14 August - Ordinary

I'll just hand over to Mr Conroy for the preliminaries.

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'd like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land, the Dharug people, their elders past and present. Members of the public attending the meeting are advised that in the event of an emergency, you will be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit, following the guidance of our warden. I would also like to advise members of the public that in accordance with clause 6.3.1 of the Code of Meeting Practice, meetings of Council are recorded. In the terms of the Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, this may involve the recording of personal information provided at the time of the meeting. The recordings are made to assist staff in compiling the minutes of the meeting and to enable the podcasting of Council meetings.

The provision of any information that is recorded is voluntary. If any person does not wish to be recorded, they should not address or request to address the meeting. The recordings may be made available to other persons where such access is in accordance with the relevant regulations, and the recordings are stored on Council's record management system. For the benefit of those persons who will be addressing the Council tonight, it is expected that you will refrain from making any insult, allegation or personal reflection against any person present or not at this meeting. This request relates to both your address to Council and any answers given in response to questions from Councillors. Finally, it is also requested that if any person in the Council Chambers has a mobile phone, That they either turn it off or turn it to silent.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Conroy. I'd like to welcome here tonight the students and parents for the Sister City Association, and we're going to be giving out their certificates tonight. We have students from Temple City and from Kiyotamba in Japan, Temple City in the USA and Kiyotamba in Japan, and we have our own students who will be going on exchange shortly. So we're going to have some speeches from the students, and unfortunately Tina, who is the president, is not here tonight, but her speech will be read out. And the other night we had a wonderful event at the gallery where the Japanese Consul General came and to mix with the children and to celebrate 30 years of Sister City, which is a wonderful achievement for the committee to have run that program for 30 years.

And I'd like to just give a special mention to the wonderful performance we had on the Japanese drum, and that was played by Jeffrey and Jude, who are actually from Temple City in the USA, and they learned that drum piece and they played it magnificently. So that was quite an achievement, and it shows how broad the experiences and the opportunities are that the students get when they do these sorts of cultural exchanges. So it was wonderful to hear that and welcome to you all, and we'll move on with the proceedings now. I have the certificates here, but we'll have the speeches, I think, first. Thank you.

Madam Mayor and Councillors, my name is Bridget Smithers. I'm secretary of the Hawkesbury Sister City Association, and tonight I'm standing in for our president, Tina Talic, because she is unwell. Tina has asked me to present her speech on her behalf.

Mayor of Hawkesbury, Councillor Mary Lyons-Buckett and Councillors of the City of Hawkesbury, thank you for extending this opportunity to introduce all the students participating in the 2018 exchange program between Hawkesbury, Temple City in America and Kiyotamba in Japan. Last night we held a meeting of the Hawkesbury Sister City Association and on behalf of the Management Committee I pass on thanks and appreciation for the reception held by Hawkesbury Council last Friday evening to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the formal ties we have with Kiyotamba in Japan. It was a wonderful opportunity to both celebrate and remember the 30-year bond we have with Kiyotamba and highlight the special times and opportunities we have shared and recognise the many friendships that now exist between people in our two regions.

I would also like to mention that we have had a similar fruitful and long-term relationship with Temple City in California since 1984, although our annual student exchange program has only run with America since the year 2000. I'm excited to announce that in 2019 the Temple City High School Brightside Singers will be visiting Hawkesbury for a couple of nights and we are looking at arranging an opportunity for them to perform during their visit. So it is now my pleasure to introduce. The students, I will just change that, sorry, will switch, where I will now introduce Jasmine, who will speak on behalf of the delegation of the Hawkesbury students going to Temple City. Jasmine Kirkby.

On behalf of the Australian students going to Temple City, I'd like to thank the Hawkesbury City Council, Mayor Mary Lyons-Buckett, the committee, in particular Tina Bridgett and Caroline, for their commitment to the exchange program that gives us so many opportunities and opens our world to another country and culture and provides us with lifelong friends. We would like to thank you for all the time and effort put into planning the excursions and activities. We appreciate the costs involved and thank you for the money that we have received to help us get there. We look forward to travelling to Temple City next month and hope that all the Temple City students have enjoyed their time in Australia. Thank you all once again.

I would now like Kristen Fang, who will speak on behalf of the Temple City delegation.

Hi, my name is Kristen Fang and I, along with the other five, am from Temple City, California in America. Vacationing to another country is an amazing experience, obviously, but living in a local's house and being there really allows one to be a part of the culture, and it's an experience that's completely different and completely unique, and just one of those opportunities that not many get to have. I've actually been to Australia once before, and prior to this exchange, and it was a beautiful visit, but it's incomparable to the trip we've had so far. The amount of people we've befriended and the amount of culture we've learned about, it's a crazy thing, and it's definitely not what I experienced on my trip to Sydney two years ago.

Personally, I didn't expect to see such a difference between here and my home, both being first world countries. And if I were to travel here on vacation as a tourist, like I have, and especially being in the city in Sydney, that expectation would probably have been fulfilled even further. But living in the Hawkesbury and going to school with my host sibling, seeing the more rural areas, it's a completely different side to Australia that I wouldn't have known about otherwise and not many people get to see. It's a completely different and amazing experience. I've discovered so much about Australian culture, more so the smaller details. Food, for example, like Milo, especially with ice cream.

I love it. Language differences. There are so many slang terms that I have never heard of, and some that I will definitely take back home. Going to school, there's definitely differences in our school systems. Yeah, definitely a lot of differences and similarities, of course. It's really, really interesting to see. But yes, I'm sure I can speak for the other five when I say we've learned heaps about Australian culture, and it's really amazing to see all those similarities and differences. Overall, I think the best part of this trip is the people we've met and the friendships we've made. We've met so many people, and everyone's been so incredibly kind and so lovely to us. And it's really great.

We're making friendships that will last a long time, and we're creating international connections, and I think that's the most important part. Okay, this trip has been such a learning experience, and it's provided so much for the six of us. What the Sister Cities doing and what the program is about is truly amazing, and we're incredibly, incredibly grateful to be part of it. So with that said, I would like to thank the City Council. Thank you for your support towards the program. It means so much. You've helped to provide this experience for the six of us, one that will last a lifetime and one that we will cherish forever. So thank you. I have a small gift of gratitude from the Temple City Sister City.

Thank you so much.

Atsumi Yamauchi will say some words for the Kiamba delegation.

Good evening, everyone. We experienced a lot of things in this one month living in Australia. It was fun and it was a pleasant discovery, and it was a very difficult thing. I would like to talk about two things. The first thing is fun. It was sightseeing in various places such as Sydney, Canberra. In Sydney, we went to a lot of sightseeing spots such as Opera House and Bondi Beach. Opera House and the city of Sydney were places I have seen many times on TV, so I was able to go to the actual place. It was very beautiful when I went to Bondi Beach. There are similar places in Japan. However, this beach and the water was very beautiful with a difficult beauty. In Canberra, I went to a lot of places such as Parliament House.

In Parliament House, I saw the conference room. In Questacon, we were able to experience the natural phenomena, technology and science with our own hands. I also went to the Australia War Memorial and learned about how Australia experienced war. Canberra had a difficult week and feel, and is different in appearance from Sydney. The second experience I will talk about is learning to speak and understand English. When I wanted the most in this month was to experience and learn English. It was isolating at times without being able to understand the story. Also, if I were talking and not writing a letter, I was not able to tell of my feelings and intentions or understand others. In addition, it was very hard to learn the local lifestyle, and there were various time when it was hard work.

However, if you try to talk without saying that you cannot speak English, you can make new friends. In the beginning, it's very hard to learn and understand English. Soon, it was actually possible to experience the lifestyle and feel the different culture. I was able to have a lot of new discovery and growth. We think that we could not do this experience. One month living in Australia. The first time I have lived here for a month. When it first started, I didn't know English. Sometimes I could not get used to local life, and sometimes I wanted to go back to Japan. However, it became fun to be a part of this life and I was enjoying it more. Much more than I thought I could enjoy it. It was a short time for one month, but we were able to come to Australia.

I have been enjoying these days and having fun. Thank you for supporting so many people with sister cities, Hawkesbury Sister Association and the Hawkes and Host families. Thank you so much. Hawkesbury Council for this time and this precious opportunity. Thank you so much.

This exchange program is in its last week. Thank you for listening.

Benjamin Webb will now speak on behalf of our Hawkesbury student delegation going to Kiatamba.

Good evening, Mayor Mary Lyons-Buckett, Councillors, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Ben Webb. On behalf of the Hawkesbury delegation 2018, we would like to thank Hawkesbury City Council for their continued support for the Sister City Association and student exchange program. Thank you for your kind gift of five thousand— not five thousand— five hundred.

Cash gift to each of the delegates. We are so very grateful for the opportunity to represent the Hawkesbury in Kiatamba and Temple City. We are excited to be part of our sister cities, the experience sure to be life-changing. Already, we are being crafted into each other's lives and countries through having our sister cities' students currently in our homes. The bonds of friendship beginning, lots of fun, talking and laughter. Noriko's dinner at her house, a memory not soon forgotten. Not only is this friendship impacting our lives, but we believe it will impact our communities and countries for the better. Thank you to the Hawkesbury Sister City President Tina Talak, who unfortunately couldn't be here, and each member of the association. Your dedication and commitment to the program is passionate and infectious, and we want to do you all proud. Thank you.

So it is now my pleasure to introduce the 2018 student exchange delegations within the Hawkesbury Kiama program and the 18th student exchange delegations within the Hawkesbury Temple City program. Firstly, the Hawkesbury students going to Temple City: Isabel Egan of Ebenezer Colo High School, Jasmine Kirkby of North Richmond Colo Christian College,

Madeline Michalutti of Kurmond Colo High School, Kate O'Donohue of Yarramundi, Bede Polding College. Teal Simmons of Ebenezer, Arndell Anglican College. Taylor Turner of Kurmond Colo High School. Next, our inbound delegation from Temple City: Kristen Fang, hosted by the Turner family of Kurmond. Stefania Hartojo, hosted by the O'Donohue family of Yarramundi. Jude Hodgson, hosted by the Egan family of Ebenezer. Megan Ling, hosted by the Kirkby of North Richmond. Kennedy Lum, hosted by the Mitchelluti family of Kurmond. Jeffrey Van, hosted by the Simmons family of Ebenezer.

I will now introduce our visitors from Kiatamba. Run Nakasawa, hosted by the Le Breton family of Kurmond.

Naharo Nishimura, hosted by the Holman family of Richmond. Mika Tanaka, hosted by the Hames family of South Windsor.

Yuzuki Yunishi, hosted by the Webb family of Kurmond. Magumi Wada, also hosted by the Webb family. And Natsumi Yamauchi, hosted by the Bagley family of Berrinbing. And finally, our Hawkesbury student delegation going to Kiatamba. Skye Bagley of Berrinbing Colo High School, Alana Hames of South Windsor Richmond High School, Matthew Holman of Richmond, Arndell Anglican College, Georgia LeBreton of Kermond Colo High School, and Benjamin Webb of Kermond Arndell Anglican College. Thank you for your time, Madam Mayor. I understand you have, oh, certificates that you've just presented

Thank you, Bridget and the Sister City Committee, and I hope and I'm pleased to hear that you've all had a wonderful time for the visiting students, and we wish our students who are going on exchange a happy and safe time. And we'd love to hear about it when you come back. Thank you. Bye.

I'll just take, we'll just do apologies and we have an apology from Councillor Conolly.

Yes, he sends his apologies

Can I have someone move, moved Councillor Rasmussen, seconded Councillor Zamprogno. All those in favour? The motion is carried. Declarations of interest. Councillor Reynolds.

194, Madam Mayor, pecuniary interest.

194. Any other declarations of interest? No. We just have someone to confirm the minutes from last meeting. Moved Councillor Rasmussen, seconded Councillor Wheeler. All those in favour? Okay Councillor Wheeler. I'd like to move an urgency motion, Madam Mayor.

I've sent it to the staff.

Is it very long? I'm just going to say, if it's not very long, you could start reading it out. It's a little bit long. So we know what it is.

I can, there we go.

Would you like me to read it out? Can you see it? Yes, maybe just read it out, and I'll rule on the urgency and then call for you if you've got a seconder.

That Council strongly condemns the commencement of works to remove the colonial-era box drains from Thompson Square. Two, notes that the drains form an integral part of the complex land drainage system in Thompson Square, are the earliest surviving example of public works ordered by Governor Macquarie in 1814, and that there have been repeated calls from heritage experts to conserve, preserve and display the drain system. Three , notes that the brick drain heritage mitigation and options report calls for stakeholder engagement prior to the final decision to remove a section of the drains, and that this has not taken place. And four, requests the RMS to clearly identify what will become of the bricks removed from their original site, how they will be conserved, what future interpretations are planned for this priceless part of Hawkesbury's heritage, and what engagement with stakeholders has been carried out prior to destruction of the drains.

And can you just give a brief outline of why it is urgent?

Certainly. The work to remove the drains begins this Thursday. We've been notified. I've been contacted by heritage experts over the weekend to highlight the lack of stakeholder engagement.

Given the timing, I'll move that the urgency motion can proceed, seconded by Councillor Rasmussen. Councillor Wheeler. Thanks, Madam Mayor.

The drainage mitigation report clearly states that a section of the box drain, and this is a quote from the document from page 3, a section of the box culvert would be carefully recorded by the archaeologists and removed by conservators for conservation and secure storage prior to future reinstatement in an indoor context, e.g. Windsor Museum or a Council-nominated location. This option should be discussed with key stakeholders, and here's the rub, prior to making a final decision to remove a section of culvert. So who are these stakeholders, and why is Council and its own Heritage Advisory Committee not amongst them? The report goes on on page 4, in the event that no party is interested in accepting a section of box culvert, a small sample of bricks, 20 to 30, should be retained with the archaeological collection and remainder reburied or discarded.

Discarded. Precious rare colonial heritage discarded. This is shameful. This is the project that Liberal councillors and the Liberal government continue to defend. Professor Ian Jack has stated, the high significance of the whole drainage system in the context of Governor Macquarie's public works program is blatantly understated by the RMS. If you read the rest of the document, it goes on to say under option 2 for protection that the barrel drains, highly significant, extremely rare, will be protected with Styrofoam. Styrofoam. Should we send our old pillows as well? Is this the best they can do?

The box drains, the majority of them will be removed. The report makes it clear that they're not even sure how much of the box drain exists, nor is it possible to ensure that the barrel drains themselves will survive. This project is a tragedy, and it's happening on our watch. We need to condemn it in the strongest possible terms. But we also need to make sure that the idea that no party is interested in accepting this precious, this precious piece of colonial era infrastructure, that the fact that they haven't asked us and we therefore haven't said what we want isn't taken to mean that we don't want it. This shouldn't be happening, but the idea that it could slip through and be discarded is outrageous.

And this council needs to be firmly on record condemning this action, and we need to ask that our views and the views of our community are taken into consideration before this is lost forever.

Thank you, Councillor Wheeler. I'll put Councillor Wheeler's motion to the vote. All those in favour?

Against? The motion is carried. We'll now move on to our first...

Item of public address, and that's item 194. We have three speakers. Madam Mayor. Oh, sorry, sorry, Councillor Reynolds, can you please read your conflict? Yeah, I just

Live within the study area.

Thank you. Okay. Thank you.

Our first speaker is Mr Harry Terry

Mayor, councillors, council staff, gallery. Early this year I treated my wife to breakfast at Flower Power in Glenhaven. As usual, it was having a sale. I was in the market for a less usual citrus. I bought a lime tree that looked particularly vigorous, had an eye-catching label and a descriptive name. It was called a sublime. How could I go wrong? When I was home, I used Google to see what I had purchased. I suspect you think I'm about to tell you that it was a lemon. No, it was in fact a lime, and the name said it all. It was not a sublime lime, but a sub lime . It is not totally useless, but is third rate as a lime. It reminds me very much of the Strategic Conservation Management Plan prepared for the RMS and indeed the Windsor Bridge Replacement Project.

I attended a wedding in Port Macquarie recently and visited the Glasshouse. That's a theatre complex. A brick drain and foundations were found while excavating for that building. Those heritage items, although nowhere near as old nor as significant as the ones in Thompson Square, have been conserved , preserved and showcased. Port Macquarie is proud of its heritage. Now , one of the conditions of approval for the Windsor Bridge replacement project was for the RMS to preserve and enhance the heritage of Thompson Square. It had a choice as to the design of the bridge to achieve that condition. It knew about the remnants of the Greenway design wharf last century. It could have designed the placement of the piers to avoid those heritage remains, but chose to put the set of piers exactly where those wharf remains are.

It also knew of the existence of the barrel drain complex again last century. It could have designed a bridge that had more of a bridge and less of the abutments. So the barrel drain complex could be preserved, conserved and showcased beneath the bridge for all to see. It chose not to do so, but preferred to bury those heritage icons. Was this sheer incompetence, or was it deliberate? This motion is asking councillors to approve the CMP being placed on public exhibition. The CMP is one that should have been prepared many, many, many years ago. Windsor being the third oldest settlement in the colony and Thompson Square being the oldest civic square deserved no less. And it deserves no less than a first-rate CMP.

It is a production of such documents that have the aim to influence the future of Windsor, particularly Thompson Square. In a presentation on March the 30th this year, I quoted, Focus on what your town has that is truly unique and different. Focus on the qualities that separate your town from anywhere else in the state. That's your hook. That's your marketing angle. That is what visitors are looking for. As we become more homogeneous, people are looking for those special, one-of-a-kind places. If we are truly committed to increasing tourism in Windsor, if we are truly committed to rejuvenating Windsor, then we cannot drop the ball of this opportunity. Council needs to do all it can to preserve, conserve, and display this resource, its heritage.

Different people may have quite diverse visions to the future of Windsor. One vision is to preserve, conserve, and showcase our heritage. Another vision is best illustrated by Macquarie Street today and the nearly completed unit complex opposite the Uniting Church. If you're one of those who have that vision, then please vote against this motion. If , however, you support the promotion of heritage tourism, then the choice is simple. I urge you to vote what you believe in. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Terry. Are you happy to take questions? Yes , indeed. Are there any questions for Mr. Terry? No questions. Thank you. Thank you. Our second speaker is Professor Ian Jack.

Madam Mayor and Councillors, I am pleased that the draft Conservation Management Plan for Thompson Square is now before you, with a recommendation that it be put on view for community comment before Council considers its adoption. The purpose of a Conservation Management Plan is first of all to explain the historical context of a place, to describe its present condition, and to assess the levels of significance of the place under seven approved heritage criteria . The CMP then critically goes on to recommend policies which will ensure that the values of the place are maintained. The plan will discuss how these policies can be implemented while allowing for a whole variety of sympathetic changes of use or changes in detail.

The plan advises on the maintenance and the management of the place for the future, and should supply relevant policies, both general and specific. It is a major planning tool. In short, when it is well done, a CMP is an essential practical tool for decision making. As you are aware, the Council has already used to good effect earlier CMPs such as those for Richmond Park or Wilberforce Cemetery. Now Council has a duty to ensure that it is getting value for money. I have no doubt at all that you are getting great value for money in this CMP, and I say this from hands-on experience. I have seen and appraised a great many CMPs over the last 20 years. When I was a member of a heritage council, I was deputy chair of the Conservation Management Plan Committee, and later chair of the State Heritage Register Committee.

And over five years in the company of some of the best heritage specialists in the state, I had the responsibility of approving or recommending for approval a great many CMPs, and sometimes the privilege of refusing to adopt. I have also been on the other side of the counter. As a consultant, I have contributed the historical analysis to a wide variety of CMPs. So I read the work on Thompson Square by Lucas Stapleton Johnson with a lot of experience in reading this sort of report, and I have no hesitation in recommending it to Council as one of the very best CMPs I have had the pleasure of reading. I have nothing but praise for the quality of the history from original sources, for the mapping both historic and current, for the analysis of the relevant built environment, and most of all for the 221 policies, which are so lucidly and economically presented.

This is a document from which the community can benefit, and it is a sound foundation for decisions on the future of the historic core of Windsor. Questions have been raised about whether this CMP is necessary so soon after RMS produced their Strategic Conservation Management Plan. The answer is a resounding yes. I was historical sub-consultant with RMS for the RMS plan, so I am disabled from commenting about the substance of the report, but I find no difficulty at all in saying that the RMS document had a much more restricted brief relating to the proposed area. It covers a different area from a more constricted area. The strategic CMP is a restricted area around Thompson Square itself and excludes most of the built heritage.

In particular, it excludes the famous buildings which already form part of Thompson Square conservation area. Its policies do not inform Council in the long run, whereas the 221 policies in the Lucas Stapleton Johnson CMP offer a wealth of specific guidance. This CMP offers you something new, something different, something very valuable. So I hope, therefore, that Council will proceed immediately to put this fine CMP on public exhibition and proceed to endorse it as soon as possible. Thank you.

Thank you, Professor Jacka. Are you happy to take any questions? Yes, certainly. Councillor Rasmussen.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Professor Jacka, thank you very much for that lucid and very useful and insightful discussion of the CMP. I appreciate it very much. I want to ask you this question: Is there anything to be feared from the CMP?

I don't think there should be anything to be feared from a CMP unless Council fears honest and well-informed opinion. This is a very well-informed, very well thought out, and very skilfully argued report. Council can discuss issues in it, but I don't think it should be frightened of it. It should not be frightened of honest opinion based on such good evidence.

Can I just follow that up? Should anybody else, apart from Council, fear it? People who own property in the area? I don't

Think so. It gives very good guidance about heritage implications of what is already a conservation area approved by the Heritage Council. There is nothing new in its adjudication of the importance of the buildings around Thompson Square. There may be some difference of opinion about exact details of some implementation of policies, but these things are not matters for fright. They are matters for consideration and discussion.

Thank you. Councillor Ross. Good

Evening, Professor . I would take it that you might have some thoughts on the matter of urgency that was moved a little earlier this evening , and its implications in terms of the CMP about which you've just been speaking. Would you care to elaborate on those, if that is not being too outspoken, sir

As you know, I am inhibited from talking about things remarked on in the strategic CMP of RMS. But the whole excavation of the drainage system in Thompson Square emerged after that report was finished, after I had done my work, and I feel free to comment on that. I agree wholeheartedly with what Councillor Wheeler has said about the extraordinary shortness of notice which has been given, and the extraordinary lack of community consultation with relevant stakeholders.

RMS

Has never really made a public statement accepting the extraordinary value, heritage value, historical value of what has been discovered in Thompson Square. We simply did not know what the works done by Howe and McGrath were in Thompson Square until these excavations were done, and we were surprised to find that the barrel drain was so well preserved. I wasn't the least bit surprised that much of it was there, but it was better preserved. What we didn't know was there was a sump going up on an upper level of drainage, all part of a shifting of the levels. This was a very sophisticated, highly thought out public works effort, and a very expensive one, in the 1810s. It's something which has given us an entirely new glimpse of what Macquarie's concept of the Macquarie Towns was.

This was a big enterprise, and it is being endangered, critically endangered, by this extraordinary rapidity of a decision taken to remove part of that. There has been no mention at all, and Councillor Wheeler didn't mention it either, but the sumps, the vertical sumps going connecting the upper drains which are being removed to the barrel drain which is not being removed, there has been no word about what happens to them, and they are critically important because there is nothing like them in Australia, and they are an extraordinary part of the drainage system conceived so early.

Thank you, Professor Jack. Thank you very much. Thank you. Time, Councillor Ross. Our third speaker is Graham Eds

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Councillors, staff, ladies and gentlemen. Look , thank you for the opportunity for addressing. Here tonight on this most important issue for this Council. Mayor, I registered to speak for the recommendation, but in reflection, I wish to speak rather both for and against the recommendation, and so let me explain. I commend Council, firstly, for taking the initiative in 2015 to have a CMP prepared for the Thompson Square Conservation Precinct. Yes, at considerable cost, $102,000, but I believe it's worth every cent. I think the document speaks for itself, and I think the elaboration that Professor Jack has actually given you just a couple of minutes ago actually is proof of that.

I too am a practitioner, as many of you would know, and prepare many of these conservation management plans on behalf of clients, both private, state, and for federal governments. And I believe that this conservation management plan is the best I've ever seen as well. So I think there's two endorsements to Council tonight in regard to the value of this particular document from, I guess, two reasonably highly respected conservation practitioners.

So Lucas Stapleton and Johnson, in my opinion, have provided the most valuable resource document for the whole of the Thompson Square area, not just like the RMS strategic CMP for the Windsor Bridge replacement project, which I think Professor Jack indicated to you, only looked at part of the area that we know of as Thompson Square and what's been protected as the conservation precinct.

I won't go into the detail of what is in the conservation plan. Professor Jack has done that, and you've obviously read it for yourselves. But it does include lots of bits, the bits and pieces that are important, those little bits that make up Thompson Square as being so special. Not just the buildings, not just the central area, but all those other bits, the curbing, the guttering, the lights, and the lay of the land, and how it should be actually looked at in the future. So it is a valuable resource for Council.

I note that the recommendation in the business paper calls for Council to place the CMP on public exhibition, and I guess this is where I propose to speak against the recommendation. I believe this report has actually been fully peer reviewed. It's been to Council's Heritage Advisory Committee, and the membership of that Heritage Advisory Committee have both heritage professionals, other professionals, and also the local community in their own right. So they're the interested body that comes to the Hawkesbury and actually looks at the Hawkesbury's heritage and are interested in its longevity and providing some, I guess, some important conversation to Council in regard to recommendations and the like.

So I believe, Council, that in putting this particular CMP out for further review, I doubt whether you're going to actually get very much from the community other than, yes, it's a big document, and you may get some positives, you may get a few negatives, but I don't think you're going to get the resource that this document provides that is not already there. And I think that has been illuminated again by Professor Jack as well.

Madam Mayor, so I guess it's in my professional opinion that there would be no added value in going out to the public, which can only cause unnecessary delay and further cost to Council in Council staff's time.

Madam Mayor, in closing, can I be so bold to suggest that Recommendation 1 in the business paper be deleted and replaced by a recommendation that Council actually endorse and adopt the final draft CMP for Thompson Square as presented by the consultants. And that Recommendation 2 remain as presented in the business paper and Recommendation 3 be deleted. Thank you, Madam Mayor.

Thank you, Mr Eds. Are you happy to take questions?

Yes, most certainly.

Councillor Ross.

Good evening, Mr Eds. In light of the suggestions you made just a moment ago, I take it from that that we are to interpret that the, I believe, two-week period which was given the Heritage Advisory Committee to review the report , the draft report, have been considered adequate and all that the Heritage Committee wished to do have been accomplished in your eye?

Councillor Ross, I believe the committee has had a much larger time than that in which to actually review this particular document. And certainly I didn't get the opportunity of reviewing it until I came back from leave, and that was some weeks ago now. But I believe the committee prior that I actually missed— In May, I think it was. I think the draft was actually presented at that time, unless I'm mistaken, and the acting director for city planning might be able to provide some further illumination on that. But I believe it's been a lot longer time.

Thank you. Councillor Garrow. Mr,

As you spoke about that you've consulted several times and CMPs for the state and federal government. In your professional opinion, do you believe that the RMS should have completed the CMP prior to the RMS at their expense and not left it to Council? Look

Conservation management plans should be actually prepared prior to development, prior to proposals being put, and that's the whole idea of conservation management plans, is that they're to actually guide decision-making. But in this particular case, the RMS actually made the decision, then they prepared what I believe is a conservation management plan to actually uphold their decision and back it up, not the other way around. So we're actually, the RMS, I believe, has put the cart before the horse.

Thank you, Mr. Eds. Thank you.

That was Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. I want to move an alternate recommendation that I hope will go some way to satisfy Mr.

Eds. Is it

Available? There we

Go. Would you like to just point out, first of all, have you got a seconder

Councillor Ross, if you could just point out the changes.

So it calls for Council to adopt in principle the Conservation Management Plan as it stands and to get on with the process of arranging meetings with relevant state government agencies and organisations to determine how it can be applied now and into the future, because that's extremely timely given where we stand with the Windsor Bridge replacement project, and simultaneously for the Conservation Management Plan to be placed on public exhibition. So the public will still be able to read and comment on the document, but it won't hold up the adoption and the engagement. Should we receive any further submissions, they can come back to Council in a report under item four , and Council can then finally endorse any amendments to the Conservation Management Plan.

So this seeks to have a document that we can begin working with. We need to be engaging with the RMS. We've already had to decide on or to have input into, the landscape design plan for the Windsor Bridge replacement project. It would have been fabulous to have a document like this to feed into that. Instead, we've been left making decisions on, or having input—we weren't able to make any decisions—to have input into things like lighting and landscaping and use of materials without the benefit of a Conservation Management Plan, and with a strategic conservation management plan that was sorely lacking in any direction on those matters. We've also got a revitalisation project planned for Windsor that we really want to get moving on, and this document can inform much of what we do there.

As we heard from Professor Jack, this is a really detailed and useful document which can extend to Windsor and assist with the management of Windsor as a whole. It's an essential practical tool for decision making, was what he stated, and gives us a sound foundation for managing the historic core for Windsor. We need this document now. We don't need to wait for another month for it to go on exhibition. And then for a report to come back to us and another cycle of council meetings before we can start using this document, and certainly before we can start engaging with relevant state government agencies. I just want to bring up a couple of the things that are raised in the CMP. It's one of the things that the CMP does is clearly define the area of Thompson Square, not just the bit of grass in the middle which people believe to be the square, but also the buildings that surround it as it should.

These are a really essential part, and they need to be documented and protected. And this is a really useful document for the owners of those buildings, most of which are in private hands. Council owns one of them. To have a conservation management plan prepared for a property of state significance that you own that is of this calibre is priceless. The majority of heritage item owners are not able to procure a document of this calibre. The statement of significance, I think, is really

Really important. The only known public space named after an emancipist, exceptional significance as rare surviving evidence of the earliest years of the British colony in Australia, considered to be rare and exceptional, including the 1814 sandstock brick barrel drain and later associated polystyrene. The visual and spatial relationships between the place, the Hawkesbury River and the agricultural lands beyond, combined with the collection of buildings defining the east, west and southern sides of the public square, are evocative of an earlier time and have a strong colonial character that is considered to be unique. If you have ever wondered why people have given up five years of their leisure time sitting in Thompson Square, this document makes it very, very clear why that has happened.

And I'm delighted to have a document that makes the importance of this place and the further management of it so very, very clear.

Councillor Tree. Thank you. I don't think it's appropriate to just say that nobody else can have input, and you can't pick and choose when something goes on public exhibition and when it doesn't. There's a proper process, and that is part of the process. I don't think it's, I mean, God, I can't even begin to imagine the outcry that would have happened had we ever made such a statement in the chamber in previous councils. And I think it's a bit, and whilst the speaker may be correct in saying that no one might have anything further to add, but it's offensive to suggest that nobody might want to. And I just think that this is not proper process. I don't think we should be adopting it even in principle when it hasn't gone through the proper channels .

I'll just get clarification for you on the statutory requirement for that, but it does still include going on public exhibition in point three. I

Understand that, but I can't imagine that it'd be all right to start on commenced works or any sort of proceedings from this point forward without having gone through the proper processes

I understand what you're saying. I think, though, the only thing that would commence would be sending it off to government agencies. I don't think any works would actually commence under it, because the final endorsement is down the bottom. I'll just get Mr Kearns to clarify what the statutory process for public exhibition is on a CMP. Thank you.

Yes, so in terms of CMPs, there's no statutory requirement for formal public notification. So we've put a recommendation there for consultation and engagement with the community in terms of the CMP, but there's no actual formal statutory requirement for public notification.

Is that in relation to just CMPs, or what else is that in relation to, just out of curiosity? Other things?

That's in relation to CMPs, yeah. Yeah, because it's not a formal statutory document in itself, so there's no formal requirement for notification per se.

Councillor Garrod. I would just like to ask Councillor Wheeler if she would possibly add an additional number five, that Council requests the State Government for compensation for the cost of this CMP, a valuable document. That they clearly should have completed prior to the EIS.

Councillor Wheeler. I'm certainly willing to consider it. I think you're probably on a hiding to nothing asking, and they will say that their strategic conservation management plan is enough, which clearly it isn't, and that's why that document has been prepared. I think it is worth noting that the Office of Environment and Heritage funded $10,000 worth of the $100,000 cost of the document. I don't think it's going to get us anywhere, is the short answer, and I think this is Council's money well spent. I don't have a problem with Council paying for this. I think Council should have prepared this document quite some time ago. It's an extremely useful document. Council is largely the managing agent of this site. It's a responsible thing for a Council to have and fund a document for this, and it's fully covered by our budget. So, no

That's a no. Okay

Councillor Ross.

Thank you, Mayor. I seek to, with your indulgence, Mayor, to suggest to the mover of this motion that

Both State and Federal parliamentary members be specifically nominated in the distribution of the report,

And I further seek her... Support in the posting of this, however you might describe it, on the Council website, and to be clearly publicised as such for dissemination into the broader community and outside world. I also seek possible inclusion

That the distribution of these things be conducted

As a matter of urgency. And lastly, I would like to suggest that

Possibly the motion might consider that we seek urgent

Face-to-face meeting with the Minister for Planning, currently holder of that office of the State Parliament Government, to discuss the impending desecration of our most

Significant heritage element within the nation.

And I believe that is a duty which befalls upon us as Council. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor Ross. Just to clarify, you're asking Councillor Wheeler to include those, and would it be the Minister for Planning or the Minister for Local Government and Heritage?

Thank you. Yes, I'd seek Councillor Wheeler's indulgence, please. And as the Minister for Planning was the approving minister, or that office was where the original approval for WBRP Option 1 was, that was the office from which it emanated. So should it be the office with whom we seek ministerial contact face-to-face and representation?

Okay, that's right. I just think they've changed it within the portfolio, but, yeah. Councillor Wheeler, that was firstly to write to the, or to alert the state and federal members and have them given a copy of the Conservation Management Plan, and that the distribution be done immediately of the document, and also to seek a meeting with the Minister for Planning, a face-to-face meeting with the Minister of Planning, and to have the document prominently put on the Council website, which it would be in the area of exhibited documents, and alerted to that anyway. So if you wish to take, add any of those on with your seconder if you consider those. I'm happy with those. Okay

Councillor Vasmason. Yeah,

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Just on the earlier point about exhibition and the requirement to do that, is there any impediment for Council to adopt a report like this prior— To it being exhibited, are there any impediments there at all for us to do that? It may not be a CMP-related one, but there may be a broader power which we are required to meet on that.

Mr Conroy.

I think it would be closely related to the actual wording of the resolution. If Council were to adopt it subject to any additional submissions received, or something like that, so that you're leaving the way open to make further amendments. But if you just adopt it, then you're moving into, if you want to change it, you're moving into territory where it's potentially, you know, a rescission motion or something like that.

So just to clarify the changes that are made there, Councillor Rasmussen, does point 4 answer what you were asking?

Madam Mayor, I don't know that it meets my requirement, but more importantly, it probably doesn't meet the General Manager's requirement in that I think he was looking for something up there. We noted following all these other things, right? I think that's what the General Manager was hinting at. I think you might want to clarify that, but that's my understanding. Well

Point 5, if we could just see point 1 again. So it's adopting in principle the report.

Just don't want to get caught on the hooks on this one, right?

Yeah, I understand.

So I think, you know, Council's got the option of adopting it in principle or terming it something along the lines of adopting it subject to the receipt of— Further submissions.

Councillor Wheeler

And then you're leaving that way open to make any refinements or adjustments.

Yes.

Councillor Wheeler. I think an in-principle adoption still does that. So point four allows for public exhibition and a report pending , and then the final endorsement is still pending public exhibition. In principle doesn't mean that it's locked in. It still remains a draft document, but Council puts its in-principle support behind the document, behind the statement of significance, behind the management principles that are outlined, so that we have something in place for the next two months while we wait for this document to come back to us in final form. We've got 28 days for it to be on public exhibition, then a report has to be prepared, then it has to fit into the cycle of— then the authors of the report have to make any adjustments to the final plan, and then it has to come back through the cycle of Council meetings before we adopt it.

At best this will take two months. It could take longer, depending on the timeline from the conservation architects, which is why I want to put it in place in principle and still leave the door open for the public to make comments and to have some input into this document. This isn't an either/or. This isn't we take it and exclude the community from giving us any input, nor is it that we still leave this open for another two or three months while we wait for that community input. This , I hope, and it's my aim with this change to the recommendation from the business paper, that we get the best of both worlds. If you can suggest better wording to do that, I'm more than happy to consider it, but I think both eventualities are covered.

Thank you, Councillor Kotlash. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I just wanted to start with a question about point 2. It seemed to me from the however many policies we have, 200, 300, did you get 300? 200-ish , that most of them—thanks—that most of them were to do with things that come directly under Council's jurisdiction, and I was just wondering why point 2 says that Council officers arrange meetings with relevant state government agencies and organisations to discuss the document and how it might be applied now and into the future. It almost seems like we're saying that predominantly the state government has a disproportionate carriage of this document. It seems to me that we have to start, you know, for our revitalisation work and just , you know, reading about signage, and there's just a lot of stuff in here that I think we can get on with now.

And I was just wondering what the intent of point 2 was. Is this more to do with— I'll just get a comment from staff.

Thanks.

Mr Kearns.

So in terms of the various meetings with state agencies, there's a whole range of state agencies we feel would be necessary to talk to, RMS, Department of Planning, for example. In terms of the actual area of the conservation area, there's a number of land holdings and reserves and Crown land and so forth that— Yeah, the state is a stakeholder in terms of that, so that's why I feel we need to have those discussions with those agencies

And also in terms of the current contracts with RMS and... that's right, yeah.

Councillor Sanbronia.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Look, I don't know whether I'm feeling confused or disappointed at this point. As a member of the Heritage Advisory Committee and as a qualified history teacher, I was so heartened when I saw how comprehensive this Conservation Management Plan was. It really is a good document, and it's worth supporting. What was before us tonight was a fairly ordinary procedural motion to then move it to public exhibition, and then the formal endorsement of that policy is down the track. What this has morphed into is just a camel, and it's actively harder to support the motion before us than the recommendation that was in the business paper. This has become politicised. It's become procedurally fraught to the point where the general manager has had to intervene and suggest that to have a form of words that effectively endorses a document before the public consultation period has concluded opens us up to all kinds of problems, and we're just adding and adding and adding to this.

It's very hard for me to support this in the form that it is now, and I was looking forward to the recommendation in the business paper, which was merely to move this to public exhibition, for it to be endorsed unanimously, which would have been, I think, a much more powerful signal. About this Council's intention to look after the heritage of Thompson Square

Than this that's before us now. So it's with genuine regret that I think I've got to vote against this monstrosity, and if it fails, I'll be moving the recommendation in the original business paper.

Councillor Richards. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'm not going to talk too long on this motion. I believe every time Thompson Square or Windsor Bridge comes up, we waste an excessive amount of time rehashing opinions of councillors that are already well on the record and well known. In contrast to Councillor Wheeler, I have a huge problem with Council spending $102,000 on this document, a really huge problem. I have a problem with Council spending ratepayers' money in an era where we are taxing our ratepayers excessively and, in my point, unfairly. My thoughts on the record with this, when we first debated the item, actually going forward and proceeding with getting this document done, the cost is excessive.

The State Government has prepared a strategic conservation management plan previously. I believe the conclusion tonight is a foregone conclusion with our numbers. We all know where everybody stands. I look forward to the Council getting on with doing their business more efficiently. Thank you.

Councillor Ross.

Thank you, Mayor. Another disappointing performance from people who ought to have more respect for the area and their constituents and our constituents.

Similarly with the... but one. Speaker,

Who seems to think that it's a good idea

To chase the

Object of our interest after it has escaped the pound.

It's all very well and good to say , well, this is a particular... It's purely a political point on your part, young man. May I suggest that your attempt at delay

Is really

Quite unconscionable. And the reason I say that is that we may be, with matters of hours, of further destruction,

Irreplaceable destruction occurring within that part of our landscape.

And to do anything other than to act with a great sense of urgency and commitment is again a failure on you and your colleagues' parts, and an absolute disgrace for this area. I'm sorry to say that. I seldom

Speak in such strong terms, but on this occasion, with this matter,

And with the public

Support for the... Cessation of that project , and for good reason, which are good reasons, plural, contained within the CMP should be well enough left alone by you folk. You've done enough damage as it is. Step back and at least have the decency to allow the majority of progressive councillors to attempt to at least put in an eleventh hour plea to the government to restrain itself and the destruction of both the township and the commercial area of this fine settlement . It will never be the same. Just have a look at some of these wretched plans and diagrams. Just absolute trash, disregarding totally everything about this area and its amenity and ambience. Just a disgrace. I'm sorry, I cannot support any of the comments you've two folk have just made. It's a disgrace. Thank you.

Madam Mayor, I claim to be misrepresented.

Point of order, misrepresentation, Councillor Zamprogno.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Councillor Ross says that this is an attempt at delay. I would remind Councillor Ross that I endorsed the Conservation Management Plan and endorsed the recommendation in the business paper, which seeks to move this to public exhibition and which also seeks to have relevant meetings with other stakeholders. If that is delay, then Councillor Ross is mistaken.

Thank you for that clarification, Councillor Zamprogno. Just before I go to Deputy Mayor, just to clarify on point seven, the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Planning, is that what that should read? They are separate. The Minister for Local Government is now the Minister for Environment, Local Government and Heritage, plus there is a Minister for Planning. So is it both or one or? So both. I think it should be both. They are under the same directorship, I think. Okay, so both. Thank you. Just to clarify, Deputy Mayor.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'm trying to, as usual, to strengthen this motion or clarify exactly what we're trying to do with it. If the aim of the motion is to hurry this CMP through so we can use it, what exactly are we using it for? Are we using it, as in point two, to go to some meetings? Is that why there's such a big hurry to not go to public consultation first? If that's all we're going to do with it, then I can't see any reason to not go to public consultation first. What I was thinking was that maybe, listening to Councillor Ross, what maybe the thinking behind this is that we use the CMP to ask for a cessation of works until the CMP can be studied by the government or even adopted by the government.

If that's what we're aiming at, then the motion doesn't say that. The motion merely says we go and have some meetings with them. So what I'm asking is, if we're just going to go and have some meetings with them, then what's the urgency? If there is an urgent need to have it out there and use it to call for the cessation of activities, then we should state that and strengthen point two. So at the moment I see this motion as being a bit like dishwater. It's not one or the other, and I call upon Councillor Wheeler to let us know exactly which way she wants to go with that. I was thinking that when we go to these meetings, perhaps it's a good thing that this document is so thick, because maybe we can use it to hit them over the head with, because that might be the only chance we've got of getting the government to listen to what we want to say.

Thank you, Councillor Calvert. I'll call on Councillor Wheeler just to clarify the intent of how the motion now stands.

The intent is to give us a document that we can begin to use for planning for projects, particularly in the Windsor area, and also so that we can speak to the RMS, who seem to be barreling through Thompson Square, starting on Thursday night, to commence with the project. If Councillor Calvert thinks that the adoption of a CMP by Council will stop the RMS's destruction of Thompson Square, he is a far more optimistic person than I am. This document will not stop the RMS. It will not stop Georgiou. It will not stop the New South Wales Government. What it will give us is some means of managing the disaster that is about to befall us, which is why I don't think we can wait for three months to have some sort of adoption.

In principle, I can't really understand why this is such a difficult concept for people to understand. This is an in-principle adoption that gives the document some weight, that accepts it as a document that Council can begin using, because at the moment it's still a draft and the intellectual property belongs to the authors, not to Council. Once we give it in-principle adoption, we can begin to use this document. At the moment we can't. We can only read it and look at it lovingly. That's not enough. It also, though, allows the community to have an input. I'm trying to meet both sets of expectations. We could have a motion here. You've heard that we've got no statutory reason to take this to the community.

We could just adopt it and get going. But I think it would be really useful for the community to have some input. So I'm trying to achieve both aims.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor

Kotlash. If I could ask another question about that. I think that if we adopt this CMP with, I think the General Manager said this before, and then say with the comments coming from the public at a later date, I think that frees up the intellectual property. I think in principle won't do that. So it might be, yeah , I think we should adopt this document now , pending further input from the community consultation period of the 28 days. So, okay, I think it all just, it just needs to change to Council adopt the draft CMP pending,

How would you put that? I think pending further community input would do, but I don't think in principle will free us up. Yeah.

So we still will require a final endorsement, is what you're saying

Councillor Kotlash is just giving some wording suggestion changes, but we just need to clarify, is that including a final endorsement, or are you saying adoption and giving someone the ... Because if we take in public input, we need to discern what of that would be included and what wouldn't. And so the Council would obviously want to look at that finally, I would have thought.

I wouldn't have thought. No, I think we should adopt it now. And look, let's face it, this isn't going to be changed significantly.

No, I think we should adopt it now and get on with it, but don't shut the gate on the consultation.

Okay, so are we right with some wording there, or you want someone to just...? So I think the...

So the recommendation was to adopt the draft Thompson Square Conservation Management Plan prepared by blah blah.

Yes, so take out the in principle

Yep, comma,

Pending further community input

Following consultation, or following exhibition, sorry, for 28 days

And then point three could probably go. Could point three go?

Councillor Rasmussen, are you happy with that? You're the seconder. On there, I think, are you? Oh, Councillor Ross, sorry, it's Councillor Ross. It was an R. It was that. Okay.

But could I crave a further indulgence from the mover, please?

Yes

I wish to make the point, and I think the Deputy Mayor has made it, is that he is proposing that we need a little bit more action than just purely meeting. That we do want to use this document

As our last-ditch stand in which to make representations for the cessation of the project. And in light of that, I would really very much appreciate my colleagues' inclusion of such an amendment, please. Thank you

I'm just going to seek some clarification from Mr Koons. Firstly, just if we could just have a very brief, so everyone understands and so the gallery understand what exactly the CMP can and will be used for, firstly. And then to clarify, Councillor Ross, what the intent of the meeting with the ministers was to be from you after that. So could you just give us, sorry, just how would it be used so people understand what, because it's not a statutory document, I understand, so how could it be used?

Oh yeah, a CMP is basically used to assist Council, in this case, manage the space there and make decisions in terms of the future, make decisions in terms of future investment in that space and the type of infrastructure that goes in there and the maintenance and so forth in that space. So it's basically more of a management tool, it's essentially an informed management tool is essentially what it achieves.

Thank you. Mr. Conroy.

That's the longer-term use, but the immediate use is to meet with RMS and the contractors and make them aware of the provisions of the CMP and see if there's any scope to use that to vary the works within the scope of the contract. That's what we need to do. We don't want to have a situation where we find out in three months' time that if we had have told them earlier, maybe they could have done this or could have done that. We need to do that as soon as possible, and we need to make them aware of the document as soon as possible.

Deputy Mayor.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. It would just seem to me that if we're meeting the government bodies to make them aware, then the ultimate aim of that is to have a cessation of what's happening now, so it might change. But now I'm hearing that, well, I heard from Mr. Kearns that maybe the document can't be used that way, which goes back to my original point: if you can't use it that way, then what's the hurry? But I'm very happy to adopt it, and I think adopting it is the way to go. But if we're going to adopt it, then we also need to strengthen what we're going to do with it, and I take on board what the General Manager said, and maybe in point two it should not just talk about how it might be applied, but to discuss.

Whether this document, whether the implications of this document could be that the current plans be put on hold until the document is fully considered, or words to that effect. Because I think that's what you're trying to do. Yes. But that doesn't say it. So

In point two, with meeting with the relevant government agencies and organisations to discuss the document, how it may be applied now and into the future, specifically with regard to the current contract and works proposed.

Continuation. Yes.

We made this lovely big document, and I'm speaking theoretically about hitting people over the head with it, but I mean, really, it's a great document that has a lot of data, a lot of information, and it really could be used very successfully, I think.

So is there any further, Councillor Calvert?

I'm still Point two is still a bit woolly, I've been told. Is that the word? Woolly?

Not curly, woolly.

Sorry. Do

You want to speak to discuss the implications of this

To discuss the implications of this document in terms of the continuation of current plans .

Specifically in regard to the continuation of works

In Thompson Square. Yes, that looks

Good. Is that it? Councillor Ross, are you happy with that as a seconder? Yes. It was the change to number two. Yep. Okay, further discussion.

Councillor Ross.

Thank you, Mayor. Could I ask the Deputy Mayor and the mover to consider the implications in regard to paragraph six, please, of what has just been done.

So you wish for the same message to be in the face-to-face meetings with the ministers?

Oh, very much so, if that were possible.

Okay. So that is also to discuss , as in point two, with the ministers, to include that in the discussion with the ministers.

So do you want to take that point in blue and add it to point six, specifically

In regard to the

Continuation of works? Yes, the same one again. Would that be, repeat that?

Yes.

Further discussion

No further discussion. Right of reply, Councillor

Wheeler. Thanks, Madam Mayor. I think much of it has already been dealt with. I think it's a shame that some councillors are willing to effectively throw the baby out with the bathwater. With this document

It is an excellent and long overdue document. The cost isn't excessive. This is a very large, very well-researched document that this council will get use from for decades. A hundred thousand dollars is a small investment in what the community will get from this document. We have spent a hundred thousand dollars in this council on much sillier things, including reports on dredging of the river, which people seem to think was perfectly fine on previous councils. And quite frankly, if the state government had produced a decent CMP, which is called for under the Burra Charter, the key document for heritage management in Australia, before commencing its plans for Thompson Square, council wouldn't have had to spend a hundred thousand dollars.

So if we're going to blame spending money on anybody, let's lay that blame where it belongs. I thank my fellow councillors for their input to this motion. It is much tighter. It's far less conservative than when I first put it up, thinking that I was trying to please the majority, and we've come to a much stronger document than we started with. So thank you for your input and a bit of nice consensus-style decision making.

Let's get on with getting this out to the public and with using it ourselves.

Thank you, Councillor Wheeler. I'll put the vote for the recommendation that's up on the screen, all those in favour ? Against? The motion is carried.

Madam Mayor, I'd just like to put on notice that I'm leaving the meeting. I think that every single time we debate Thompson Square or the bridge, it turns into a farce. It swings, it's roundabouts, it's ridiculous. I'm taking a stand on this one, and I'm saying that in support of the project and in support of trying to have meetings that actually run properly and actually get what needs to be done, this was a simple procedural motion. I think this council needs a lesson in actually getting things done right, and I'm leaving the meeting.

Can I have someone move the items en bloc, please? Moved Councillor Rasmussen, seconded Councillor Wheeler.

All those in favour?

Aye.

Oh, Councillor Reynolds back in. We'll move to item 192.

Oh, man. I was wanting to move a matter of urgency, which I haven't been able to do earlier on.

What is it, Councillor Ross?

It's in relation to the matter earlier raised as a matter of urgency by Councillor Wheeler, in that I don't believe that motion included any specific action element to it at its conclusion. And I'm wondering if that could not be addressed, please, before we leave the meeting tonight.

No, I can't now. We had to do it at the start, Councillor Ross.

I'm sorry.

Item 192.

Councillor Zamprogno.

I'd like to move the recommendation in the business paper with perhaps an extra dot point.

Yes?

Have you given your extra dot point?

That would be necessary to acquire the consent of a seconder, wouldn't that?

Yes. Who is your second— well, we need to know what it is, so you'll know if someone would second it if

They know what it is. Well, okay. So I'll lay it out briefly now to seek a seconder, and then I'll speak more comprehensively to it. It's merely to ask that Council, as a chamber, throws its weight behind enjoining the Member and the Planning Minister to bring the Hawkesbury part of the Northwest Growth Precinct back into the LIGS scheme, the Local Infrastructure Growth Scheme, which will provide some extra state government input to the developer contributions.

Okay. Seconder, Councillor Wheeler. So you can now speak on that, Councillor Zamprogno, thank you.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I find it disappointing—

Did we move the items en bloc?

Yes, we did. Yeah, we did. I find it disappointing that we have to proceed in the Vineyard area with only a draft or a preliminary developer contributions scheme, since it seems that many other wheels are turning and it feels like we're playing a game of catch-up.

What I'd like to draw particular attention to is that the recommendations and the report in the business paper, although they are generally good, And it's why I'm endorsing them. Don't go far enough, if indeed it barely mentions at all our council's disappointment that the Hawkesbury part of the growth centre is not included in the local infrastructure growth scheme, or LIGS. $369 million was pledged by the state government over a three-year period to provide extra infrastructure in these areas that are subject to development, and that was one of the reasons that developer contributions levied by council could be lower, and that was a proper thing to do. What it's effectively doing is forcing us to charge a higher developer contribution to put infrastructure in these areas that's needed.

The end of the LIGS scheme was announced in July 2017, to be phased out at some point in 2020. The Vineyard Stage 1 precinct ultimately was gazetted in December 2017, and the only reason that that was delayed was because of the uncertainty created by things like the M9.

It's impossible to believe that the state government didn't know that the gazettal of Vineyard was imminent and therefore chose to exempt Vineyard Stage 1 from LIGS eligibility. And the fact that the LIGS scheme, although it might be being phased out, still has nearly two years to run, makes it worthwhile as a chamber for us to throw our weight behind an effort to enjoin the state member, who is our treasurer, and also the planning minister to bring it back into the fold. The LIGS scheme already applies and provides some quantum of state government funds for infrastructure in Box Hill, Box Hill North, Box Hill Industrial, Riverstone and Alex Avenue, Schofields, Marsden Park and North Kellyville, but not in Vineyard.

And yet, as you drive down Windsor Road, all of these areas of development ultimately will be contiguous. And we have residents in the Vineyard area who are making very valid points about the fact that these much higher developer contributions are going to affect the pace of that development. It's going to affect the value. It does nothing for housing affordability in the area. In fact, it places a greater onus on people buying property in this area to fund almost completely the infrastructure that's necessary to make it work. It is ultimately effectively a greenfield development. And yet the contribution that we're getting from the state government is not what it should be. So I'm happy to endorse the recommendation in the business paper, but wanted to add as an extra dot point, if staff are paying attention to the proposed wording, that Council writes to the state member and the Minister for Planning to seek to have Vineyard Stage 1 brought back into the LEP scheme until the LEP scheme itself runs out in 2020.

Thank you, Councillor Zamprogno. Further discussion?

Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. I think there's a couple of points that need to be made about this matter. We've had this development foisted on us by the New South Wales Government, who rezoned the Vineyard 1 precinct without a Section 94 plan in place, and it's placed more financial pressure on Council. The standards and the details of the development are not set by Council. If those who will profit from the new development don't pay for it, it's the state government who created this development and basically demanded that we carry it out, that we provide the infrastructure that they have detailed in... To us, then the rest of the LGA will have to provide it, and that's not fair, and it's not acceptable.

Clearly the community doesn't understand this, and nor do they understand that Council is not the consent authority. They don't understand the disparity between the grants provided for properties in the Hills and withheld from the Hawkesbury that keep Section 94 payments artificially low in the neighbouring LGA. And I want to thank Councillor Zamprogno for adding the raising of this to the recommendation. I think it's an excellent time to put pressure on the local member in the lead-up to an election in March. So I think we should go for it. This is going to be one of those legacy developments. We've seen it in Bligh Park. We're anticipating it in Redbank. If we don't stand up for ourselves and our community while we're here as their representatives, we're going to get done over.

We are being done over by the state government, and it is the rest of the LGA who won't have developments of this standard where they live who will have to meet the costs.

Thank you. Further discussion? Deputy Mayor.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I also thank Councillor Zamprogno for his amendment. My concern is, and he mentioned this in his talk, my concern is affordable housing. Of all the plans I've seen of the precinct, affordable housing, I think, was mentioned once in the whole thing. There's been no real attempt at addressing the issue, and by not having the state government subsidy, it just makes it almost impossible for any developer to go ahead and do that. I did speak to— The Minister, Minister Ayres, at a Wesrock meeting a couple of months ago suggested to him that the state government should be more serious about public housing and where there's a new estate like this one, affordable housing should be built in.

He said to me, Surely you don't expect the state government to get involved in housing again? And I said, Yes, at which point he laughed and moved on to the next question. So we've just had a homelessness week, and one of the things that came up over and over again is that there's a whole chain of relationships between homeless people, affordable housing, and the cost of housing above that. The whole thing is linked. And by not having this subsidy, the house prices in Vineyard are going to be abnormally high , and it will filter down so that those people looking for houses which are affordable, and the definition of affordable, I think, is that you're spending a third or less of your income on the house, on rent or mortgage.

Most people these days are spending nearly half, and by allowing private enterprise to do this without government subsidy means many people are going to be buying those houses with spending up to three-quarters of their income on the house. Now, that is not affordable, and then it filters down and you get more homeless people, et cetera, et cetera. So I know we're talking here about a VPA, but the whole lot is connected because the way in which you finance this, the way in which it's funded, has a direct impact on the availability of affordable housing. So I thank Councillor Zamprogno for putting that in there, and I agree with him that we really need to approach the local member. There is an election coming up, so I'm not just talking about one side of politics.

I think we should be approaching all sides of politics and putting our hand up and saying we would like to see affordable housing treated more seriously in planning, and we would like to see more government subsidies for development so that affordable housing becomes reachable by the average person. So I think what he's put there does that by implication, but I would like to see the term affordable housing thrown in there somewhere because I'd like to do more than imply that. So I might—I don't have the words, but I might leave that to Councillor Zamprogno to consider.

Madam Mayor, I just need to correct the wording of the dot point. Yes May I?

Yes.

Okay then, so— Number

Five.

Yes, so for point five it was, write to the local member and planning minister to have Vineyard Stage 1 included in the local infrastructure growth scheme

For funding of critical infrastructure. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that, but that wording was not correct.

Yes. And are you considering Deputy Mayor's wish to have the wording affordable housing included at some point in the motion as

Well? Not as an extra dot point, but perhaps— But perhaps that the communication with the local member and the planning minister points out the effect of higher developer contributions impacting the affordability of housing.

Could that be added on to the last point? That's going in, that's

Fine. Yes. Okay then, so I'll clarify for the benefit of staff. So as part of point five, comma, and that this communication

Emphasises the impact of higher developer contributions on housing affordability.

Thank you. Further discussion?

Who was your seconder, Councillor Zamprogno? Councillor Wheeler, are you happy with that? Any further discussion?

Right of reply, Councillor Zamprogno.

As the senior Liberal councillor present in the room,

I don't feel I need to add anything more.

Thank you, Councillor Zamprogno. Madam

Mayor. Sorry, Laurie .

Madam Mayor. Yes. There's just a spelling — there's a typo in emphasis. I think it should be emphasised. Not here

Councillor Richards, Councillor Tree, Councillor Conolly. Is everyone else here? All right, this is a planning issue.

We'll vote with our buttons on the count of three, putting the motion that's up on the board. One, two, three.

For the motion, Councillor Ross, Councillor Rasmussen, Councillor Garrow, Councillor Reynolds, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Tree, and Councillor Richards were absent from the Chamber. Thank you.

Our next

Item is...

This is item 193. Nobody called it up. It's the draft Voluntary Planning Agreement, Bells Line of Road, North Richmond. Anybody to move that, please? Moved, Councillor Wheeler. Seconded, Councillor Kotlash. Any discussion?

No discussion. It's also a planning item right here. We'll vote on the— we have to do this one because we need a decision on it. So on the count of three, one, two, three.

For the motion: Councillor Ross, Councillor Garrow, Councillor Reynolds, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Against the motion: Councillor Rasmussen. The motion is carried. Our next..

The three councillors not present were Councillor Conolly, Councillor Tree and Councillor Richards. Our next item is item 1.9.7, Hawkesbury Access and Inclusion Advisory Committee. Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. I just wanted to add to the information in item 2 about the dog bowl water refill stations, and just bring to the members of the committee present, bring to their attention that Council is fitting and maintaining under an EPA project a number of water refill stations, which will include dog bowl water stations, in Howe Park, Windsor Mall, Richmond Park, and Ham Common, and that I believe the library now has a couple of water refill stations as well, near the toilets, and I'm not sure where the other one is. There's also a slight problem on page 69, where there's a reference to impaired individuals entering the library. That is really poor language to use. People with vision impairments is acceptable; impaired individuals is most certainly not acceptable. Could we perhaps have that changed in the minutes, please? Just

To clarify, Councillor Wheeler, it's Sydney Water that does the water filling stations, not the EPA. Sorry. So that would be Sydney Water, and you were adding that

Page 69

Which I am not on —

In the recommendation. Sorry, I'm struggling to find

The page . No , I'm not. I'm trying to be on 69 in the business paper, but I'm not getting there.

Thank you. It's the last dot point. Vision impaired .

I think it should say vision impaired individuals. It's actually more correct to refer to them as people with vision impairment. They are more than their impairment.

Madam Mayor, I'll move the report with those changes.

Thank you, Councillor Calvert. So you're moving —okay , so. All

Right, well, Councillor Wheeler had already moved it, and you'd seconded

It. No, she didn't. She gave us some extra information, I think.

Okay. I'm sorry, I thought she moved it. Okay,

Thank you for that. So that's including on the recommendation on page 66, you've added that on. Further discussion?

Seconder for Councillor Calvert, Councillor Kotlash. Further discussion?

No further discussion. I'll put the motion, all those in favour? Against? The motion is carried. Next item is

Questions on questions.

Any questions from? Okay, fine. Questions on questions. Any questions from the meeting of the 31st of July, firstly.

Any questions from the meeting of the 14th of August?

That it is today.

Fancy that.

No questions. All right, questions for next meeting, Councillor Ross.

Sorry, my apologies, Mayor. May I start again. Number one, would it be possible for Council to follow up the representations that

Were contained in our letter of the 18th of July 2018 to the local member in reference to the

New third river crossing of the Hawkesbury River? As I understand it, we do not have a response, and I would be

Hopeful that the General Manager might consider a follow-up letter there to try and gather the information that Council is seeking, please. Thank you. The next question has relevance to the CMP and WBRP Option 1. I have been unable to assess the ownership in relation to Old Bridge Street, Windsor, despite a number of informal attempts to do so. I would like the Council's response to the question, and I would just remind— sorry, could I point out to Council, it might be a better way in which to phrase it, that the Thompson Square... Draft conservation management plan

Indicates that it is owned by Council.

Now, the old Bridge Street area itself is within the, I guess inverted commas, project area of the WBRP Option 1

My question then is, why has the RMS not sought to compulsorily acquire that area and compensate Hawkesbury City Council accordingly?

Further, next question. What interactions has Hawkesbury City Council had with the RMS regarding residential access, pedestrian access, vehicular access to Old Bridge Street, recreational and boating facilities attached thereto?

Next question. What if any consultations with residents has been afforded them in regard to access , disturbance by equipment, airborne emissions of dust, noise, light and general amenity, and any other relevant matters?

Next question. The contractor, background firstly, the contractor, I came across some of their workforce yesterday, week evening.

And they were performing what was described as a dilapidation report investigation. I'm wondering if it would not be prudent on the part of Hawkesbury City Council for it to conduct its own dilapidation report

Of the

Project area and adjoining areas out as far as Baker Street, I believe, and possibly down as far as Arndell Street, and down to South Creek. I would be guided by staff on that, but if there is some sort of sovereign risk involved, I think it may be prudent.

The next matter

Relates to street parking of heavy vehicles.

Could I inquire, please, as to what state legislation or regulatory arrangements dictate Council's response to street parking of heavy vehicles in the local government area? Does this include powered prime mover units?

Secondly, does the treatment of the prime mover in Hannabus Place, McGraths Hill, differ from the said policies?

Thirdly, does this imply that heavy vehicles can be parked in a street with impunity in the local government area? Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor Rasmussen.

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Mayor.

May I to Councillor Ross.

Could Council please ascertain the daily volume of AWTP at St Mary's water released into the Nepean-Hawkesbury River to sustain its flow?

Councillor Garrow . If the RMS proposed work is to remove vegetation including noxious weeds, one , can we find out, one, what is the noxious weed within the salvage area that is already fenced? Two , when did the RMS become aware of the presence of this noxious weed? Three, was Council advised of the presence of the said noxious weeds and if not, why not? Four, why has no action been taken since the site was established last November to remove these said noxious weeds? Secondly, regarding the heavy vehicle trucks, I believe I brought that up two weeks ago and the answer is in last meeting's business paper.

Thank you, Councillor Garrow. Councillor Reynolds.

Councillor Wheeler. Thanks, Madam Mayor. Could we have an indication of the timing of when Council will receive either a report or a briefing into the PFAS contamination surrounding the Richmond Air Force Base, please? Councillor Calvert.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Last Council meeting we talked about sending some of our fodder to Western New South Wales. I'm wondering, we have a special relationship with Cabonne, so should we be sending it there, because I don't think we mentioned that in the motion . So could we consider that?

Secondly, last week, as you know, Madam Mayor, the Ending Homelessness Year report Part 2 was released. It's a tremendous report, and I would ask if we can make secure copies for all the councillors. And week before that, WesROC released a report on waste, and Hawkesbury Council is strongly involved in that waste program, and it's also another report which I would like distributed to all councillors if possible.

Thank you, Councillor Kotlash. I don't have a question, but I'd just like to point out that noxious weeds isn't the term anymore. You call them priority weeds.

Just, it's

My whole life.

I'm aware of that, but the RMS have termed it as noxious weed.

Okay. Councillor Zamprogno. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Three questions, if I may. Two relate to the way charges are levied to properties with dual occupancies. I'd like some clarification about whether, if there is a dual occupancy or secondary dwelling on a property that is sewered, whether the sewer charge is proportionate to the number of living spaces or to the number of sewer connections to the property. Question two. Do properties with dual occupancy retain the discretion of having one set of bins if they so choose, or are they obliged to have multiple sets of bins? And the third question relates to the quality of the current exhibition at the Hawkesbury Regional Gallery. I am advised that the current exhibition is called Wild: Flora and Fauna in Australian Art, and includes dead mice and birds on plates, not stuffed or displayed in an artistic way or for science, but just sitting there rotting, displayed for the sake of art; a whole wall covered in photos of roadkill, no metaphor, actual roadkill; and a video installation of milk dripping out of a black rock and lambs licking it up, with a write-up saying that it represents the capitalist exploitation of the Third World.

I would like to know what accountability there is for the selection of exhibits in our Regional Gallery so that the community can have some assurance that pointless rubbish is not being displayed in that space.

It's all a matter of opinion, Councillor Zamprogno. No further questions. Can someone move we go into confidential? Moved Councillor Rasmussen, seconded Councillor Kotlash. Go to confidential.

In regard to item 199, Council, whilst in closed session, resolved on the motion of Councillor Rasmussen, seconded by Councillor Garrow, that Council: one, forward its analysis of potential sites for a Police Community Youth Club to Police Citizens Youth Club New South Wales Limited for the construction and operation of a Police Community Youth Club in the Hawkesbury; two, forward the 28 council sites identified in the report to the Police Citizens Youth Club NSW Limited for further investigation. In regard to item 200, Council, whilst in closed session, resolved on the motion of Councillor Wheeler, seconded by Councillor Reynolds, that: one, Council approve of offer offers being made to Michael and Vivian Fernandez as outlined in the report to acquire part of 5 Odell Street, Vineyard, proposed lot 32 in Deposited Plan 1124602, and if accepted, the acquisition be funded in the manner detailed in the report; two, in the event of Council's offer being accepted by Michael and Vivian Fernandez, the General Manager be given delegated authority to negotiate and finalise the basis of payment of the agreed amount; three, Council bear all costs including disturbances up to the amount of $5,000 plus GST where applicable associated with the process of acquiring the subject portion of land;

four, should Council's offers be rejected by Michael and Vivian Fernandez. A. Council undertake compulsory acquisition under sections 117 and 178 of the Roads Act 1993 and sections 196 and 187 Local Government Act 1993 of part of 5 O'Dell Street Vineyard, proposed Lot 32 in Deposited Plan 1244602, for the purpose of dedication as drainage reserve. B. Council approve the making of an application to the Minister for Local Government for the issue of a proposed acquisition notice under the Land Acquisition Just Terms Compensation Act 1991 with respect to the subject land. C. Council approve the making of an application to the Governor for the publication of an acquisition notice in the NSW Government Gazette under the Land Acquisition Just Terms Compensation Act 1991 with respect to the subject land.

D. Grant delegation to the General Manager to execute any documents on behalf of Council associated with the compulsory acquisition process which should not require a seal of Council to be affixed. 5. Following acquisition, the property, Council classify proposed Lot 32 in Deposited Plan 1244602 as operational under section 31(2)(a) of the Local Government Act 1993. 6. Authority be given for any agreements, plans, application forms or other documentation associated with the matter to be executed under seal of Council. 7. Details of the resolution be conveyed to the affected landowners together with the advice that Council is not and will not be bound by the terms of the resolution until such time as appropriate documentation to put such resolution into effect has been agreed to and executed by all parties.

8. Authority be given for the Mayor to issue a press release in regard to this matter. In regard to item 2.01, Council whilst in closed session resolved on the motion of Councillor Rasmussen, seconded by Councillor Garrow, that: one, Council agree to the assignment of the lease of Windsor Function Centre located at 7 Dyke Street, Windsor, from WFC Investments Pty Ltd to OSR Group Pty Ltd as outlined in the report; two, authority be given for the assignment of lease and any other relevant documentation associated with this matter to be executed under seal of Council; three, details of Council's resolution be conveyed to the proposed tenant and existing tenant, together with the advice that Council is not and will not be bound by the terms of its resolution until such time as appropriate legal documentation puts such a resolution into effect has been agreed to and executed by all parties.

And in regard to item 2.02, Council whilst in closed session resolved on the motion of Councillor Rasmussen, seconded by Councillor Garrow, that: one, Council agree to enter a lease with Renee Gray, trading as Bare Beauty and Skin, for the property known as Shop 9, Wilberforce Shopping Centre as outlined in the report; two, in conjunction with part 1A, Council agree to determine a lease with Mrs Jillian Johnson for the property known as Shop 9, Wilberforce Shopping Centre as outlined in the report; three, authority be given for the lease and any other documentation in association with this matter to be executed under seal of Council; four, details of Council's resolution be conveyed to the proposed lessee, together with the advice that the Council is not and will not be bound by the terms of the resolution until such time as appropriate legal documentation puts such a resolution into effect has been agreed to and executed by all parties.

Thank you, Mr Mifsud. Meeting is finished at 8.53. Thank you, everyone.