Public Forum

Thank you, Councillors, and those in the gallery to the 10th of March public forum. This evening we've got four speakers. The first speaker is Angela Bichler, is it? And then there's three, that's on item 9.3.1. Before we start, I'd just like to acknowledge that Hawkesbury City Council acknowledges the Darug and Darkinjung people as the traditional custodians of the land of the Hawkesbury. We pay respect to the Elders past, present and emerging, and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people as First Peoples of the country.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Members of the public attending the public forum this evening are advised that in the event of an emergency you'll be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit following the guidance of our warden. I would also like to advise that in accordance with clauses 5.2 and 5.3.4 of the Code of Meeting Practice, the public forums are recorded. In the terms of the Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, this may involve the recording of personal information provided at the time of the public forum. The provision of any information that is recorded is voluntary. If any person does not wish to be recorded, they should not address or request to address the public forum.

The gallery can be seen in the livestream video, and if you do not wish to be recorded in the livestream, please move to the foyer and we will turn our four-way speakers on for you. The recordings may be made available to other persons where such access is in accordance with the relevant regulations, and the recordings are stored on Council's record management system and uploaded to Council's website. For the benefit of those persons who will be addressing the public forum tonight, it is expected that you'll refrain from making any insult, allegation or personal reflection against any person present or not at this public forum. This request relates to both your address to Council and any answers given in response to questions from Councillors.

Finally, it's also requested that if you've got your mobile phone on you this evening, can you please either turn it off or turn it to silent. Thank you, Mr Mayor.

Thank you, General Manager.

Those are speaking to address the forum this afternoon. It's been explained to you, I think, in the lead-up to it. You have five minutes. Angela. Sorry, was there anybody else that needed to declare any interest in the two

Matters that are going to be discussed in the public forum? Angela, thank you. Mr. Mayths. Mr . Mayth, I have an interest in the— Is there something in front of your light there, Councillor? A plant. I'm collecting flowers, Mr. Mayor. I have an interest in 9.3.1, the significant development applications. My son is a member of the Wilberforce Fire Brigade, and the DA pertaining to the new fire shed is one of the DAs listed. Thank you, Councillor. It's a

Less than

Significant

Non-pecuniary

Interest .

Have a go this time, Angela.

I'm pretty short. It says optimum position, but maybe not. Hi, Angela. I am one of the residents that lives down Yeomans Road, North Richmond. We're down the bottom of the road. That's sort of the bottom of that road, which is sort of the furthest away from the development proposal. So this notification of development proposal was received at 8:30 this morning in the post. So lucky I was heading out to work late, and I received the post. But firstly, I'd like to note that during this whole last five months since the development began, it's disconcerting that people start developing without any DA whatsoever. So this particular owner of the land decided to put footings in even before the first DA was approved.

They put signage up. All the neighbours had no idea what was going on. It's totally unacceptable. I find it ridiculous that people are allowed to put massive signage up and then put arrows on it and pretend it's artwork. The whole community's been laughing about it. No one has been able to answer me from Council or have returned my phone calls, nor have they returned the phone calls of any other people in the area. Honestly, it's, you're our council. We expect, correspondents, we expect some sort of acknowledgement for our concerns. That's the first part. The whole process has been done quite what we think is sneakily and underhandedly. And lo and behold, the actual plans that I see now, the actual entry of the McDonald's slash KFC slash daycare centre, the pylons that are sitting there for the entry are still there.

So obviously this was in their sites from the beginning. They went in for a second DA for a house, a large house and an actual shed, which is great. Everyone would have been happy with that. But then work stopped and then we found out something else was happening altogether. So I don't think, and a lot of others will be obviously voicing during this next few period, weeks of, what do they call it, display. Forgive me because I'm not really familiar with the terminology around developments. I've just really just taken it on today because my neighbour who is going to come, he's actually in Tasmania. So I've just taken it upon myself just to discuss, I guess, what we think is totally inappropriate for the area.

We haven't gone into details yet with respect to the RU2 landscape and also what it means in terms of all the LEP issues, potential LEP issues, the DCP issues and potential SEPP issues. Now, from what we can see, just looking at it, traffic. This is a $15 million development. What about the roads? The whole area, the whole corner, there needs to be a set of lights. There's no footpath. There's no nothing. It will require a lot more than $15 million to be able to get this development done. Who's going to pay for that? When we already have problems with our rates and everything else, we don't have enough money for all this. Who's going to foot the bill here? I certainly won't be as a ratepayer.

I won't want to be doing that. I think that the actual other concerns are mainly environmental. The historical significance of the area behind this lot is Nevalen. As we all know, that's the only surviving piece of land that actually has historical significance in terms of the whole Yeoman's Dam system. It's a shame that we are losing that much heritage in the Hawkesbury. I've only been here for seven years or eight years, and the landscape is changing so rapidly. It's quite sad. That's a personal opinion, obviously, and doesn't really wash with an objection. The safety of the children at Colo High School and the kids that will be running across going to Maccas, it's just a major safety hazard.

The area is just too premature. There's no sewer. There's no, like, even the internet's not working properly. It's way too premature. This development, we think, is way too premature for our area. Anyway, that's just an initial concern that we all have, a lot of people have, that the McDonald's slash KFC franchises aren't really welcome this side of the bridge, on our side of the bridge, because we've already got one in Richmond. We really don't need one five minutes apart. In any case, like, the next lot is up at Lithgow. You know, something more halfway would probably suit better. So that's all I've got to say, but pretty disturbing that things just happen in the Hawkesbury without permission, and I see that happening a lot.

And I will be watching things more closely in the area and notifying people of what's happening because everything seems to happen without anyone noticing. Thank you for listening and, yeah.

Thank you, Angela. Your earlier comments are noted. We can make contact with you and provide information on what your rights, entitlements and direction you might want to take.

Yep. Thank you. Thank you

Sorry, as a Councillor.

Thank you. Thank you, Angela, for addressing us today and for raising your concerns, which I know are shared by other people who've contacted us about it. Did you say—I missed what you said at the start—did you say you got a notification letter this morning? Is that what you said?

Yeah, it was this morning. I only got the letter in the mail this morning.

Okay. And did that say that there was an exhibition period in which people could make submissions?

I've got it right here.

Yes, it says... can the public see—hang on a sec.

I think tonight is the night you guys actually put it into that process . Is that what happens? No,

We're not making a decision tonight. No that's just listing it in a list of significant developments. But I was just—the reason I asked about if you got notification about public exhibition was to clarify for the community that they would have

Not— Oh, sorry, there is—sorry, there is, Mary—there is an exhibition period, 13th of March to the 27th of March.

Okay, just to clarify that for people who did want to participate in that, and they can send a submission to Council during that exhibition time.

Yeah, we will be putting a comprehensive submission in due course. Thank you. Thanks.

Councillor Creed. Sorry, can you just clarify, you just said the 30th of March to the 27th of March? 13th

Of March

To the 27th

Of March. Thanks.

Thank you, Angela. Thanks.

Councillors, excuse me. The second, there's three speakers for the 9.5.1. It's the Western City Infrastructure Grant Programs. Mr. Steve Payne.

Good evening. I'm Steve Payne, resident of Kurrajong. Thank you for the opportunity to address the Council, the Mayor and the General Manager on this very important matter. I'm here to talk about the upgrade or the rebuild of the Richmond Pool. First of all, I'd like to tell the Councillors and the General Manager a piece of local history. My father, the late Rodney Payne, ran the Richmond Swimming Pool from when it first opened in the 1960-61 summer and ran the pool for five years. My mother ran the canteen at the pool. When my father left running the pool and Stan Tilley took over, my mother continued to run the canteen at the pool for a further six years. I literally grew up at the pool.

I learned to swim there as a youngster, self-taught, and since my father and my mother left the pool, I've remained as a member of the swim club, Hawkesbury Swim Club, until I was in high school. In my adult years, I've become a regular user of both the pools in the Hawkesbury, being Oasis and Richmond Pool, as well as other pools such as St Mary's, Penrith, Blacktown, SoPAC at Homebush. To name a few. I was a lifeguard at Penrith Pool for eight years. My son Michael Payne is currently a lifeguard casual at both the Oasis and Richmond Pools, and he also swims there as an ultra-marathon swimmer. Plus my wife Jenny is a casual swimmer at both pools. Basically, from my involvement in the pools since basically two years of age, I have a good and functional idea of what makes a good pool and what works at a pool.

As a family, we've been invested in the use of both local pools, despite some of the issues around opening hours at Richmond Pool and which is critical, some of the issues at Richmond Pool over the opening hours, which is similar to many of the regular swimmers at the pool. My son Michael was featured at the pool in various photos in the media at the official opening of the announcement of— of the rebuild of the pool in 2022, along with the then mayor and Robin Preston. At that time, the proposal was to build an eight-lane pool, and it was on the website that it would be an eight-lane outdoor 50 metre pool. The current swimming pool is a six-lane pool and has been a great asset to the people of the Hawkesbury, but has been underutilised due to being a six-lane pool.

It was once well used when my father was the manager of the pool and was heavily used in summer by local residents. But as time has passed, it has become not really fit for purpose due to only having six lanes. Evidence of an example of this is Saturday mornings when the pool opens at eight o'clock, squad use two to three lanes, and they have three to four different organisations that run swim squad. So the use of the pool is significant on Saturday mornings. In addition to that, there are two lanes that are being used for learn to swim, leaving one lane for general use. In that one lane, we have people that walk, people that play, and people that swim laps, like myself, and it's quite chaotic. One lane.

Locals are generally turned away from swimming on Saturdays in particular because of that. It's become a real issue, and I know this because I swim with many regulars at all of the pools that I frequent, in particular Oasis at Windsor. And that's the talk, that they don't go there because of the chaotic nature of the use on Saturdays in particular. I have noted on the council page that an eight-lane pool would replace the current six-lane pool, plus a 25 metre indoor pool and a kids splash park, which would be a perfect fit for my world and I believe for the local area. But the concept plan or drawing indicates a six-lane pool to be built to replace the current six-lane pool. If a six-lane pool were to be rebuilt, I believe this would be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for a new and fit-for-purpose facility.

The opening hours for an eight-lane pool and being an all-year-round pool would be just fantastic for the local community, which is absolutely growing at a rate of knots. I'm sure that this new facility with an eight-lane 50 metre pool would be well supported by our growing Hawkesbury population, and it would give an all-round council-run pool, it would have a number of programs that schools and parents would access.

Sorry? Can nine

Please have one more

Minute. One minute. Yeah okay. It would be used for

Such things as learn-to-swim programs, parties, regular school-based activities, which would be accessed by the local schools. I do understand there's a cost involved, a substantial cost involved in upgrading the pool, but given that there is a government grant up for grabs, it would help offset the cost of this. I urge the council to stay with the eight-lane option, but if a six-lane option were decided upon, I recommend it be abandoned. Thank you very much.

Questions?

Thank you. Thanks, Steve. How do you feel about the inclusion of a gym in that precinct? Do you think that's a necessity or an addition, or...?

I think a gym would be good for that facility. It would definitely attract other people other than just the swim community. Evidence of that is the Oasis pool, where they have a gym. That gym is too small, in my opinion. If they were going to build a gym, I believe it'd have to be double the size of the one at the Oasis facility. If that were the case, I think it'd be an absolute bonus for the people in Richmond that use the pool and alternately use the gym. Yeah

Okay,

Thank you. And thanks for that insight of the history of the pool as well. Thanks.

Anything else? Yeah, Mr Payne, I'm Randy Father quite well. He was heavily involved in sport, football, and a teacher at Windsor High for a long while. And he asked many of us to leave this pool there on occasions for infractions , me included.

And I'm very interested in the history of the pool because it's a great thing that our town, our community have. And I'll be asking you, if we move ahead with this, to provide us with as much history as you possibly can, because I think it's something that we need to take with us when we move forward with this decision. And the more history you can give us, the easier it'll make for us to decide. So, mate, I thank you. I thank your father and your mother for what they've done for our community. And, mate, they weren't real good footballers at Richmond. Thank you.

Any other questions, councillors? Thanks for speaking.

The second speaker is Mr. Bill Sneddon.

Yep

Bill not here?

You're on.

There will be a bell ring at four minutes, just to let you know you have another further minute to speak.

I'm speaking in

Favour of this item. Just as a preface, I actually now live just down the road from the Oasis Pool, and over the 46 years I have lived there, I have watched it progressively going ahead as Richmond Pool didn't. So I'll get on to a brief thing that I've written. So I'm speaking in favour of this report. This is a long-delayed and desirable upgrade to a useful community facility for both sports and recreation at Richmond. The scope of the proposal, to my thinking, goes a long way towards significant community facility in the hot side of Council's populated area. Having lived near to the pool site for four years, both as a full-time student at Hawkesbury Ag College and then renting a house in Gibson Street with my newly married wife for two years before moving to South Windsor, just down the road from the growing Oasis, I can speak with authority of how stinking hot and windless that area is.

And I will now go on to say, having lived near to the pool site, it's now worse with the increasing heat island effects in the Hawkesbury. Also, it very seldom gets sea breeze until extremely late in the evening, unlike where I am at South Windsor. I'd like to recommend to councillors, or to remind councillors, that around 20 years ago, this very council attempted to sell off the, quote, spare land around the pool. This land is now in the process of being the subject of the community facility being planned. I'd like to remind you that the community opposition back then, the hands off our pool, or HOOP group, put up strong opposition to the sell-off of the land. Whilst I'm not an aquatic sports person myself, I do favour redevelopment of the facility, but I'm not capable of relevant suitability to high-level sports of Olympic standard, etc.

I remind you also that we've had Olympic swimming people of Olympic swimming ability trained at Windsor Pool, just up the road. Pools are in short supply. Swimming learn-to-swim teachers and training are now very parlous. I noticed in the Hawkesbury Gazette that we have failed to be included in a $6 million grant for free swimming lessons, having participated in what I, as a high school and primary school student, called drowning lessons at a swimming pool in Newcastle. I did learn the basics of, finally, of mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, and at one stage I had a daughter at two and a half years old. I fished out of a pool that we were visiting. She was cyano blue, and fortunately my high school lifesaving training, along with a bit of later stuff about CPR, I managed to get her around.

I was the only person of about 50 people at that gathering that knew what to do. If I hadn't have found her, she would have been dead. So the other thing about learn to swim lessons that's important at these pools that have been slipping away steadily is that most animals are instinctively able to swim. There is one really big exception, and there's eight billion of us. It's humans. We do not have the ability to instinctively swim if we are thrown in the water. So we have to have swimming lessons in order to not drown if we go into water by accident or by design and we go over our head. We're also in an aquatic area. We have rivers, we have dams and ponds, etc. And a lot of people in this area are used to the river, just take it as for granted everybody can swim.

On the other hand, many of our migrant community that come here are not from swimming cultures. They're certainly not used to being on beaches and rivers. They're not aware of the dangers in the rivers, etc. So we need enclosed bodies of water quietly where we can teach these people. And I really hope that this pool development goes ahead and is useful for not just sports, but also recreation and training of kids, so that they know how to swim or at least get out of trouble. I managed to get to intermediate star in high school. I looked at the bronze medal guys and I thought I wouldn't come up from the bottom if I tried to take that up, let alone in clothes. So I know my limitations, but I commend at least the intent of redeveloping the pool.

And I'm really pleased that the Hoot Group, with other things going on, didn't have the land sale go ahead. I believe from memory that we were in desperate need for money for the de-rubban centre. So in retrospective, failing to get that money, I'm pleased that we're actually finally doing this 20 years later. Thank you.

Thank you.

Good evening, Mayor and Councillors. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to address you tonight. My name is Fiona Stevens, and I'm a teacher in charge for the school swimming and water safety programs that are run by the New South Wales Department of Education. I have been in charge of the school programs held at Richmond Pool for the past six years. I'm here to express on behalf of the Department of Education our strong support for the IS Western Sydney Infrastructure Grant Program, Richmond Swimming Centre Redevelopment Project, 9549415957, listed as 9.5.1 on the internal agenda for the evening. The Richmond Swimming Centre is not simply an infrastructure project, but an essential investment in community safety, health, and the prevention of drowning.

School swimming and water safety has provided programs for the development of water safety and learn to swim skills since 1954. Approximately 1,300 schools and over 110,000 students across the state access the activities provided by our school swimming and water safety programs annually. Excuse me. The New South Wales Department of Education provides funding for all students to receive instruction. The students meet costs associated with just transport and pool entry. School swimming and water safety programs give primary school students the opportunity to learn vital swimming and safety skills, catering for diverse cultural backgrounds and also socioeconomic circumstances. Water is a defining part of life in the Hawkesbury.

You are surrounded by rivers, creeks, dams and backyard pools. While these waterways are a part of our lifestyle and our identity, they also present real and ongoing risks. In Australia, drowning remains one of the leading causes of accidental death, particularly among children. Regional communities face additional challenges, including limited access to year-round aquatic education, which is the problem is selected faces with the Richmond Swimming Centre. A modern accessible swimming facility is one of the most effective drowning prevention tools a community can have. I believe this council is already ahead of the game in providing a drowning prevention workshop for Hawkesbury community in October 2023.

This initiative, supported by Royal Life Saving, who the Department of Education works closely with, focused on reducing local drowning incidents by engaging stakeholders in water safety strategies as a part of the broader inland community safety program, which was supported by the Australian Government. The Hawkesbury Electorate supports 27 public schools within the age bracket of five to 12 years. Currently, myself and my team only provide lessons for 13 of those 27 schools. In my statistics from Term 4 last year, we supplied swimming and water safety programs to 691 students. Unfortunately, due to the pool not having heating or no access to an indoor pool to retreat to in adverse weather, I am severely limited to the weeks of participation held at the pool.

Currently, we spend six weeks at the end of Term 4, as the pool is too cold for our target. Age bracket of eight years old. We also provide lessons for students with additional learning needs and support, and these students cannot tolerate cold temperatures with their various medical conditions. Swimming lessons are a luxury—sorry, are not a luxury; they are a life skill. Research shows that children who participate in structured swimming and water safety lessons are significantly less likely to drown. Participation depends on access. Facilities must be safe, welcoming, which I'd like to point out we always have at Richmond, inclusive, operational all year round. When pools are outdated, difficult to access, or unable to meet growing demand, participation and risk increases.

Redevelopment of Richmond Pool would allow the Hawkesbury to deliver contemporary water safety education aligned with national drowning prevention strategies. Heated indoor pools extend our learn-to-swim programs beyond seasonal limitations. The Hawkesbury is growing. With growth comes responsibility, responsibility to provide infrastructure that keeps pace with your community's needs and protects the residents. Redeveloping is not simply about upgrading the pool; it's building a safer generation. Tonight, I urge the council to view this redevelopment through the lens of community safety and long-term impact on your region. Every swimming lesson developed, every child gains confidence and represents a life potentially saved.

This redevelopment is an investment in safety, inclusion, health, and resilience of the Hawkesbury community as a part of your community strategic plan and guiding principles of commitment to accessibility, sustainability, and community. Thank you very much for your time and your commitment to water safety education and drowning prevention in the Hawkesbury region. Thank you.

Any ? Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Thank you, Fiona. You said that only 13 of the 27 public schools have swimming lessons. That's correct. Do they go to other pools, or

Do they just not

Have anything?

No, they do not. Due to the limited season that I have at Richmond Pool, I cannot fit everybody in. A lot of schools choose not to come because it is too cold. Obviously, another huge factor we're facing at the moment are bus costs in the region. That's something that we are trying to address all the time. But it's basically space. With all our swimming programs that we run across all pools across New South Wales, we are in a historical agreement with the New South Wales Premier's Office for lane space at every pool that we swim at. So basically it comes down to, like, our kids are tiny, so they get cold very, very quickly. A standard lesson is 45 minutes over a 10-day period. We also can run a five-day one-half-hour period, of which at Richmond, our children do not last the one-and-a-half-hour period.

So they're not getting the full extent of our experience and knowledge. Thank you for that. That's okay. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks, Mr Mayor. Thank you, addressing Council. Thank you. Do you supervise the programs at Windsor as well, the Oasis Centre, or is it just strictly to Richmond?

We do not have an agreement with Oasis. Currently, they do not want to, basically, drop—to be honest, brutally honest—they will not drop their prices for our entry for students per day. So they want to charge us approximately $7.50 per student per day. We're paying approximately $3.50 at Richmond Pool. They also do not want to give us the lane space.

Thank you. Yeah

Thank you very much. You probably speak to a lot of people in the swimming fraternity. What is their thoughts on it? Because this is going to be a hell of an expense for council, for everyone in the community. Correct. And we expect to get some pushback. Is there, can you see any pushback from anywhere, or what's your thoughts on this?

Pushback as in not to go ahead with

The— Not to go ahead with it. We could bulldoze it into a heap and put a historical marker up and say the pool was here. Or do we move forward from there? What are people's thoughts on it?

Everyone that I've spoken to wants to go ahead with the project. It will increase participation tenfold. If I can offer lessons outside of term four, if I can, with your projected indoor facility, if I can get lanes available in that indoor facility, I can do lessons all year round. We can cover every child in this electorate.

So you feel it to be very much economical to do it this way?

Yes, it is. In regards to, just to give you a heads up, my 691 students that attended in six weeks brought in an income for the swimming pool of approximately $16,800 for that six weeks. I see, obviously, I understand that it is a huge layout and I understand the shortfall that you have to cover that didn't come in the grant. But I think it is a deteriorating pool, and that's nothing to say against Steve Cooney and his team at the pool with their maintenance and everything like that. It's just an old pool. It's going to maybe, perhaps, I know I'm not in the pool maintenance side of things, so I can't— Quantify how much it would cost, but I would presume that as the pool gets older and older and older, your maintenance costs will get higher and higher and higher.

And I understand maybe they don't correlate with the outlay that you have to provide now. But I think in the long run, you are not the only pool at the moment that is undergoing a redevelopment structure. Mount Druitt Pool has already closed. It closed the day after Australia Day for their redevelopment. Blacktown Pool is closing in August for their redevelopment. So I understand that Richmond Pool is older than the Blacktown Pool. Just off the top of my head, please don't ask me the dates because I'm not sure. So yes, I would, I strongly recommend going ahead with the project. I think that it will honestly outweigh any concerns that you have. I think with your year-round participation that you'll have going over three pools, particularly the heated pool.

I have so many students with additional learning needs and support that come from support units and also SSP schools, which are schools for specific purposes. These are students with a variety of medical conditions and concerns. They cannot work in the water. They don't even come at the moment. But if you go ahead with your projected plan with the indoor pool that is going to be heated to 32 degrees, that is absolutely perfect for those students.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for coming and outlining that so clearly. I hope so. Does the size of the pool have—we heard from Mr Payne about the need for the eight lanes rather than six. Yes. Is that a consideration for you?

We would prefer an eight-lane pool, definitely. From our side of things, quite often when we're in Term 4 at Richmond Pool, we are quite often sharing the space with either the Australian Christian College or Kyabus Christian College. We're all there at the same time. So if you can imagine, I'm taking up two lanes of the 50-metre pool; they're taking up two 50-metre pool. It just reiterates what Steve said, is that there's not much space for public swimming. If you did expand to eight lanes, once again you would have perhaps a greater income coming from school carnivals. At the moment, your six lanes don't meet requirements for zone carnivals or things like that. So the larger the lane amount of space, the more carnivals you will attract and things like that, which is obviously more money. So

It's a double-edged thought because of the pool

For community. True, true, true. From a teaching point of view, I love the plan, especially you've brought it in line with Royal Life Saving requirements. So the two metre deep in the deep end is now the new norm for teaching diving. So if you do have the swim clubs and things like that, you know, it is preferable to have the two metre deep. What is also essential for our school swimming program is the 15 metres at the shallow end of the pool staying at a consistent one metre. That means that although your plan will take away the small training pool, which we also love, but having that guaranteed one metre for 15 metres of the shallow pool is perfect, absolutely perfect for us.

Thanks very much. Any? Thank you. Thanks, Fiona.

That's it. Thank you very much.

Councillors, I just remind you that with our speakers, it's legislation that we've got two minutes for questions.

Two minutes. And when you've got someone barracking for you as good as that, I thought, stop my watch. But just be mindful, councillors, if we do it for one, we've got to do it for all, and we're not going to do that. We've got things we've got to do. Councillors, that's the end of the public forum, so I shall close that session there. There will be a couple of minute break. Our staff need to set up for the meeting through the IT system and electrical system, so there will be a couple of minutes. Thank you, councillors.