9 July 2019 - Ordinary

The ordinary meeting of Council for the 9th of July 2019. I'd like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of this land, the Darug people and Paymon respects to Elders both past and present. I would firstly like to hand over now to the General Manager about some procedural matters.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Members of the public attending the meeting are advised that in the event of an emergency, you will be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit, following the guidance of our wardens. I would also like to advise members of the public that in accordance with Clause 5.18 of the Code of Meeting Practice, meetings of the Council are recorded. Council's Code of Meeting Practice includes references to Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, and this may involve the recording of personal information provided at the time of the meeting. The recordings are made to assist staff in compiling the minutes of the meeting and to enable the podcasting of Council meetings.

The provision of any information that is recorded is voluntary. If any person does not wish to be recorded, they should not address or request to address the meeting. The recordings may be made available to other persons where such access is in accordance with the relevant regulations, and the recordings are stored on Council's record management system. For the benefit of those persons who will be addressing the Council tonight, it is expected that you will refrain from making any insult, allegation or personal reflection against any person present or not at this meeting. This request relates both to your address to Council and any answers given in response to questions from Councillors. Finally, it is also requested of any person in the Council Chambers has a mobile phone that they either turn it off or turn it to silent.

Thank you, Mr Mayor.

Thank you, Mr Conroy. Do we have any apologies, please?

Councillor Tree, Councillor Rasmussen.

Someone like to move we accept the apologies? Moved Councillor Garrow, seconded by Councillor Wheeler. All those in favour say aye. Those against? Declared carried. Are there any declarations of interest? No? None. Confirmation of the minutes of the previous meeting. Would someone like to move that we accept those minutes? Moved by Councillor Kotlash, seconded by Councillor Richards. All those in favour say aye. Declared carried.

We have two items that are subject to public address. First item is item 124, and our speaker is Nicole Mulford. Please come forward, Nicole.

Good evening, Mr Mayor

And Council. Has that switched on, this?

Thank you.

My name is Nicole Mulford and I am the President of the Hawkesbury Sister City Association. At this juncture of presenting the annual report to Council, we would like to thank Council for its ongoing support of the Association. Over the years, we've worked with many Council representatives on our committee and have been well supported in the initiatives our Association offers. Our Association has a strong history of facilitating meaningful student exchange programs with our two sister cities, Temple City, California, USA and Kiratamba, Japan. In addition to the annual facilitation of the inbound and outbound student exchange program, the past 12 months have seen our involvement in some significant events which have truly celebrated the friendship and bond of the sister cities agreement.

We've been very fortunate over the past two years to continue to foster the growth and development of our student ambassadors with the creation of our Youth Committee. While we've always maintained youth representation on our committee, the desire by such a large number of our ambassadors in giving back to our program and community saw the need to look at a way to allow them to develop within our Association. Our youth ambassadors continue to surpass our expectations, always looking for opportunities to lead initiatives within the program. In August 2018, we celebrated a key milestone in our relationship with Kiratamba, celebrating the 30th anniversary of the Sister City Agreement. With Council's support, we were able to celebrate this significant milestone with our Kiratamba student ambassadors, the Mayor, Councillors and the Consul General of Japan.

This was a true celebration of the friendships that have endured through the Sister City Program, bringing together members of the community whose involvement have varied from their year of selection to current members of the committee. As a former participant in the Green Leaves Mission, a program facilitated through HSCA in 1999, it was a true honour for me to be able to recognise the 30 years of friendship and what it still means for me and my family. Just last week, we welcomed 38 visitors from the Brightside Group, a singing and performing group from Temple City High School. This was a fantastic opportunity for us to forge greater links within our community, with Arndell College hosting the group for a day and facilitating a joint performance between their own music groups and the Brightside Group.

The group's visit brought together many members of the community who had both past and present associations with the association and was a way of further showcasing what the Hawkesbury has to offer. We have recently mourned the loss of Wendy Low, a prominent member of Temple City Sister City Association, to cancer. Wendy's contribution to Sister Cities has been long and significant, most recently hosting Hawkesbury Ambassador Rose Ryan in April of this year despite her failing health. We are most thankful to Council for their support in memorialising Wendy with a tree planting ceremony in Friendship Park when her son Darren arrives as part of the Temple City student delegation this month. Our 2018 AGM saw many changes within our committee, and it would be remiss of me not to publicly acknowledge the significant efforts that have been made by many of our committee members over significant periods of time.

Tina Tallack stood down as Association President. Her tireless efforts on behalf of the association cannot be understated, and her ongoing support of the association through the Brightside visit is a testament to her contribution and the value she's placed in this program. Yvonne Wayland was a member of the association since its inception, and again, her investment in this program needs to be publicly acknowledged. Both Tina and Yvonne retain life membership of the association and are to be commended on their investment in the program. We've been very fortunate to have developed very positive relationships with Council throughout this program. Mr Mayor, as a formal Council representative on our committee, we would like to thank you for your ongoing support of this program and your support of us as volunteers in ensuring that we are able to continue to provide a valuable product for residents of the Hawkesbury.

To the rest of the councillors who've helped to form our association and continue to support the delivery of our program, thank you. And to Robin and Suzanne for their ongoing help and support as we navigate our new roles within the association. In closing, if I could just take this small opportunity to thank all the members of the Hawkesbury Sister City Committee who selflessly volunteer their time to ensure that this program is able to continue to run. We look forward to meeting with you again soon to present both our inbound and outbound student ambassadors. Thank you.

Thanks, Nicole. Would you be happy to answer any questions, should there be any? Yes. Does anyone have any questions? Doesn't look like it. Thanks for that, and thanks for the hard work you do for the Sister City Committee. The item is up for discussion. Someone like to move something? Move,

Mr Mayor.

Deputy Mayor, you want to move the recommendation? Yep Councillor Conolly, you want to second that? Deputy Mayor, you wish to speak to that?

Just a general statement of being in support of the Sister City Association. I've been to many of their events and met many of the people involved with it, and I think that it's, you know, it's a fabulous thing for our area, and I thank them, the volunteers associated with it, for all their wonderful work. Thank you.

Thank you. Any further discussion? Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. I think now is an excellent opportunity to commend Tina Tallack on her years of service to the Sister Cities Association. I think she chalked up nearly two decades as president of the association. That's a remarkable period of time to be doing something as challenging, I think, as looking after other people's children across three continents. It's certainly not for the faint-hearted, I don't think, and yet she did it with enormous warmth. I think Mrs . Mulford made an interesting point about the youth subcommittee of the Sister Cities. Given that we often have trouble engaging with that demographic, it might be a good idea to make note of the youth subcommittee and use that as a possible avenue for making contact with teenagers in the Hawkesbury.

And I think it's also timely to mention the loss of Wendy Lowe. What it shows is the remarkable ability of the Sister Cities Association to form these really strong bonds that make the trips that these families make now, over a couple of generations, turns these associations into family, family-like relationships, rather than just—they're not just visitors. They stay in contact for, in the case of some families, several generations and multiple children. And I think that's a testament to the power of this program. And it's, I think, it's one of Council's best contributions. It's certainly money well spent. And I think if you haven't been along to a Sister Cities event and you haven't seen the same batch of kids go and come back again, you're really missing out.

It's quite amazing. The parents comment on the remarkable growth of the kids, and they really, they have radically changed by the time they come back, having negotiated another culture. So it really is a lovely program.

Thank you. Any further discussion?

No.

Deputy Mayor, do you want right of reply? Not

Necessary, thanks.

In that case, I'll put the motion. The motion is that the 2017-18 Annual Report for the Sister City Program be received and noted, moved by the Deputy Mayor, seconded by Councillor Conolly. If you're in favour of that motion, please stand.

In favour of the motion: Councillor Ross, Councillor Garrow, Councillor Reynolds , Councillor Wheeler, Deputy Mayor, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Richards and Councillor Calvert. Absent: Councillor Rasmussen and Councillor Tree. Declare it carried.

The next item subject to public debate is item 127. We have one speaker, Mr. William Sneddon.

Mr. Mayor, Councillors, staff, gallery. I'm speaking in favour of item 127 regarding the management of Crown reserves put up by Infrastructure and Services. I note from the papers, Crown Land Act 2016 requires council land managers to manage Crown lands as public land under the Local Government Act 1993. A council is to seek consent for 14 reserves named in this report, and there to be Classes operational land, et cetera, under the Local Government Act 1993. The proposal will allow a more consistent, hopefully, and streamlined, one would wish, approach for council management of the Crown reserves in our area that are nominated. This is as a response to feedback to the review into the Crown Land Act in 2014.

However, I don't know whether I should make an equine allusion at this stage regarding a gift horse being looked in the mouth. The initial categories for the land is to be assigned and forwarded for approval by the Minister. And I notice Bushells Lagoon, which has some quite complicated recent history and problems with water management, etc., is not included at this stage. One would have to wonder why. My allusion, in part, to the equine reference is that I'm wondering quite what we're buying into further to what's actually recommended in the report. Whilst this is a tidy-up situation that's possible for many of the strange parcels of land that Council has, and hopefully to clarify management and running of things, I do have a few concerns longer term.

The financial implications noted in the report are that the Office of Local Government has provided $59,710 to assist Council in preparation of the compliant plans of management of public reserves. My concern here is that, having had to do with a couple of things administered by the State and things having to be Minister-approved, everything took longer and cost a lot more than where implicated the simple process was to start with on a number of things that I've had to do with. So I've got a few concerns about how that figure has arrived at. It does seem to be very precise, if not concise, and whether it's actually going to be appropriate and whether or not the ministerial approval will be as straightforward as apparently in the paper.

However, I'm also concerned about whether what's involved here is going to recover all Foreseeable administration costs in the future after these approvals are sorted. Also, will Council have further budget burdens with the ongoing processes involved regarding management of the lands? Are we biting off more than we're doing at the moment on behalf of the State Government? In other words, is there potential for further cost shifting from New South Wales State Government to Hawkesbury Council and the ratepayers in the years to come? We may, for example, I could conceive, need more staff for admin of the parcels of land involved and maybe site work by managers, etc., that we don't foresee at the moment.

We've just had the extra insurance levy lumped on us, and this is not able to be included in this budget directly. Does the $59,710 fit into this year's budget? I'm a little bit concerned here. I'm not opening the horse's mouth, but I must say that we, as a councillor, are mandated to say fit for the future, and are there any hidden implications beyond what's directly in the paper? We may be getting a fine-looking equine, but I'm hoping that the teeth are in good condition and relatively young. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Sneddon. You happy to answer any questions? Yes, sir. Are there any questions? Apparently not. Thank you, Mr.

Sneddon.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. It's a rather complex issue, the transfer of the various parcels of Crown land that's being proposed under the amendments to the Crown Lands Act. The report goes through a number of different controls that are on properties that Council has, in some way, an interest in. So some of those relate to just simply transferring Crown lands to our control. Others are where we already have those lands, and then there's some other ones where we're proposing that the categorisation be changed to operational.

One of the key things within this is that it is intended to streamline Council's decision-making on many of the actions that happen on Crown lands that we're responsible for the management of. So in that regard, it makes things a lot easier, particularly when we're dealing with leases and licences on land. So at the moment, they're referred off to the Minister. So the changes will do that, probably in relation to the issues that Mr Snedden raised. There are costs that Council incurs currently with the management of Crown lands in various ways. That largely won't change. We're required to prepare plans of management now under the Local Government Act, and that's what the money is allocated in the from the State toward preparing those generic plans of management that will now comply with that.

Previously those lands were not managed under the Local Government Act; they were managed under the Crown Lands Act. So now that's the major change that's occurring, is that we need to manage them as we would any other public reserve that we own. It's probably in a nutshell. So there's probably a number of multiple properties in there, and we've tried to clarify what the land categories and the locations of those are.

Thank you, Mr Organ. The matter is open for discussion.

Councillor Conolly wants to move the recommendation. Do we have a seconder? Councillor Kotlash. Councillor Conolly, do you wish to speak? Any discussion?

Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. Ms. Organ referred to the— do we have a projected cost of how much this is likely to cost us to get to the stage where we have plans of management, all the plans of management that are required? Mr. Organ?

Don't have a final cost because the money that's being allocated through the state is to prepare essentially the generic plans of management. We do have a number of plans of management for other sites that we will develop over time, which will supplant those. They'll be done at that time. So I don't have an exact cost of doing those, but they'll be Council's decision under the Local Government Act as to whether we want to proceed to do those. But they will be a cost that Council will need to bear.

And is that cost likely to be covered by the $59,710, given that we've already seen significant staff resources go into this to date?

Mr. Organ? No, that would not be sufficient to do site-specific plans of management.

Thank you. Has there been any improvement to the training for native title managers? I think when it began, it was extremely short for such a complex role. Has there been any changes to that?

Mr. Organ?

Not being the native title manager, it's a little bit difficult for me to answer that. There's been a number of training courses and discussions between councils and Crown Lands over how to manage that and the processes involved. I think it's a little bit of a learning exercise for everybody. But Michael Wern might be a little bit easier to answer that question on the training for native title.

Mr Wern, are you in a position to answer? Yeah

Through you, Mr Mayor. Myself and Sean Perry are the two native title managers, and we attended a training session in late February put on by Landas, who is, I guess, a third party who has experience in dealing with native title claims. The training was very good, but I think we still have a bit further to go to be fully confident that we're appraising native title matters appropriately. So we do use our legal panel when we have to sort of make decisions or decide what advice to give on native title matters.

Thank you, that's helpful. Mr Conroy wants to add something.

Also, Councillors, I received correspondence today advising of an opportunity for councillors, staff and other interested parties to attend further training in Sydney towards the end of the year. That'll be circulated to all councillors in the next day or so.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. Sorry, another question. So it turns out that we've got 90 reserves. Is that a high number of reserves relative to other councils? Mr

Organ?

I'd have to take that on notice. It's probably, yeah, can venture it with our area and the various parcels that we do have, I mean the size of the local government area and the number of villages.

Thanks. So I guess what we're seeing here is an emerging cost pressure on Council that I think we probably need to keep our eye on going forward, because if we don't, we're likely to have to stump up the money to firstly meet our statutory requirements, but secondly to actually act as decent managers of all of these sites, some of which are quite sensitive and some of which are going to require some significant management. I would like to see Bushy Lagoon come back for further discussion. Part of the problem with Bushy Lagoon seems to be the lack of a coordinating manager across the— Across the whole area that Bushells covers, it's a very large and quite complex space, and because of its historical usage, that has become even more complex now.

And I think there's some serious conflict of use between its use as a water supply and a wetland breeding habitat, and I think it would be helpful , and certainly consistent with the information that came out of the wetlands working group and the facilitated session that we had with local stakeholders regarding wetlands and the management of Bushells in particular. I think that would be consistent with their wishes and certainly the advice that we've received from them. I'd also like to see included in the table discussions of different parts of the different reserves the fact that Wilberforce Park has a state heritage listing on it. That's made mention of, I think, for McQuade Park. Wilberforce carries a similar listing and dates to the same period and the same intent of McQuade Park, that it was a Macquarie era town square.

And in fact, it's the only intact Macquarie era town square remaining in New South Wales. So with those additions, I think, and

Some serious concern for our financial management, I guess we're good to go.

Thank you, Councillor Kotlash.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Following on from what Councillor Wheeler has just said about Bushells Lagoon, I was a bit surprised to read the fourth point in the recommendation that a further report would be brought back . that just looked at Bushells Lagoon. I would have thought that we really needed to look at all our wetlands, and it didn't. I was confused with why Bushells was singled out, and I suppose a question there is, was Bushells Lagoon included in this report because there is community concern, or is there a special circumstance around its Crown land ownership and that situation?

Mr Organ. It was brought back principally for the former, that there was obviously concern around it, and it is Crown land, but it wasn't part of what was offered up for Council to manage. So we thought it's best to highlight that and not walk away from the particular issues that were there, well, longer than 18 months ago, but certainly in terms of water management and the conflicts. And so we need to actually come back with a report that details how that's best dealt with, not necessarily Council saying we want to take it on, because we may be very ineffectual given those water issues. And I think the words of Councillor Wheeler is probably best that we need to get somebody who manages it appropriately but has all of the controls over it. So that would probably be where we'll head.

Thank you , Mr Organ. Another quick question. I was a bit confused in the, on page 54, when it has the discussion about the Yarramundi Reserve, it refers to Crown water. Is there a typo or is there a particular— Part of Crown lands, that's Crown water.

Mr Organ? That would be a typo.

Oh, right. Okay. Sorry, I did think, geez, that has to be a typo. I won't

Blame typo on the operator.

Only because I thought, geez, I've never heard of Crown water. Anyway, good. And again, the Yarramundi Reserve, there's parts of that that likewise with Bushrangers Lagoon need, you know, may need to be looked at if we are indeed going to go down that route. But apart from that, great work. It's a really complex issue and it's good that we've been able to recognise all of these areas and start to align them appropriately. So well done, everybody involved. Thank you.

Councillor Ross. Thank you, Mayor. Questions, if I may. The first relates to page number 50, the diagram, which is at the heading of that page. There is an arrow pointing midway on the page uphill and to the left. At the base of the arrow is seek ministerial consent to be Crown land manager, and the arrow points back to where Council is Crown land manager. I'm just wondering if that is not redundant. It seems like a circuitous—

Mr Organ, are you positioned to answer that?

Through you, Mr Mayor, I'd need to go back to the source document, but it's indicative of the flow process. Could be a type, could be an error in that one. Happy to get back to you, but it's something just of guidance.

My second concern is in relation to page 53. The North Richmond Park, and the comments made earlier in the report, which would indicate that Council does not have the right to licence that area, in fact, to the Sports Council, or to do anything other than allow its use as a public open space without any rights to licence or lease that facility, unless there is a change in the status of the property. Am I correct in that understanding?

Mr Organ.

The current stat- I'm reading the written sentence. You're looking at there now, they licence. I'm not sure whether there are any formal licence agreements between the Sports Council and any users. They're basically given use of it. But it would clarify any future arrangements for leasing out of any areas, that would be easier under the changes to the Crown Lands Act. But I'm not aware of any actual licences that are issued there now. So that may be slightly misleading, but I'm happy to clarify whether there are anything after checking with the Sports Council.

Yes. Could I direct you to page 49, dot point number 3. Which reads, Where Council manages Crown land under section 48 of the LG Act, in brackets devolved management, close brackets, the reserves remain available for leases or licences only with the consent of the Minister for Water, Property and Housing. They are not managed as part of the LG Act. The question, Councillor? So, are we, as an initial step, proposing to approach the Minister seeking management, pending a possible change in the, if you like, the status of that land?

Mr Organ? I could just have— Two minutes. Mr Organ is going to look that up and get it back to you in a couple of minutes.

Okay. Oh, that's fine. Thank you very much. Do

You have any other questions, Councillor

Not at this juncture, thank you. Did

You wish to speak at all or just had the questions? Right. Any other speakers?

Nope. I'm waiting for Mr Organ to have an answer to that. Any more

Questions? No

There's no more questions and no more discussion. Maybe Councillor Conolly would like to do right of reply?

I'd really like to hear the answer first,

Mr Mayor

Could I ask the General Manager? Councillor Ross's question, regardless of the answer, will that have any effect on the recommendation on page 57? Got an answer, here we go.

So probably to clarify, so what the information on page 49 is, is that's the changes to the Act in summary. In the recommendation, what we are asking is that that land council be classified as the Crown land manager, which would allow us to do those licences. So the changes to the Act require the council to apply to the minister to become the Crown land manager. That changes the devolved status of the land to allow us to enter into those licences. So that's what's identified in section 3B of the recommendation. So we would be seeking to be Crown land manager.

Councillor Ross, you okay with that?

Yes, of course, that's contingent upon the minister confirming that status, I

Guess so.

Could we,

If you like, cover the current situation by

Not only seeking that change

As recommended, but also failing approval to seek the ministerial permission to exercise the right to, if you like, licence. Use of that particular open space.

So you're suggesting we have a

Plan B? Yes, yes. I think a Plan B might be as well because otherwise there could be a shortage of facilities. I'll take that as a

Question, Mr Alden.

Through you, Mr Mayor, I don't believe that's necessary at this stage. As I'd indicated, I'll come back once we've discussed. Simply the use of the fields by other parties under the auspices of the Sports Council, as Council has delegated that authority to them to manage that, that would not be inconsistent with the current arrangements. It would be if there were specific licences or leases in a formal sense, rather than just a hire of the fields essentially to various groups. So we just need to look at the status of how they've done that. As I said, I'm not aware of any particular licences have been issued there, but I'll need to take that up

With the Sports Council and

Just see whether there are anything that might fall into that category, and if so, then we'd need to take some action. We'll come back with a report if that's required.

Councillor Conolly, now you've heard the answer, would you like your right of reply? Not necessary?

In favour of the motion is Councillor Ross, Councillor Garrow, Councillor Reynolds, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Samprogno, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Richards and Councillor Calvert. Absent is Councillor Rasmussen and Councillor Tree. Declare it carried.

There's no mayoral minutes. We move to items on block. Moved that way. Moved Deputy Mayor, seconded Councillor Wheeler. Any discussion? I'll put that then. All those in favour say aye. Declare it carried.

We now move to item 123, moved by Councillor Conolly. Do we have a seconder?

We have a seconder for item 123, Councillor Wheeler. Councillor Conolly, would you like to speak on that?

Only to say that I think we should, I think this is a great course of action. We should point out to IPART that we can't afford it, and that we would much prefer they just stuck with what was suggested to them rather than going out of their way to make it more expensive than what the actual body asked for.

Thank you. Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. Could I add a point three to the recommendation that a copy of the submission be sent to Robyn Preston, the member for Hawkesbury, to keep her informed of our concerns.

You happy with that, Councillor Conolly? Yes, he's happy with that.

I think, look, I think it's good that there's now legislation in place that prevents councils from running their own elections. The perception of bias is simply too great, but it's not reasonable to exploit councils who, by some natural monopoly that seems to have formed.. . This council has behaved really responsibly here. We've always used an external body. In this case, the New South Wales Electoral Commission, which is well respected. We've set aside a yearly amount to cover costs, and we've made sure that we've allowed for inflation in that, and we've currently got $441,000 set aside. But now we've got costs that have shifted almost totally to councils. So apart from the costs that councils can't be expected to bear, so things like keeping the electoral roll and state advertising, and I will note there was precious little advertising in the last election, so that those of us who stood at pre-poll for two weeks were basically a walking public service announcement.

Half the electorate had no idea that they even had to vote, and funding disclosures, which again would be completely inappropriate to be handled by council in-house. We're now looking at a 67% cost increase, and this is just extraordinary, and being asked to pay for executive staff and IT costs that councils really should not be expected to bear, given that we have no control over the staff involved. I would have liked to see the review examine pre-poll and the cost impost of two weeks of seemingly endless pre-poll at two different locations five kilometres apart, but it seems that that didn't come up. IPART doesn't even agree with the New South Wales Electoral Commission's costs and responsibilities.

As Councillor Condly said, giving the Electoral Commission money that they didn't actually even ask for. It's a shame that they didn't do the same thing for us when we last asked them to look at the pricings for developers. Some of the costs are quite ridiculous, like project management. We've got councils that have got less than 20,000 ratepayers. Why on earth would they be paying for project management? Why should councils pay for head office costs? We've got no say in the running or hiring of staff or management. These are the costs of running a democracy. Local government remains under the control of the state government. We're able to be dismissed or amalgamated at the whim of a minister.

Why do we have to then fund the system that the state government forces onto us, along with bearing the burden of all the other cost shifting pushed our way? It used to be that our fight was frequently with the state government. Now it seems that our fight is with the independent body. I don't —should we just open the till and let everybody put their hands into it? This is becoming ridiculous. Every time we turn sideways, the costs for everything that we face—electricity, now elections—are going up by 50% or more. 67% is a massive impost for a council to bear 12 months out in some sort of backward system that seems to want to charge us more now for cost savings we might get in the future, if only our local businesses could come up with the same idea and fleece people as they came through the door.

It's remarkable.

Thank you, Councillor Wheeler. Any further discussion? Councillor Sam Brockman.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I suspect that if Council announced that a cost that we were responsible for had run out of control and had increased by 67%, the state government and its representatives would be queued up to accuse us of being inefficient or of pork barrelling. And it's disappointing to see this quantum of cost increase foisted upon us. When I was a very young man, I have a dim recollection of a council meeting in the nascent early years of my interest in politics. And on the evening of a council election, I came along to the grassed area at the foot of the steps outside here, where Gary McCully was busily flitting along a chalkboard, not a whiteboard, and tallying up the votes from the various booths in an era where the council was— Responsible for the election.

We could do that now.

And, like, that image is fixed in my mind for some reason. Although, as Councillor Wheeler says, you know, the possibility of us even wanting to conduct the election ourselves, it looks like it's going to be permanently taken off the table, it would have been interesting to know at what point we would have made the decision that it would have been cheaper for us to just do this internally, because an increase of cost of over 60% is completely unsustainable, and I do support the recommendation which says that in our submission back to IPART that we will ask for an inversion of the sequencing of this to see if we can bring forward some of those cost savings.

Thank you, Councillor Zamprogno. Yes, I remember that as well. I think the year I was elected, 1999, it was still done that way. We still turned up down here in the middle of the night to see what the results were. We have progressed a bit since then. Deputy Mayor.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'll just speak briefly. I think what the other councillors have said is quite right, but it is quite appalling to have such a level of increase even proposed to us. It's a shame there's not, like, a budget version of an election, because I'm sure we could live with that if we just had a, you know, no-frills budget, no-frills election being held. But I think what Councillor Wheeler has said, and perhaps at some point soon we should make some sort of representation to the state government on this regarding reforming the amount of time. People spend at pre-poll and so on. It's just a phenomenal drain on resources and, yeah, we just shouldn't have to put up with it. And I think having a local member who's also a councillor, I think she'd be most understanding and quite likely to take that forward.

So I think that we get our submission in and hope for the best. It's very expensive. I really can't see how it can actually cost that much. But if we could cut it back in time and the amount of resources required to run it, then that would certainly be a good thing. It's probably time, I would think generally with elections, that it's time for some sort of overhaul about how all elections are run and how people are able to resource them and so on, and the inevitable move into the digital sort of online voting systems that will be coming before long.

Thank you, Deputy Mayor. Any further discussion?

No. No further discussion. Councillor Conolly, would you like right of reply?

No. I'll put the motion as it appears on the board now, which has points one, two and three. All those in favour, please stand.

In favour of the motion: Councillor Ross, Councillor Garrow, Councillor Reynolds, Councillor Wheeler, Deputy Mayor, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Richards, Councillor Calvert. Absent: Councillor Tree and Councillor Rasmussen. Declare it carried.

Move to item 126 , Macquarie Park. Councillor Reynolds. Move the recommendation. Move the recommendation. Sorry

No, I remove an amended version of the recommendation. Amended. Yes, Mr. Williams. As on the board, is it?

Should have it on the board

Wait for it to come up.

That's the amendment. That's the amendment. Yeah, that's the amended one. Yes. Do we have a seconder for that amendment?

What's the change?

The change is that as the applicant has not confirmed the precise location and has not advised alternative dates in the event of inclement weather.

In the event of inclement weather.

Yeah.

What have you changed? Oh, just not the precise location. In

The event of inclement weather and due date

And the venue. And the venue, yeah. Yep. So precise location and the venue are the changes. Yep. Okay. All happy. Do we have a seconder for that? Councillor

Conolly. The reason why I see ... Yeah, that's what I was looking at, because the numbers have changed. That's why.

Yes, we, yeah. The letters The letters.

Two . Sorry, that's all right,

Trace

Fixed. Are

We all have our grammar and our syntax.

Councillor Reynolds, you wish to speak to this?

I'd just like to say, Mr Mayor, I think this is a wonderful proposal. The issue did come to— sorry, the item did come to the Local Traffic Committee on Monday. There were some concerns raised by the police and the RMS, not by us, but the police and the RMS, because it is a state road, and that immediately triggers the approval of TMC, or the Traffic Management Centre in Sydney, which would normally require the use of the implementation of a traffic management plan. So we're still to work through these issues. And what we're doing here is just giving a little bit of flexibility. For example, Councillor Garrett just suggested just a couple of minutes ago, perhaps if the RMS and police are concerned about access to and from the event and pedestrian issues, that perhaps parking could be, for example, in Governor Phillip Park and people taken by shuttle bus.

There's going to be a way around these problems. We had a similar sort of issue with a fun run that was organised by the St Albans RFS, where they left their traffic management plan too late. And while the chances here, just need to congratulate Lily Stepanovic from the St Albans RFS, because she went above and beyond everything to get the documentation in, and that event is now going ahead. So, Councillors, we're quite prepared to work with the promoters of these sorts of events. When curveballs are thrown at us by— Agencies not under our control. So I hope that people will support the recommendation. Thanks.

Thank you. Any further speakers?

No.

Well, you could have right of reply if you wanted to.

In that case, I'll put the recommendation as it appears on the board. If you're in favour, please stand.

In favour, Councillor Ross, Councillor Garrow, Councillor Reynolds, Councillor Wheeler, Deputy Mayor, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Richards, Councillor Calvert. Absent are Councillor Rasmussen and Councillor Tree. Declare it carried.

We move to reports of committees, the Heritage Committee, Councillor Wheeler. Well

You go. Either of

You. I'll move that one. Councillor Reynolds moving that, and with an amendment to the recommendations, just an additional recommendation, 0.5, which Mr Wern has. Tracy ,

Okay, that's just the 0.5.

In the recommendations it says the

Heritage Committee recommends that a presentation be given to the Tourism Committee regarding the birthplace of the fair go. At the Heritage Committee members were presented with a paper, an academic paper outlining the case for the Hawkesbury to be able to claim that it is the home and the birthplace of the fair go. It was unanimously accepted by all members of the committee, and they then recommended that it go to the Tourism Committee for their consideration. The issue is that there is more to this than just an academic report. There is a

Human element to it. There is wonderful stories, colourful characters. Courageous yet flawed characters. And this

Councillor Reynolds.

I need a seconder.

Yeah , I just wanted you to

Explain what your new—

Sorry

The change was .

The change is that a working group would perhaps only have to meet once or twice, be formed just to collate the information to develop a presentation that would then go to the Tourism Committee and other parts of Council. Do we have a seconder

For that? Councillor Sam Perogno.

Councillor Reynolds, please continue. Yeah, sorry about that, Mr Mayor. So, the point is that the Tourism Committee shouldn't be presented with just a dry academic treatise. It should be given the full human story. And the information is about, and all we need to do is to put it together. And I've suggested it's almost like an inter-committee working group, in that we have two council members of the Heritage Committee and one from the Tourism Committee, the chair, and any relevant staff as required. It's mainly, again, just to collate the information that is about and to put it into a form that then can be taken to the traffic— sorry, the Tourism Committee. And it's just a simple working group that, as I say, may only meet once or twice. Thanks.

Thank you, Councillor Reynolds. Any further discussion?

Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. So, as Councillor Reynolds says, there is a correction that's required to the minutes, in that the birthplace of the fairgo should read that it goes to the Tourism Committee. It's already been to the Heritage Advisory Committee, so it doesn't need to come back until something else has happened with it. Just a few items that I'd like to bring up so that Council is aware of them. The Local Heritage Assistance Scheme was very successful this year. There was some really inspiring work that came out of it, from painting, replacement of fencing , to a really beautiful veranda replacement that has quite changed the look and perception of a slab building at St Albans and upskilled both the owner and members of the community who worked on the project.

This is not a huge amount of money from Council, and there is a contribution also from the State Government for the Local Heritage Assistance Scheme. Hawkesbury Council has been running it for quite a while. It's very successful in bringing heritage owners and Council's heritage advisor and Council's planning staff together to discuss potential improvements for buildings, and providing a small pot of money, usually it's in the order of $1,000 to $2,000. It tends to be set up as dollar-for-dollar funding, but most of these projects end up, in most cases, costing a bit more. And usually the owners put in either substantial work in kind or additional money in order to see the work realised. It does a great deal to educate owners who may not See the value of their heritage asset.

And it also does, in some cases, quite extraordinary work in improving our streetscapes and increasing the unique appeal of the Hawkesbury. It's money really well spent. It makes heritage valuable and therefore it ensures the protection of heritage items. We get a lot of bang for our buck out of this funding. Council's heritage advisor, Otto Sahami, and the staff who set up and manage this program really need to be commended for the work that they do here. We're now at the stage where people are stopping the heritage advisor to chat to him rather than going indoors and closing the curtains, which is what used to happen years ago when people saw someone sniffing around their heritage item. The work at St Albans Cemetery, which was also funded in part by the state government, was some really fabulous work to upskill local community members in managing cemeteries.

We have quite a lot of cemeteries. St Albans, in particular, was a really nice program in typical St Albans style. The whole community came together and there was much food and all of it good, apparently. They did some lovely work at the cemetery and they're really to be commended for their commitment and community spirit. We have discussed previously the problems with the Heritage Near Me program, and we're still waiting on a meeting with Robyn Preston to discuss our concerns. Also of note is the Icomos visit and tour proposed for October 2020. This is quite a big deal. The council's expression of interest has been accepted, and we're hoping that a bus tour to see heritage sites, very early heritage sites in particular, of the Hawkesbury will eventuate.

Also, it would be nice to note the request to put more artwork on public display, and I've got my eye on Council's foyer, where some of the plaques are probably ready for heritage listing themselves. They've been up so long. It seems that we haven't received an award since about 1989. So perhaps we could rotate some nice art through there instead. And also of note is Philip Dallas's reference at the National Trust Awards to Windsor and the destruction of its heritage, sorry chapter. And it's, I don't know if it's nice to be noted. It's certainly not nice to be noted for all the wrong things, but worth a mention, I suppose. This is, as you can see, the Heritage Advisory Committee certainly packs a lot into the two and a half hours of its meetings. This really is an excellent committee. We get lots done.

Councillor Wheeler, if I understand you correctly, you'd like the minutes to be altered. And on page 102, where it says the Heritage Advisory Committee receives a presentation, it should say the Tourism Committee. Would you like to make that a point five, that the minutes be changed in that way?

Six, I think.

Well, I'm a point behind, sorry, point six. Councillor Reynolds, are you happy to make that change? And Councillor Zamprogno? Yes. Yes. Any further discussion? Councillor Zamprogno.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'd like to raise two issues. One is in relation to the point five that Councillor Reynolds has added to the recommendations for our endorsement. And provide maybe just a little bit more context. Jan Barkley-Jack has begun a wonderful process of examining the ways in which the history of the Hawkesbury is particularly distinctive and significant to our national development. And I think this is something that we should make more of. And I thoroughly agree that treated correctly, it would be something that would adorn our area and might well come to the interest of the tourism committee. My master's degree was in the teaching of history, so this particularly engages me. What Jan Barkley-Jack identified back to the earliest days of our colony were a couple of stories relating to the way in which the concept of a fair go has developed.

There was an incident in 1799 where an ex-convict by the name of John Harris had the misfortune of having as his neighbour the commandant of the police or the constabulary or whatever served as the local law enforcement in 1799, Anthony Kemp. And there was a neighbourly dispute about pigs, and the policeman improperly used his power to imprison the ex-convict. The ex-convict asserted his rights and prevailed in whatever legal setting there was at the time with the assistance of the Reverend Samuel Marsden. And this is a great story about how natural justice was becoming woven into the DNA of the early colony. Of course, we are probably all familiar with the story of Andrew Thompson and the fact that our most significant town square is named after an ex-convict.

But after reading and hearing about that story, my own imagination began to spark because I was mindful. Of the fact that the origin of the term a fair go generally is credited to the shearers' strike in central Queensland in 1891. But of course, Australia was at the cusp of a great depression in that time, and the events that were affecting the evolution of our democracy in Queensland were also affecting us here in the Hawkesbury. And in 1893, there was a massive experiment in communism that occurred right here in the Hawkesbury. This was a quarter century before the Russian Revolution and before the idea of communism was stained by the darker aims of international communism. And it was supported by the government.

The government allowed the common at Pitt Town and also a plot of land at Wilberforce, summing some 2,000 acres, to be cultivated by what was called a cooperative settlement. And this was aimed at providing people who were at a low ebb in that depression with the opportunity to band together and to pool their resources and have the dignity of work and community. The government stumped up 6,000 pounds to fund this experiment in communism, and it was, of course, a massive failure. Like communism and socialism fails wherever it's tried. And it's not the fact that the socialist experiment failed; it's the fact that it occurred here in the Hawkesbury and started with a high-minded intent to ask this question in the decade leading up to federation of what disposition of labour and democracy and capital should the Australian nation...

Crystallise around to provide people with a happy and meaningful and free life. And these stories occurred here on our own turf, and I think it's a great thing for us to be able to pursue that and bring it to a wider audience. So that's what I've got to say about that. The last thing that I'd like to do is to propose a yet further amendment with the agreement of the mover, I hope, that relates to the item in the report that talks about the Australiana Pioneer Village. I have sought an answer from council staff for months on the question of what council's responsibilities are in relation to the upkeep of structures and buildings at the Pioneer Village site, and whether they can be devolved to a lessee, such as they have been in the memorandum of understanding that we have with the Friends of the Pioneer Village.

And if that could be brought up onto the screen, I'd seek the mover's agreement to that.

Mr Mayor.

Councillor Wheeler, you wish to—

I need to declare a pecuniary interest if we're going to discuss the Pioneer Village.

Okay. Just hang on a second. We're not actually discussing it yet. Wait till it's on the board and see if someone— see if the mover of the motion accepts it, and then if he does, then you'll have to do it then.

Councillor Reynolds.

You're fine with that? Can I

I've just been notified, if you declare a pecuniary interest and leave the room, Councillor Wheeler, then your amendment would have to now be moved by somebody else. So Councillor Reynolds is accepting that. Councillor Zamprogno, of course, is doing that. So Councillor Wheeler, would you like to state your interest ?

Yes, I have a pecuniary interest in item 128, Heritage Advisory Committee, specifically clause 6. My son is employed at the Australiana Pioneer Village.

So you staying or leaving? Leaving. Thank you. So Councillor Reynolds, you're happy to move that whole motion , including points 5 and 6. Councillor Zamprogno, you're happy with that as well. Any further discussion?

No. Councillor Ross.

Thank you, Mayor. I draw my fellow councillors and your attention, sir, to clause 6. I believe it is in contravention of section 377 of the Local Government Act, in that no external body

Is able to conduct the works of council.

And that is quite distinctly covered by section 377. And I believe, therefore, I certainly can't vote for this matter, and I would suggest that it should be withdrawn.

I might just clarify there. My reading of that is that we're going to decide or find out whether they can be delegated. Is that what you meant, Councillor Zamprogno?

Can I clarify, Mr Mayor, with your indulgence? It was brought to my attention that the lease that Council signed with the Friends of the Australiana Pioneer Village effectively, or implicitly, devolves the responsibility of the upkeep of the buildings and structures at the Pioneer Village to the Friends. And I received a delegation from the Friends who said, Look, can

Council actually do that? It's been signed, but in retrospect, it's worth asking the question whether Council has a responsibility that it can't devolve down to a lessee for that upkeep. And if the answer to that question is yes, then Council needs to step up and make the appropriate contribution towards that upkeep. In the first instance, that's the completion of a proper conservation management plan. And I believe that process is wending its way along now with some assistance from Council and possibly with external grant funding. That will be a good thing. I asked Council staff for the answer to a simpler question, and that is whether that particular clause in the lease was legal or permissible, and whether it was okay for Council to devolve that responsibility in the way that the current lease presently suggests it does.

I've had no answer to that question, so I'm now raising it in the context of this report from the Heritage Committee.

General Manager, are you in a position to

Comment

On that?

I can comment on both points, Mr Mayor. So the resolution, if I understand it correctly, is asking for advice as to whether Council can do this or not. So it's just to confirm one way or another. So I don't believe it's contrary to any legislation to ask for some advice on whether it's possible or not. And I'll confirm that I was the person that the councillor spoke to seeking that advice. We've had a series of discussions with the Pioneer Village. We're getting some legal advice, and we can bring that to Council.

Thank you. Councillor Ross, does that clarify your problem?

We're asking for advice. That's all we're doing. Point six.

Any further discussion?

No. Councillor Reynolds, right of reply. Not necessary. I move the recommendation as it appears on the screen with six points. All those in favour please stand up.

In favour, Councillor Ross, Councillor Garrow, Councillor Reynolds, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Richards, Councillor Calvert. Absent is Councillor Rasmussen, Councillor Wheeler and Councillor Treid

Declared carried.

Someone invite Councillor Wheeler back, and

We proceed to the notice of motion. Deputy Mayor.

Move that, Mr Mayor.

Second that, Mr Mayor. Seconded by Councillor Conolly. Deputy Mayor, you wish to speak? Yes,

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Even though it's quite explanatory, I'll just give the context in which it's brought. Recently, or last week, I think maybe the week before, there was a Hawkesbury Business Week event, a series of events that were held. It was the first of this kind, and I thought it was a wonderful model of how to engage with our local business people and business sector. I attended a number of the events, including at the opening of the conference that they had, and what I came out with after that was that I think there's some more that we can do to engage with this sector of our community. I know, of course, it's not our—we're not the main role in advising people of business, you know, information and so on.

However, I think it's really important to increase the resilience in our economic sector, particularly of these small businesses that are spread out across the Hawkesbury. We have quite a focus on our town centres. We've got lots of plans. We have a lot of publicity around what we're doing in our town centres, but we have an absolute myriad of businesses out there that many I'd never heard of. Most of the ones I spoke to had had no engagement with Council. They had no idea of what Council could offer in terms of assistance or even facilitating information through to them from other levels of government. So the other thing is, of course, many of them are sole operators or very small businesses, so they don't have the time or resources to be going off to maybe to the Chamber of Commerce or to things because they're simply trying to survive by running their business.

So as part of the Economic Development Plan which we have on the agenda, I just wanted to draw attention to raising this section of our both retail and business sector and service industry to ensure that they're included in whatever plan that we have, because it's really important that we build some sort of strong network around them to keep them going. And what I saw was from the series of small network meetings which had been facilitated in various townships across the place, the place, the Hawkesbury, there were people getting together who actually realised they could benefit each other by , you know, getting to know each other and thinking, well, I could refer someone to you, or we could help out, or we get this service.

Where do you get such and such a supply? So just that level of networking, which can be built to strengthen the resilience when, you know, any economic downturn or any incidents occur in our area that they need to, you know, be prepared for, I think that that would be good. We have our meet and greet, but I don't think that these—nobody, I spoke to so many people, they'd not ever heard of it or been contacted about it. And I think that that's great for one sort of section of the people that have been targeted, but if we're having, you know, I mean, we have the emergency services and the CWA and people like that come, that's really good because they also need to tap into the community. But I think there's a lot of businesses out there that simply haven't been aware of both not just events like that, but of any of the events that Council has, also the events where they might be able to have a stall or where they may be able to contribute in some way, as well as— You know, to show their wares.

It was quite astonishing. I mean, there was a lady I came across who actually runs an online bookstore, and she set it up because she had a friend who was an author who was selling through Amazon, and they actually—she ended up with 73 cents a book because all the other money was taken by the big company. And so she started her own, and this is a great service to people all across New South Wales. But, you know, she's there at Grose Vale, and who would know? So she would love to engage and things like that. So lots of different stories like that. So I just think in our plan, looking out for those particular sorts of businesses and the smaller business, especially west of the river, is something that really needs to be part of it.

Thank you, Deputy Mayor. Any further discussion? Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. I went along to the Business Week conference on the Thursday, thinking that I would stay for an hour or so and go home, and in the end I stayed so long that I got a parking fine, thereby proving that no good deed ever goes unpunished. And I have duly paid said parking fine, and I hope we do something useful with that $112. Lots of really good stuff came out of the lunchtime panel, and one of the questions that was asked was, What is the thing that Hawkesbury needs? And there was some really useful information that came out, I think, for the Town Centres Revitalisation Group, but also for Council in particular. And they're not all things that Council needs to be jumping to provide, but they do give a really good indication, I think, of what these businesses and the people involved in them feel that they require.

Self-development was really high on the list of people's needs, but also so was networking and the ability to know what's available between different businesses so that they can lean on each other. Skills transfer and particularly youth engagement was also frequently mentioned. There was a staff member from TAFE who was quite useful, who also suggested that businesses and council should get in touch with TAFE more, in particular because they often have money to fund pilot projects and business support activities that council could act in a facilitator role with some of this funding. To hear that somebody often has money was very exciting, not something we hear ourselves very often. Access to transport was a really big deal, particularly getting kids to jobs, and that was something that was raised by Kerry Spindler from the Chamber of Commerce, who also works with Nova Employment, and that's, I think, a concern that council has had for quite some time.

It comes up every election cycle and is probably something that we need to be continually talking to the local member about as well, that lack of public transport in the Hawkesbury, or some sort of, which I think may have to be filled with community transport so that we've got kids who can get jobs, but they can't get to those jobs. And increasingly it seems that because parents are also often so busy getting themselves to their own jobs, they can't be ferrying their kids to and from work as well, and that then gets these kids into a vicious loop where they can't get initial employment or they can't retain employment, and then they become increasingly difficult to employ as time goes on. There was also a need for, there was also raised mention the use of third places, which is particularly of interest to those of us on the Town Centres Working Group.

That idea of the third place, it isn't home, it isn't work, it's a public space. The library functions heavily in that role here, but I think there's also a need for more of those third places in the Hawkesbury, and certainly businesses are telling us that that's necessary as well. For networking, for meeting with clients, and even some shared workspace or hot desk sort of space as well. So I think these are all useful things for Council to take on. It was a really quite an inspiring day. We have some fantastic, highly successful local businesses. We also have a very high percentage of people who are self-employed in quite small businesses, so that it's just them, they're sole traders, or it's a family partnership with only a couple of families.

They don't have a particularly high turnover. They're not raking in lots and lots of money, and consequently they're working extremely hard to keep themselves going. But a lot of that money stays in the local community, and that's, I think, really important for Council to support. So I think this notice of motion is a really useful inclusion.

Thank you. Any further discussion? Councillor Zamprogno.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. When notices of motion of this type come before us, I tend to see them through the lens of the larger question. I mean, this is another example of how Council feels some need to disseminate important information to various sectors of our community, ratepayers, businesses and so forth. And I think one thing we've acknowledged over the course of this term is that our reach isn't as good as it could be. And sometimes I think it's because we take a rather scattergun approach, in the sense that if we put something in the gazette, the only people that pay attention are the people that happen to come across that and then recognise that it's of interest to them. If we hold community meetings, as we are about indeed to embark upon a new series of community forums.

The people that turn up are the people who are available and sufficiently interested to turn up after what's often a busy working day. If we try to be clever and digital about this, we'll put something out on social media, and that's also scattergun, because there are a multiplicity of voices out there and council is merely one. And for us to do paid promotion, again, is like advertising. It hits some people and a lot of what we put out there is simply missed. So I return to a point that I've made many times in this chamber, and that is we should be far more proactive about curating a complete and comprehensive contact list, an emailing list, for example, of all of our ratepayers and all of our local businesses.

We seem to do a reasonably good job with community groups because there's a community register that's available through the library website. But I don't know what use we make of that list, and I suspect that the number of businesses that we hold a valid email address for within our LGA is probably as bad as the list of email addresses we have for our ratepayers, which is to say around 10%. I think we should be making a much more concerted effort to gather that data in and to be directly offering that information, because I think the information we're trying to get out there is genuinely relevant and useful and valuable to people. But the way in which we've been trying to get it out there hasn't been hitting its mark.

So I'm not suggesting that we spam people mercilessly, but I'm saying that a little bit and for their own good.

Thank you, Councillor Zamprogno. Any more discussion? No. Deputy Mayor, I invite a reply.

Thank you, Mr Mayor, and thank you for those contributions. And I agree, Councillor Zamprogno. I think that's why I brought it forward, because we do have to find a way to get that information out. And I think part of it was actually the model of this business. It made a big start, because actually getting people in smaller localised groups in their township, that starts the first part of the framework by getting them together, and then they can expand what each individual knows. In terms of us getting our information, I agree. I think it would be somewhat harder with businesses than ratepayers because often the businesser isn't the premises owner, and you'd have those sort of complications.

But I do think that it should be something that we strive to get to, to get a database of all those people and to ensure it's kept updated, because the sad thing with many small businesses is that there's often a high turnover of businesses in our smaller retail precincts in particular. I expect we'll have some level of involvement when the economic development plan is going ahead, so I gather that that's when we can perhaps present more about what, as a council body, we want to have involved in that. And I just think that this will be a start. But in terms of the event, I hope that we really support it next week and really promote it widely, because the more people that tap into something like that, it's just better all round.

And as Councillor Wheeler said, the speakers at the conference were really top-rate speakers , and there were some really—it's amazing the sorts of things you hear when you actually sit and listen to people who are telling their story of running their business in the sort of structure that they do so. So it was really good. So thank you.

Thank you, Deputy Mayor. I'll put the motion as it appears in the business paper. All those in favour, please stand.

In favour of the motion, Councillor Ross, Councillor Garrow, Councillor Reynolds, Councillor Wheeler, Deputy Mayor, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Richards, Councillor Calvert. Absent, Councillor Rasmussen and Councillor Tree

Declare it carried.

Do we have any questions about questions from the last meeting?

Deputy Mayor.

Yes, I have a question on Councillor Richards' question. In the answer on the third paragraph about the RMS liaising with the affected landowners, could we actually have confirmation that that has occurred? Because I was actually contacted by one of the subject landowners and told nobody has contacted them at all.

General Manager?

We'll make further inquiries with RMS, yes.

Any other questions on questions?

No.

Manager, there are no questions for the next meeting?

None received.

One week to go because it's a three-week gap this week.

Oh. Okay, so there are no questions?

Not at the moment. I haven't been looking, but there's another week to go.

We have no confidential matters. The General Manager would like us to stay behind for a little while. Is there any other business? If not, I'll close the meeting at 7.59. Thank you.