business groups regarding Thompson Square and— Windsor town centre. Windsor town
A great voice, as I said, but we're very happy to discuss because it covers a wide range of community within that area. And it's been very interesting because things like discussing terminology have come up. The business group have certain terminology and, you know, the Historical Society and the National Trust can't accept conservation or, you know, the way they use the word. So we've been having really interesting discussions that those sorts of groups, the heritage groups and the other business groups, don't usually get together and have. So while nothing in concrete or grand is coming out of it, I think there is a lot of interesting connections and possibly pushes for later that will come from it.
We're not meeting with the mayor very often, but we're going off on our own to work out our own agendas, and then we go back and report that to the mayor, who, you know, just gets—he's not actually involved. He's only just hearing what our views are.
Okay, I'd like to see that translated to the council body as a whole. It's no use one person having knowledge of something like that if it's not documented or passed on anywhere. So we
Very happy to come back to all. No, but I just, I think it's really interesting to have that level of information exchange and especially to get uniformity around sort of various things. But I think the problem is that if we, you know, we've got to be careful that people don't think they're going to be getting something if that's not a reality within the council chamber. I think that's the problem.
I can also add to that, Mary. I think the mayor has been highly hamstrung in terms of what he can actually achieve. So I don't think there's a lot of traction with the mayor, solely, and I think he's relying heavily on getting the information from the committee that I don't know what he's intending to do with that. But from my perspective, that's one of the reasons why the committee has, or that group has, gone out independently, because the mayor does seem very much tied.
Thank you. Anything further for general business? Just one thing to mention, just as a bit of a heads up, Council has started discussing streamlining Council's committees. So we're due to put in place an Access and Inclusion Committee again, and so that will give Council three committees, and then the working groups that sit off this committee as well. So tightening up terms of reference, but also hopefully having some consistency around where those committees meet, be it in the chamber or a committee room as we used to do previously, and whether those committees are live streamed and webcast. So there's no implied criticism of this committee or how it functions. Just be aware that that discussion is ongoing with Council, and Council will come to a decision at some point in the near future about what this committee really— the committee will stay the same.
We won't dissolve this committee. There'll be no changes, particularly to your terms of reference. It will just be tightening that up. The only thing that may change is whether we continue to meet in here and whether we're live streamed and recorded. Watch this space, I guess. Graham.
Thanks, Madam Chair. Look, there's one thing I forgot, and I'm just looking at the previous minutes, and it's in regard to the working group for looking at heritage listings. I just wondered if there were further listing sheets for us to look at at this point in time, or whether that's still coming.
Through Madam Chair, so our focus has been, from our working group meeting, we decided to have roughly about 30 items to come to the next planning proposal. So we're putting all our effort into that. So we've received feedback from two of the heritage listing working group members, including yourself, Graham, and we're working through the information that we received. So we're trying to get those heritage inventory sheets, which mostly have already gone to the working group, get them ready to go with a planning proposal. So it's basically like a taxi cab rank, where at the moment we've got the completion of the first planning proposal from the timber slab barn study reaching its end. We're currently underway with the second planning proposal of the barn study, which is being done by our strategic planners.
Soon as they've done that work and that's progressed, they're waiting for straight off that the next cab coming off will be the soldier settlement houses that we discussed at the last heritage listing working group. So I've got limited resources, all of my resources, including me, are focusing on that. Getting that ready for that planning proposal, so we'll have those 30 items. After that, as required, I'll be coming back to the Heritage Listing Working Group. But as you're probably aware, we had much more than 30 that came last to the Heritage Listing Working Group. So it may be some time before I'm feeding another 10 items, which was what was requested by the Heritage Listing Working Group, to come back to them.
So there may be some time before I'll actually be feeding more items to the Heritage Listing Working Group, which will be as individuals, not as a group meeting as we discussed.
Thank you. I think that brings us to a close, unless anyone has any other questions or comments. I think that might be a record, finishing before 6.30.
