11 July 2023 - Ordinary

Good

Evening, everybody.

Welcome to Hawkesbury City Council's monthly meeting for the 11th of July 2023. I'm your Mayor, Sarah McMahon, and it's lovely to see the gallery so full this evening. Hawkesbury City Council acknowledges the Darug and Darkinjung people as the traditional custodians of the land of the Hawkesbury. We pay respect to all Elders, past, present and emerging, and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of the country. I'll now hand over to the General Manager. Thank you, Madam Mayor.

Members of the

Public attending the meeting are advised that in the event of an emergency, you will be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit following the guidance of our warden. I would also like to advise that in accordance with Clause 5.3.3 of the Code of Meeting Practice, meetings of the Council are recorded. In the terms of the Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, this may involve the recording of personal information provided at the time of the meeting. The recordings are made to assist staff in compiling the minutes of the meeting and to enable the podcasting of Council meetings. The provision of any information that is recorded is voluntary. If any person does not wish to be recorded, they should not address or request to address the meeting.

The recordings may be made available to other persons where such access is in accordance with the relevant regulations. The recordings are stored on Council's record management system. Meetings of the Council may be separately recorded with the prior authority of the Council. For the benefit of those persons who will be addressing the Council tonight, it is expected that you'll refrain from making any insult, allegation or personal reflection against any person, present or not, at this meeting. This request relates to both your address to Council and any answers given in response to questions from councillors. Finally, it is also requested that any person participating in the meeting or attending the meeting this evening has a mobile phone that they either turn it off or switch it to silent, please.

Thank you, Madam Mayor.

Thank you, General Manager. The next item is apologies and leave, and considering we have all councillors present this evening, we don't need to worry about that one. Do I have any councillors with a declaration of interest to read out, please?

No councillors, thank you. I'll just read out mine, which is in regards to item 4.3.1, a less than significant non-pecuniary interest. Can I please have someone confirm the minutes of the last meeting, please? Thank you, Councillor Reardon, seconded Councillor Sheather. All those in favour? Declare it carried. Acknowledgement of official visitors to Council. I do think there is former Councillor John Ross in the room. Welcome, John, and I don't think there's any other former councillors or MPs just checking. No, thank you. The next item, if you don't mind, I'd like to move a procedural motion to bring condolences forward. All those in favour of moving for condolences now, thank you. Declare that carried.

As many in our community would be aware, we did have the passing of Ted Books OAM. His full name, Henry James Ted Books. He was a former Councillor of Hawkesbury City Council from 1987 to 1999, and again from 2004 to 2008. During that time, he also held the position of Deputy Mayor at one point, not the entire time, just let me clarify for a moment. Ted was born in Pitt Town, and his entire life's passion was the Hawkesbury. He had a deep love of the Hawkesbury River, and he campaigned endlessly for flood mitigation. He was also very interested in local history, sharing rich historical stories of colonial times, of which he personally was a descendant. Ted was also for many years the Vice President of the Hawkesbury National Servicemen's Association, which he actually helped establish in 2001.

In 1998, Ted was awarded the Hawkesbury Citizen of the Year, and later in 2015, the very prestigious OAM. Ted was also given the Paul Harris Fellow from the Rotary Club of Windsor for his fundraising for charity, including cancer research. Ted's loss was felt deeply by not just the community, but of course by his loving family. Ted really did give a lot to the Hawkesbury, and I think it's very fitting that Hawkesbury City Council tonight acknowledges his passing. Were there any other councillors who wish to make some short remarks? Councillor Sheather.

Yeah, thanks, Madam Mayor. Excuse me. Ted's first time on ... Termon Councillor, I was there at the time he was there. And when you left, he had to sort of let him go, because if he grabbed you, there was always something he had on. A couple of things he did with the fundraising with Lions that you spoke of, and his passion for the Hawkesbury and certainly the river. He rode an old rowboat from Brooklyn to Windsor to raise funds. Some of the stories that he mentioned about that, because I've got quite a few friends that are water skiers, and apparently some of them wet him down a couple of times, I guess, and how he dealt with that. But he was a larrikin in his time, always playing jokes. I was involved with a few of his projects, and you had to be a bit wary of him because he would set you up.

And to talk to him, you'd be as serious as they come , until you found out about it, that was a big joke. But he was a good bloke, and the effort that he put into the community, not only the time he served on council, but other community efforts like with the Lions and Pitt Town. Him and Rex Stubbs was close with a lot of the projects. Pitt Town was a special part of his life. And his family and his friends will surely miss him.

Thank you, Councillor. Anyone else wishing to make remarks? No, thank you everybody. If you don't mind, we'll just bow our heads for a moment in silence and pay tribute to former Councillor Ted Books.

Thank you everybody. The next

Next item on the agenda is items, agenda items subject to public address. We have a range of speakers on items tonight. The first one is in relation to the Mayoral Minute, kangaroo and driver safety on the Driftway. I'll call on our first registered speaker, Anne Marks.

I'm Dr Anne Marks and I've lived in the Hawkesbury all my life. I was born at Hawkesbury Hospital and grew up in Moralia. I attended St Matthew's Primary School and went to Bede Polding College. I was married at St Monica's Church and I raised a family here. I worked at Hawkesbury Hospital as an intensive care nurse and now work at Western Sydney University as a lecturer in the School of Nursing. The Hawkesbury community is very important to me. I first became aware of the issue we are discussing tonight five years ago. As I drove to work along the Driftway, I counted four dead kangaroos that were hit by cars. It was confronting to see so many in one area and it's not something that you easily forget.

For this reason, I became a licensed wildlife volunteer. So what does a wildlife volunteer who specialises in kangaroos actually do? WIRES receives calls for injured wildlife 24 hours a day, seven days a week. When a motorist hits a kangaroo at three o'clock in the morning, I'm the one who attends. When a local resident finds a kangaroo with their leg snapped off, lying on their front lawn on Easter Sunday, I'm the one who attends. When the police are called to an accident scene and they're not sure what to do with a kangaroo, I'm the one who attends. When a mother kangaroo is killed or significantly injured requiring euthanasia, I'm the one who cares for the joey. I currently have seven orphaned joeys that require four milk feeds a day.

They will remain in my care for 12 months. I spend five hours each day looking after them. Collisions with kangaroos have substantial physical, emotional and financial implications for motorists, wildlife carers, community members, police and the vets who give care for no cost.

So why is the Driftway an area of significance? The bushland surrounding the Driftway has a high population of eastern grey kangaroos, living close to suburbia and roads with high traffic flow at high speeds of 80 kilometres an hour. Kangaroos emerge from the bushland at dusk until dawn to graze on freshly mowed grass beside the road. They cross the road to adjacent bushland and vacant paddocks via a kangaroo trail. The Wisemans Ferry branch covers a large geographical area from Yarramundi to Mount Tomah, Colo Heights, St Albans, Windsor Downs, Pitt Town and all the suburbs in between. We receive more calls for injured kangaroos on the Driftway than any other road in the Hawkesbury. Recently I attended six rescues on the Driftway in just one week.

That means six kangaroos lost their life and six motorists were at risk of losing their life. It also means that members of the community witnessed the suffering of these animals with their horrific injuries. The significant emotional trauma that people experience cannot be emphasised enough. I raised this issue with Council because I have an ethical obligation to advocate for kangaroos and for people. There is a distinct pattern to these collisions, and they could be avoided by implementing appropriate strategies.

Thank you so much, Dr Marks. Were there any questions from councillors? No. Thank you very much for your contribution. I call on the next registered speaker, Courtney Waters.

Good evening. My name is Courtney Waters. I'm here to speak on my experience of having a motor collision on this stretch of road that Dr Marks has aforementioned. So it was about two years ago now, and I hit a very large male kangaroo crossing at the area that you took a photograph at, and I actually wrote my car off and fractured my wrist. So, you know, I guess the mental and financial implications of that crash were pretty extraordinary. And yet to this day, I still am very wary of that road and more often than not do take a bit of a detour around it.

Thank you very much for your contribution. Did anyone have any questions? Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. Possibly not a question for Ms Waters, but I wondered if it's possible if we could get Dr Marks back. I was hoping that I wasn't aware of what the next speaker was going to talk about, and I didn't want to pre-empt by asking what Dr Marks has spoken about, a pattern to collision and appropriate strategies, and I was wondering if we could get someone to speak to that for us.

Given you've only spoke for a minute or two, yeah, Dr Marks, if you're willing to come up and answer that question, I'm very happy to allow that. Thank you very much for sharing your personal story with us. Deeply appreciate it.

I'll just keep it to a question, just to keep with time. Thank you. Councillor Wheeler, if you'd like to ask your question.

You mentioned appropriate strategies to deal with this pattern of behaviour that leads to collision. Could you outline for us briefly what that is?

Yeah, so it's listed in the...

So that's

The strategies that I've suggested. So speed is a huge contributor. So reducing the speed from 80 to 60 would give motorists time to then obviously possibly avoid the collision. The other things are things like wildlife, more signage. So at the moment we've got static signage. So things like flashing lights at particular high-risk times from dusk till dawn, crossings on the road or just some sort of road markings. So some sections of the driftway there isn't a particular pattern, but there are others where they distinctly cross to the bushland. So just having something to raise a little bit more awareness in that particular section would be helpful, and possibly speed humps in one particular section to try to enforce if they do reduce the speed limit down to 60.

And that's that section where it's been identified because of the distance from the light, is that right? And the fencing, the funneling

So some sections of the driftway, they're not crossing to go somewhere on the other side, but one section between Bwana Road and Castle Ray Road, there's bushland, so they're going across there to get to their next section to then go across to other areas. So in there you can see a distinct pattern of where they are, and that's when I'm called out to rescues, that's where they usually are hit, in that particular spot. And then there's another strategy called virtual fencing that we would use in other sections as well.

Could we actually hear what virtual fencing is? Because I know that there's, from what I understand from reading today, there seem to be two types of virtual fencing. One is the one that's not approved of by the RSPCA, which is used on cattle and things, which involves a collar, and then there's this other form which seems to be like a sound wall.

Yeah. So they're just posts that are placed every 25 metres on opposite sides of the road. So when a car drives along, there's a light that actually hits onto the little sensor, and it submits a sound and a light that flashes towards. So if the kangaroo is on the side of the road thinking of crossing. in front, then it actually deters them away from the road. So when we place them every 25 metres, that's been effective of keeping them off the road rather than jumping out in front of the car.

Thank you. That's really helpful.

Thank you very much. Appreciate that. I'll call on our next registered speaker, Kerry Reynolds.

I'm a resident of Bonner Road, so I'm just speaking from my perspective, from what we've experienced over the years. I've been there 29 years. Basically, we've really seen a lot of an increase in traffic and the speed, like people, the increase in speed of the traffic going up Bonner Road. And with Bonner Road, because the Kangaroos Cross there, we've had a number of hits. I mean, I'm one of the people who've had to call on Anne to come out and assist, but— It's, you're frequently hearing people , the brakes screeching and that, especially around dusk and dawn, which is when the traffic is at its peak. I think people are specifically taking a shortcut up our street for some reason to get to work, which is fine, but I think it's a 60k zone, but honestly it's like a launch pad there.

People fly up there because they're all in a hurry to get to work, I would imagine, or home. Just down at the bottom of our street is Warnock Road and Eaton Street, and that's a 50k zone. And look, our streets are probably 600 metres long, and it'd be, from my perspective, I mean, if you could just increase the 50k zone up our street as well, that might make some improvement as far as the near misses or hits of kangaroos up our street. And another thing too is we've got quite an increase in the residential area at the bottom of, around Eaton Street and Warnock Road, so you get a lot of families. So it'd be a twofold type improvement . Like even if it was a minor improvement, it'd be something, because we've got a lot of families walking up that street now in the daytime, which still we've got a lot of traffic, but I suppose, you know, at the end of the day, the risk to drivers and kangaroos up our street around dawn, dusk is quite substantial because of the amount of traffic and the speed.

There needs to be something that reduces the speed in some way. I'm all for, we're all for the speed humps, and if you could make it a 50k zone to assist with that, that would be wonderful. And that's it from me.

Thank you very much. I'll just see if there's any questions, if you don't mind. No, that's fine. Difficult

Don't worry

Councilor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Thank you for that, Kerry. Do you— Have you seen an increase in the number of kangaroos? Can you give us an idea of over what sort of time period? Is that five years, or you've lived there 29 years? Obviously there's a lot more now than there used to be.

There's probably more kangaroos, but probably substantially more traffic.

Traffic, yeah.

And I think because, I know, people seem to think it's a shortcut up that street for some reason, and honestly they fly up the street. And, like, as all the residents sort of mow across the other side of the road to help with the families that walk up the street. But again, then there's the kangaroo side of things as well, which is probably more so. And, I mean, other wildlife are impacted as well. We've had a massive goanna run over. Like, if people were going a bit slower, they might be able to avoid these things, you know. Like, they're probably not as important as people, but it is still, it's a horrific thing, you know, and also dangerous. Like, it's, you know, people could have accidents, like we've heard from Courtney.

So, but yeah, if something could be done with the traffic and, like speed humps that Anne mentioned, and maybe the 50k zone to just include that other 600 metres, it might help out with the whole kangaroo situation. Thank you. That's okay.

Thank you very much Appreciate that greatly. Okay, as this is my mayoral minute, I'll speak to the motion. First of all, I want to thank the speakers tonight for coming in and sharing your experiences with Council. I particularly want to thank Dr. Ann Marks. It has been your advocacy and your persistence to ensure that something is done, and I want to thank you. And it's been a pleasure to get to know you over the last few weeks. Your passion for this cause, and as you mentioned in your speech tonight, the fact that it's not just going to the scene, which can be horrific and traumatic, it's taking them home and, as you just said, spending five hours a day feeding orphaned joeys. That's a significant contribution to our community, so let me just thank you for that as well.

Thank you for highlighting to me this extremely important issue, and it's rightly put in the heading deliberately that it isn't just kangaroo safety, which is the trauma and the death of kangaroos which Ann is experiencing. It is the issue and the problem and the safety concerns for drivers and occupants of the vehicles as well. So the safety goes two ways, and if there's anything that Council can do to warn drivers of the potential danger in that area, to slow them down, then therefore my mayoral minute is requesting that report. Now, I'm very well aware there will be costs associated, and that's why I'm not asking councillors tonight to make any decision without knowing what the costs are.

So tonight is calling for a report to get not just the costs, but also that expert advice on what we could do to potentially Lower the amount of accidents in this area. Now, as you can see from the second picture in my Mayoral Minute, there are pink ribbons tied along the broken fences there, where there are very evident kangaroo trails. Now, I had my eyes wide open to this when I went there, and Anne pointed out to me this issue, and you can distinctly see on one side of the road the trail coming down, and it's starting on the other side of the road where they obviously have their habits of where they go, and I found that absolutely fascinating, Anne. So, and if that's where the most amount of accidents are happening, then I would look forward to Council putting in place some of these measures.

And as Dr Marks rightly said, these were strategies from her expertise that she believes would make a positive impact and reduce the accidents in the area. I therefore ask councillors to consider this Mayoral Minute, and I'll put it forward. Were there any other councillors wishing to make remarks? Councillor Kotlash.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Yes, this is a very excellent Mayoral Minute. I will support it. I'd just like, having heard Ms Reynolds talk about the other areas and the speed limits, could we just possibly change the point E to reducing speed limits at full stop, and we can just, you know, not necessarily from 80 to 60. I think we need to investigate. That whole notion that in some areas, it could even be worthwhile taking the speed limit down to 50.

I'm very happy to make that change. I

Think that's wise.

Thank you. Everything else is wonderful, and I hope we get some virtual fencing. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor.

Anyone else wishing to speak tonight? Councillors Zamprogno.

Thank you. I'd like to support the Mayoral Minute and also add my thanks to yours, Madam Mayor, to Dr Marks. Being kind to animals, I think, is almost the highest duty, and I've always taken that view because the way we treat animals is often a clear indicator as to how we will treat other human beings. And the work that you do to look after injured animals, I think, is extremely praiseworthy. I think most of us can tell a similar story. My own story involves driving out the back blocks of Mudgee as a teenager with friends in a convoy of vehicles, and the vehicle I was travelling in hit a kangaroo. The kangaroo was mortally injured but not dead. It took an hour for a constabulary from the local police station to come and euthanise the animal with his service revolver.

I'm still traumatised by that over 30 years later. And I suppose when I read this Mayoral Minute, it occurs to me that there may be other strategies that aren't encompassed. For example, I don't know how practical or wise it is to consider the relocation of animals to other national parks that we have in our area. Certainly, there's a very healthy mob of kangaroos in Skyeville National Park because I see them when I walk up there regularly. And secondly, that this only represents one particular road where the interface between our fauna and the built environment has obviously become more acute. But I'm sure many people listening in tonight could indicate other roads where kangaroos are being killed.

And I wouldn't want this Mayoral Minute to miss the opportunity to identify other sites where these kinds of measures could also be beneficial. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Veigel.

Yeah, thanks, Madam Mayor, and thanks for the motion. Thank you to the speakers, by the way. Just, I reside in Windsor Downs. We have got a 50 kilometre zone. And the interface between the park and Sanctuary Drive there, you get kills there at 50 kilometres. So just a suggestion, maybe we can reach out to the National Parks and Wildlife and maybe to protect some of that zoning as well. But I'll just leave that on just a suggestion. Thanks.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Madam Mayor, and also thank you. It's always good to hear from people from WIRES and people who, you know, work in the space of protecting our very valuable wildlife. And we should always be listening to them, of course, and taking the best actions we can to enhance that protection. I was also going to ask, just Councillor Zamprogno just briefly touched on it, but if perhaps, given that you've made it specific around the new Richmond Bridge, et cetera, whether we could identify other places along there. It won't only be the driftway. In fact, I had an incident on Saturday afternoon, probably about six o'clock, where I was driving along Castle Ray Road and a kangaroo jumped out right in front of me, just about 10 metres past the driftway.

So it was very— I know they're there. We know they're there. It's not just kangaroos, as one of the speakers said. It's also any other forms of wildlife that we have. And we have had previous requests around signage and other things that have gone onto the state government too around koalas and around other areas of the Hawkesbury. So I'm just wondering if we, while we're doing a report, whether the whole— I don't want to expand it too much so it doesn't get done, but the whole thing around signage in areas that are identified. And I think WIRES would have the number of road kill that occurs in different places so that we could perhaps incorporate a wider version of this. I know that the koala, the kangaroo issue is very bad at the moment in particular.

But I think at other times of year, when there's other breeding cycles for other wildlife, we also see the vulnerability in other parts of our LGA. So I'm just wondering if we could sort of either add a point about perhaps also including other— Other areas where we know there's high kangaroo populations. And I think that we have quite a few of those, and as we see more vegetation clearing, you know, coming out this way, we're also getting more animals, you know, that are crossing and coming into our more urbanised areas. So I'm not sure if you're happy to include that, but just to maybe expand it.

Thank you, Councillor. I'm happy to add a point four, which I've just written down: consult with WIRES regarding any other local areas of concern as a point four

Where there's an identified high number of incidents. Thank you.

Yeah, that sounds fine. I'll just make sure that was retained by the minute staff.

I'll check it when it comes up. Any other councillors wishing to speak? Councillor Sheather.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. I support your motion, but I'd just like to make a couple of points.

The speed's about the only thing that will minimise harm, both to people , cars and animals. The virtual fencing, I know people have tried it. I go out west a lot, and it certainly will scare kangaroos and other animals. Which way they run is up to them. It hasn't got arrows on it. And the other problem is appropriate fencing. We've got fencing up the highway when you go up the coast, and it needs to be that big. The fences out west a lot put up to— Keep kangaroos either in or out of properties. The big ones will go over the top; they'll clear six foot. The smaller ones won't, but if there's a way around or through it, they find it. But the other concern, and most of the councillors would have got emails more recently, is deer.

We've got them at Balmount, we've got them at East Kurrajong, at the Putty Road, Oakville, Pitt Town, and they're a big problem as well. And I only mention that, that when we look at—and I'm not suggesting we don't look at it, obviously we do, because the animals, they're not being culled in any way like they used to be in the past. They're breeding, and a lot of them, and they're going to become a nuisance to vehicles down the track. And how we deal with that, I'm not sure. So to have a further report that might cover some of those issues, I think it'd be pretty important on just how we might proceed in the future.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Wheeler. Thanks, Madam Mayor.

I have had a discussion in the last week or so with a former student of the University of Western Sydney, where looking at

Kangaroo mortality in stretches of roads has been a student project a number of times, and there's some quite useful information that has come out of that. And I wonder if you would consider including in the Mayoral Minute that— That we contact Western Sydney University and ask them for their input in what constitutes best practice, and perhaps include where it says implementing in point one, best practice, to say implementing best practice solutions, including, and then the list that you've got there, with the potential to add further recommendations, should WSU have that information, which I think they do. I've got the graduate in question, Mr Class, who is here tonight but wasn't able to register to speak because the speaker's positions were full, and another study that was published in BMC Zoology in 2019 looking at the impact, looking at what caused kangaroo mortality at this site and others.

So Mr Class's research looked at five sites: London Dairy Road, Castle Ray Road, the Driftway, Racecourse Road and Blacktown Road. And in fact, the Driftway is far and away the site of the highest kangaroo mortality. It's at least three times higher than those other sites. So it is a site of a really significant problem. The findings of this show that wildlife collisions are most likely to occur in areas with street lighting, but within 200 metres of a light pole. So one of the findings is that road lighting should be consistent across the entire length of the road to avoid channeling movement of animals into dark spots. He also raises some concerns about virtual fencing, and that appears to still be at the trial status.

And hopefully WIRES can give more information. And the funding, which I understand is still in the trial stages, will also be useful. The findings of Green Barba and Old in BMC Zoology in 2019 show, and interestingly, an influence of weather, so less accidents when it's raining. They also comment on the impacts of elimination of habitat fragmentation, that accidents are far more likely in winter, and that the way the area is fenced and the funneling of animals due to fencing and breaks in the fencing or changes of fencing type so that fencing provides easier access at particular spots really impacts on accident statistics. So I think this is information that we need to get if we're going to improve this site.

We need to channel our resources effectively. So can I suggest that we contact the University of Western Sydney and also collate the data that's already available so that what we do here works, because I think we are all sure that we would like a solution. I think what we are also seeing, and what the third speaker very clearly showed, is the impact of residential areas knocking up against areas of wildlife. And the more we increase that development, the more we fragment habitat, the more likely we are for people to intersect with wildlife and — Wildlife nearly always loses, and in some instances, including what we heard from Ms Waters, the people involved are severely affected as well. And we see WIRES unfortunately having to pick up the pieces of this over and over.

This is traumatic for everyone involved. It's also traumatic for the animals. So I think it behoves us to do something to try and resolve this as well as possible. Thanks.

Thank you, Councillor. Would you be happy with a point five stating to contact the University of Western Sydney and collate the data that is currently available to assist in this regard?

I think so, but I think that needs to happen in conjunction with point one. Could it be a sub, perhaps a sub-clause of point one?

After the first sentence.

Yes.

Yeah. Yes, that can be a sub-clause of point one. Are you happy with that wording, to contact—

Yeah, I'm happy with that wording as long as we don't limit— I understand. I

Understand, to be in conjunction with the wording in point one. That's fine.

Would it be possible to put after implementing a comma and say including, just in case we have something come up from WSU that is outside those six items raised? So

Implementing, comma, including contacting

No, no. Put the contacting after, as you suggested, put the contacting after the first sentence. Yeah. And then— In that second sentence, this report is— Oh, that second

Implementing, sorry, I

Was looking at the— Yes, just to allow that to expand if necessary.

I'll allow the minute taker to put that on. I have just been advised with these additional matters raised as well, it may take longer than two months, just being logistically looking at our staff workload. We might change the two months to as soon as

Possible. So take off in the next two months and write as soon as possible.

I'll wait for those changes to be made. Any other councillors wishing to speak on the Mayoral Minute? No,

Thank you. I'll just wait for those changes to appear on the board, but I'm pretty sure all councillors understand where we're going. I'll just ensure that we do have the wording correct before voting.

Are you happy with that, Councillor Wheeler?

Yes, certainly. It's not my intention to make this take longer. It's the intention of contacting Western Sydney Uni is actually to make it quicker and easier if the information is already there. Lovely.

Thank you, Councillor. Therefore, with no other councillors wishing to speak, I'll ask councillors all in favour of supporting the Mayoral Minute to please raise your hand. Those in favour are Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillors Zamprogno and Councillor McMahon. I thank councillors for your unanimous support. The Mayoral Minute is carried.

Okay, we now move on to our next item, item 4.3.1, Livability Project Windsor Town Centre, Stage 1 updated design, material schedule and project costings. We have six registered speakers for this item. I call on the first registered speaker, Darren Pead.

Good evening, everybody. Thanks for allowing me to come along to the Council meeting again and say a few words about the Windsor Livability Project. I just want to start off by saying what I've seen in the business paper I think is fantastic, and I think between the councillors, the council staff, and the Windsor business owners and landlords and residents, we're definitely on the right track. And it's good to see some very good progress happening. And I think, look, I along with everybody else wants to see this project implemented and completed as soon as possible. Hopefully we're still on track for a June next year completion date. The only point of the business paper that I think needs, that I don't agree—I agree with overall everything except for the furniture.

Some of the furniture that was pictured in the business paper has a modern look rather than an old antique or vintage look, like the bus shelters and some of the roofing in the structures in Thompson Square. So other than the furniture, I think everything else is fantastic. The paving along George Street in Stage 1, where we need the paving, I think it's indicated in the right spot. I'm still not sure exactly whether some of the paving that's already there that doesn't need to be replaced is going to be replaced or not, but I think there's a lot of paving in place already that can stay. But where there's not paving. So where there's bitumen and concrete, that needs to be paved. And I believe that's in the document , but I'm not exactly sure whether some of the existing paving is going to be retained or not.

So I'd just like to thank the council staff and the councillors and the general manager and the mayor for your support. I know we've been discussing this for a number of years, but I believe that the end result is going to be worth the extra— I won't say the word pain, because it hasn't—it's the progress, progress that we've made has been fantastic. And I just want to also add, since I've been speaking at these meetings, a few meetings ago I brought up the fact that the Windsor, the maintenance of the mall and the surrounding areas was lacking. But over the last at least six months, the maintenance of the mall has been dramatically improved. And I hear comments from visitors and business owners all the time that there is definitely progress.

So it's good that it's a positive outcome currently already happening. So it's not like everyone's talking about the liveability project that's still, you know, still coming, it's coming, it's coming, but there's been progress already. The maintenance around Windsor has definitely improved, and especially in the mall and the cleaning of the mall on a regular basis. So thank you to the general manager and the mayor for your support on that. And my last point I just want to make is that we're currently in the middle of the school holidays, and in my experience, I've had a business in Windsor for 18 years, and we're currently experiencing the best school holidays—and when I say best, the amount of visitors coming to Windsor on day trips, it's the most visitors we've ever had to Windsor in my experience.

And my businesses are proving that as well. It's not just a gut feeling; it's in the numbers, and it's also in the amount of people I see in Windsor. And it's not just weekends; like every weekday of the school holidays has been amazing, and Windsor is definitely booming, Windsor is thriving. There's still only one empty shop in Windsor, and that's the only reason it's empty because of the unrealistic rent. So that really shouldn't be empty, but— At the current rent level, I don't see how it's ever going to be filled. So that's proof in the pudding that every business is booming in Windsor, all the way from Thompson Square right down to this far. There's one empty shop in the mall, and there's a couple of empty shops in the bottom part of George Street.

But, you know, it just goes to show that Windsor is definitely on the right track, and this project is on the right track. So thanks again to every councillor, and we've also now got over 100 business owners, property owners, staff, residents all working together with the council to deliver the outcome that we all desire. So thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pete. Any questions, councillors? No, thank you very much.

Thank you.

And forgive me, councillors, I forgot to read out my interest in the matter, which I'll do right now. It's a less than significant non-pecuniary interest. I'd previously left the livability items when discussing it in its entirety due to my partner working from a prominent building in Richmond. As this item only relates to Windsor, there is no conflict. Thank you. I'll now call on our next registered speaker, Grant Garrish.

This is great. I'd like to start off with a thanks. Just about two-thirds of a million dollars has now been appropriated to do some splendid brick paving on the side of George Street that connects with the station. An underutilized asset is we have 238 trains entering and leaving every week. We can maximize that, and I congratulate the councillor. There are three councillors here, but I've been asked not to praise them to the skies, but they've been outstanding in being present on that north side of George Street, which adjoins the station, which is where, as time goes on, and our Asian friends show us as I live and watch them, that can be and must and will increase. So two-thirds of a million dollars—you'll see it in the top two lines of the business paper—that is the response of the councillors listening.

And then point to two other examples. I'm holding back congratulating these councillors. The old phrase, you know who you are, but there's nothing like a site visit, many times, many times, literally walking the walk. That's the facts. Consider this: we don't have a glass roof here, but it is being proposed for some areas that cover food up by the Thompson Square area. I'd like to think that when I first started here several years ago, I said, as with the City of Sydney, all this is all for free. I consider myself a protector, giving some warning that others would sooner or later, whether it's the Herald, whether it's the National Trust, sooner or later they would zoom in. The specific example which we touch lightly on: if this were a glass roof, as I live a hundred steps away, with the 300 birds, I wonder how long that would stay.

Yet still in the paper, and I know this will be corrected, the glass roofs are proposed above the eating areas in Thompson Square. The point being that when we raise these things and you listen. I do believe this is called protection in the finest way. Now, stepping up, I believe there are five reasons, has nothing to do with ego, that will show Windsor deserves what Sydney has. All of you councillors and the general manager have these information fact sheets, so this is just the lightest touch, and that is true or false. I challenge anyone. Windsor's historic George Street merits a street furniture design palette for the same reason that Sydney's most historic street has one. True or false.

Sydney's historic Macquarie Street was insistent on having its own site-specific street furniture heritage palette, and that is shown in the information that you have, the beautiful Sydney one. True or false. Sydney's Macquarie Street was one of the very first declared, when he got off the boat, I'm referring to Lachlan. But who knew this? Not even half a year later, it was Windsor's George Street. True or false. Third, of 183,000 streets in Sydney, Windsor's George Street is unsurpassed among either of the two rivals in evoking colonial character. If there is one street, therefore, true or false, where modern street furniture elements are a disrespectfully inappropriate choice , the evidence is overwhelming that's Windsor's George Street.

Australian best practices for Windsor's George Street to have its own site-specific— Furniture design palette. As we come into our final minute, and it's such a joy. You don't need to see this because the wonderful people who are deciding this do. But there's the one for the one that beat us only by six months in this whole country. That's, of course, Macquarie Street. Then we go, if I may, Canada. So many cities. Susan Templeman stops come back from back from there, so I just love this. As you know, nine million of this money is from them. Street-specific palette. You don't want to go to the Canadian cities or the French or the American ones. Just go 52 Gays down the road to Sydney's. There you go.

Underneath it, we have the modern furniture. So I say, as you can, compare the pair. I don't think I invented those words, but they're relevant. I conclude by saying I'd like to believe that all the councillors, every one of you, will say— I can't say your last names; we leave that to Sarah as I close—but that you will say, from Jill to Les, to Paul, to Danielle, to Nathan, to Mary, to Amanda, to Shane, to Eddie, to Barry, to Patrick, and of course Sarah, this can be the finest mainland—won't beat Tassie—the finest mainland historic street. You really can do it, and you deserve congratulations. I congratulate Sarah not supposed to, by being so absolutely determined. This really can happen. You can all be there at the opening day.

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr Garrish. Any questions, councillors? No. Thank you very much. I call on our next registered speaker, Anita Nogarotto.

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I'm just here just for a few minutes just to talk on behalf of the business owners in George Street Mall. So I don't know if you know or are aware that we run the modern Italian restaurant called Crica, just next to the solicitors in George Street Mall. We've been there for approximately two years now,

Just when the second pandemic finally opened up. So I'm a cooking teacher by trade. I've been teaching at TAFE for the last 15 years, and we are a family of chefs, including my husband and my two sons. My second son's currently running Crica. He's worked in the likes of Bentley, and his best friend is our pastry chef. He's worked for Tetsuya as well as Quay Restaurant. My goal is actually to have the first chef-hatted restaurant, hopefully in Windsor.

I believe you've never had, actually, I believe, a fine dining restaurant in Windsor. So, and I would like to put Windsor in the map for that reason alone. The reason why I am very proud of Windsor and actually I'm happy to see that it's now a thriving community, and I truly agree with Grant and as well as Darren, who speaks of it is finally thriving, because when I came here eight years ago, when we first saw the area looking a little bit like little Europe, having lived in Italy for 10 years. But at the same token, a little bit sad because a lot of, at the time, a lot of the businesses were still , you know, a lot of them were closed, and there was not many available when it comes to eating.

And I'm really, really am so proud to see that we now have quite a variety of choices, whether or not you want to eat on a budget or want to eat a little bit more high fine dining. So the reason why I'm here is because with the livability project, I agree for the fact that you, you know, want beautiful heritage-looking furniture and what have you. But I'd like if— Before stage two happens, because that's where our area is going to be in stage two, before that happens, I'd like a little bit more consultation with business owners, because until I've actually joined the Windsor Experience Action Group, I didn't really know much about what's going on, apart from a few discussions I've had with Bilinda Mathers.

And I would like— I understand that you want it to be a place where people can sort of sit down and be able to use a lot of these picnic areas, but Windsor really, Windsor Mall really is a business area. There is not much residential areas in business mall, in the Windsor Mall alone. So I don't really want to see too many of these furnitures , especially in front of our restaurants and especially those other restaurants. And I don't want to speak out for them, but if they do want outdoor seating, which I'm sure is an extra revenue for Council, it would be great maybe if you can discuss that with business owners to at least find out what they want in front of their businesses. And also on our side of— George Street, we don't have access to deliveries apart from the front door.

All the back doors is actually where Woolworths. It's owned by Woolworths, so we don't even have access to that. And some of you, some of the business owners who are on that side are actually here tonight, and they can probably vouch for that too. So I understand that you want to put balustrades and all kinds of things. There has been some instances when, you know, when ambulances couldn't come into the actual mall itself due for that reason alone. And I know some of the food eateries there have already got outdoor eating, but I would like to see more, aesthetic-wise, a little bit more in tune to the heritage area as well. That would be great if you can see that. Thank you so much.

Thank you very much. I'll just see if there's any questions. No, thank you, councillors. The next registered speaker tonight is Gay Kelly.

Madam Mayor, General Manager, Directors , Councillors, and the gallery. My name is Gay Kelly. I'm the Secretary of the Windsor Experience Action Group. Our group now has 120 members comprising of many businesses along George Street, Windsor. Some of them are from the Historical Society. We've got heritage consultants, we have solicitors, and we have many more professional people. What we all have in common is our passion for Windsor and its heritage. On the 4th of July, we sent a letter to Megan Ang. This was following a briefing session at Council which discussed the livability project. We thank Councillor Shane Djuric and Liz Sheather for letting us know that Ms Ang was really happy to accept our suggestions from our group regarding the style of furniture that we would like to see.

We were able to give her photos and a list of suppliers who would be all available to manufacture the items. We would like to thank the Mayor, Sarah McMahon, who sent us a lovely letter thanking us for our contribution. We were involved in choosing the colour sepia as the chosen paver brick for Stage 1. By far the greatest and most admirable form of wisdom is that needed to plan and beautify cities and human communities. Beauty perishes in life, but is immortal in art. Hence our group and the team created a magnificent mural in Baker Street. It is our plan for more of these works in the oncoming months beautifying Windsor. Bins which are traditionally ugly items need to be placed strategically in areas where there is high demand.

So, in other words, Thompson Square where the eateries are, the mall eateries and McQuade Park area. These bins can be produced by local suppliers. Our community is precious. Please do not rob our community and nation of one of its few remaining colonial assets. Let us embrace the gas lamps and the heritage-style furniture. Any additions to the township should be of context-sensitive design in keeping with the heritage aesthetic of Windsor. Bike racks and bus shelters can be produced from local suppliers. I've been in touch with the Wagga Foundry, and they can custom design if we show them what we want. I have sent them a photo of the bike racks along with the bus shelters. I also contacted Root Iron Australia and their in Clyde.

They were unable to manufacture them. However, they were really pleased to give me the names of three highly recommended metal designers who service the Hawkesbury area, who they believe would be able to manufacture both the bike racks and also the bus shelters. I visited Durham Foundry at McGraths Hill yesterday. They are able to do the grates for under the trees and also the drains. Thank you to Councillor Eddie Dokramaci for that one, for introducing our group to the foundry. Now to throw in a curveball. Look at the quote of $650,000 for the brick paving from New Street to Tebbutt Street. Although looking at the plan, I thought there were pavers going all the way from the railway right up to Fitzgerald Street, so now I'm a little bit confused.

But wow, what a huge amount of money. Have you ever considered stencilcrete? It would be far more affordable, look the same, and you will be able to do the same from the railway through to Fitzgerald Street for probably less money. It could have the same colour and just looking like the pavers as well. The way it would look now with the pavers is higgledy-piggledy pavers and then bitumen, then back to paving again. Not a good look. I have decided today to speak against tonight as I feel that far more should have been accomplished since the council resolution in April. However, when Wendy and I met with the general manager and Megan, we were thrilled to hear Megan saying that the funding body does not want to give the money back.

We believe we should now be moving forward, working together as a team and providing one of the most exciting projects that Windsor will ever see. So we'd like to thank you all and welcome to our team. Windsor Experience is a great group. It's probably—I've worked in the community now for 49 years, and this is the most exciting thing that has ever happened in Windsor. So thank you all.

Thank you very much. Any questions, Councillors? No. Thank you, Mrs Kelly. I now call on our next registered speaker, Ben Woodbury.

Good evening all. My name is Ben Woodbury, and I come to speak tonight as a concerned Windsor resident, small business owner, and as a member of the Windsor Experience Action Group. My family have been Windsor residents and business owners dating back right to Richard Woodbury, our convict ancestor. Whilst we've worked hard to mend our ways, we do pay for our alcohol now, sorry Richard. However, every now and then we slip up, and I've been told I wasn't allowed to speak at Council, so I've rearranged what I wanted to say, and hopefully I'll get the same point across. Is it just me, or does this feel like the same crap, different day? I've been over the new design proposal, and to say I'm alarmed would be an understatement.

What's changed other than the bricks? Some said last time I was here that these are just an artist's impression and not the final design. However, we saw what was proposed on the paper for South Windsor, which is in situation now, and quite frankly, I'm terrified of what's going to end up for the rest of Windsor. A large representation of the community have proposed a list of recommendations, including bus shelters, bins, bike racks, furniture sourced from Australian and in particular local businesses. We're also offering our assistance with recommendations on placement whilst we're running small businesses. For example, there is no bin anywhere near the new bus shelter that is planned opposite the council chambers, and there is, I think, one bin on the plan from council chambers until Kmart, where there are six bins from memory.

Also, one of the biggest issues we've had with feedback from tourists and visitors alike is, and I quote, whether Bligh Hill is the toilet. Let's jump to the other side of the mall up to Thompson Square, Windsor's Eat Street. Not a single bin proposed, no public toilet. It's extremely unreasonable of you to expect the pub or us other small business owners to allow random visitors asking to use our bathrooms. Again, on the latest plan, the modern pots and, I quote, lightweight shade structure, which seems to be made of perspex glass, so the word shade is not what springs to mind.

This is what's proposed to the only intact 18th century Georgian square in the country. Andrew Thompson would be rolling in his grave. I'm actually lost for words. This plan is by the work of amateurs who clearly do not live and breathe this town as passionately as we do and understand the importance of maintaining our heritage. We were promised a plan that would revitalise the town sympathetic with its heritage. You've all eaten at McDonald's, right? Been through the drive-through even. When you order that juicy McPounder burger off the screen, you can be sure as hell you want just that. And by chance, if it's hit the floor or somewhere in the production somebody sat on it, you can bet you're also going to be driving back through that drive-through and returning the burger.

Well, this is your community returning the burger. We are not happy with your designs. We have told you over and over. You told us firstly we were running out of time. We know that this is now not the case. We've all seen the budget and can do the math and know that money isn't issue either. Our suggestions have, in some cases, helped by not replacing all the bricks, saved money. So what is it then? Are you sick of hearing about it? Well, so are we. If the Heritage Committee have approved the design of Windsor, then we have absolutely no confidence in this design. They approve what is the most unsympathetically designed museum building I have ever seen. There is nothing about this museum exterior that speaks to the softness of the heritage of our unique town.

But not to dwell in the past, but to focus positively moving forward together in what seems like the first time in a long time where we have business owners, ratepayers, landlords, tenants and councillors linking arms, putting our political differences and grudges aside to work together for a better future. Let me leave you with one final metaphor. Imagine this design we're finalising is a tattoo, permanent, visible and forever open to public scrutiny. Then let's collectively work together to ensure every detail of this tattoo we're putting on our town, from the bins to the bike racks, to the bus shelters, to the furniture. Every little detail isn't overlooked, regardless of how tired we are of the project now.

Believe you me, we will never tire from the fulfilment, the pride that will come with the completion of a well-planned, well-designed and executed project. So let's keep this in the forefront of our minds as we go about tattooing this town.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr Woodbury. Any questions, councillors? No, thank you very much for your contribution. The next registered speaker is John Ross.

Thank you, Mayor, councillors. Pardon me. It's good that I follow Mr Woodbury.

What he indicated, I support. And it is quite clear that there is a cultural problem and a dysfunction problem within the council administration and management.

It was pointed out to you in April. At

The April meeting, quite clearly the community were not happy and were acting in response, despite the dulcet tones of one of our speakers tonight. The situation is, as Mr Woodbury pointed out, unchanged. In fact, it is even more grave from the point of view of Thompson Square.

Despite the statement made in the business paper regarding Thompson Square, that matter was not in purview, subject at the April 18 meeting of this council.

What has happened in the business paper and what is being cast in the business paper is nothing short of a falsehood.

And I deplore that. The consideration being given to Thompson Square is inappropriate, and even at this stage, it must be subject to proper consultation, with proper understanding of what is actually intended and not some hypothetical thing, as is stated in the business paper, and, Oh, it's been cleared by the heritage office. I couldn't care if it's been cleared by anybody. Well, nobody. The community has an entitlement to understand what is being proposed before the heritage office even got their hands near it. And what's happened? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Now, for a state-listed heritage item as this is, and one of the most important locations within this area. This is just simply untenable.

Mr. Woodbury is correct. It's a demonstrable failure, and it must be corrected, please. And this council tonight has the opportunity to do so. I totally agree also with all the comments regarding furniture and so on. Just look at South Windsor and the work that's been done there. It is appalling, some of that stuff, and likewise in Richmond. And then we talk about what we've achieved. Goodness me, if somebody had gone out with a busted camera and walked into the main street of Richmond and taken a photograph and said, This is the sepia brick,

The matter would have been over and done with in about five minutes. And instead of that, it's gone on. There's been all sorts of public— Uplands and uprisings and confusion. Council can't even put a sepia colour on a computer document or a submission or these things, and then we see something in the way of a council business paper, and there are sepia, probably tiles, not bricks, and there's a grey concrete periphery . What in the name is that all about? That's not in Richmond. That wasn't suggested as being subject to the consultation or the voting.

Just absolutely ridiculous, and it's unfortunate that we can't get our act together. Getting our act together also means that this project ought not to be being administered by the planning department. This is an infrastructure project. The maps that we've been given tonight are wrong. Totally wrong. They are not up to date. They haven't been brought up to date. There is a blessed roundabout down in the corner of Brabham Street and George Street, right near the station. A stupid piece of infrastructure. Councillor, I'm going to call you

To order there. You were reminded .

The most unfortunate piece of infrastructure. Sorry, I'm

Just speaking. You were reminded at the start of the meeting not to cast any insults towards anyone present in the room, so I'll ask you to stop doing that, please.

Thank you very much. An inappropriate structure there. There also, there is a traffic calming device up in the vicinity of Tate's Hotel and the public school, which is not even on the original maps, and that goodness knows how many years has that been sitting there. It doesn't even mention a spot on any of the drawings. The drawings themselves are not accurate. The whole thing is just a complete mess. This consultant , I'm afraid, is not up to scratch either. Please give us some consultation of a proper order, and let the public take due regard for that, and you give the public due regard, because it is just a continuation of the situation Mr. Woodbury has spoken of.

Thank you, Councillor . Your time has expired. Thank you. Sorry, John Ross. Okay,

Thank you. That's all of the registered speakers for this evening. Would anyone like to move something? Councillor Sheather

Thanks, Madam Mayor. Madam Mayor, I move the recommendation, and with a question. After speaking with you today, you indicated there might be a clarification in relation to the plans, the materials and scheduling of the project, and I'd like to hear the staff's comments on— Thank you,

Councillor. I'll refer that to the Director of City Planning

Thank you. Through you, Madam Mayor. That's correct. So certainly in the material schedule that's been provided to the report, the shade structures and their indicative powder coating stand as to be installed as proposed. Where there is flexibility, though, is in terms of some of the prospective selection of seating to be placed throughout stage one of the project. Certainly take on point Ms Kelly's— spoke to tonight in terms of some additional options being raised. There is flexibility in terms of the types of seating as well as the locations, which wouldn't actually be determined until further consultation had been undertaken with property and business owners with regards to their placement.

But to determine a preferred option, staff could certainly facilitate a poll or something similar to what was undertaken for community engagement to determine a preferred brick paving colour option, should so Council choose to pursue that. Councillor. I'll speak

Briefly on it. I just need you to

Move something, Councillor, so I can get a seconder. Move the recommendation

As is. I will just

Speak on it, but

Expect some changes. I'll need

A seconder for that, please.

Thank you, Councillor Reardon. Thank you, Councillor. Yeah, Madam Mayor, we had a briefing about this, and there was a view that the councillors had a briefing, and we chucked some stuff around, including photographs and the like

And my comment in relation to what was proposed opposite Thompson Square, is that other options. And at the time we were talking about Louvre glass on the roof, which didn't fuss me at all anyway then, and what's before us now does less for me. We also spoke about the opportunity for different groups to offer ideas and suggestions. None of that's reported in the business paper, and the copying of — The documents, there's one change in all of them, and that the only one that's there, the only change is a photograph on the last page at opposite Thompson Square, where we went from Liverpool windows to the proposal that's there. Now, I indicated some time ago, a long time ago, and even before I was on council, that I wasn't happy with any of these projects, South Windsor, Richmond or here, and my view hasn't changed.

And the different groups that are involved in Windsor, the business groups, and there's three that's active all the time, I've kept in contact with them, asked them to address particular issues without offering a particular view of mine, and they probably knew it , so that I could get a reasonable balance on what the community expected. The last two speakers that spoke spoke with passion, and I suppose some frustration over the last 18 months where we've gone with this. And Windsor's worth more than that. And when you go into Thompson Square, the three or four seats up the top have got cast iron ends on them. Not a big deal. They're cast iron end seats . And we've, as a community, come to expect that, I expect, and as councillors we are given this livability.

Stuff out of Liverpool, Parramatta, wherever the hell it is . And it's irritating, and I mean big time irritating. We are not Liverpool. We are not Penrith or Parramatta or anywhere else. One of the speakers spoke about George Street. One year after George Street was made in Sydney, so was Windsor . And we're selling it short. And with the information that's come from the groups that I've spoken to, and there was one only had a meeting last night, and I asked them to have a look at what the report to Council, and could they give me an opinion this morning. And I spoke to three of them , and all of them come up with the same view. And some of them have sent photographs, most of the councillors have got them, and the staff and the likes, and it's nothing, not within the same era of what's being proposed.

I expect, and the community that I'm speaking on behalf of expect a better job, and that when we talk about upgrading Windsor , we can have new stuff. We're not going to get 200-year-old seats, and no one expects that. But there's a character in Windsor that we want preserved , and none of what we're providing does so . And like, with not ripping up the mall , if we rip it up, we're going to change it . It'll be up to the standards of today and all the rest of it. Well, the standards there have been there for 210, 220 years, and we're happy with that. And to do what we've done to Richmond and South Windsor, they're a little bit different. But George Street and the mall, and the area between the railway station and the like, and when we spoke about it last month, we were keen to get on with it.

You and I and the planner and general manager spent some time to go through, so I thought it was fairly clarified. And I said, if they're too hard, let us know so we can move on with it. There's none of that in here. So the effort that I felt that I put in with the council is pretty fruitless.

Councillor, I will just remind you your time has expired. If you wanted to move something else, though, or

You wanted to

Listen to debate— No, I'll listen to the other speakers, thank you.

Thank you, Councillor. Anyone else wishing to speak on this item, please?

Councillor Wheeler. Thanks, Madam Mayor. Can I just clarify a couple of things? We had mentioned from one of the speakers about ambulance access and the use of bollards in that section of the mall. Is my understanding is that the bollards are removable to allow emergency services access. Is that correct ? Director of City Planning. I'll

Refer to the Acting Manager, City Design, Economic Development.

Thank you. Through you, Madam Mayor, the bollards will be removable for access for emergency vehicles.

Thank you. I presume that that's for emergency vehicles only, and that doesn't allow them to be removed to facilitate deliveries for the businesses in the mall, and that hence the use of the loading zones at either end, which I think we determined last year or the year before, perhaps. Acting Manager, City Design and Economic Development.

Thank you through you, Madam Mayor. Yes, that is correct. It is a pedestrian mall. There is, at the moment, loading deliveries that can be made through certain times of the day. But the deliveries during the main peak times of the mall are to use the loading zones.

Thank you. And a question regarding the bins. Are the bins that we see in this plan, are they the final resting places of those bins, or are we likely to have more bins at different spots? Director City Planning.

Sorry, through you, Madam Mayor. Look, that's certainly up for negotiation. They are indicative , and in a similar manner in which bin placement and seating placement was undertaken in adopting the learnings from Richmond and South Windsor, we'd certainly be engaging with residents and business owners to determine the optimum location.

Thank you, because I think we've got some suggestions this evening of places that bins should go.

Thanks. I'll pause there, Madam Mayor . That's all the questions I've got. Thank you, Councillor. Anyone else wishing to speak on the item?

Thank you, Councillor Durick

The feedback I'm getting from the community on Stage 1 of the project is one of continued concern. The community's sentiment is that everything being added north of the train station should be of a Georgian or a Victorian styling, which is distinctly sympathetic to the historic feel of Windsor. This would allow for a seamless flow through from the station to Thompson Square. However, the furnishings thus far proposed are being regarded as being a stark contrast to a historical precinct, with bins, seats, bike racks and shelter all appearing modern. The community view is that every piece of modern furnishing eats at our passion for preserving history like a cancer. Every shiny stainless piece erodes Windsor's opportunity to exploit its history for tourism.

There are even very concerned heritage experts offering their time to help Council appropriately deliver for Windsor, and we need to make sure that we fight to preserve Windsor's charm, and we've had ample time to get it right . Even at a meeting of November 22 last year, the Chamber resolved to investigate wrought iron bike racks that were sympathetic to the historical feel of Windsor, and subsequently an example from Michigan was offered, yet last week the bike racks that were offered were a great disappointment to the community. On Monday morning, I walked into a local metal fabricator in Windsor with the picture from Michigan and asked if he could manufacture these, which he replied, Of course.

There would be hundreds upon hundreds of fabricators in the Sydney Basin all equipped with the ability to deliver vintage-style bike racks, so long as there was an appetite by council to deliver in line with greater community sentiment. Further concern is of the modern shelter proposed for Thompson Square with the glass roof. With people explaining that with piles of bird dung mounting on the glass roof, it would surely fix the need for wanting somewhere to sit for eating . If historic precincts around the planet can get it right, then I'm sure we can too .

Thanks. Thank you, Councillor. I do remind councillors that listening to your comments, there's obviously issues you've raised, but we still are debating the recommendation as moved and seconded as per the business paper, unless anyone makes any amendments. Any other councillors wishing to speak tonight?

Councillor Wheeler. Councillor Djuric, I'll just ask you to turn your mic off. Thanks. Thanks, Madam Mayor. The idea that we were shown for the shade area in Thompson Square at the briefing, I think, was a timber louvre that was adjustable. My concern with the glass that's been proposed, firstly, I certainly appreciate the point about the bird droppings, and that may fix my next concern about the glass, in that the glass will provide shelter from the rain, but it won't provide shade. It's hotter for far longer than it is wet, if we discount the years 2020 to 2022, where it seemed to rain all the time. But I think we have to provide some sort of shade structure that actually does that, that provides shade, and I don't think that the glass fits that bill.

I understand, and I think, I don't know that we are going to resolve the issues around this mall until we resolve the difference , the idea that when you put items into a heritage precinct, you don't recreate heritage . And this seems to be where we're butting up. Now, that isn't necessarily Council's opinion. It's, you know, it's not a heritage opinion that I'm a great fan of either, but it is the current heritage teaching and ruling across Australia, governed by the Burra Charter. And Council, because that is the position of both the federal and state governments, Council is bound by the teachings of the Burra Charter, which is to have unobtrusive— Inclusions into heritage spaces, rather than faking it, for want of a better word.

We may not like it. It may not be what has happened before, but it is what the Heritage Office will sign off on. Now, I think we have to be aware that if we are going to keep going back to the Heritage Office and to the funding body, that we are going to butt heads over this matter. And we now have a tension between what the community wants, or what the community representatives who've approached us want, and what we will be allowed to do in this space. We are also in grave danger, I think, of designing a camel, because we have picked and unpicked this so many times. And I think we are now at a make or break point where I'm beginning to lose some hope and confidence in this process. I've had a number of people contact me, people who were very supportive of this project in its previous iterations, who gave a lot of time and effort to those processes, who are now actually quite insulted by things that have been said, misrepresentations that have been made about them and about their efforts, and frankly the rubbishing of their, or what they believe to be the rubbishing of their input.

And I think that's very sad, because when you do that to members of the public, they are unlikely to re-engage and give their time and energy to council for these projects. We need to be quite cautious, I think, in how we proceed here.

The shade structures I don't think are fit for purpose, because I don't think they provide shade, and I would like to see those reviewed.

I also want to correct a couple of things that have been said, and the main one is that the heritage committee, the current heritage committee approved this and the museum. The heritage committee did not approve the museum. The current heritage committee has barely had the opportunity to meet. I think it has met once. It has not been involved in the recent iterations of this project, and it should not be said to have taken on or approved any of this work, nor should it be criticised for the input that it's had.

With regard to the toilets, I think this is a grave omission of this project. I raised it at the time. I raised it subsequently. I even provided a solution that the previous council wasn't willing to consider. We haven't increased the number or the accessibility of public toilets in Windsor, and I think that is a great shame. We know it's an issue. We know it has been an issue for quite some time, and I think it's a shame that we haven't addressed that.

Thompson Square is the only 18th century square left in the country. Unfortunately, it's no longer intact. It has a dirty great bridge through the guts of it, and some of the very people who are so keen to cling to the heritage notions proposed now are the same people who were quite happy to see that project go ahead. Councillor, your time has expired. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak this evening? Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Thank you,

Madam Mayor. I'm happy to support the motion. I think, just to clarify, if I can just get this straight, the things that are still subject to design and potential change are the bins, furniture and the bike racks. Is that correct? Director of City Planning.

Through you, Madam Mayor, yes, that's correct.

So they are definitely not, you know, finalised, and they will be subject to further consultation and further design, is my understanding of that. What about the shade structures? Because I also share very big concerns, which is why I sent the list of questions around the shade structures today around the glass roofing. Is that—I don't understand why we were given a photo with timber louvred roof as the example at a briefing, and then now it's suddenly glass. And I did ask some questions, but I don't think I got an answer as to why that's glass. I understand why there's, you know, why the umbrellas are unsuitable, the shade sails, but I don't understand why the timber louvred one that we were shown would be unsuitable.

Director of City Planning. Sure.

Thank you. Through you, Madam Mayor, at the time of the briefing, the place design group—or sorry, the designers—weren't actually able to issue us with an example because the proposal, the proposed shade structures are actually being custom made. As you'll note in the business papers, we don't have an example even of the colours that they're proposed to actually be constructed in as such. Hence the stainless steel showing the night sky powder coating. Staff have indicated that in order to meet the deliverability of those shade structures, that we've been advised that there will be a wait time on ordering those, and hence the recommendation in the business paper is to adopt stage one, including those shade structures, but obviously that's subject to Council resolution and therefore before the Council for determination tonight.

Would there be an opportunity to revisit that specific part, or is that going to— I mean, I don't want to delay it any more, but I just really cannot see the issues around having a glass roof in that location.

Through you, Madam Mayor, look, certainly should Council resolve to do so, as has been with previous resolutions of Council, staff could certainly investigate options. Thank

You. I'm not sure if the mover is going to be looking at changing some things, but that would be one thing that I would rather see the timber option go ahead if that was possible. I'll just speak briefly to the motion before it's changed anyway, and, you know, thank the speakers, of course, with their passion. I do understand that, but I do again reiterate that this is a liveability project, and it is about changing a few things, revitalising a few parts of our cityscape so that we update and revitalise. I've got really big concerns that once we've got the paving done in the areas north and south of the mall, that it's really going to emphasise the old paving, the very uneven and old paving in the mall, and be a stark contrast.

If anybody's been to Toowoomba recently and seen their revitalisation, it's also a heritage-style town, and it has done exactly this sort of thing: put in new paving, put in some trees, and changed around a few things. It hasn't changed the streetscape at all, but it's given it the lift that brings it just into looking clean, inviting and liveable, which is what our aim and what the objective of this project is. The fact that there's still being, you know, open to have the furniture and everything like that decided upon, and of course I support that being in the, you know, fitting within the buildings and the streetscape that exists in Windsor, which is very precious, of course. What I'd like to see is to see our buildings really showcased and opened up so that people can enjoy those, because they are the actual heritage there, the older buildings, and the mall hasn't been there for 220 years.

The street underneath it may have been there, but not the street, even the ground underneath it. But I think that when we look at this, we've got to move it forward because we do want to see some things happening. And I'm happy to support it. That's my one area of concern. I'll see if that's addressed during any changes that I hear are being proposed and maybe speak on that after. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Sheather, you have spoken, but I'm happy to hear if you wanted to make a recommendation or an amendment to the recommendation.

Yeah, I'd like to make an amendment to the motion I've put forward, and it would read: that Council endorse Georgina and Victorian-style furniture and the paving colours, stage one of the Liveability Project, Windsor Town Centre, to allow the project to progress to the tender stage.

So I might just work with you on this, Councillor. So you're happy with point one? Let's just work this out to get it right. Leave point one as is.

Whereabouts have you got point one?

Oh, sorry, sorry. I've written my own points, so I'm talking about my own possible amendments. The recommendation as it is, make that point one, right? And then you've made some extra suggestions that could be point two.

What I'm changing is the recommendation. Can you read it

Out louder for us, please, Councillor?

That Council endorse Georgina and Victorian-style furniture,

And then it goes on to say, and paving colour for stage one in the Liveability Project, and the rest of the sentence.

Okay, so cross out the words updated design plans, materials schedule. Yep

Just to clarify, we're not changing the paving colour. It's as per the community poll. Yeah, as per the community poll.

So I'll ask the general manager just to— Sorry.

Yeah, I'll ask the general manager just for input. I think it's important we get this right, everybody, so I want everyone to be on the same page.

Sorry, through you, Madam Mayor. Councillor Sheather, your proposed amendment is that Council endorses Victorian-style furniture and the paving colour, but the paving colour is part of the updated design plans, yeah? Yeah. So what I'm saying is that extra amendment of yours would be moot. So what you're really suggesting is that Stage 1 be amended to include Victorian-style furniture.

Georgian style or Victorian, which one? Georgian.

It's a crossover period, Georgian and Victorian. Is that period that Windsor was formed.

Can we say heritage sympathetic?

Well, sorry, it's the councillors that need to make this, import, councillors. Sorry, that's the code of meeting practice. You do need to assist councillors in trying to get a resolution that we can all decide upon, please.

If I may, Madam Mayor, Georgian and Victorian-style furniture is pretty succinct type of cast iron lacing that would suit Windsor. It's that crossover period that Windsor was formed. If you look up antique Georgian furniture, it all has that lace surround the furniture and stuff like that. Okay,

What I need the mover to do is give us the exact words. See if the seconder is happy, that becomes the motion, and if there's an amendment then we go from there. So, Councillor Sheather, I just want to confirm what you're putting forward. I'll see if we can get it typed up. I think the minute secretary just needs assistance to get it right.

All hands on deck.

We'll just wait, councillors, until we get this wording on so that we can make sure it's correct.

What I might just ascertain in the meantime, if you don't mind, is a question to the Director of City Planning. Did you want to confirm the situation regarding the seating, that there would be the potential for a community poll, as there was with the choosing of the brick colour? Yeah,

Thank you. Through you, Madam Mayor. Staff did receive a number of communications from various community members, including representatives from Windsor Experience Group, just previous to this meeting. What was provided in response to the information that was forwarded was that, in accordance with Council's resolution, the only consultation that was being undertaken was to determine the preferred brick paving colour option. But certainly people were invited to come along and present the information tonight , which they have done. Following this meeting, just to ensure that the whole community has an opportunity to have a comment on proposed alternate furniture, should Council resolve to do so, we can certainly select a range of options and run a community poll to seek a preferred furniture option prior to determining what should be installed throughout stages one and two of the liveability project.

Thank you. And just to confirm, if that was the method we did, that doesn't need to be part of the resolution?

No, that's certainly something we could undertake. The furniture is not fixed, so there is that flexibility.

Thank you very much, and I hope everyone heard that. There's an opportunity to have a community poll with options presented regarding the seating for stage one.

Can I ask a related question, Madam Mayor?

Oh, thank you. Yes, Councillor Conolly.

I'm just a bit confused trying to follow on here. I didn't think there was any furniture that was part of stage one. I thought we were funding furniture ourselves later, but stage one was the works under the liveability program.

I'll just get confirmation, Councillor, Director of City Planning. Yeah,

Thank you. Through you, Madam Mayor. There is some seating that's proposed to be in place throughout stage one. There will also be bins as well. There may be some indicative locations, but these would be subject to further engagement with residents and business owners. Okay,

Thank you.

Thank you. I do just want to reiterate that, with the— first of all, Councillor Sheather has amended his motion. I need to ensure that the seconder, Councillor Reardon, is happy with that. Yes, I'm happy with that. Thank you, Councillor Reardon. The motion on the board becomes the motion we are debating.

Madam Mayor, I was deleting the updated design plans with the words Georgian Victorian style furniture, and then following on with the rest of it, because none of the design plans in there is what we're talking about. With the— in relation to— and I put furniture, because there is furniture. There's seating and stuff down, and the staff has indicated already that they're going to head down that process. The concern that I have in relation to this is the glass structure opposite Thompson Square that— I don't know. When we spoke about, and I did ask about opportunities to look at different options, we haven't got that. I don't know what opportunity that we may have to view others, but obviously councillors who support maybe a different process than I do don't like it either.

Councillor, I might just stop you there to say we have to include the words— but there's still flexibility— but we have to include the words updated design plans, whatever we want those plans to be. We have to accept a plan tonight. I do want to reiterate that— Where we are right now, we have moved significantly from where we were before. We are almost at a point of getting this through. And I want to reconfirm for everyone listening, we are not discussing the mall tonight. Please understand that. We are not discussing the mall. We are discussing stage one. Stage one is from the station up to the start of the mall and Thompson Square. Based on what you've just said, Councillor, the only outstanding issue, therefore, would be the shade structure on Thompson Square.

Based on what's on the board, because we need to move on with this, based on what's on the board, you're happy with what's on the board, but for the question mark over the shade structure.

Excuse me. There's bus shelters in parts of stage one as well and seating arrangements.

But you've said Georgian Victorian style furniture, so that word furniture encompasses that.

Yes, it does.

Correct. So therefore the only issue we need to clarify now, to come to some sort of wording that we can vote on is the shade structure. I did want to just ask a question to the Director of City Planning. Based on the councillors are saying that we were presented with one design at the briefing and another one now in the business paper, is there an opportunity to what you're doing with the seating also allow for some options to be considered in a poll for the shade structure?

Thank you. Councillor Rossi, of all people, should know the code of meeting practice, so please allow the councillors— Councillor Ross, that's enough from you, please. You know better. Follow the rules. Yeah,

Thank you. Through you, Madam Mayor.

Former Councillor Ross, I am serious, that is enough from you. I'll ask you to leave the chamber. Respect the place that we are in and the decisions we are making.

Council can certainly resolve for any component of the project to be revisited. The complexity with the shade structures in Thompson Square is that the timing in terms of getting any shade structure produced is quite critical, as well as the staging of the installation of those whilst paving is undertaken. So, to your question, I will probably need to take on notice in terms of what the options could be, and also note that those particular structures have been approved by Heritage New South Wales, so a change to those structures may incur further Heritage New South Wales approval. But unfortunately, I wouldn't be able to give further clarity as to what the possible flexibility might be at this time.

General manager, would you just make a comment? If I might, thank you, Madam Mayor. I think there's probably—to answer the question, is it something that we would consult the community about by way of a poll? I think the answer is no on that. What I would suggest, that if Council would like to give us—we've heard from Councillors Lounds-Buckett and Wheeler about concerns about the lack of shade, for example, and that if there was a direction given by the Council to request the staff to investigate further alternative options for those structures, and tell us what your performance objective is there, okay? So if it's to provide a greater shade, absolutely, that's at our end not a big deal whatsoever.

If, however, we are looking at a significant redesign, for example, of those structures, then we're probably in a different space where it may require a greater and more considered degree of community consultation, for example. So I guess my answer to that is a light-touch amendment, if Council was to tell us what your objective is, is possible. Anything much more than that is going to be a challenge.

Thank you, General Manager, for that clarification. Councillor Sheather, just to try and— Mind finish off getting the wording correct on this motion. Would you be happy for something along the lines of asking staff to investigate further designs for shade structures in Thompson Square? If your objective, as per the general manager's comments, was for shade.

We need to get this right, so we've got a shot tonight.

Yeah. Yes.

Yes, okay. Well, let's get that wording up so we can have a look at it, and then you can let me know if you're happy and the seconder's happy, and then we can decide on what to do from there. I just want to, while we're waiting on that, make a couple of different comments as well. Like I touched on a moment ago, we've come a long way. While I reiterate this has nothing to do with stage two, stage two will come back to Council again. So rest assured, those listening in the gallery or online at home, stage two will come back with its own plans. We have heard you loudly and clearly about the flaws that you may see in the current design, but I do reiterate they are high level. You've heard from the staff tonight that there will be that poll undertaken regarding the seating.

There has been the addition to the recommendation, as you can see on the screen, regarding the style of furniture, and I thank the councillors for that. But we are at a point where we do need to move on with stage one. Let me confirm stage one. We have to get on with the job of it. We have made significant changes after listening to the community in regards to the whole project in Windsor. That includes retaining the gas lamps as gas. That includes retaining the pavers. That includes removing the plane trees. That includes, in stage one, which we are discussing tonight, the additional $650,000 spend on the pavers where the bitumen is on the other side of the road and then matching it. We have made up significant ground, and I don't want that to get lost tonight in a couple of different issues which we are trying to resolve.

But please remember, we have come a long way, and let's just try and finish this off nicely so that we can get on with the job of delivering for Windsor. There has been some changes to the wording, Councillor Sheather and Councillor Reardon, if you'd please like to look at that wording and confirm you're happy.

We'll see if we can increase the font.

Someone may wish to read it out to anyone who has trouble seeing it from their place I'll read out as per the board. The Council endorses the updated design plans, material schedule and paving colour for Stage 1 of the Livability Project, Windsor Town Centre, to allow for the project to progress to tender stage with the following amendments: A, to include Georgian slash Victorian style furniture; B, investigate alternative designs for the shade structures adjacent to Thompson Square to provide improved shade. I'll just make sure Councillor Sheather, as the mover, is happy with that.

Yes, Madam Mayor.

Thank you. Councillor Reardon as the seconder. Thank you.

Yes.

I know many councillors may have spoken, but if there was any comments, which very short comments wishing to be raised regarding the change, I'm happy to take them. Councillor Kotlash.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I would request that we vote in seriatim on this one. So the reason being is that I can't support A, that we include Georgian and Victorian style furniture. I agree with Councillor Wheeler's comments on the borough charter and the fact that what we're doing in Windsor Mall is we're including structures that help livability, and the structures that we're including are for things that are modern activities. There probably was some outdoor dining back in the day, but putting

Your bike on a bike rack is a kind of a modern thing to do. We need to

I will confirm to the gallery that the councillor has the entitlement to be heard in silence, and that is a respectful way we will contain ourselves in this chamber. Thank you. Sorry

I've lost my train of thought. We have to, I think we have to come to grips with the fact that parts of Windsor, some parts of Windsor are modern, some are old, and I cherish those old, that old feeling and that old ambience. I appreciate that, and I know that people are really keen to preserve that. But if we start to add things that enhance livability, we have to make sure that we don't end up with something that looks a bit cheesy. And I really don't agree that we should pick that style. I think what we should say is that anything we add is sympathetic to the heritage of that area. I've been to places where this has been done really well, and, you know, sometimes you can come across something and it is quite modern and functional and possibly even made out of stainless steel.

But the way that it's done and the way that it's designed really lends itself to areas of heritage. It's hard to do, and it's a real design skill, but I think we can do that, and I think that's where we have to head. We can't be stuck in that groove . We're responsible for moving forward as well. So I wouldn't vote for that particular point in the item, but I'm happy to support the other parts. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor. Anyone else wishing to speak? If you've made a comment, just a brief one, Councillor Wheeler. Thanks, Madam Mayor, and just briefly, I think...

I think we have to be clear on what actually constitutes the Victorian and Georgian style that's appropriate to Windsor. Windsor is not a frilly town. Windsor is not a high Victorian town. And often I think the interpretation of Victorian style is that very curly, ornate Victorian style. Georgian style is incredibly austere. It's very plain. The Victorian era that Windsor was born in is also quite plain and not very frilly either. The part of Stage 1 that occurs within Thompson Square is bound by the Thompson Square Conservation Management Plan. This is a state heritage listed site, and whatever we do in that space needs to be mindful of that conservation management plan. I would much prefer a reference to the conservation management plan appearing in point A than this grab-bag Victorian, Georgian style furniture that I'm not even sure everybody understands what that means.

I don't know what it means. I live in a Georgian house. I own a Victorian house. Yeah, and I don't know what that grab bag means. I would say to you that, frankly, from a heritage perspective, that is not meaningful , and that we should be deferring to our own conservation management plan for Thompson Square. Thank you, Councillor. If that's all the councillors wishing to speak tonight, I take on board Councillor Kotlash's desire to vote in seriatim. That's fine. I do wish to reiterate again that the point A regarding the style of furniture, the seating will be, as staff have confirmed, go out to an online poll with a range of options that Council will choose for the community to have input in.

So I confirm that that will be the case for the seating. And based on Part B regarding the shade structures, that seems to be something that the staff can work towards. I do wish to confirm that we do just need to proceed tonight. I'm happy with those amendments. I think that gives everyone an opportunity for the community to understand where we're heading and, of course, for the staff to do the job that they're employed to do, which is get on with delivering Stage 1, meeting the timelines, the deadlines, and staying within budget. I'll therefore put the— if there's no other councillors, sorry, wishing to speak, I'll go to right of reply, Councillor Sheather.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. Madam Mayor, we've got a heritage committee of this Council that hasn't sat for far too long, and this is something that they should have been discussing. Councillor Wheeler, as well aware, she's on it, because as some of our speakers spoke— This is not a coat of paint that's going to last a week. We're talking a long time. Whatever we do in Windsor is going to be there a long time, and we need to get it right. In relation to the furniture, I've spoken to some of our consultants that Council use in relation to this, and they're horrified with the designs that are in the business paper, and quite frustrated.

It's our town. We live here. And if people want to visit, they're welcome to come into my house, but they accept what they see when they walk in the door. And Windsor's no different. And as one of the speakers spoke, what's been happening over most recent months, and I guess COVID's had a bit to do with it, that a lot of people come into Windsor because they like what they see.

With some of the furniture and stuff that's proposed in the business paper, they don't have to come this far. They can stop short, about Liverpool. And I don't know. I don't go down there. I've looked at the documents. But in relation to the one we were talking about, the glass structure opposite Thompson Square, that's the lead to the mall. You come around, either turn from Parramatta or from Wilberforce Way, and you turn right into it. You can't miss it. And if we don't get that right, and when I say right, when someone drives in there, I want them to say, wow, this is a nice place. Or I don't want them to say, this looks out of place.

And that's my concern. In relation to the availability and stuff and materials and stuff, the work that's been done by some of the people, a lot of people in the community, that a lot of the materials and stuff are available locally. And I'd like the staff to be,

I guess, conscious of the style that's there. Now, there might be a limit to how far that can go, but I'd like at least to be looked at. And I'm sure that there will be comments from people and groups that will comment on that. Just in relation to something that Councillor Kotlash said, the parts of Windsor is old. It's all old. Some are older than others, but it's all old. And with

The work that can be done, nearly everything that's in this document, whether it's fixing up the roads, roundabouts, kerb and gutter, planting the trees, all local stuff. And it's something that I know Councillor Wheeler's brought up in the past, and Councillor Lyons Buckett, about using locals. I don't know how many of the people we've got getting this project to work on it, but I haven't seen any of them local. But I'd like to know down the track maybe that if there are locals that are working on the project, would be good. Madam Mayor, I just hope that we can do our best to a piece of the community that want good changes. And I guess we'll talk about it some.

Thank you, Councillor. I will ask councillors, therefore, to vote separately on parts A and B. In regards to the first paragraph, those in favour of then point A, please raise your hands. Those in favour are Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Jurek, Councillor Zamprogno. Sorry, I'm just— can you put your hands up again? I was reading one . That is six. Those against, please raise your hands. That's Councillor Conolly, Councillor Cotter, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler. It must be seven-five. What am I doing? Oh, you didn't say your name, and Mike. Thank you . I'm making sure this is getting carried. There was seven votes for part A against five.

I declare part A carried. Those in favour of part B, please raise your hands. Those in favour are Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Cotter, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Jurek, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Zamprogno, and Councillor McMahon. I declare part B carried. Thank you, councillors, and thank you to the speakers for that item.

I now move on to the next item subject to public address, item 4.3.5, draft Local Approvals Policy Caravan Parks. I ask our registered speaker to come forward, Lexia Wilson.

If you are leaving the chamber, I'll just ask you to do so quietly so we can proceed. Many thanks. Thank you, Ms Wilson.

Thank you, Mayor and Councillors, for this opportunity to speak. I'm one of eight directors of Hawkesbury Riverside Retreat Limited, which is the owner of 78 Greens Road, Lower Portland. HRR, as we like to call ourselves, is a little different to the other caravan parks on the Hawkesbury River. Since the early 2000s, it has been owned by the shareholders of HRR, of which there are 57 of us. Each shareholder, under the terms of our constitution, has the right to occupy and use a specific site in the park. It is a company title structure similar to the company title structure from older apartment buildings. Each shareholder is effectively the owner of their site and their relocatable cabin, and can, subject to the constitution, sell their individual sites.

The directors of HRR are also shareholder owners who have volunteered their time to serve on the board of HRR. We are not a profit-making organisation. HRR has had a number of historical planning issues arising from some poor decisions made during earlier ownership of 78 Greens Road. After more than 10 years in the making, HRR was granted a development consent pursuant to Section 34 agreement by the Court in July 22, being just 12 months ago. The process to get to July 2022 was very protracted, but also very detailed and diligent. Both HRR and the Council had the best flood experts in New South Wales, if not Australia, advising on the consent conditions to address flood risk, including taking into account the 21 flood and the February 22 flood.

Both Dr Martins, Council's flood expert, and Mr Molino, HRR's flood expert, agreed on flood conditions that did not include the removal of relocatable cabins, which had previously been approved under a Section 68 of the Local Government Act. They were satisfied that if HRR implemented the conditions relating to flood and the very detailed FERP, Flood Evacuation Response Plan, that was prepared by Mr Molino with advice, input and final approval from Dr Martins, the flood risk could be managed. Essentially, the flood risk could be managed if we implemented the FERP, which is a comprehensive and detailed flood risk levels, flood warning infrastructure, signs, sirens, all sorts of wonderful things, the heights at which flood-capable structures would be acceptable, and evacuation protocols.

The requirements reflect current best practice, and our FERP is often referred to as the Rolls-Royce of FERPs, comprising some 65 pages of very detailed requirements. All of this costs money, and in order to satisfy those conditions and others, HRR will need to spend in excess of $1 million, having already spent nearly a million dollars to secure our consent over 10 years, and more than $100,000 on satisfying the deferred commencement conditions. This is not a small amount of money for us 57 owners. HRR is not against the principle of the draft policy, only elements of it. This is evidenced by our endorsement and acceptance of the flood conditions in the FERP. However, to now be faced after all these years and having expended all this money with a draft policy that states relocatable homes will only be considered on flood liable land where the land level is at or above the flood planning level, and a business paper which states that all relocatable dwellings located on flood liable land will need to be removed when current approval expires or if they do not have approval, which when taken together means the removal from our park of most, if not all, of the relocatable cabins which have previously been approved under Section 68.

This is heartbreaking for the owners. Each relocatable cabin was lawfully installed in the period between 2000 and 2007. They were situated on approximate flood height levels and were designed to withstand flood forces and not be washed away. None of the relocatable cabins were washed away in the most recent three floods, and only one had minor water egress in the July 22 flood. The structures are not new and they are not at risk of washing away. They are structurally sound and chained down and were taken into account when the flood consent conditions were agreed and the court ordered the consent and endorsed the FERP. Implementing the conditions of consent and the FERP means HRR will not be operating in an unsafe manner.

Why now mandate their removal and remove all flexibility for each park to be considered on their own individual merits, having regard to their own unique circumstances and the flood mitigation risk, such as the FERP in our case, 65 pages of incredibly detailed requirements, not being taken into account. Our concern is the lack of flexibility with this policy to take into account individual circumstances. Thank you for your time and I'm happy to take questions.

Thank you very much. Are there any questions, councillors? Councillor Sheather. Yeah

Thanks. Thanks for coming. What sort of money do you expect to spend with the work that you're talking about? And at the end of the day, what's the outcome that it's likely that you've been advised?

We've raised a million dollars as this second stage. We spent a million dollars getting the consent with all of the reports and expertise that was required over the 10 years. We've just raised a million dollars from our owners. A

Lot of

That

Was addressed

In the FERB and will be dealt with in terms of the implementation of the conditions of consent, which will go to about a million dollars. So we were hopeful and ecstatic when we got our consent 12 months ago that, provided we spent the money and complied with the conditions, that we would have a place we could enjoy that would be safe. Those

Conditions by the— Just

Your microphone, please, Councillor.

Sorry. Were those conditions by the court or council? There

Was a Section 34 agreement with council that was then, as a technical term I think, was court ordered. But we were on the courtroom stairs when we— Got to the Section 34 agreement.

Any further questions? Thank you, Ms Wilson, appreciate that. Councillor Conolly.

Thank you. I'd like to move a motion, similar to what's in the business paper. It was suggested by the General Manager earlier today, if you've got that text there, that one per the business paper, two, adopt the draft local approvals policy, caravan parks, included subject to the following amendments. Enclosed associated structures such as sheds and garages will only be considered on land below the flood planning level, subject to an objection being lodged with the Council, demonstrating that the location of these structures on land below the level will not be inconsistent with the purpose of the policy. Relocated homes will only be considered on land below the flood planning level, subject to an objection being lodged,

Demonstrating that these structures on land below the flood planning level will not be inconsistent with the purpose of this policy, and amend flood planning level in the draft policy to be means the level of a one in 100 ARI flood event.

Thank you, Councillor. Do I have someone seconding that? Thank you, Councillor Veigel. While that comes up on the board, I'll ask you to speak, Councillor.

I think that this is, as we said when this came up last time, I think it's very good work. It's needed. That small change will go to situations like the one we just heard, where there is demonstrable evidence that it can be safely done. There's an opportunity within this policy now, if we adopt those changes, that Council could consider whether or not the objectives of the policy are being met some other way, which goes to the flexibility that the speaker spoke about. We're not saying just no. We're saying almost always no, unless there's some other reason you can show us why it can be safe, and I think that's important we make that change.

Thank you, Councillor. Anyone else wishing to speak?

Yes, Madam Mayor.

Councillor Sheather.

Yep. Madam Mayor, I have some frustrations about it. I understand there needs to be a policy, but there's been challenges to this on two occasions were amended twice. That concerns me. The other is, as a policy, we're not looking at change in anything in the LEP or anything. It's a Council policy. The LEP and DCP is a bit different. Other people assess it, like in the State, and sign off on it. This is for us to sign off on.

I know recently there was an application for a shed at one of the caravan parks that was asked to be withdrawn,

And I wonder, first I wondered why, and I don't know why, but it would seem that from the information that was provided to me that it was part of the process of a business of the caravan park on the premise.

And we don't have the privilege to get involved in DAs and the like, so I'm at some arm's length, and I was wondering if there's some way that I might be satisfied, and it's a question, in relation to why that might not be approved, considering to me on the face of things it looked to be something that was relevant, and this— If this document prohibits that sort of thing.

Thank you, Councillor. Madam Mayor,

General

Manager,

Madam Mayor, could I just intervene and just ask something, because I just think it might be relevant to that, is we received a very good explanation at the briefing around what the difference in the approvals were. I'm just wondering if we could have a public explanation on that so people understand what the different approvals are and how this policy fits that.

Thank you. Yeah, I'll refer to the General Manager for answering your question, Councillor Sheather. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Mayor, and thank you, Councillors. Again, Council was briefed on the complexity associated with the legislative framework that we're dealing with here, particularly around the dual approval stream, shall we say. So an approval under the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act, in which to operate a caravan park, or in the case of the park that Councillor Sheather is referring to, was to build a 400, 450-odd square metre shed for the storage of boats. That structure for the storage of the boats isn't actually covered under the second stream, which is the Local Government Act approval. So we've got two approval streams: Local Government Act and the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act.

The Local Government Act, Section 68 of the Local Government Act, requires approval for several activities, including installing a manufactured home, movable dwelling or associated structure on land, and operate a caravan park or camping ground. Okay, so in the instance of the storage shed for boats, that doesn't actually require an approval under Section 68. And in the instance of that one down at Sackville was— Something that was not able to be supported by council staff, given the size and the location of the shed, having regard to our flood policy. And the flood policy is an instrument set up under the alternate stream under the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act, not the Local Government Act.

So they're quite separate but related pieces of legislation. And in this circumstance, the matter that Councillor Sheather was talking about, it was the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act stream, and council's adopted flood policy, and the risks and measures that are outlined within that policy around protection of life and property, that when the application was being assessed, that the staff found that it didn't accord with that policy.

Thank you, General Manager. Councillor?

Yeah, thanks, Madam Mayor.

If it was an agricultural activity , turf farm, for instance, which is गेnus on the floodplain, and the necessity for a shed was required because of that business, would that be approved?

General Manager?

Still not a matter for this policy. Okay. The policy you've got before you tonight is a policy under the Local Government Act. What you're referring to there, Councillor, unless it is a manufactured home, a movable dwelling, or an associated structure, and/or is to operate a caravan park, it's not something that is dealt with by this policy.

Right. Thanks, Madam Mayor. And I guess that's where the frustration lies, that we've got two businesses, both on the floodplain, both a livelihood, where one activity, because of policy. Um. can do certain things, and we're certainly restricting another business that is restricted in the activities of what they can do. And while it's, and the frustration I have that we should be doing the opposite. And when I say the opposite, I'm talking about fairness, and whether it's the Section 68 or whether it's a policy of Council, we should be looking for opportunities to offer the same balance, I suppose, in that sense. Because there are triggers that allow Council to say yes or no. You're talking about velocity, you're talking about depth, you're talking about different sections of a floodplain and the like.

What concerns me is there's probably about eight out of the 17 caravan parks that are operational and have been for a long while. And even though there's been issues with some of them, they're issues that can be dealt with in other parts of either policy or legislation. And indeed, there was one at Wisemans Ferry that was dealt with just that way recently. Well, when I say recently, over the last few years. It just concerns me that the policy we're put in place,

With the possible interpretation by a planner in a different place at a different time. can literally cease a business from operating. And I know there's issues with flooding. These people know it, they've got a business on it.

But I guess I wonder that we've had half a dozen floods in two years, none in 30 years, and whether or not that we're , I suppose, putting onerous, and I say that very generally, conditions on the caravan parks.

Madam Mayor, I don't know that I can support the policy . I'm certainly not comfortable with it. I don't know what we can do about it, but I think we can do better.

And if down the track that there's an issue where a business is closed down because of a policy that I've got a problem with and supported on, even though that I have an issue with, I would be pretty uncomfortable about it. And I don't know, but I do intend to look at the policy further with staff and some other people to see whether or not we can look at some way to better it. I don't know whether that's practical or the like. But I can't sit here and support it, feeling the way I do at this time.

Thank you, Councillor. I appreciate that. Anyone else wishing to speak? Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. Look, I think it's— I understand Councillor Sheather's concerns. We're not—this, but this is a policy that has safety at its heart, I think. And there are a couple of spin-offs that come from that that we've seen from the successive floods that we've had over the last couple of years, and that is the loss of—we're very fortunate, I think, that we haven't had any loss of life. We have had a significant loss of property, and we've also had an extraordinary accumulation of waste, not necessarily in our own LGA, but in those downstream. We have the power to mitigate both that loss of property and that waste and destruction that we see by stopping people putting caravan parks and the stuff that they put in immovable structures in caravan parks on the banks of a river that we know floods.

Now , we're not saying you can't have the caravan park there. What we are saying is, if you have a caravan park there, you must act in this way to mitigate the loss of property and the mess and the cleanup that ensues. And let's face it, it's large sectors of the community that are involved in this cleanup, and they give very freely of their time to do that. They are extraordinarily generous in the time that they spend cleaning up after these floods. I don't think that this policy is necessarily aimed at parks like Riverside Retreat, who it would appear to me to be are looking to be extremely responsible with the development that they have on that site and the way that they manage it. But we have to write policies to mitigate against the things that can possibly go wrong when people aren't that conscientious and aren't that careful about how they set up their facilities.

And we know that there are other operators and that there are other sites where the damage to people's homes in one instance and to people's property has been extraordinary. Now, some of that has happened because we had that 20-year lag where we didn't have any flooding. But it's also happened because we've got forgetful and careless. This policy aims to mitigate against that. I think the additions that have been suggested and Councillor Conolly has put up here are really useful. I think they allow places like Riverside Retreat to function within this policy. It means that we can put this policy forward with confidence that it will mitigate the bulk of the problem whilst still allowing sites who want to go further to do so in terms of their mitigation.

Sorry

Councillor, just one moment. Sorry, so you can't take photos in the chamber. Thank you. Oh, you're taking a photo of the wording? Oh, okay. Sorry, sorry. I'll just... Well, we can make it a little bit—oh, it's going to run off the screen. If you'd like to email me tomorrow, I can send you a copy of the wording, sir. Thank you. Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. So I think this is a useful way—I think this is our best option way forward. There is some extraordinarily good work in this policy. I think it's a policy that the staff who prepared it should be really proud of, and I think it's a policy that we should be able to send off to organisations like the Floodplain Risk Management Australia, and to conferences, and show that Hawkesbury is fair dinkum about making sure that recreational use, and in the few instances where we have permanent residents along the caravan parks, that we can coexist with this river in a way that keeps both people safe and mitigates damage to property. We can't allow the build-up of staff, caravans that can't be moved, solid annexes that can't be moved,

People's holiday stuff in structures that can no longer be lifted quickly by the park manager with a tractor or the owners themselves.

Sorry

It's a new bill. We have to do better than we have in the past. We can't not doing this bites all of our insurance premiums. It costs the SES and the RFS extraordinary amounts of time in clean-up. This is the very least we should be doing to mitigate the risk of the floodplain that we live on.

Thank you, Councillor. Anyone else wishing to speak on this item? Right of reply, Councillor Conolly.

Thank you. Yeah, I agree with what Councillor Wheeler just said there at the end. I understand what Councillor Sheather is saying about businesses, and none of us want to shut down anybody, and that's not the purpose of the policy. But we can't ignore the huge public cost of propping up these businesses every time they have a catastrophe, as well as all the other costs that Councillor Wheeler mentioned. So there's lots of things in places that they shouldn't be all over the Hawkesbury. And we're not talking about moving them. We're talking about making sure we don't keep contributing to that.

Thank you, Councillor. All those in favour of the motion on the board, please raise your hand. Those in favour are Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor McMahon. Those against? Councillor Sheather and Councillor Djuric. I declare the item carried.

To the gentleman in the audience. Sorry, wasn't trying to call you out there. Please, my email address is on the website. Please send me an email and we'll get a copy of that for you tomorrow, no problem at all. Oh, there's being one printed. Look at that efficient staff. You couldn't ask for anything more. All right, thank you. All right, thank you, Councillors. That's the end of the items subject to public address. I'm just going to move the items en bloc. Those items are 4.2.1, 4.2.3, 4.3.4 and 4.4.1. Do I have someone move that way? Councillor Reardon, seconded Councillor Zamprogno. All those in favour, please raise your hand. In favour, Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Zamprogno and Councillor McMahon.

I declare that carried.

The next item, therefore, is item 4.2.2, media policy. Do I have anyone wishing to move something? Councillor Wheeler.

I'll move that way, Madam Mayor.

Seconder, please? Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. I think this policy is much better than I thought it was going to be. I think we've benefited from not adopting earlier iterations of social media policies that some councils have adopted that have effectively been used as gag clauses. And I think they're really problematic for what is effectively a political, for council as a political body. I want to draw people's attention to page 4 of the policy in the section under, the section entitled Roles and Responsibility and the Responsibility of Councillors. And it states in there clearly that councillors are free to express their personal views to the media. The caveat is that you must not purport to speak for council unless authorised to do so, and that you must clarify that you're expressing your personal view.

Now, I think that's extremely clear, and I think that that's a workable place, a workable position for council laws. This policy shouldn't be used as a gag order. Councillors must be guaranteed freedom of political expression, and that has to include the right to detail why we have disagreed with a council resolution, why we voted in the way that we did, in a respectful and reasonable way.

Further point 8.23 refers to councillors must uphold, sorry, must uphold and accurately represent the policies and decisions of council's governing body, but may explain why they voted on a matter in the way that they did, and I think that's fair and reasonable. There are some useful inclusions in here, including house rules on our Facebook pages, including rules for banning and means of appeal, not only on council's page but on our own individual councillor pages, and I think that that's also useful information for us and for us to include. And hopefully we'll cut down on some of the allegations of blocking and banning that we've probably all been subjected to. I suspect, though, that councillors are going to need additional training about our obligations under the State Records Act, because that is, I think, an additional compliance measure that we may not be prepared for.

So in adopting this policy, I think we have to be aware that there will be some additional resourcing that's required. Thanks.

Thanks

Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Likewise, I think it's quite a good policy. I had a question, and there is actually, I think on page 16 it's a typo in terms—it's not page 16 on this one I've got here. It must be on the actual policy—which, clause 8.55, I think it should read clause 8.54. That's all, just before it goes on public exhibition. I did have a question with clause 8.49, which does require us to have more training. Only a few councillors attended the induction on social media, or some of us did. I'm just wondering whether, once this is adopted, then that requirement imposes that the other councillors who didn't do it need to attend and do that.

I'll just refer that to the General Manager.

I think with reference to the policy, the answer to that would be yes. Okay,

Thank you. And probably an update for those who did, I guess, because it's a new policy. Thank you. I think it's really good that it goes out for public comment. I don't know how much the public understand about what a media policy means, but I think this quite well defines the various roles and responsibilities that are attached, particularly to the online environment, but also around media and addressing the media. And I think it's made that really clear because I would like to see that, you know, all councillors can at times be involved with giving the media their opinion, with the proper clarifications around it, as we've seen that are stated in here. So I welcome the public's input, if they should so have any input into this policy, but I think it's a good policy and one that very, very well articulates what the various parameters are around it.

Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak on this item? No, right of reply, Councillor Wheeler. Thank you. All those in favour, please raise your hand. Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Zamprogno and Councillor McMahon. I declare the item carried.

The next item is 4.3.2, outcome of public exhibition draft environmental sustainability strategy. Do I have anyone wishing to move that way? Councillor Wheeler. Move the recommendation. Seconded, Madam Mayor. Seconded by Lyons-Buckett. Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. Look, very briefly, I think there's some really nice stuff in this policy. I suspect from some of the comments that people haven't quite understood the purpose of the policy. And I just want to reiterate that the purpose of nature and biodiversity isn't for humans to use it. It has a purpose. It has a right to exist in its own right, and it doesn't have to do anything that gives humans anything, really. If we get a warm fuzzy feeling out of it, that's great. But it's not there for our use, growth, profit, or any of those other things. The thing that I find most powerful about this strategy is the comments of young people, both in the consultation, and there's some lovely work in the consultation phase of this project.

I'd like to see us engaging in far more of these quite directed consultations that ensure that we hit groups that we don't necessarily hear from. You know, rather than just sticking stuff out on Have Your Say and hoping that we hear from everybody, this policy has really gone out and engaged with particular segments of the community who may not feel free to engage, or who may not even notice that they have the right to engage. Simply because it's not on their radar. So particularly the consultation with First Nations people and with young people, I think have been really useful in informing this strategy. And I particularly want to draw attention to the statement from the future generations.

There is no point in us doing any of what we do if it's not with the future generations and the future of this place in mind. The First Nations consultation, I think, reminds us that we are simply a blip in a very long timeline of caring for this place, and that we have an extraordinary responsibility to do so. We are unlikely to get it right all the time, but I think this is at least some guidance in doing better in the future. Thanks.

Thank you, Councillor. Anyone else wishing to speak?

No. I therefore don't think you'll need a right of reply. Those in favour, please raise your hand. Excuse me. Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Zamprogno and Councillor McMahon. I declare it carried.

Excuse me, I shouldn't have taken

That sip

Of water.

The next item is 4.3.3, draft Child Safe Policy. Do I have anyone wishing to move that way? Councillor

Lyons-Buckett,

Seconded by Councillor Zamprogno. Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

I'm just trying to find it on my computer where it's gone. Where's it? 4.3.3. Sorry, not being compliant. I'm

Getting— I know I know, but I've gone past that, sorry. Sorry about this. There's a very long item before it. Okay, the recommendation. Yep. So I think this, I just wanted to make a mention of this before it went out, and thank the staff for the work that's been done around this policy. Obviously it's going on to public exhibition, but I think it's really important to say about this, and also about the inclusions in another item into the Code of Conduct, that after there was the audit done, which I think was a very comprehensive and a very good audit for Council to have undertaken, to state to the public that Council is doing everything possible to ensure that we have the safest, you know, the safest policy around child protection, and to make all the Council and its operations and its events, et cetera, child safe.

So I think that it's something that is probably overdue here, and I think that would be admitted by everybody, that we needed to have this done, and I welcome any feedback that the public have around it.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. There's , I think, I just want to draw attention to a few things that I think we need to be aware of in adopting this policy, which may happen if we don't have submissions back on it. It calls for us to develop a culture of listening to children, young people and families, and that goes to my comments, I think, on the draft sustainability strategy, where we made a real attempt to engage with young people. I would like to see us do more of that. We empower children and young people to speak up in terms of child protection and around whether they feel safe in a space or whether they are safe in a space or not, when we engage them on a number of other things. So it's not just, we can't just focus solely on child safety or lack of harm without focusing, as an organisation, on bringing children and young people to front and centre in all of our processes.

There is a couple of things in this policy that I think that I want to flag that I think both council and staff are probably going to need additional training in. And I say this as someone who has worked in child protection in the past, and so I've got some understanding of the difficulties of this space. The use of the gaining of children's consent before engagement in activities, and in activities that are as small, you know, in an age of social media as taking photographs. And I know that we talk about, the policy talks about asking parents for permission, but I think we do need to focus on the idea that we need to gain permission from children as well, and also the idea of informed consent, which isn't just the same as saying, hey mate, is that okay?

and having the kid say, yep, with actually no understanding of what's going on. These are things that are going to need further clarification for both us and our staff.

There's, we also need to be careful, be mindful of inclusion in the language that we use. And I think we need to look at further at the language that we use in the way we approach information and getting information back from our ratepayers and residents and community members, particularly around race and gender issues, to make sure that the language is inclusive. I think councillors should be subject to Working with Children Check in the same way that we expect staff and other participants to do so, and that should be included in this policy. We are in a position of power and privilege in the community, and people expect that we have some level of responsibility. That means that we need to have those checks in place .

We have a number of staff, particularly frontline staff in areas like the pool and the library and some of our community centres, who often provide surrogate child minding services, including without explicit agreement from those staff members. It's vital that children are safe and feel safe when in council's care and premises, and I think we need to invest into the resourcing of those staff and in those spaces to make sure that children are indeed safe and feel safe, but also that our staff feel both safe and supported in those places as well. And similarly, our mandatory reporting training and responsibilities are going to require additional resourcing. That is quite confronting work. It's potentially triggering work for staff who become mandatory reporters, and it's critical that we commit to adequately resourcing and supporting our staff through those procedures.

So while we may not be involved in the actual training of those staff, we do have to keep in mind when we sign off on things like the operational plan and delivery plan that we have adequately resourced these processes so that our staff can function and be supported to do that work. Thanks.

Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak on the item? Right of reply, Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Oh, sorry, Deputy Mayor, how can I miss you?

I'm here, yeah. I want to thank the staff for this report, and I agree with a lot of what Councillor Wheeler just said. As an ex-teacher, this is something we went through, or started maybe 15, 20 years ago, and then it's now catching up to us here. I'm sure Councillor Zamprogno recognises that as well. And Councillor Wheeler has mentioned the mandatory reporting, and that is a very tricky part. I mean, it tells us on top of page four that all incidents or allegations of child abuse must be reported to the general manager and the manager of governance. Now, even though we're not listed as mandatory reporters in the second paragraph, I believe it's actually mandatory for all people, whether they're listed there or not, to report if they hear anything.

And actually, it is an offence not to. And I think we need to go into training on that, or when this comes back we might find another way of wording that top two lines there to make it quite clear that we don't get a choice on reporting. It's mandatory for everyone whether they're listed in that list or not. So if I can get that looked at for when this comes back, I think I'd appreciate that. Thank you.

Thanks, Deputy Mayor. Just confirming, no right of reply. All those in favour please raise your hands. Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Zamprogno and Councillor McMahon. I declare the item carried.

The next item is 4.5.1, Macquarie Park Aquatic Safety Assessment. Anyone wishing to move that way? Councillor Reardon, seconded Councillor Sheather. Councillor Reardon, do you wish to make any remarks? Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak on the item? Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. I'm very pleased to see this, and I'm happy to support it. I'm just wondering if we need to be more specific in what we're actually supporting and what we aren't supporting, because the business paper gives a range of things that are on offer, I suppose, and outlines whether we're currently supported and whether we can resource them or not. And I'm wondering if in the recommendation we should—sorry, in the resolution, we should be more specific about what we support and what we don't support. And for me, the list of things to support would be the public water safety plan, the emergency response plan, the targeted public awareness and education strategy, and systems of safety signage, with us perhaps considering how to support and resource, or approaching other tiers of government to support and resource emergency response system and equipment, and then us not supporting designated swimming areas and supervision.

And I'm wondering if we need to have—I'd like some advice from the staff—if we need to have a more specific resolution for us to go forward.

I'll just check to refer that to Director of Infrastructure.

Thank you through you, Madam Mayor. The intention of the Public Water Safety Strategy and the report that would no doubt come back with that to Council would probably provide more information and guidance on things like the resourcing and what options there may be available to otherwise support those initiatives. However, it's up to the Chamber as to whether they want to, or whether it wants to make that decision tonight or to make that decision next year after the strategy has been completed.

So , is it likely that the strategy will expend energy looking at things that we would be unlikely, I think, to go ahead with, or—

The strategy will look at swimming more broadly across the Hawkesbury. So that is something that the Chamber should keep in the back of the mind, that if you withdraw support for those elements listed, then that would potentially remove it for all areas across the Hawkesbury. And there may indeed, and not to pre-empt this, but there may indeed be safe designated swimming areas in other parts of the Hawkesbury. So on that basis, it may be a bit pre-emptive to start to cull those issues.

Thank you. And another question, if I may, Madam Mayor. The timing of that with the places to swim, or the poorly named places to swim grant, how does that coincide?

The Places to Swim grants, I'm not across the detail of the timing of that program insofar as when it has to be acquitted. I believe it's in this year's capital, or will be part of this year's capital works program. So the signage component would certainly be aiming to deliver that from Macquarie Park before summer. The harder infrastructure, such as the paths and other improvements, I'd have to take that on notice.

And that, sorry, I know I said no more questions, but I'm having another one. Sorry, this is a sub-question. That signage

Will be consistent with what's been recommended under the water safety plan that we had back previously.

That's correct.

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'm happy to support the— Okay.

Thank you, Councillor.

Anyone else? Just a question for माय. I can't

See your mic. It's hidden behind. Yeah, perfect.

We could always redesign the chamber so we can see the LEDs, I suppose. We won't go there, I don't think. Let's just go back to Macquarie Park, right? We don't want to go through—well, let's not go through the tragedies of the past. Just risk mitigation. You planneded a scan underneath the water, that swim zone?

Director of Infrastructure.

Through you, Madam Mayor, there's work required to understand the bed of the river for some unrelated works on the other side of the river. It's below the terraces. So as part of that project, it's likely, not guaranteed, but likely that we'll have to undertake a bathymetric survey, which is the survey of the bed of the river.

No, thanks. The other thing, if you do do a scan on depth, is there any reason why we can't depth mark it like we do with swimming pools?

Through you, Madam Mayor, I'd be reluctant to provide that sort of advice, as the depth would only be as accurate as the date it was taken. The sands and the floor of the river move significantly through that space, right through the length of the Hawkesbury.

Thanks

Councillor. Anyone else wishing to speak? No right of reply, Councillor Reardon? No, no worries. All those in favour, please raise your hand. In favour are Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Durick, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Zamprogno and Councillor McMahon. I declare the item carried.

The next item is 4.5.2, Western Sydney Regional Waste and Sustainable Materials Strategy. Do I have anyone wishing to move that way?

Councillor Veigel, seconded Deputy Mayor.

Councillor Veigel, do you wish to say anything?

Not necessary, Madam Mayor. Thanks.

Any other councillors wishing to speak? Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I welcome this strategy. I think it's really good. I did have a question about, I wasn't quite sure from it around waste pollution, just moving into that, and the other work, perhaps the Deputy Mayor can maybe enlighten us on this, but the work around illegal dumping that is also being done on the regional level, which I'm just wondering if that's finished. I didn't have time to click on the link that went to it, so I'm just wondering how that all fits in with this one, if I could have some clarity on that please.

Director of Infrastructure.

Sorry, can I have the question again, Councillor?

Well, you could if I could remember it.

I was just

Asking about the other work that is being done around illegal dumping. Like I was looking at the West Rock, the regional things, and there's work also being done on illegal dumping. I'm just wondering when that's going to be included, if that is— there's a one brief reference or there's a reference around waste pollution and things, but I'm just quite interested to see where we're up to around that specific problem.

I'll just refer to the General Manager.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I think that might be one we best take on notice and provide Council with a comprehensive update. Obviously, the issue of illegal dumping in the Hawkesbury is of X1, and it's very much one we'd rather provide you an informed response on. Oh

Thank you. I do welcome that, and I know, I understand how complex it is, but I just think that this is such good work going on and everything, and I think it's a part of the whole addressing the waste pollution that we have. But I do think that this is, you know, really good work here, and it was actually really interesting reading. So thank you.

Any other councillors wishing to speak? Right of reply, Councillor Veigel. No,

Thank you, Madam Mayor.

Thank you. All those in favour, please raise your hand. In favour, Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel. Hand up. Councillor Sheather, hand up or down? Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Zamprogno, and Councillor McMahon. I declare the item carried.

The next item is 7.1.1, question with notice, Hawkesbury River County Council.

Madam Mayor, I have a point of order on that matter.

Yes, Councillor Zamprogno.

I'd like to invite you to rule that question out of order because it, in my opinion, reflects poorly on staff.

That's a question with notice, so I will allow the staff to answer that one in the next business paper, taking that into account, Councillor. Thank you.

I therefore will move on to item 7.1.2, responses to councillor questions taken on notice at the end of the council meeting.

Any councillors wishing to make remarks? No. We therefore—

Move into confidential. Item 8.3.1, Code of Conduct Complaints and Investigation. Do I have someone move into confidential? Councillor Reardon, seconded Councillor Veigel. All those in favour? Declare that carried. We'll move into confidential, please.

Thank you everybody and welcome back to the general session of Council. In the confidential session, we had a decision made. First of all, once we went into confidential, Councillors then progno declared an interest. I'll just get you to read that into the microphone, please.

Yes. Of course, my personal acquaintance with Councillor Dogramaci predates our election to Council. In an abundance of caution, I recused myself from this item.

Thank you, Councillor. I'll now hand over to the General Manager to read out the outcome of the confidential session.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. In regards to item 8.3.1, Code of Conduct Complaints and Investigation, whilst in closed session, the Council resolved on the motion of Councillor Veigel, seconded Councillor Sheather, that: one, in relation to the Code of Conduct complaints lodged 7 February 22 and 23 March 2023, Council note that after investigation, an investigator found that, a, i, Councillor Eddie Dogramaci drafted and distributed leaflets identified as leaflets 1 to 5 in the final investigation report to residents in the Hawkesbury City Council local government area. The leaflets contained statements that adversely affect the reputation of Council and that suggest that Council has mismanaged the response in relation to a sewer leak and withheld information from him in relation to rising Main C; two, Councillor Eddie Dogramaci's conduct in relation to the drafting and distributing of leaflets 1 to 5 to residents in the Hawkesbury City Council local government area amounts to a breach of the Hawkesbury City Council Code of Conduct; three, in two previous Code of Conduct complaints about Councillor Eddie Dogramaci, in July 2022 and November 2022 complaints, preliminary assessments into the complaints found that there was information to indicate that Councillor Dogramaci had distributed leaflets to the community which adversely impacted the reputation of Council.

In relation to the July 2022 complaint, Councillor Dogramaci was counselled about his behaviour and it was drawn to his attention that his behaviour affected public confidence in Council. In relation to the November 2022 complaint, Councillor Dogramaci was issued with a formal warning to refrain from the offending behaviours, including distributing leaflets containing information that adversely impacted on the reputation of Council. Four, by drafting and distributing leaflets one to five, Councillor Eddie Dogramaci had failed to comply with the Hawkesbury City Council Code of Conduct, in particular, Councillor Dogramaci has breached sections 3.1A and C of the Code, which state: 3.1, you must not conduct yourself in a manner that A is likely to bring the Council or other Council officials into dispute and C is improper or unethical.

B, one, Councillor Eddie Dogramaci attached his business card to leaflets 3 and 4 that referred to his campaigning to become a member of the New South Wales Parliament. By doing this, Councillor Dogramaci used Council property for the purpose of assisting with his election campaign to become a member of the New South Wales Parliament. Councillor Dogramaci's actions could give the appearance that his leaflets were official Council material for the purpose of assisting with his election campaign to become a member of the New South Wales Parliament. Two, on the 18th of August 2022, Councillor Eddie Dogramaci was provided with an email from Hawkesbury City Council in relation to the use of his business cards on leaflets.

The email reminded the Councillor that Council resources cannot be used for campaigning and drew his attention to sections 8.1.7 and 8.1.8 of the Code. By drafting and distributing leaflets 3 and 4, Councillor Eddie Dogramaci has failed to comply with Hawkesbury City Council Code of Conduct and in particular, he has breached sections 8.1.7 and 8.1.8 of the Code, which state: 8.1.7, you must not use Council resources, including Council staff, property or facilities, for the purpose of assisting your election campaign or for the election campaigns of others, unless the resources, property or facilities are otherwise available for use or hire by the public and any publicly advertised fee is paid for the use of the resources, property or facility.

8.18. You must not use the Council letterhead, Council crests, Council email or social media or other information that could give rise to the appearance that it is official Council material: a, for the purpose of assisting your election campaign or the election campaign of others; or b, for other non-official purposes. C. By engaging in behaviours that are in breach of the code, Councillor Eddie Dogramaci has engaged in misconduct as defined by section 440F of the Local Government Act, which states:

In this chapter, misconduct of a councillor means any of the following: b, failure of the councillor to comply with an applicable requirement of a code of conduct. 2. In accordance with clause 7.5.8B of the Procedures for the Administration of the Code of Conduct, Council: a, formally censure Councillor Eddie Dogramaci for breaching sections 3.1A, 3.1C, 8.17 and 8.18 of the Hawkesbury City Council Code of Conduct under section 440G of the Local Government Act 1993; and b, refer the matter to the Office of Local Government for further action under the misconduct provisions of the Local Government Act 1993.

For the motion were Councillors McMahon, Reardon, Veigel, Sheather, Djuric, Lyons-Buckett and Wheeler. Absent for the vote were Councillors Zamprogno, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash and Councillor Dogramaci. Thank you, Madam. Oh, and Councillor Calvert, sorry, also voted in support of the motion. Thank you.

Thank you, General Manager. With all the business done for this evening, I declare the meeting closed at 10. 18 p.m. Thank you everybody for your attendance. Thank you.