14 May 2024 - Ordinary

Good evening, everybody.

Welcome to Hawkesbury City Council's meeting for the 14th of May 2024. Hawkesbury City Council acknowledges the Darug and Darkinjung people as the traditional custodians of the land of the Hawkesbury. We pay respect to all Elders past, present and emerging, and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of the country. I'll now hand over to the General Manager.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Members of the public attending the meeting this evening are advised that in the event of an emergency, you will be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit following the guidance of our warden. I would also like to advise that in accordance with the Code of Meeting Practice, meetings of the Council are recorded. In the terms of the Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, this may involve the recording of personal information provided at the time of the meeting. The recordings are made to assist staff in compiling the minutes of the meeting and to enable the broadcasting of Council meetings. The provision of any information that is recorded is voluntary.

If any person does not wish to be recorded, they should not address or request to address the meeting. The recordings may be made available to other persons where such access is in accordance with the relevant regulations. The recordings are stored on Council's record management system. Meetings of the Council may be separately recorded with the prior authority of the Council. For the benefit of those persons who will be addressing the Council tonight, it is expected that you will refrain from making any insult, allegation or personal reflection against any person, present or not, at this meeting. This request relates to both your address to Council and any answers given in response to questions from Councillors.

Finally, it's also requested that persons participating in the meeting or attending the meeting this evening have their mobile phones on them, that they please turn it off or switch it to silent. Thank you, Madam Mayor.

Thank you, General Manager. I can see we have all Councillors present, so no need for apologies or leave of absence. Can I please have Councillors declare any interest this evening?

Councillor Wheeler. Thanks, Madam Mayor. I've got a less than significant non-pecuniary interest in item 4.5.2.

Thank you, Councillor. Any other declarations of interest? I'll declare my items, which is 4.5.2

And 5.1.3.

Thank you, Councillors.

Madam Mayor, I'll declare a less than significant non-pecuniary interest in item 3.1.1.

Thank you, Councillor.

Madam Mayor. Yes. I

Too need declare on 5.1.3, the Traffic Committee.

Thank you, Councillor. I'll just note that down.

Thank you. That's all the declarations. Thank you, Councillors.

Can I please have someone confirm the minutes of the last meeting? Councillor Reardon, seconded. Councillor Veigel. All those in favour, please raise your hand. In favour are Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Cottlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor McMahon. You're not voting, Councillor Zamprogno? Thank you, Councillor Zamprogno. I declare that carried.

If it would please the councillors, I'd like to move a procedural motion to put up condolences before the agenda item subject to public address. Can I have someone move that way? Councillor Veigel, seconded Councillor Sheather. All those in favour, please raise your hand. Thank you, councillors.

What I'm going to do for this condolence motion is obviously in honour of the passing of the Mayor of Blacktown, Tony Bleasdale OAM. Considering our Deputy Mayor Barry Calvert had known Tony for a significant amount of time, I'll now hand over to the Deputy Mayor to offer the condolences.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I consider it an honour to be asked to present this condolence motion for Tony Bleasdale OAM. I've had the privilege to work alongside him in our constant fight for getting better resources and a better deal for Western Sydney. Tony Bleasdale OAM, Mayor of Blacktown City Council and longstanding community leader for the Blacktown community, passed away suddenly on 2 May 2024 at the age of 77. And Tony was the loving husband of Nina and loving father to his four children and grandchildren. Tony was elected to the position of Mayor of Blacktown City Council in 2019 and has been a member of the Australian Labor Party. He was awarded the Medal of Order of Australia on the Queen's Birthday 2010 Honours List for his service to the community and supportive charitable organisations and for his contribution to local government in the Blacktown City area.

Tony's charitable work includes financial supporter of Gynaecological Cancer Research Fund, Westmead Hospital, supporter of Blacktown Relay for Life, Cancer Council New South Wales, financial contributor and fundraising for Schizophrenia Research Institute, sponsor of construction industry Breast Cancer Awareness Campaign since 2005, financial supporter of Mount Druitt Town Rangers Soccer Club since 2007, and financial sponsor of McFadyen Antarctic Explorer 2003. Tony also had a long involvement with the West Tradies Club at Mount Druitt. Prior to becoming the Managing Director of National Contractors, a major construction industry labour hire firm, Tony was Group Industrial Relations Manager with the McNamara Group and Assistant Secretary at the Building Workers Industrial Union.

Tony provided, proof, sorry, a visionary leader in transforming Blacktown to better serve a growing population and was a passionate advocate for First Nations people. His vision for the future of the Blacktown area is to create vigorous and vibrant communities in many different areas. Tony is described as a larger-than-life character who made a positive impact everywhere he went. And when I first started thinking about Tony, the phrase that came straight to mind is larger-than-life character. Tony used to be able to come into a room and dominate the room just by his... His charisma and the way he spoke, and the seriousness and how earnest he was in what he put forward, always in favour of Western Sydney and looking after the people in Western Sydney who were not as privileged as everybody else.

Blacktown Council has a very strong relationship with Korea. They have had many expos in Blacktown and Korea, and I went to one in Blacktown where the Korean trade delegation came and spoke to many Blacktown businesses. And indeed, that's why Tony was overseas. He was over in Korea, trying once again to cement the relationship between business here and business in Korea. So you could say that he actually died on the job, and that's the kind of guy he was. He believed in what he was doing, put his whole heart into it. And I can honestly say that it's been a pleasure to be able to know him and work with him, and I think he truly was a man who made a difference to Western Sydney. So Council offers its condolences to Tony Bleasdale's family and friends.

Thank you.

Thank you, Deputy Mayor. We may just pause for a moment in honour of Mayor Tony Bleasdale.

Thank you, everybody, and thank you, Deputy Mayor, for those kind words.

The next items are the items on the agenda that are subject to public address. Going in order of those items as per the agenda in the business paper, the first item will be item 4.3.1, Crown Land status McMahon Park, Kurrajong, and I invite Angela Hall to speak, who is registered this evening. Thank you, Angela.

Good evening, Madam Mayor, Councillors, Council staff, and members of the community. I'm here tonight in my role, which is a volunteer role as Secretary of the McMahon's Park Association, and I represent the McMahon's Park Association this evening here. I want to go back to 2019, and I will apologise to the Mayor, the Director of City Planning, and to the General Manager, and to a couple of the councillors that I unashamedly have advocated for the community in Kurrajong, and particularly McMahon's Park Oval, the sporting oval, the community centre, and the park itself. Back in 2019, we were asked to put a sign on the community building. I submitted a DA and was told that we had to apply to Crown Lands as they were the owner.

of McMahons Park. I submitted to Crown Lands an application to ask for permission for the digital sign and promptly received a phone call asking why I wanted to put a sign in a reserve. I explained to them it wasn't a reserve, that there was actually a community centre there, and they said, not to our knowledge. Who built it? So I explained who had built it, Hawkesbury City Council, and that I was on the McMahons Park Committee, hence I was submitting the development application. It would turn out that council at that stage, and this was advised by a council employee, believed that they were trustees of the land at McMahons Park. Unfortunately, they weren't. So we then went through a process of a plan of management.

Unfortunately, for McMahons Park, while the plan of management is in progress, we can't do any improvements to the park. So we were sat at McMahons Park. Our fitness equipment was falling apart and had to be removed, and we couldn't do any improvements to the park. We had great ideas for the park, and the committee was committed to improvements, especially during COVID, and unfortunately, to this day, we still can't make improvements to McMahons Park. But back to the plan of management. Unfortunately for us, the initial person that did the plan of management, no fault of council or McMahons Park Committee, resigned part of the way through it. So then another person had to be found to complete the plan of management.

This then took till September 22 for the draft to go to council. We were very conscious of the time that it took. And then we didn't get to see the plan of management. It came before council one night and with admirable speed was with Crown Lands the next day, which was then that we saw it. It was incorrect. There was errors in it, and we didn't get the chance to correct those. So it was submitted and we were advised that once it was returned, it would go on public display for three months. At the end of the three months, because of the errors contained, it would have to go back to Crown Lands. Now, each period with Crown Lands was an average of six to nine months, so you can appreciate our concern.

In December 23, the 21st of December, and in between this, I'd been advocating many times, saying, we need to do things. Community are asking for things to be improved at McMahons Park and we can't move forward. And financially, we were in a position to, but also we couldn't apply for any grants because we couldn't get support for any of the items that we wanted to do. So 21st of December 23, we received an email from the Director of Planning informing the McMahons Park Committee that due to McMahon Park not being Crown land, but land of the Crown. The plan of management wasn't accepted. So neither Crown Land or Hawkesbury City Council were clear on the process

Of appointing Hawkesbury City Council's Crown land managers.

And to be honest, we didn't know the difference between land of the Crown and Crown land.

Sorry, Ms Hall, your time has expired. If you just want to make one more. Right.

Thank you. So we're here today now, having found out that Hawkesbury City Council is the owner, through New South Wales state title, thank you to a community member that pointed that out, that we now want to apply for Hawkesbury City Council through Crown Land to become the Crown Lands manager. So hopefully then we can correct the errors prior to it going in and move forward with McMahons Park. I ask your support in this. Thank you.

Thank you very much. May I just ask, if you just want to remain there for one moment. Any councillors have questions? Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Thank you, Angela. I'm just wondering, does the management committee still have the funds for the works that you want to do? And are you aware if those works have increased significantly in cost since you were originally going to do them? Certainly

We were going to put in an all-weather table tennis table for the youth, and we thought that that would be useful during COVID too, social distancing but still some exercise. That at that time was nearly ten thousand. It's gone up, as they have to be imported. They're in several parks throughout the area. Our fitness equipment was removed because it was rotting. We wanted to put fitness equipment round the walking path. Apparently we were advised that there was money in the budget with Council. We're now being told that possibly it may not still be there. So we've kind of lost some funding through that. But as I said previously, we can't even apply for grants because we can't get approval to go ahead with anything.

So we're at a bit of a stalemate. That's why it's important this goes ahead. Our president had had a meeting with Crown Lands, and they said if approved tonight, they would try and push it through for the 30th of June, and then we can resubmit, hopefully the corrected plan of management, and they would look to try and push that through in the six to nine months, then public display for three months. So we're still going into five, six years, where Marns Park's been at a standstill.

Thanks, Angela. Thank you. Councillor Zamprogno.

I'm prepared to move the recommendation in the business paper.

I thought you had a question for Ms Hall, no? Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.

Councillor Reardon.

Madam Mayor, I'd like to move the recommendation and ask that this be resolved. Thank you. I've been on this committee for the three terms— three terms I've been on council here.

I'll second that, Madam Mayor. We'll wait for you to speak in a moment. Thank you, Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Over to you, Councillor Reardon, thank you.

That's all I wanted to say. I'd love to see it resolved, please.

Any other councillors wishing to speak? Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Madam Mayor, and I thank Mrs Hall for coming to speak to us tonight. The management committee must seriously think they're in an episode of Yes Minister, because this has been a huge debacle all round, really. And as we've heard now, there's been missed opportunities connected to that. I'm not pointing the blame at council. It's just one of those bureaucratic situations that arises. I just wanted to check a question, if I may, that when this process, if we follow what's suggested tonight and that goes ahead, are we definitely sure that the categorisation of the land in this case will enable the specific works they want to do in the park?

Thank you, Councillor. I'll just refer to Director of City Planning. Yes,

Thank you through you, Madam Mayor. As advised by Crown Lands and also by our General Counsel, and it's also specified in the resolution that Council's agreement to the land being reserved for the purposes of public recreation and community purposes will facilitate the existing use. Staff actually have a meeting with representatives from the management committee tomorrow. I'm not sure that it's the management committee in its entirety, but the management committee to work through the plan of management and for essentially iron out any errors that went up in the original plan of management, so as we provide an amended plan of management that reflects what's on site and has the capability to facilitate what's desired on site.

Thank you. That's great, because the last thing we'd want is to find there was some other hurdle after going through the process. I'm pleased to hear that it's moving ahead, and I hope that we will do everything to expedite that process so that this can be sorted as soon as possible. And hopefully we can find in an upcoming budget some money to perhaps do the exercise equipment there if we were going to have done that. It's a shame that over the last four or five years we have seen such increases in costs, and I hope that won't mean that the park misses out on what the intended works were there. But I thank the staff for their efforts in finally getting to the bottom of this. And yeah , let's hope no other parcels of land appear that have got some questionable categorisation around them.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillors Zamprogno.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Councillor Lyons-Buckett references—yes, Minister, I was actually thinking of Monty Python. Let's recap. This was purchased on behalf of King George V, who stopped being the king in 1936. And in the 88 years that have elapsed since, our council has engaged in all kinds of improvements. I feel like asking a specious question, but I know my tongue is firmly in my cheek, whether we could send a bill to any improvements that we've made to McMahon Park since 1936 to the state government and ask them to pay for it, since they're declining to acknowledge that we are the owners or the custodians over that land. I won't put that to the general manager because I know what the answer will be, but you get my point.

Then in 2019, when we became aware of this and we asked the then state government, it took them five years to say, and I quote, We're sorry, it's not Crown land. It's land of the Crown, and therefore what you're proposing is completely impossible. That's just utterly ridiculous and bonkers. Let's get this fixed, hopefully before we all die of old age.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor.

Further to Councillor Lyons-Buckett's comments, do we have— I know we've had problems with land at Bilpin, with similar issues around who the Crown lands manager was. We've now got this parcel of land, and these , by their definition, these are parcels of land that we manage and improve or otherwise for the benefit of the community. Do we have any other parcels of land where the ownership is in question? I'm happy for that to be taken on notice, but I think it's time that we did a bit of a tally up and made sure that, given that this has happened twice already in varying circumstances both times, we need to be on top of whether we are spending money for the upkeep of King George's Gardens, or whether we are actually in control of the land that we think we are.

Surely this has knock-on implications for things like insurance as well. If we're not the owner and we think we are, or if we don't think we're the owner and in fact we are, it beggars belief, frankly, that we went through that whole Crown lands review in 2016 and the subsequent legislation in 2017, and the state government that was so keen to force that legislation through and the transfer of millions of dollars worth of management for Crown lands onto local government couldn't get all their marbles in the same bag and work out who owned what before they transferred a whole [unclear] across to local government. And here we have then members of the community and members of management committees working really hard, very often in their free time, purely out of community spirit and generosity for the upkeep of these places, and we find that in fact we're not even supposed to be doing any of this work.

I mean, this is madness. I've written, yes Minister as well. The stuffing around that has happened with the committee, with our staff. All around some bizarre, what appears on the face of it to be an exercise in semantics, is frankly ridiculous. I think we need to make sure that we're not going to get caught out again.

Thank you, Councillor. Anyone else wish to speak

Councillor Sheather. Yeah, thanks, Madam Mayor. I just echo the comments of Councillor Wheeler. And in relation to other lands that might be in a similar situation, Macquarie Park comes to mind. Another community group lost a lot of money because time ran out while we're trying to sort it out. I would hope that any action that we take doesn't take five or six years to resolve. I'm not used to that. You know, if you don't get a response, and I've mentioned before, you or your representative should be knocking on the minister's door every day till they sign off on it. Six years, a lot of days in six years. It's unfair to the community, and they're all volunteer groups that we talk about. And the work that's being done, if they're not volunteers, we're spending ratepayers' money to service the community

And to have this sort of thing happen is just frustrating. Madam Mayor, could I ask the mover, I mentioned the stuff today, point three, it's got provide a written request to the Crown to be appointed as Crown land manager reserve. Could we insert the word, where the word is to, it would read, provide a written request to the Crown that Hawkesbury City… Council be appointed as Crown Managers Reserve for the new reserve.

Let me just obtain some advice about changing Crown lands to Crown. No

No. You didn't

Say the word lands.

So what

Do you want to say? Provide a written request to—

Crown—to Crown lands. Oh, you

Didn't say lands, so that's what I was checking. Yeah, that's okay.

To Crown lands, yeah, that Hawkesbury City Council be appointed as Crown land managers

For the new reserve. Okay. Are you happy with that, Councillor Reardon? Councillor Lyons-Buckett as a seconder? Yes

Yep

That's fine. Thank you, Councillor. Anyone else wishing to speak? Right of reply, Councillor Reardon? Not necessary, thanks. All right, thank you. All those in favour, please raise your hand. In favour are Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor McMahon. Councillors Zamprogno, are you voting? And Councillor Zamprogno, I declare the item carried. The next item.

Item subject to public address is item 4.3.2, Place Plans. We have two registered speakers. The first speaker is Fiona Jermaine.

All right. Good evening, Madam Councillor, Council staff and Councillors. All right, so let's begin. So many paper and reference documents here. So I'm here as Director of the Blore Business Council, the Bells Line of Road Business Council, and I attended your March meeting and asked for an extension of time to consult on the Place Plans report, which you agreed to. The GM assured us and Councillors that we had already been consulted as a stakeholder group. So we came back to speak at the April meeting and we were informed it's not happening at the 11th hour. And we weren't informed of tonight's meeting either. We made the discovery of the item ourselves. Firstly, as a note, it's discourteous and disrespectful to us as a stakeholder group, our members, and the broader community to change the date of the meeting.

It was set to be discussed in April and now has been pushed on to May, and to not tell us of these changed arrangements, it just undermines the trust between Council and the community. Council needs a policy instructing its administration to inform people of any change in the meeting times, particularly those knowingly engaged. I've had an email exchange regarding this topic in the time period. There have been many opportunities. I'll make a recommendation on this at the end of my speech. So let's just move on to feedback on council consultations that were listed in the March 2024 report to Council as an item 4.3.2. After this March meeting, there was an extended email exchange between myself as Director of the Business Council with the General Manager making the assertion that the BLawBC had been consulted.

I was insistent that we hadn't, and if we had been, we wouldn't have requested an extension of time to do this. We note that report item 4.3.2, now before Council, has now had all reference to the consultations with community and business organisations, including BLawBC, deleted. This is the email exchange that I had, and I won't read it verbatim, but I did notify the General Manager that the evidence provided of consultation turned out to be a notification of a public exhibition. This is not a consultation. A consultation is a two-way process, and so I hereby requested that the BLawBC be removed from the stakeholder group, to which I was responded from the General Manager, I am inclined to disagree.

I don't think it was unreasonable, an unreasonable assumption from staff to assume that this consultation was ultimately effective, given the submissions that were subsequently received. Finally, when I pushed on March 25th, the General Manager wrote, Hi Fiona, no submissions were made by the BLawBC. The fact that I, a representative of the BLaw Business Council, had to spend five days exchanging emails arguing that there was no true evidence of consultation between the Council and the BLawBC is absurd. I'm a working mum. I volunteer at LACMOS representatives who come to speak at council, and to have to spend all this time back and forth, email after email, explaining and justifying that I didn't receive a consultation is really disrespectful.

And for someone who's paid an inordinate amount of money, I shouldn't have to define what consultation is either. And at a very minimum, if it's a misunderstanding of consultation, it's either that or an attempt to gaslight me and my organisation into believing we were consulted. Sorry, Mr. Mayne, I

Understand you're aggrieved, but there is rules and procedures you need to follow, and part of that is said at the start of the meeting about not saying anything untoward about anyone else in the room. Thank you.

All right. Well, let me paraphrase that I had to engage in a set of emails exchanging what a consultation should be defined as, and I think that's rather a waste of time. I have the emails here, and they can be referred to later if necessary. So let's move on then to the inclusion of community feedback on the place plans from public exhibition.

So council's insistence that we had been consulted and our knowledge that we had not, we then looked further into the feedback of the public exhibition.

We found 11 instances in the outcomes column where the outcome of the submission has apparently been included in the final draft of the place plans report. However, this is not true. You can see for yourself if you place the place plans report side by side. There is a change in formatting, but if you read the reports, these outcomes have not been listed and updated. It strikes at the integrity of council, and these are the reports that you are being asked to vote on, and they have not been amended. To include that public exhibition information. So now we get to the original purpose of our request to speak with you, which was that the Place Plan does not address disaster management, and what prompted this report was the Resilient Sydney 2018 program .

And so there is little or no consideration to the existing infrastructure. And we have, and I know my time is running out, but we do have a list of resolutions from the LawBC that are proposals for you, councillors, to consider. The first is that the Hawkesbury Place Plans be permanently set aside, as it's not a requirement of New South Wales planning or the Office of Local Government, or in the alternative, that a steering committee is established to ensure Council obtain reliable qualitative and quantitative data.

Sorry, Mr. Main, your time has expired. If I can just ask you to wrap up.

Okay. And as I mentioned, we do request that Council create a policy instructing Council administration to inform people of any changes to these matters that they speak to. And finally, that the Deputy Mayor and General Managers nominated councillor convene a meeting with the General Manager to consider breaches to the Council Code of Conduct 2023. You can reference page 5, paragraph 3.

Mr. Main, if you have a code of conduct complaint, you can put that in writing to the General Manager. I will do that. Thank you very much. Any questions, councillors? No, thank you very much. Oh, sorry, Councillor Sheather.

Fiona, there's an attachment that's three or four pages relating to comment from the open. Will you, your organisation party to any of those in the attachment?

Party to it,

Yes.

Did we consult on that?

Yes,

We did not make a submission on that.

Okay.

Were you aware of that was happening? No

We were expecting to be directly consulted via email. We did not make a direct submission under the BLPC, which was also recently incorporated at the time.

How many other groups are involved similar to yours?

In the similar position where there were

Community groups, I mean

That were said to have been consulted. I think, I believe there were eight. It's in the original table, which I don't have a copy of. It was the original table, and it includes Bolo, the Flower Club, the Bilpin Flower Club were under the same scenario.

Right. You're not listed in that group. You're not listed as consulted.

Yes, but that table has now been omitted without any annotation, apology or explanation.

Okay, thanks.

Thank you. Councillor Dogramaci.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Fiona, you are part of that group around that area, and approximately how many people do you personally know around that area to discuss, you know, what's happening in that area?

In terms of general community or our business council members? Well, the people that

You know, who know something about, you know, what's going to happen or about this Bilpin Place Plan.

There are not many that know the details of the Bilpin Place Plans.

Well, how many people do you think that you have or know about what's happening, including the consultations that— You mentioned. In

Terms of the consultations? Yes. None of the committee members of the Blaw Business Council.

So, am I correct to say that no one has been consulted?

I don't know people who have been directly consulted.

But you

Would know about that. I could speak to a handful of people who made personal submissions, not on behalf of any community representative groups.

So, as far as—you can tell us that you are not aware of anyone

Being consulted. What is your—sorry, excuse me, Councillor Dogramaci, what is your point of order?

I don't think it's productive for Councillor Dogramaci to be asking the speaker about whether other people have been consulted. It's clearly— No, I object that,

You know— Your point of order is upheld. Councillor, do you have any remaining questions?

Yes, I do. Number one is, Councillor Conolly always, you know, does this, always disrupts. So I suggest

That he keeps it quiet. He's entitled to raise a point of order, so please continue with your questions

So, as far as you know, that nobody has been consulted.

I cannot speak to whether anyone— Sorry, why does he keep, you know, interrupting me? You just upheld a point of order. The councillor has completely ignored you and also disrespected other colleagues for calling the point of order. I think something needs to be held to account here.

Thank you, Councillor. Do you have any further questions? You have asked the same question on repeat. Yeah

But you are the mayor and then you should have, you know, some kind of a control.

So what I said Thank you, Councillor. The point of order is upheld. Do you have any further questions that you have not asked so far? That's all. Thank you, Councillor. Thank you, Mr. Mayne. The next registered speaker is Lionel Buckett. Hello,

Councillors and staff.

And Mayor ,

I'd like

To say

I

Agree with everything that Fiona has said, so shorten what I have to say. At the last council meeting when we came, and it became apparent that it looked as if council had claimed that we'd consulted, but we hadn't, didn't think we'd been consulted.

And I noticed that the bowling club had been consulted on the list that was attachment three to that March meeting, which is two pages of organisations that were consulted, and that's now gone. And I think what's happened, well, it appears that's gone because councillors aren't confident that they have consulted with those organisations.

So at that meeting, I said I had no recollection that the club had been consulted.

And I think council assured us that it had been consulted. So we asked for the emails. I could— well, I've got six copies of the emails that council sent. So there's the email council sent to us to show the consultation. Then there's an email that we did find, which withdrew the email that was consulting us. So could I hand those around, councillors could have a look? No,

No, you can't. It has to be done with the leave of the chair, and that needs— we don't table documents at meetings. Thank you.

Right. Well, basically council sent us a screenshot of the email that was sent out,

And

On the screenshots, Kurrajong Bowling Club, Bowen Mountain Association, Brag at Bilpin, Colo Heights SPA, McDonald Valley Association, Pitt Town Progress, Upper Colo Association, Audrey Martin, Secretary of Rotary Club Kurrajong and North Richmond, in the same email that the club was sent. So we couldn't find the email, and I thought, well, the council's right. We have been consulted. They've sent us a photo of the email that they sent. So when we couldn't find it, my secretary suggested that we do a search on the person that sent it. We did a check for that, and we came up with an email that said Cameron Scarron would like to recall the message Hawkesbury Place Plans. So it appears that at least all those organisations that I named and the bowling club were sent an email, and then within a minute a recall email had been sent.

I didn't actually know you could do a recall email, but apparently you can do a recall email, depending on the system on how long you can take to do that. So I think it's fairly serious because it raises a question like, is it a common practice of the council to do consultation by email in bulk? And then withdraw them, so you create a record, and then withdraw the record, and essentially we didn't receive it, so we couldn't, didn't find it until we did a laborious search about emails.

So I think it needs to be investigated. How many times has that happened before? Who benefits from it? Is it widespread? Has community consultation been, you know, have councillors been told community's been consulted when in fact they haven't been consulted?

So I don't know, you know, I don't make any accusations other than that email went and was withdrawn within the minute. So a record was made, and then the people that were consulted weren't actually consulted, and they're important organisations that were in that list of emails.

The other thing I'd like to just say is that the place plans doesn't address resilience. So the management statement on it says it is for resilience. Resilience, it should be addressing resilience, like things for flood mitigation, for bushfire preparedness. But none of those plans have got that in it. And it's only was saying in the list of things that were going to be done to those plans, they're not done. I looked for half an hour, the two screens and the two plans, and they're identical except for a bit of font change.

Thank you, Mr. Buckett. Your time has expired.

So—

Just one

Well, that's— I'll just wrap up, and so I think it's like, it's serious. Who knows what it is, but it needs to be investigated to see if it's widespread and been going on for very long.

Thank you, Mr. Buckett. Are there any questions, councillors? Deputy Mayor.

Thanks, Lionel. Given all that you've said, what would you like to happen now?

I'll have to do that from memory. I actually did have a list of what I would like to happen now.

Yeah, okay. What we want to consider is

A couple of options, but it's really for the council, like set it aside permanently because it's so inaccurate and it doesn't— It appears like we went through that list of attachment three, none of those organisations, like two pages of them, possibly weren't consulted.

So an alternative would be a steering committee of councillors be convened to oversee the council administration obtainment of reliable quantitative and qualitative data on which to base the report, that the data that can be replicated and see if it can be replicated and the same results obtained or varied when it's consulted with properly.

B, ensure the report is constructed to an acceptable standard for a government publication. That is, the document contains no mistakes, and it's followed through. I think you've got to investigate it first and then see how to fix it or decide to get rid of it, is like my view. But I think it is an important document. It should be done properly in the first place.

Thank you, Deputy Mayor. Any further questions? Councillor Zamprogno.

Thank you. Lionel, thank you for coming in. As we all know, this has been the subject of a lot of back and forth. And, you know, we all recognise that this place plan is an aspirational document. It's not particularly binding in any respect, but it makes a statement about the tone and scale and desired future for a particular locality. And when we're talking about somewhere as beautiful as Bilpin, I don't blame you for being concerned. But you still haven't articulated anything in the place plan as it stands that's so grossly at odds with what we hope Bilpin will be in the future as that it demands to be shelved . This document should be shelved. Could you tell us what's so awful about the document?

The council's known for quite some time the document's got a lot of defects in it. So some awfulness things about it are, for Bilpin, there's a public toilet marked in the baker, the baker's shop. This plan's been drawn up by somebody who has no idea of Bilpin. It's got a public square identified on an area of land that's privately owned that has a heritage building on it, the old post office. So you look at it and you think, well, you know, you're going to resume the land and knock down the heritage building to build a public square. Obviously, you know, that it just shouldn't be there. It's like it's so poor quality. Billpin's got a couple of cafes in it. The plans marked with pop-up cafes out the front of the existing businesses.

Bells Line Road Business Council, we had a meeting of about, I think we had 40 or 50 business owners from Bells Line Road through to Kurrajong, and we brought out all the place plans for them all to look at and comment. They hadn't seen it before. So the Kurrajong one has something like five zebra crossings in 60, 70 metres. So they're all—they just, they haven't had care taken with them, and they're inaccurate. And these are documents that council staff can use to, like, apply for grants. So, like, there's pushbike tracks that go from Mount Tomah to Bilpin to Mount Lagoon to Kurrajong Heights worth hundreds of millions of dollars. There's, you know, each one that you go through have these obvious defects.

But I think it's, you know, what do you say? I find it embarrassing to have a document that is so inaccurate.

Thank you, Mr. Bucket. Any further questions? Councillor Dogramaci.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Lionel, thank you for coming in today. If I may, with your permission, Madam Mayor, I ask the same question. How many people do you know in that area that have been consulted?

Well, the business council meeting, we had about 50 small business people turn out, and none of them had seen it before or knew about it.

Okay. And Madam Mayor, later on maybe you'd be kind enough to direct a question about this company that prepared this plans, Mac Studio. Council ,

You can ask the staff that question during the debate.

Just to save time, that's all I'm trying to do. There's no point

Asking the

Register speaker . That's all right. Give it to my ignorance.

No, no, you can ask during the debate.

All right. Now, Lionel, if I understand that area, New Public Square, I think that, you know, you mentioned that, am

I correct to say that, you know, it's council land or it's not?

It's probably, it's the old post office in Bilpin. It's a heritage building. And who owns it? It's privately owned. And do you know the person? The people that own the Grumpy Baker. Okay

And have you spoken with them, whether council has approached? I have

Talked to Michael about it. I have talked to him about it, but he's, I think he has troubles with the council with it. He was going to put in a car park and a toilet, but that hasn't happened. Okay.

I have one couple more questions. One of them is, I see a temporary cafe and trucks. Do we have enough space, you know, for trucks, you know, to park around that area?

Well, it's already a car parking area where trucks park. Yes. It's just a very weird description, the trucks part of the description. The pop-up cafes I can identify with is probably something you do in like, you know, Richmond or Windsor. Yes. But, you know, the business people get very offended when you do a plan and you stick a pop-up cafe out the front of their cafe

That's permanent. You've been living in Bilpin for so many years, and you know the area better than many people, certainly better than I do. Do you think that, you know, this plan would suffice to draw business and tourists in that area as it is, compared to, you know, what we have right now?

The business people laughed at it, the 40 or 50 that turned up for the consultation with the plan. They did what? Sorry? The business people that looked at it couldn't believe it and laughed at it. So anyone local who's been around in any of those towns for a while is going to know, you know, what's stupid or what could be there. So it's just the way the consultation's been done, in my opinion. I could be wrong, but— Okay.

Thank you, Councillor. Thank you. Mr— oh, sorry, Councillor Wheeler. Mr Buckett, just one final question from me. I understand and appreciate what you've said about the consultation, and you're here tonight speaking on behalf of the Kurrajong Heights Bowling Club.

Well, no, I actually, last time I was speaking on behalf of the Blue Mountains Hawkesbury Bushfire Alliance, because we want council to be doing things like putting in water storage and neighbourhood safer places, and they're resilience things that this plan could show or should show. I'll

Just ask for clarification: on behalf of any of those groups you're talking about, or even yourself, have you made a written submission?

Yeah, I made a written submission myself. Great. Thank you, Mr Buckett.

All right, thank you. Thank you very much.

Councillor Wheeler . Oh, sorry, sorry, just before you do, sorry, Councillor, sorry, my mistake. There were some accusations raised during the discussion there by the registered speakers. I would like to give the general manager an opportunity if you wanted to respond to some of those accusations.

Sorry, through you, Madam Mayor, I might just ask the Director City Planning just to talk through some of the back and forth that happened between the council meetings around trying to clarify the extent of the engagement that had happened, not only more recently, but also some of the extended back history on this.

Thank you. I think this is important before we enter debate. Director of City Planning. Yeah,

Thank you. Through you, Madam Mayor. It was actually brought to our attention, I believe in the first instance, from Mr. Bucket that he was of the understanding that there was consultation referenced in the original report that came to council that didn't accurately reflect the consultation that they had on record that had taken place. Subsequent to that question coming in, the director economic— sorry, the manager, economic development, looked through the historical files with regards to records that had gone out to advise of the public exhibition period with regards to the plans. On the 11th of May in 2023, there was an email from the mayor, Councillor Sarah McMahon, to a number of stakeholders that included the Bells Line of Road Business Council email, which was also CC'd to multiple members of the Bells Line of Road Business Council notifying of the place plan exhibition.

That also included the personal email addresses of Bells Line of Road Business Council members. In addition to that , the original report that came to council did reference consultation that actually occurred on site in June 2023 at two locations in Bilpin. With regards to the specific correspondence, went back and forth between Ms Jermaine and the general manager with regards to the consultation that had occurred. It was noted that the original report had referenced consultation to the, I think it was the Kurrajong Heights Bowling Club, and Mr Bucket brought to our attention at that time that there was an email that was received, that they had record of that immediately being recalled after it was sent.

Notwithstanding, Council's records still reflect that the email did go out. We're trying to locate the evidence of that email being recalled, which we haven't actually been able to find in our systems. But notwithstanding, that was provided by Mr Bucket back to staff. So this information was outlined somewhat in a council briefing, but there was also confirmation sent in an email to Ms Jermaine that the consultation, or the reflection of the consultation that would be brought forward to Council tonight would accurately reflect what Council had on record in terms of advice that was going out.

Thank you very much. Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. I'd like to move that we defer the place plans to a Councillor workshop, and I'll outline why I think that's probably the best— I just need

A seconder . Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thanks. I don't want to drag this out. I know it's been to us at a briefing before. I think we need, though, something that's a bit more active than a briefing. We've got a document that many members of the community aren't happy with, and it seems to me that—and look, I'm not deliriously happy with it either, I have to say. I can understand the purpose of it. I think there is some good information in parts of this document. I think the information around what... What's required for resilience, the regional qualities that we should be measuring ourselves against, the resilient place features, I think that is useful. I think the aggregate information about what the community has told us with respect to the various towns and to the LGA as a whole, I think is really useful.

I think several of the character statements are good and workable. I think the sticking point for many of the community, and it appears to be certainly from what we've heard from Mr Bucket tonight, appears to be the place plans, these mapped ideas of what could happen in the future. And I think having spent a bit of time when I was newly elected looking at place plans and planning , these are incredibly subjective, and I think we're never going to please everybody with these. But at the moment we're not pleasing anybody, and that I think is really problematic. I'm not sure that there's an urgency in getting these documents together that overrides our need to have them better suit the communities that we're attempting to cater for.

And so I think we probably need to pull back, and that may result in us perhaps just pulling back to the character statements and engaging in a really active consultation where we take those character statements individually to communities. We used to be good at this before COVID as a council. We were brave. We stood in front of the community and we presented them with our future visions at public meetings that people could choose to attend. It was really hard often. Some of them were tough. Our staff coped with significant abuse at those meetings. Some of us did too. But that's an essential part of democracy and of representation. And I think we need to move back to that as a position. We can't expect to have all of these difficult conversations online or through online engagement.

And I think perhaps we, I think we should pull back to the character statements, take those out to the communities that they belong to, and ask them what they want. They will have ideas about what should go into their town centre spaces. I look at the plans for Wilberforce, for example, the community that I live in. And, you know, firstly , there are typos and word misuses that make it a jarring read. But some of it's just not, it doesn't work. There's a focus on fire control centre. That's moving. No one, unless you're in the RFS, no one's that fussed about fire control, I've got to tell you. They've missed the town's biggest asset, the Australiana Pioneer Village. It's hanging off the bottom of the map.

The Macquarie Schoolhouse isn't there. The cemetery, the Blackett-designed church, none of those things are there. The heritage ship sailed in about 1985 in Wilberforce, apart from those features that I've mentioned that aren't even on there. There's no park on the corner of King and Putty Roads. It's a path beneath the trees. It's picturesque, but it's not a park. Whereas when I look at the character statement for Bligh Park, it's much better. It directly details the housing plans, the walkability plans for the future. It's tangible. The Wilberforce character statement is fluff. And I think the community needs to be able to have an input into these. We need to take these lists that the community gave us and show directly how the issues that they've presented us with will be addressed.

And how we'll marry them against these resilient place features. I think now is probably time for a strategic withdrawal, but I think that's a discussion that we need to have in a workshop. And one of the key things that we discuss is how we actively consult with the community to get these place plans in place so that the community, they reflect what the community wants, not what we're putting together in the hope that it will get us over this hump.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Madam Mayor, and Councillor Wheeler just touched on a point I was going to ask her to add, but it's probably not necessary, which was that within that workshop, we formulate an appropriate consultation strategy that involves face-to-face meetings, because I think without having that opportunity, we are just not— we're missing the opportunity to really capture firsthand what our community are trying to tell us. And I agree essentially with what the speakers had raised about missing gaps in the consultation process, but also with what Councillor Wheeler has just said about this document, which I accept it's a high-level document. It's the beginning of a process from which we can get detailed plans around our community centres, which is what we want.

And I think there's great value in the process, but we really have to get it right. We can't have a document that's got local inaccuracies that is adopted as a document within this council. So I think that the bones of it are there through the character statements. It's certainly reflective of what we think through surveys and things our community wants to retain in various areas. But that's not necessarily translated into those graphical place plans for each place, which is where the inaccuracies occur. The feedback we do have is only limited in scope, but it gives us a good starting point of lists of what people see as a vision for their localities. But to fully ensure that it's an adequate reflection of that, we want to be sure that maximum consultation has occurred, that everybody who feels they want to have some input into the process has been given the opportunity to do that.

So I think that if we do go ahead and have a workshop around it, we need to not just think that we know, the 12 of us, because we don't. So really we would be looking at how we will utilise those character statements and go out into the community with a plan of how we will maximise the feedback that we can get from the community.

And I think that there's some ambiguous statements in there as well. So we have to ensure that we have a consistency between our strategic plans, which we have, and our planning documents, that that doesn't conflict with what we're going out in a document to say that we want to keep an area in a specific way. So I look forward to hoping that this will pass as a motion and doing more work on this. I know it's been work done and I don't think that that has been wasted because I think we've started the process and we have captured some valuable information and feedback, but it still has a long way to go. And I think that we want to get it right. It will be valuable to have that so that underneath that, when we have our individual master plans for townships, we can really move forward with translating, you know, for the vision of the future of those various localities.

And we have to be mindful that within those various communities, there will be very differing points of view. So we also have to ensure that we have a consultation process that enables those different perspectives to be considered and then to arrive at what would hopefully be some sort of mutual acceptance of what visions for particular areas are.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Sheather.

Yeah, thanks, Madam Mayor. When we did have this workshop before, and we chucked around a fair bit of it, but as Councillor Wheeler said, with Wilberforce, her and I made some comments about Wilberforce, about why would you put a cycleway on probably one of the worst truck roads in our city, and that probably the two biggest areas where we've got the opportunity to enhance Wilberforce is on the top and bottom of the page, the Pioneer Village and Wilberforce Park.

But there's a proposal to put a playground in that corner there. I planted those trees in the bicentennial in '88 , and there used to be a shop there many years ago. It's a good part of the town to be open because you have trucks coming down the Putty Road and see through it. Now we're proposing, in a plan like this, to put a kiddies' playground there. That's pretty smart. But it's worse than that. One of the things that I've been on about since I've been elected is about communication with our community,

And it seems that we're lacking quite a bit. That's not saying that we haven't got a newspaper. It's pretty hard to get out to the public. But we had two speakers here tonight that have spoke about this item before, and come tonight and said one of them was the group that they represent. That it's not on the mailing list and the like. So not only are we not getting to all the public that we need to, but it would seem that some of the people are going out of their way to work with us to come up with areas for their locality that we're not listening, not only to them, but similar people to put on a shortlist. I'm sure that they wouldn't mind getting flooded to be requested to give ideas and the likes. But to come and address Council twice saying that that hasn't been the case,

That bothers me. I don't know how we assess moving forward in relation to consultation, but we've got to get better at it. And as I said, it's something that's concerned me for a long while. So with this plan, that it does set direction for other plans in relation to grants and the likes. There's a great opportunity to work on this, to look at projects that it's necessarily required in the community. And getting back to Wilberforce again, which both in particular, both of us, Councillor Wheeler and myself, spoke about opposite where it's got cafe and shops there. There's a footpath that's now not there anymore because the road's not wide enough and the trucks were going up on the footpath. Now we've got a bit of blue metal in there, which is 300 mil deep because the trucks have been driving on it in wet weather.

They're the sort of things the community want fixed, no big deal. And I know it's not our responsibility, but it is our responsibility to kick the tin with other organisations that work with us, and the Roads and Traffic Authority are one of them. They're important things to the community. They drive past, they see the footpath damaged, they see a truck parked or not, they're concerned about it. And the last thing I think they want to see is that footpath replaced with a bike track. The road's not wide enough there now. So, Madam Mayor, I think there's quite a few things. I would ask you, in relation to the document that's before us tonight, is it holding up any other process that we're working on to achieve particular outcomes?

And I encourage on bike track for one of them.

Thanks, Councillor. I'll just ask the Director of City Planning.

Yeah, through you, Madam Mayor. Yeah, no, they're not.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillors, and...

Thank you. I feel like I'm in a terrible bind about this, in the sense that, like most people, I have an innate distaste for things just dragging on and dragging on and dragging on. And when things have gone backwards and forwards so many times, I think there's a natural tendency to say, 'Oh, just be done with it. Pass it or shelve it, one or the other.' But I'm stayed because I have such enormous respect for those community leaders in the Bilpin community, including Lionel, when he says that, you know, that community... Hasn't been consulted adequately, and that what's in that document doesn't reflect, in his honest and sincere opinion, the aspirations or hopes for what that community has for a place like Bilpin.

Mind you, we're not only talking about Bilpin; we're talking about place plans for a variety of other localities. And I suppose the question that I'm left with is, from where arises the need for this document in the first place? I remember a briefing we had some time ago where we were given this kind of jigsaw puzzle about our various planning documents, some of which were binding and some of which were aspirational. A community strategic plan is an aspirational document. A residential housing strategy is a binding document; it guides our policy. A place plan has to fit somewhere into this, and it fits in with our LEP, our DCP, our LRPP — do you remember the local regional? No, LRSS, local regional — LSPS.

There we go, local strategic planning statement. And unless I'm convinced that this has a necessary role, we're slicing the pie in such a way that a place plan is necessary because it informs our forward planning in a particular way, then I think if we can't be certain about that, then that's why we feel the malaise that we do in this room at this time about whether we need this and whether we should further postpone this for yet another round of consultation until everybody is happy. And to reflect on the remark that somebody else made earlier, I don't think this is the kind of thing — Danielle, you said it — that you can't please everybody. So I'm happy to defer this to a workshop, but I suppose my patience is running short.

Not only am I unconvinced of the need for this document, but I think— Council has done as much as it can to consult with those communities, and that some people will just never be happy. But let's see what happens at a workshop. Happy to support the motion.

Sorry, Deputy Mayor, I'm just unwell for a moment. Are you able to take the chair, please? Thank you. Councillor Dogramaci, I believe you had your light on. Sorry?

You had your light on. You wish to speak? Yes. Yes,

Thank you. Thank you,

Mr. Deputy Mayor

Madam Mayor told me that, you know, I could ask the questions later on if there's nobody else who's going to make any comment. Two things that I would like to know, whether you would be kind enough to direct my two questions to management . Number one, how did we or the council come about to hire this company, MEC? I assume that they are from Sydney. And the second question is that how much did we pay to this company? Thank you.

General Manager.

Thank you. Through you, Deputy Mayor. Both of those questions, we would need to take on notice, Councillors, if there's particular concerns around recent community engagement. I'm not sure that

Putting the consultant in the position of wearing that is necessarily true or accurate. I think that most of that responsibility lies with Council. Certainly the earlier engagement, yes, was with the consultant, but most of the recent work was with Council staff.

Councillor Dogramaci, follow-up question. Well,

I don't know

Whether it did. This reply, you know, is directed to my questions. How did we find this company? Did we put a tender out, and who interviewed them, and who decided, you know, to hire this company? And as far as I know, that we have at least came to an agreement that at least in Bilpin, no consultation was carried out. I don't know the other places. So did we just touch the owner of the person? It is warm, get in, and how much did we pay?

The General Manager answered that, saying she would have to take it on notice, which means she cannot give you the answer now. You can get the answer later.

And through you, Deputy Mayor, Councillor, if you turn to page 27 of the agenda, to assert that no community consultation was undertaken in Bilpin is wrong, in fact.

Okay, thank you. Any further speakers? Councillor Conolly

Thank you. I'm a bit unsure of where to take this. I am probably inclined to support the motion before us. I would be equally happy to leave it for now . And not spend any more time and money on this. I agree with Councillor Zampogna that, having seen the finished documents, I'm not sure of their exact purpose. It's true to say that not everyone in a community will ever be happy with the outcome, but I also feel it was, in hindsight, incredibly ambitious to think we could do ten of these there is at once and do them all well. Obviously these are in-depth processes. I'm looking at Bligh Park because that's where I live, and, you know, I'm looking at it, we've selected less than half of Bligh Park in a random circle, and the things in that circle look fine, but there's not really a lot of explanation as to why there's nothing outside that circle, similar to the comments made about Wilberforce.

I don't think we have to spend any money to have a councillor workshop. I guess I'm just foreshadowing that I would be taking the view that if we're still not getting this right, that let's not fall for the sunk cost fallacy here that we've already spent so much time and money on it, we have to get it right. If we're not there yet, I don't know, there's huge value in spending more money getting it right.

Councillor Veigel. Yeah,

Thank you, Mr Deputy Mayor. I'm inclined to agree with Councillor Conolly and the other councillors. I too probably would like to see it deferred, but have to be realistic. We are going to kick it down the can, and whether we get to resolve this with this term of council, I doubt it. I think there's only about five meetings to rock and roll. If that's the place, and I've heard from the Director of City Planning it won't hold up any of the improvements within the community,

I'll be voting for the deferral. I am in nature a perfectionist, so I want the document to be accurate. If something came across my table, I like the dot the i's, cross the t's and have it right. I'm not an expert in the built environment. I'm not an expert in many of the areas, but obviously there's a concern with my colleagues around this chamber and also the community. That's got to be right. So I grew with it, so I'll be voting for the deferral. Thank you.

Thank you. Any further speakers? Councillor Cudlis.

Thank you, Deputy Mayor.

I agree that this process is probably not going to get any better, and I was—it was quite disconcerting sitting here and hearing the problems about the way we engaged, because I note on page 28 of the business paper, we had community engagement forums, town centre CARE factor surveys, town centre plan experience surveys, online engagement surveys, pop-up engagement stalls, businesses engaged through business newsletters and industry, online surveys, stakeholder meetings. I mean, we've done all that, and we're still at this stage where we have — we don't have a document that we're all happy with. Now, I agree with Councillor Wheeler that back in the first term when we were first elected, we had quite interesting town hall meetings, and I think that they were—I think that they had their uses, and I think possibly they could have been better than the engagement we had for this type of project.

But having said that, I think we've done this to death, and, well, look, I'll vote for these plans being put to a workshop because I think we have to have that discussion about whether we actually do ditch them. Anyway, so. We have put a lot of work into this and I'm, like Councillor Zamprogno, I'm wavering from my goodness, can we not get this over the line to let's just dump it. But anyway , it's unfortunate that we're at where we are. So I think one thing we can do is we can look at the type of engagement we have for the type of project. And I think that's something that we should all think about and possibly make some improvements. So yes, that's my take on the situation. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor. Deputy Mayor.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Look, I'm all for community consultation. I always thought that the more of that we can get, the better. It is an imprecise art or science. It's very difficult to say , and at the end of your process, yes, we've done all the consultation. I don't think you can ever say that. You can only do the best you can with the resources you've got. But one thing I have wanted to point out is that this document is very much a broad brush document, and I think some people are looking at it with, looking, trying to look into the fine detail of, you know, this telegraph pole should be 150 metres to the left or whatever. That's not what this document is about. It's about a broad set of aims for that area.

So what I would, I'm happy to support the motion that we defer, but I just want everyone to realise that it's never going to come back as a plan, a total plan for that area. It's not designed to do that. It's very broad brush, and that's all it's going to be.

Thank you, Deputy Mayor. Just to confirm, I walked in on Councillor Kotlash speaking. Did I miss a councillor in between Councillor Zamprogno and Councillor Kotlash? Councillor Conolly. Yeah Oh, and Councillor Veigel, thank you.

And Councillor Dogramaci,

God, I missed a lot. Okay.

Is there anyone left?

Councillor Reardon. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'd like to move that we take no further action in this matter.

You'd like to put the vote? Is that what you're saying? You'd like to put the vote? All right. Or was that an amendment?

Yes. Yes. You're moving an amendment? Yes. To? We take no further action in this matter.

So therefore your amendment is the recommendation to adopt the— No, sorry. No

No. To— No, not to take any further action, not to have the workshop. Just— okay . But did you want to do something with the plans? No, I don't feel— I think it's causing a lot of angst in the community, and I don't think it's the way to go.

Okay . I just need to— what would you like the recommen— sorry, what would you like your amendment to say exactly?

That we take no further action with these place plans at the moment. Okay, thank you. Anyone willing to second that?

Second that for discussion. Not sure yet.

Okay, just one moment.

We'll just get that up on the board.

Would anyone like to, before we get that up on the board, would anyone like to speak on the amendment? Council Sorry, Councillor Sheather, I can't see your light, Councillor Conolly, if it was on or not. If you can just put your mic— I know it's not, but I can't see it. Just raise it a little.

Thank you, Councillor Sheather.

Yeah, thanks, Madam Mayor. There's a lot of work gone into this document, and, you know, I think we're obligated. And people in the community have been consulted and the like. And I wasn't suggesting they hadn't been. I was just suggesting we need to go further. But obviously there's people in our community that's really concerned, and our speakers indicated that very clearly. And I think it's incumbent on us to look, whether we look at all the places in the plan, or maybe we select a couple and work hard on those. To chuck it out, you know, that's unfair on the staff and the people that have been, that have been involved, and expect something from us out of it. So, you know, if we have a workshop and it gets chucked out, well, that's the decision of council.

But I think that we need to at least talk about it and see what opportunities are within the plans, in particular locations, and concentrate on those and those communities. It's obvious within the document there's about three pages there from people at Bilpin that individuals are not mature, but somebody up there has taken the time to put a lot of effort into it. And I think it's worthy of us to at least discuss whether we progress that.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Kotlash.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. In the early stages of the place plans, when we had what I can remember a rather good report on the place scores back in whenever it was, 2018, 19. This notion of place plans was introduced to us as a vehicle for being able to secure , more easily secure, grant funding for various projects. And I just wonder how—could we have just some commentary on that, and whether, just for the sake of this public debate, I suppose, whether it's worth

Putting a not-so-perfect plan up in the notion that we will be able to get grant funding. I know that sometimes in funding bodies, if you have a place plan or a plan that directs the way forward, that's always seen as favourable. Can I just have some commentary on whether ditching these plans will have any impact on that, please?

Thank you. Director of City Planning. Yeah,

Thank you. Through you, Madam Mayor. Look, certainly, and Councillor Kotlash, the consultation that you mentioned earlier was consultation that was undertaken to inform the development of the place plans rather than specifically on the draft document itself. So certainly having the place plans put together, so it is an amalgamation of the outcomes of the place score, previous consultation, community strategic plan consultation. For that reason, I guess the place plans do serve a purpose in addition to the additional consultation that was undertaken on them because they are an aggregate of that previous information that's been received. So certainly that consultation doesn't go away if the place plans aren't endorsed or noted by Council tonight, and that could certainly be used as the basis to demonstrate if there's any grant funding opportunities that Council does have some sense of what the community has said at a point in time are its aspirations for place.

Can I ask a follow-up question? If we endorse these place plans, what is the capacity for changing them without having to go through the rigmarole of formal consultation? Are we able to sort of have them as working living documents? General Manager.

Thank you, through you, Madam Mayor. In short, Councillors, we had always envisaged that these documents are simply providing a foundation for which further detailed work would come. So whilst we can make these plans really whatever Council envisages them to be, so they can be a working document if we would like. But really we thought the in-depth work would come at that master planning stage, and/or when opportunities came our way for grant funding or for works that were ancillary to state government infrastructure projects, for example, where they may come to us and they may say, What is your vision for this particular town or village? that we have a document there that is easily able to be referenced, that has been through that community engagement early on in the formulation of the plan, and that that would be the purpose of the document.

So does having it endorsed by Council assist us in having those conversations? Yes. Is it absolutely critical to the Director City Planning's point? Not necessarily.

Thank you. Deputy Mayor.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Look, I know where Councillor Reardon's coming from, but— I think her amendment sort of closes the door on this and says, that's it. I don't really want to do that. I'd be happier if her amendment said something like that we receive and note the report, and leave it open so that this council or a future council could build on it and change it and do whatever they want. So at the moment, if the amendment stays as it is, I won't be voting for it. But I'm also happy to have it as a workshop, but I think we've chucked it around at a workshop already, and I don't know whether that's going to be very constructive.

Thank you, Deputy Mayor. Councillor Reardon, were you open to any of those comments, or are you happy with your amendment? I've taken that all on board, and I'd like to stay with the amendment, please. Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Lines-Buckett. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I am a little surprised that anyone would consider wasting the work that's been done because inherently, there's quite a lot of value in it. We have various commitments through our Community Strategic Plan and through other documents to prepare master plans for our town centres, and this is part of that process that will enable us to have an overarching document that oversees for each of those localities and also for our major town centres as well.

How, you know, we have the character statements and the things up above what we would have in a master plan, which, of course, has been explained that that would be the fine detail and would require much more consultation than this has. Or, well, this should have had more consultation, but that would be another level of consultation to do that. I think it's a shame, and I think it's easy to see in hindsight, but probably it would have been better to have a session where the consultants spoke, maybe at a councillor briefing, so the councillors could have had some input at the start rather than sort of the end may have been much more beneficial. I would not like to see the money wasted that's gone into this.

I, you know, we need to utilise any money we pay out to be able to collect data and information, even if that's only a starting point, and we have to build on that and expand on the consultation around that. There are various opportunities. I would think, as was raised by the speakers, the opportunities around factoring in for resilience building within our town centres is one area where grant funding is a primary source of how to get those various things done. So I think that we do need to have these documents, and I would not like to see it go to waste. So I'm speaking against the amendment. I won't be supporting that, and I'll be supporting the original. Original motion, if this doesn't pass.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Djuric.

Thank you. I just wanted to say that I couldn't support the amendment as it stands. We've got a community group that have come here. They've put the effort to come in here and put something forward that they feel we should be looking at. I'm sort of, well, I'm agreeing with the Deputy Mayor that it'd be nice if it was an open document, like a working document, that we could just take the information from the community group and look at doing what we can if we can. But as it stands, I can't support the amendment. Thanks.

Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak on the amendment?

I'll just say a few words. I do appreciate, Councillor Reardon, where you're coming from. I, though, would still like to have these plans in play in some way , because there has been a considerable amount of time, money and energy to put them in place. So unless the amendment was tweaked somehow, I couldn't support the amendment, because I do believe there is value to these documents. And while we haven't got it right yet, and that's pretty obvious, I don't want to see that work go to waste. So that's my view. Anyone else wishing to speak, or we'll put the amendment? No. Therefore, we'll put the amendment. Those in favour of the amendment, please raise your hand. In favour are Councillor Reardon.

Those against the amendment, please raise your hand. Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor McManus. I declare the amendment lost. The motion is the motion that was previously debated. The Council defer the place plans to a Councillor workshop. Is there anyone else who has not spoken on the motion that wishes to speak? I'll just go back to, looks like pretty much everyone nearly did. I'll just make some of my comments on the motion. I want to thank the community members who did come in tonight voicing their concerns.

I do believe, though, there does appear to be two sides to the story, and we somehow need to find our way into the middle. Suffice to say that it doesn't mean that your submissions or your words tonight will be dismissed. I believe that these documents are important for Council to have, and they are important to get right. I do wish to just read something from the business paper that I think pretty much sums up the intent of these documents, and that's from page 25. Having place plans in place positions a council to apply for grants to assist with undertaking a more detailed design process for each town centre or village that, in turn, will guide and direct infrastructure delivery and possible funding streams for completion of the work.

Based on the feedback received during the consultation process, the towns and villages of Bilpin and Kurrajong indicated a high interest for a detailed master planning process, which was evident in the comments tonight. In the absence of additional grant funding to assist with the development of detailed designs and master plans, funding for this work will be a consideration for future operational plans on a priority basis. What that is basically saying there is we have to work within the resources that we have. We are not a council with endless resources to be able to fund, at this point in time, sufficiently detailed plans. Other councillors have touched on this tonight. These are high-level plans.

Hands down, we have to get them right. Absolutely we do, and I'm happy to support the workshop to do that. But these are not going to be the final product of what these towns and villages are going to look like. They are a starting point. I do really just want to confirm that. They are a starting point. The opposite of what could happen is that we don't have anything at all, and I don't want that either, and I don't want the work to have gone to waste. So we will have that workshop. The 12 of us will work with the staff to get those place plans correct. If there is the need for engagement and consultation further, then we will. But I really want to reiterate, these are not saying this is what your town or village is going to look like.

They are a high-level document where we can hopefully source further funding to be able to then put something more detailed together. All right. That being said, I'll just confirm again, no one else wishing to speak on the motion. Right of reply is Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. I think we've sort of brought ourselves in full circle. I'll just respond to a few of the things that were said. People have spoken about their patients running out and the lengthy process, and I think there is some concern from a sunk cost perspective on some of this. But I think it's quite clear from the statements in the business paper and from the information that's in this document that these place plans fulfil a need. What we need to do is make sure that we have enough input for them to fill that need as best they can. I think there's some confusion about what the document is meant to deliver, whether it's resilience or planning or both. I don't think they're mutually exclusive, and I think that's probably something that we need to discuss when we get to the workshop stage.

I envisage a really active workshop rather than a briefing. As an elected body, we have fallen into the trap of sitting in a room with the staff talking at us and/or on Zoom, which is worse, and us passively receiving that information, asking a few questions and toddling off home. I think the staff need more engagement from us about these things that really matter. I think we also have to be cognisant of the fact that while we are elected as community representatives, we are not the community, and that's the missing step. So after we've had a crack at our input in a workshop, I think we then need to go to the stage where we actively take these to the community and ask them. And if in a session where people can bounce ideas around, and I know that's hard and time consuming, but I think that's rather than...

Rather than presenting things to people in ones and twos, I think that those active discussions with people in groups often yields something that's greater than the sum of its parts. I agree that these need to be living documents. I also think that there is merit in having these done as a group, as a package that covers more than one or two town centres. There's an even-handedness about all the town centres being dealt with at one time. It's really easy to look at one town over another and pour resources, planning resources, funding resources, infrastructure resources into one or two towns because they are better organised or better represented or make more noise. What that leads to is an LGA of haves and have-nots.

And I think the fact that this document attempts to deal with a number of villages and town centres together is laudable and something that we shouldn't lose. The place that I would like to see us get to with these, and maybe we will end up retreating to the character statements to begin with, but I would like these documents to lead us to a really proactive planning space with the community, not instead of the community, not us speaking for the community, but us as the Hawkesbury determining what the Hawkesbury looks like as we go forward. We don't want planning to happen to us. We want to drive that planning.

We can't passively accept the future that will be delivered to the Hawkesbury if we just sit back and watch. We deserve better than that, and we need to demand better than that. That's our job. These documents can do that, but we have to actively engage with them and work harder at it. Thanks.

Thank you, Councillor. All those in favour, please raise your hand. In favour are Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Durick, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Stenprogno, Councillor McMahon. Those against? Councillor Reardon. I declare the motion carried.

Public address is notice of motion 1, item 6.1.1, staff resourcing. I call on Mr Michael Wont.

Thanks, Mayor and Councillors. Councillors, I'm somewhat surprised by this notice of motion from Councillor Lyons Buckett. I am surprised because I would have thought the information sought in the notice of motion would have been already available to Councillors so that they could fulfil their role, which is to ensure, as far as possible, the financial sustainability of Council. And if Councillors do not know the staffing levels, and we don't, required, and we don't, how do you determine the financial needs of the Council to fund programs in the operational plans, etc.?

At subclause F in the same document, it states to determine and adopt a rating and revenue policy and operational plans that support the optimal allocation of Council resources to implement the strategic plans, including the community strategic plan of the Council and for the benefit of the local area. Again, if we don't know that information, we should have it before we go ahead with this proposal. And number two, in the same clause, and I quote, the governing body is to consult with the General Manager in directing and controlling the affairs of Council. And a clause 232 of the Local Government Act, and I quote, to make considered and well-informed decisions as a member of the governing body.

The NRDCAA and community members have constantly reminded some councillors of their roles as councillors to represent the community, to little or no avail, in my view. How do you make a fully informed decision if the information Councillor Lyon-Buckett has asked for is not readily available to councillors? I did notice recently there was figures of full-time equivalents in the business paper. I think the full-time equivalent does not inform councillors that the staffing levels are sufficient to meet the various programs within the council which are identified in the operational plans, nor is it transparent. Another question that should be considered in this process is the Local Government State Award, which states at clause 10.2 the employer shall provide adequate staff and other resources to enable employees to carry out their duties and functions over the course of working hours that are not unreasonable.

And I think it's another reason why a Councillor Lyons-Buckett's notice of motion should be supported. Another query that rises also, does council use labour hire firms for casual staff and are they included in the staffing numbers?

The Council Community Strategic Plan, and I quote from the intent at point 4, Reliable Council, and it says this about Council: be a respected civic leader through consistent, transparent and engaged decision-making that the community can understand.

Councillors, in view of those words, the only conclusion Councillors can come to tonight is to support Councillor Lyons-Buckett's notice of motion. Councillors, you may ask why raise the Community Strategic Plan? According to the Community Strategic Plan, it is a key component of the integrated planning and reporting framework. The Community Strategic Plan states it is written on behalf of the community to represent their main priorities and aspirations for the future and to plan strategies for achieving these goals. It guides all remaining strategies and plans written by Council, including the Delivery Plan and Operational Plan. Council, it is essential there is respect, consistency and transparency, as stated in the Community Strategic Plan at page 34, and that information for Councillors to make an informed decision must include the information Councillor Lyons-Buckett's notice of motion is asking for.

I also note management have indicated that it will take a little longer than the date of the notice of motion. I think that's reasonable. At least management are onto it. Councillors, I urge you to support the notice of motion if it pleases.

Thank you, Mr Want. Are there any questions, Councillors? No. Thank you very much.

Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'll move the notice of motion as it is in the business paper.

Councillor Wheeler seconding. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I've brought this notice of motion because over recent months, certain things have been raised with me, both from within the community and also arising in our last councillor roundtable, that made me want to understand more about whether there's sufficient resources to enable us to carry out our key functions. I mean, I'll say up front, I know these decisions of staffing numbers and who they are, etcetera, are all up to the General Manager, but we have certain responsibilities as custodians of ratepayer funds to have sufficient information available for when we're making decisions around budgets and particularly in allocating resources. So a few of us recently raised questions about our various capacities, and in our role as councillors, we're regularly contacted by ratepayers who are asking us around why certain things aren't done, why these delays, you know, around development applications or around roadworks or implementing various programs, etc.

So if the reasons we're given around that, that we haven't got the staff or contractors or we haven't got the capacity to do that, then I think that we have to regularly look at our resources and how they're allocated so that we can fix any of those issues. I think it's really important because we have to fulfil an obligation in our role as councillor where we oversee that sort of thing. And if we have to respond to a resident that something can't be done and will be delayed further, then we need to know that the reason for that isn't because we haven't got enough people. And I can't find that information, and I've asked for various bits and pieces of it over time, but not in such a comprehensive way.

So I thought it was better to ask for it in a comprehensive manner so that we can have that information compiled so we can better understand the current situation. So the other thing is around, and I'm not sure if people are aware of it, but there is a current inquiry by the federal government, which is around the terms of reference are relating to the financial sustainability and funding of local government. And it's very interesting because it's addressing these very sort of information around trends in attracting and retaining a skilled workforce within local government, including the impacts of labour and hire practices and the role of the Australian government in addressing these things.

I'm a very long-term, probably loud person around my concerns about the sustainability of local government in its current model and its capacity to be financially sustainable, particularly in an era of many increasing costs and cost shifting as well from other levels of government. And I think that in requesting this sort of information, it's to try and get more clarity around this sort of thing. I'd like to know about the retention rates and the loss of long-term employees, because we know that in a diverse area that's so geographically and socio-economically diverse, that local knowledge is a really important facet of how our staff can engage with the community. And I wouldn't like to think that there's not always an understanding of the issues.

Now, I'm not suggesting that's the case, but I want to understand around that whether we have lost local knowledge or corporate knowledge from here and whether that does impact us. I don't know if it does, but without any information, then we can't know. It's not an intention to overload staff with more work. I would have thought this was a reasonably easy amount of information, must be in databases or something somewhere. But just sometimes, if you're told by people they've had an issue because the person dealing with them has changed multiple times, and then we have to explain why that is, I can't explain that because I don't have that information. And with the budget coming up, I was really hoping for a conversation or some more information around whether we are adequately resourced in our key areas.

But I do accept if the staff can't do it by the June meeting, that is fine. It's still information we need to have, and it's still a conversation that I believe that we have to have because clearly it isn't just our council facing these issues. It's much more broad-based. I've heard it at conferences, I hear it, I see that the government is doing an inquiry into it. So it is an ongoing issue, and we have to have the information to assist us to fulfil our obligations.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Kotlash.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'm speaking against this notice of motion, and for three main reasons. But I'd just like to say that I agree with most of the things that Councillor Lyons-Buckett has just said. What I don't agree with is that the things that she's asked for in this notice of motion, they aren't going to address those issues. And I think that we have to be really careful about asking for simplistic information to answer complex questions. Now, the first reason that I'm speaking against this notice of motion is I think we have the information. That's being asked for, but I think it's not in a single report, and I don't think it can be. And I think it's actually a waste of staff resources, which is kind of ironic.

But look , I just think this is already on information that we already have. I respect a councillor's right to ask for information, but as I said before, this information isn't going to answer those questions. So the sort of information, if you're just presented with numbers without any context or analysis, it's almost worthless. Well, it is worthless, and worse, it can be used to paint all sorts of distorted pictures. Now, I'll give you, for instance. You can have the number of employees go down in an organisation, but you can have productivity go up. Now, that can be because of new work practices, or it might be because of application of new technologies. So without context, mere numbers of employees and that sort of simplistic data is not actually very useful.

The third reason is around what you measure. And I know I've said this in this chamber before. It's one of my favourite quotes. Measure what is important. Don't make something important just because you can measure it. Now, that was a quote by Robert McNamara, and I'd like to add to that quote and say that measure what is important. Don't make something important just because you can measure it, like staff numbers, and measure the important things. When you have the ability to do something meaningful and constructive with the results.

We talk about one of the things in point 1C is getting information on staff recruitments and staff movements is very, very complex. People come to an organisation for a myriad of reasons. They leave an organisation for as many varied reasons, none of which we have any levers to pull. So why ask for that information? When Councillor Lyons-Buckett was talking about the need for certain information, she was giving examples of when that information should be asked within a particular context. And unfortunately, getting staff to prepare this report with these simplistic measures will not, as it states in the notice of motion, enhance the understanding by providing an insight into staffing resources of Council.

It won't do that. What it will do is create simplistic and distorted perceptions of what's going on. And that is where we have to be careful. I am very comfortable with asking questions about staffing or our workforce in context , but I'm not prepared to waste staff resources making this sort of very simplistic report . Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Zamprogno.

Thank you. I'm very happy to support the notice of motion and indeed to rise to Councillor Lyons-Buckett's defence in her reasons for asking why. And I'm reflecting particularly on what Councillor Kotlash has just said. It is not at all uncommon towards the end of a council term for councillors to ask for summary information, because it might not be readily available in the way that Mr Want suggests. And it certainly is timely to ask for those summaries because they inform public debate at perhaps the only time where people are tuned in, in the lead-up to a local government election. And for us to talk about how much money council is spending or how many people council employs is not at all uncommon.

And the proof of that is that in March of 2020, a similar distance of time before the election in that year, Councillor McMahon at that time brought her own notice of motion that asked for the same kind of information that Councillor Lyons-Buckett is asking for now, and a whole heap more, and placed a one-month deadline on council. To bring those figures back to the Chamber. And it came back to the Chamber not in one month but in two months, within 60 days. And the Council staff were pleased to be able to present that summary information and indeed in their response acknowledged the appropriateness of the request to summarise information because Council issues an annual report, for example, but it has its own cadence and that information isn't necessarily going to arrive in a time that's timely as the public debates the performance of Council before an election.

In 2020, Councillor McMahon, then Councillor Richards, notice of motion asked not only for the FTE staffing, like Councillor Lyons-Buckett is asking for now, but additional information relating to transfers in and out of Council strategic contingency reserve, the cost of external consultants, the amount of legal advice that we incurred, income that was generated through biodiversity offsets. You know, Councillor Lyons-Buckett's motion doesn't ask for all of those things. I think it's very modest and very targeted in what it asks for. In fact, I'm minded, off the back of what Councillor Lyons-Buckett is asking for here, to bring my own notice of motion to ask about Council's litigation and legal expenses and how much litigation Council engages in and how often we lose and whether there's any conceivable metric to work out whether Council's decisions are more or less defensible than our peers, but I'll consider my form of words.

What's before us here is very reasonable. And I might inform you, Councillor Kotlash, that when Councillor McMahon brought her motion in March of 2020, it was voted for unanimously by everybody in the Chamber except you because you were absent. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor. Anyone else wishing to speak? Our Deputy Mayor.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Look,

My problem with this motion is that is what it implies. I think this information is available to us. I believe if I went to the General Manager and asked these questions, she would give me the answers. And I believe that if we had a workshop or a briefing session and at that meeting Council has asked for this information, the information would be supplied. What's implied by this motion is that the information is being withheld and that you have to go to a Council notice of motion to force the staff to provide this information.

Point of order, Madam Mayor. I'm being mis— What is your point of order? A point of misrepresentation. That is a misrepresentation of what's written in the motion

I'll let you continue, Councillor Calvert, with that in mind. Thank you.

Madam Mayor, what I was talking about is what this implies, not what it says, what it implies. And Councillor Lyons-Buckett didn't say it. I didn't say that she said it. I said it implies these things. And I think some of the members of the community, especially those, so that person who got up and spoke tonight, Mr. Want, he also, through what he said, implied that these figures are not readily available. But I believe they are. I mean, if we think these figures should be provided to us, maybe we should be— Asking for them to be provided on a regular basis with a regular report. So every year or every time the budget comes out or some other time, this information is provided then and we just look at it from year after year.

And actually it is, if you go through it in detail, go through the documents in detail. So that's my problem with this. I don't have any problem with staff providing this information. I just think that they will, they could. All we have to do is ask them. We don't need a motion that implies something else. And if you do get a response to say that, for example, the number of full-time equivalent staff in Department X has dropped by two or gone up by two, what does that mean? It doesn't mean anything. It's not about that. In fact, there's another report that's around. It shows the staff satisfaction survey, and I think that document is much more important if this is what you're looking at. So, Madam Mayor, I'm all for councillors having all the information they require, and we should just ask for it outside of the meetings, outside of the full council meetings, because my experience is any time I've asked for this kind of thing, it's been supplied.

That's my problem with this notice of motion.

Thank you, Deputy Mayor. Councillor Sheather. Yeah

Thanks, Madam

Mayor . I think some of the comments by Mr Wont were right on the mark .

When I read this, I was a bit embarrassed that I wasn't up to speed with some of these questions that are asked. Some of the information that Councillor Brogno spoke of is available, but some of it takes some chasing up. But just touching on, and I wasn't going to say anything about it, but the comments by our Deputy Mayor. We had a document that come to us, I know, 12 months ago, in relation to relationship with staff and councillors. And one of the things that I brought up was the word curious. And it was deleted, the councillors agreed when I brought it up, that councillors weren't asked about information that was of a curious nature.

Councillors elected do exactly that

There's no area, unless there's a confidential matter, and that's documented by law and acts of Parliament and indeed our policies . Anything else should be at our fingertips

And so the information is not readily available to Council, and I know everyone's busy, but it's our responsibility to be on top of these things. We're the governance of this city. Our general managers manage that governance

And I think that we fall short in our roles. And the comment that the Deputy Mayor made about if we ask for this information. I dare say after the comments and the discussion we had about the document about staff relationships , and personally, with any of the staff I've asked about information, I've never been refused, and responded to fairly quickly . So, you know, this place, it's a two-way course, and if we don't work together, I would ask Councillor Lyons-Buckett that before you put this motion was—and I know you made comment about our last meeting in relation to a particular item we're talking about, about being understaffed. You and Councillor Wheeler made a big issue about that. And at the time it was discussed, and—excuse me—and the staff indicated if there needed to be a change in the amount of people in that particular area, that it would be addressed by them and brought to us .

That's a little bit different to what Councillor Buckett's asking. And the question I would ask, through you, Madam Mayor, is that in relation to the items that you've asked information for, did you try to get them through any other source, or were you frustrated from the meeting last time and put it forward?

I'm happy if you'd like to answer that, Councillor Lyons-Buckett

Just succinctly Thank you, Madam Mayor. I would like to have information in front of me that explains that. I don't want to base my decision-making on hearsay, either from what we heard in the roundtable, which the Labor councillors, I might add, were not at, and that I would like to have the information so that I know that I can appraise it myself. I'm quite capable of doing that

Thank you,

Councillor.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. Madam Mayor, I'm going to support this because a councillor's asked for something that she's obligated to know . But I would hope that the staff take on board with some of the other comments that, and I don't know how, because we simply don't meet enough , how fairly simple information, or what might seem simple to the staff, they deal with every day, we come in here once a month for a couple of hours to talk about issues, documents a couple of hundred pages, we don't get time to ask questions, and nor is there a protocol to allow us to do it. So I would hope that the staff wouldn't be offended in any shape by the comments, that the inquisitive councillor wants to know how this is put together.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Conolly.

Thank you. I'm here every week and for hours. I'm not doing it differently. But, Madam Mayor, I just wondered if the mover of the motion would be open to a slight change. Otherwise, I'm proposed to move it as an amendment, that we refer this notice of motion to a briefing session for discussion. The reason being is that I agree with what Councillor Sheather just said, that if councillor feels they need this information, they're absolutely entitled to this information, and I don't want to be part of voting against that. But I also take on board some of the comments, and I think there's some validity in saying that this information is not particularly useful in its current form. Some of the problems that were given as examples of what we need this data for, we couldn't use the data to change anything that would solve those problems or know any more about those problems.

And I'm a big fan of managing by outcomes rather than by micromanaging. So if there's a particular problem with a particular department of council, which we did discuss at our council roundtable, I'd be more interested in having a discussion that's zero in on that department, how to look at the staffing of that department in some detail, how to proper discussion about it, and then decided if there's some metrics we need to report on regularly. I mean, some of this information is publicly available regularly, not all of it, but a number of FTE, that's always available publicly every year . Again, retention rates of staff employed over the last three years, I'd probably be more interested in retention rate overall than just the staff that came on the last three years, because I don't know what relevance that would have.

Yeah, number of staff recruited, number of staff departing during the last three years. I get the three years as the council term. Other than that, I can't see any significance of that number whatsoever, and I'd be more interested in knowing what's happening more generally. So I don't want to say that some are kind of disinformation, and for reference, Councillor Sheather, I actually did ask the general manager, if I send an email with this in it, would I get an answer saying no? And the general manager indicated, no, I would send you back the information. So it's not like it's being withheld from anybody but to raise it as a motion of council suggests that council sees some value in staff compiling this information and reporting it back in a public way, and we haven't seen.

Like I said, I think if councillors think it's necessary, then they're entitled to have it. But I would like to have the opportunity to discuss it in more detail and actually come up with some measures that are potentially more meaningful.

Thank you, Councillor. Was your question to the mover first and then potentially an amendment? Councillor Lyons-Buckett, just quickly if

You're open to a briefing. Can Councillor Conolly clarify though, if we would have a briefing on this, we would require the information, is that correct?

Yes, the information, I guess the difference being we'd like the information reported to us in that briefing, potentially not to the level of detail that would be required for a full public report, but we would want the numbers in some overview of the numbers in a high-level form at least.

Councillor Lyons-Buckett

I would still like that sort of information because it's being belittled by people as not being important, but it actually is important. Point of order, Madam Mayor.

Yes, what is your point of order?

My commentary, and I'm

Assuming— I wasn't

Speaking about you. Okay,

Councillor, sorry, I'll just hear the point of order, please. Your point of order. I

Think it was obviously about me, and I have at no time belittled anything.

Thank you, Councillor. I'll uphold that. Just continue, Councillor. Just the acute question of whether you would like to be open to a briefing first. Well, I'm just seeking

Some clarity around it, Madam Mayor, if I may. I believe that the information there is what would be required, and if that's not the case, then the answer is no.

Councillor. Can we seek some clarification from the staff on what they would do if we put a motion to have a briefing?

General Manager. Yeah, through you, Madam Mayor. We're just working on that motion at the moment. Taking on board, I think what Councillor O'Connolly is after, we would be proposing to amend Councillor Lyons— Bucket motion, where it says that Council prepare a report for consideration at the June 2024 meeting, we simply change to that Council be provided a briefing detailing the following information for Council's consideration. So the motion would remain as it is, but in lieu of the report to the June 2024 meeting , be provided a briefing.

Madam Mayor, I'd be happy to accept that if it included as well that the outcome of that briefing be reported to Council.

Councillor Connelly, that's what you would like to move anyway. Okay, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, we will— I'll just check with the seconder if you'd be happy with that.

Can I suggest that 1(d) also be changed to just include retention rates of staff?

Councillor Lyons-Buckett, is that— That is fine . Okay, so we'll just get some wording up on the board then so that councillors know what they're voting on. But in essence, it's to be provided with a briefing and that briefing to be reported back.

All right, we'll get that going. I did want to say a few things, but I'll just ask other councillors if there anyone still wanting to speak on the motion. It's not an amendment

Councillor Wheeler. Thanks, Madam Mayor. I think we're looking for a boogeyman that isn't here, frankly. This is just data. Data is simply data. I agree with Councillor Connelly that data is just data. It's what you do with it that counts. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't receive the data if we want it. This is not— if it is so easy to find in all the places, and I— Actually, don't know where they all are. Then I'm not quite sure why we're umming and ahhing about delivering it. Look, we've got responsibilities under the Local Government Act. 223 of the Local Government Act states, among many other roles, that 1F is to determine the optimal allocation of council's resources. G is to keep under review the performance of council, including service delivery.

And H is to make decisions necessary for the proper exercise of council's regulatory functions. We can't do this if we don't know what staff we've got on the ground. And look, frankly, I think if the staff really laid down to us exactly how many people you had on the ground, we might come up with less cockamamie ideas for you to do on a regular basis. You know, if you honestly said to us, Look, I've got three people and a tired dingo, it's not going to happen, then we might be a little bit more realistic with what we want. So this is, I think this is very much a two-way street. There is a need, I think, for this information to be public and transparent. I'd actually love to see this data in an end of term report or, as Councillor Connelly suggested, in an annual report.

I think it would be really useful. It would give us— because one of the problems, I think, with collecting data in this ad hoc fashion is that you make false comparisons. You know, you look at this and go, Well, three years ago we looked like this, and it doesn't provide you with enough data to notice whether you're looking at outliers or you're looking at — At a trend or at, you know, at a whole lot of nothing. And I think, you know, we've had a really difficult term. We've had the tail end of COVID, we've had multiple disasters, we've had a fractious council. These key workforce indicators I think are really useful for council coming into the end of a term . It's also useful for the new council coming in, I think, to be aware of this information.

I'd like to see this data across the sector. I'd like to see demographic information. I'd like us, you know, a number of us have attended talks at Local Government New South Wales where they've detailed the difficulties with retaining particular generations and pitching at different generations to attract them into our workforce. You know, Gen Z versus Boomers and Gen X, the Millennials. I'd love to know whether we, whether they're the people that we're, you know, which of those groups aren't we retaining, and do we even want to? But that's outside the scope and capacity of this notice of motion. We sign off on the resourcing allocation, and we need background information to do that to a standard stipulated in the Act .

We are going to look at a risk management framework in this council meeting. There's a figure on page five of that risk management framework that puts councillors at the top of the governance chart. The risks are ours. We can't manage those risks effectively if we're not entitled to the data that we, if we're not provided with the data that we seek . And to do it on an ad hoc basis of each one of us going to the general manager and going, I'd like this bit, I'd like that bit, I'd like another bit, that's tedious and time-consuming. Let's just have it out in front of us, give it to the public. It's their rates that are paying for it, and get on with it.

Thank you, Councillor. Anyone else wishing to speak? I'll just add a couple of remarks. Obviously, I don't have a problem at all with this kind of information. It's absolutely crucial that as councillors we know it. But I must admit that I do agree with Councillor Kotlash's position that the way it has been worded means that the data could be open to some sort of interpretation that we don't know yet . Because to me, when you look at point C, number of staff recruited and the number of staff departing, there's many reasons that people leave employment. It could be that a family member in their job has been transferred and they need to go interstate, or they've decided they want to get out of the local government sector, they've had enough.

A whole range of reasons, and the raw data asked in these questions doesn't present the range of factors that could be attributable to why someone may leave employment. Absolutely, in the past, I couldn't remember the year, Councillor Prognose said it was 2020, I asked for the exact same type of data and even more. And I'd like to put the remarks on that, that since that's been introduced into the room tonight, the reason I asked for that is because I have publicly on the record stated previously that we were not getting anything like that from the previous General Manager. I'm not here to cast aspersions on the previous General Manager, but I have publicly said that that information was not forthcoming, hence why I had to ask for it and ask for more of it.

Because as councillors, we were exceptionally uninformed how the council was running back then . Therefore, I do not have a problem with this. I have a problem with the potential interpretation. I have a problem with Councillor Zamprogno saying that the right time to ask for this information is leading up to an election . Therefore, with the intent that this kind of information and data could be misinterpreted for election purposes, I don't find that very good at all when you're elected to represent an entire organisation, not continuously try to throw it under the bus . I therefore will be supporting the notice of motion tonight to go to a briefing, and I look forward to a valued conversation with my colleagues during that briefing.

Thank you. Anyone who hasn't spoken wishing to speak? No, I'll therefore put the motion. All those in favour? Oh, sorry, sorry,

Right of reply. Thank you . Thank you, Madam Mayor, and I can assure you I have not asked this with any looking towards an election of any sort. In fact, the seed for it came both from the Council round table and also from the ARIC Committee, where there were questions around exit interviews, and which the General Manager will be presenting at the next ARIC meeting, the processes around Council. As I said just before when I was responding to somebody, I don't want to have to make my decision-making based on hearsay. And I didn't want a raft of things I've been told or things I've received from people around anything to do with employment. I preferred to ask for some comprehensive information, which I have asked for before, and not in this exact format, but I have asked for numbers before and I've received the numbers.

There is no inference in this that the information is being withheld. I merely wanted it in a format that we would be able to then have a conversation after that. Maybe I should have written that it was for a conversation starter. With regard to point two around positions directly funded by alternative sources, I'm very keen to know how many positions that is. If it's funded by a grant, I want to know whether that grant might just be pulled one day and we're left without somebody performing a role. I don't see what is so offensive and so, you know, not important about having that sort of information. I think all of this information is important, and I'm quite insulted that it has been inferred that I have done it for any other purpose other than to assist the decision-making of everybody in this room, which everybody should be keen to have that information .

It's not simplistic information, and yet— Several people have said that it's all out there, so it should be easy to put together if it's all available. For the life of me, I couldn't find it, and I had a really good look . But it isn't there, and I think we should have it. I'm not passing judgment on anybody. I understand things, that people leave for different reasons. I'm not going to come in here and say somebody left for a particular reason, but I do want to understand why somebody may have a project that they're involved with that has different project managers. Why, why is that so? And without the numbers, how can we ask the questions? I take this, my position, very seriously in making sure that I don't come in here and make decisions without having the proper information, without having data, as so many people like to have for things, but apparently not in this case.

But I like to have the data so I can make my decisions properly, and I don't think that there's anything wrong with asking for it. I'm happy to go to a briefing. I hope that briefing won't be time constrained and rushed, so we have to hurry and just listen and then get out of there as fast as possible. And I know we're referring a lot of things to briefings, so we're going to have a lot to do between now and the end of term. I would have been more happy simply to receive the information, and I am disappointed that that seemed to have such resistance from people when there has been a few motives impugned by certain people, but that's another matter. I hope that we can work through it so that in our role, if there is a gap that needs to be filled, then the general manager can know that we understand that we may need another person to be working in that role, that we may need to allocate some more resources to deal with a backlog, whether that's in planning or whether that's in infrastructure, wherever that is.

And I hope that that can be the conversation that we can have.

Thank you, Councillor. I'll put the motion. All those in favour, please raise your hand. In favour are Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Connelly, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Durick, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Zemprogno, Councillor McMahon. Those against, please raise your hand. Councillor Kotlash. I declare the motion carried. Councillors

That's the last item tonight subject to public address. The next...

Item in the order of the agenda is the Mayoral Minute. Now you would have all received this this afternoon.

Sorry, forgive me, councillors, I'm not feeling great. You would have received this this afternoon, this Mayoral Minute. I will be speaking to this Mayoral Minute now, and then I'll be putting it to the floor. Does any councillor have an item, a declaration of interest, please?

Madam Mayor, I earlier foreshadowed a less than significant non-pecuniary interest. Can

You please outline that interest?

Because it directly references a Facebook page run by somebody I know.

Thank you, councillor. Therefore I will proceed with the Mayoral Minute.

Madam Mayor, I'd like to challenge you on the question of the propriety of this notice of motion. On

What basis, councillor?

9.9 of the Council Code of Meeting Practice says that a Mayoral Minute must not be used to put without notice matters that are routine or not urgent, and urgency is decided based on whether a matter requires a decision by the Council before the next scheduled ordinary meeting of the Council. Your Mayoral Minute does not meet that threshold and is therefore out of order. I would be delighted to see this debated, but it was improper for you to have brought it to the Chamber so late in the day. There is a person involved who is the author of the Facebook page that you mentioned, who was on a train on their way back from the city and could not attend and defend themselves. I would invite you to defer this to the following meeting.

Thank you, councillor. I thank you for your remarks. As the Chair, I have the authority to declare that it is urgent, and therefore I will be not acknowledging your remarks and therefore believe that the Mayoral Minute is in order. The Chair has the call. Therefore, I'll be putting the Mayoral Minute forward as it is, and I will speak to that Mayoral Minute. The reason I believe that it is urgent is because, as Councillor Zamprogno has said previously, transparency and accountability in local government could not be more important. And I suppose that's why in the previous notice of motion, we had many councillors agree to support the request for that information, because transparency is something that is absolutely vital, especially if you wish to run as a councillor in the very election coming up in September, and you are refusing to be transparent with the community you so desperately want to represent.

Point of order, Madam Mayor.

What is your point of order?

I think you might be imputing improper motives.

Absolutely not. I'm talking to the heart of transparency, and I'll continue to talk to the heart of transparency, which is why my Mayoral Minute is titled as such. As you can see by point 1 of my Mayoral Minute, I'm asking to seek advice on the method and potential wording required to amend Hawkesbury City Council's Code of Conduct to require all councillors to disclose annually whether they personally, or person set out in clause 4.4 of Council's Code of Conduct, administers or is involved in any slash all social media pages, websites, newsletters or published material that particularly and repeatedly discuss the business of Hawkesbury City Council, its councillors and/or its staff. Now, if you are somebody or you are directly associated with somebody who falls under clause 4.4, you should be disclosing that publicly.

I can't be simply simplistic enough about the fact that you should be disclosing that. If you are elected to represent this community, if you are elected to be a custodian of ratepayers' money, if you are elected to adopt policies that mean that bind this community or bind this council and its staff as to how they operate, then you must be transparent. And if you want to hide under a mask of something else or someone else, then the community deserves to know that. Point two, subject to that advice, Council consider amending its code of conduct to accord with that advice. Now, as you can see in my background, it has come to my attention there is a website slash Facebook page operating called Hawkesbury City Councillor Watch.

I'm not going to refer to my background here word for word. Suffice to say that that Facebook page was created, and this is a fact that has played out in the public arena. That Facebook page slash website was created with the purpose of showing who did and who did not attend council meetings and how they voted. It was done, it was created, from what I can see, after the rescission motion of Councillor Nathan Zamprogno, to have that data recorded publicly in council's documentation. What I can gather from that rescission motion going through is that this Facebook page was then created to fulfil that end that Councillor Zamprogno wanted to fulfil. Councillor Zamprogno has now declared tonight in this meeting that someone close to him is the author of that page.

Therefore, I believe that all councillors, not just in council Facebook pages or in websites that discuss intently, deeply what happens here in this chamber and in Hawkesbury City Council, I believe that we all as councillors should be disclosing annually to this body all of the websites, Facebook pages, newsletters and published materials that we put out in our titles as councillor, mayor or deputy mayor, where we are talking about the business of this council. And if you have a problem with that, then I have a problem with that. Because if you are going out there and saying and talking about council, own it. If you can't own it, there is a fundamental problem with your credibility and your desire to represent this council.

Therefore, I can't see any councillor in this room who has in this chamber before spoken ad nauseam about transparency having a problem with this mayoral minute tonight. I will happily put on a disclosure form tomorrow the Facebook pages that I administer that are linked or discuss what happens here in council. If anyone else has a problem with that, they have something to hide, and I would be deeply concerned about that. Hence my mayoral minute seeking advice as to how to amend the code of conduct to enable that transparency. Any councillors wishing to speak? Councillor Sheather.

Yeah, question, Madam Mayor.

Just ask Councillor Conolly, because I haven't got my code of conduct here in the drawer. It's at home on the desk . Clause 4.4, could you or the staff read out, please?

4.4?

Yep.

I hope I have the most up to date. March 20. Oh, sorry, code. I don't have the code of conduct with me, Councillor. We'll just have to— I've got the code of meeting practice

Thanks, Laurie

Clause 4.4. For the purposes of clause 4.3, which talks about pecuniary interests in matters, what 4.4 does is define what is a relative. A, your relative is any of the following: one— oh, sorry, I. Your parent, grandparent, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, nephew, niece, lineal descendant or adopted child. Roman numerals two. Your spouse's or de facto's partner's parent, grandparent, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, nephew, niece, lineal descendant or adopted child. Three, Roman numerals. The spouse or de facto of a person referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2, Roman numerals. B, de facto partner has the same meaning as defined in section 21C of the Interpretation Act 1987. Basically, it outlines the definition of relative, Councillor.

Yeah, thanks, Madam Mayor. Madam Mayor, I don't like restrictions of anything, any sort. Changes that restrict people, I have problems with. I would ask you, and publicly I asked you before, this only relates to council matters. So if you've got websites that— religious or otherwise.

Doesn't apply, and I'll put that on the record. And as you can see in point one, in the last sentence there, particularly and repeatedly discuss the business of Hawkesbury City Council, its council laws and/or its staff. So if you out there and you run abc.com and teach people how to spell, that's not applicable.

Okay. The, the , I spoke earlier tonight about communication with the community , and

It's a two-way street. To sit around these 12 seats here, there's something we need to do as councillors, and that's be respectful of other councillors. The community put them here. We don't have a choice who we work with. The community put them here, and we have to do our best to work together on their behalf for them.

And I know we've had issues that we've discussed privately and otherwise, and I guess any big business or council in this regard has issues about management structure sometimes or outcomes and the likes. Sometimes that's probably avoidable, and that's what the communication is about, and sometimes it's not.

But I haven't seen this website, nor am I interested in looking at it or any other that make comments either supportive or otherwise. If people have got a problem, my private telephone number is available to anyone who wants to ring, and I answer the phone. I'm not interested in the comments I hear about Facebook and the like. I don't need them. I don't want them. So, and I know from the comments from other councillors, and most of you are. Up to speed with the IT that's available today, it doesn't interest me one little bit. I've got enough problems in my life without looking for them. So, Madam Mayor, if this is only about council, and the problem that, and I haven't seen it, is that if it's about

The outcome of things we do, good or bad, I don't have a problem with that. If we make mistakes, we need to get better. If it's commentary that would indicate, from a political point of view, I'm right, you're wrong attitude, then I do have a problem with it, because you're elected to sit around this table and have a different point of view, if you wish to, and you think you represent a particular aspect of council business on behalf of the community. That's your obligation, sitting around this table. If you lose out, the people put you here. The decision was made, carried or lost, whatever the case may be, and as a councillor you've got to wear it. Now, you mightn't be comfortable with it, and if you don't believe in it, you work harder. So

If it's a site that detracts from councillors and the work they do here, I do have an issue. If it's commentary on council matters, we're running late on a project, we won the lottery, whatever it is, I don't have an issue with that at all. So, Madam Mayor, is the commentary within this document? Within this website, complementary of the outcome of the council decision?

No, it is not. There are posts that are not, and they misconstrue to the public the true what has actually happened in this chamber holistically

Gallery, please be quiet. The gallery will be quiet, thank you. The gallery will be quiet or we'll adjourn the meeting. The councillors deserve to be heard in silence. Councillor Conolly.

Thank you. I think the issue here is maybe being a little bit lost in translation. No one's suggesting that the councillors in progno couldn't have a website that criticises all our decisions. Nobody's saying that. Of course he can. Of course he can. Like, that's a democratic right. It's fundamental to democracy. He has the right to do that. All we're saying is you should be upfront and put your name to it. You shouldn't hide behind a false identity if you're doing that. And you should, if you're a councillor and you want to have a website that pretends to be an independent watchdog of council, that's failing the most basic and fundamental ethics test there is. It needs to be transparent. You need to be willing to put your name to what you're doing.

And if you're not, it's because you're trying to hide something. And this is just having a very, very basic standard of behaviour for elected officials. I can't believe we're having any discussion or disagreement over it. Of course we should do that. This is tidying up a problem with our code of conduct web. It's not an envisage that anyone would ever try this. And obviously our code of conduct's trying to keep up with social media and so on. But if anybody, any councillor, was out there with a website pretending not to be them, commenting on council, that is a problem. And all we're saying is if you're in that position, if you or a very close relative to you is out there saying, I'm an independent watchdog of council, and here's my opinion on what happened independently, I'm going to keep a watch on it for you.

That's unethical and shouldn't be allowed.

Nicely said. Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I've got some questions. My first question is, how is it a pecuniary interest?

That's why we're not referring to that clause. We're referring to what the definition of relative is. I'm referring to what relative is in 4.4. That's the definition of relative.

Well, it's also in 5.9, which is a non-pecuniary interest, which is in fact what it would be if it were an interest at all, because those definitions, of course, are part of that clause of the code of conduct. So I think it's implying that it is a pecuniary interest, which of course implies that Councillor Zamprogno, as now has occurred, that we are actually discussing another councillor by name in the chamber, which I'm very uncomfortable with. Anyway, that's how it's gone. That would suggest that Councillor Zamprogno was gaining some financial benefit or loss from it.

I'm happy to take that on note and to change accordingly if needed. Thank you. My second

Question was, in your background information regarding the data being misconstrued, etc., are you actually suggesting that Councillor Zamprogno in this site is holding out that he is the council?

Are you actually suggesting that it is Councillor Zamprogno behind the page by that sentence alone? Well, that's been established. He hasn't admitted it, but it's quite obvious, so — Well, I

Don't know.

You just said it. I'm asking you, Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Well

I've got no idea. He declared an interest, and you're implying—you are implying it is him. I haven't

Said it was. You just did. I'm questioning what you just said.

Point of order, Madam Mayor . We're getting into a debate here. Yeah,

I'd like—thank you, Councillor Sheather, upheld. Your specific question, Councillor Lyons-Buckett?

It was, are you suggesting in your background the information that the person running this site is holding out as being the council?

The person running this site, as Councillor Conolly correctly said, is purporting to be the watchdog of council. And if that person has any link to this council, then therefore, referring to my heading, let's be transparent about that. Ethical is the exact word as well, and I thank Councillor Conolly for mentioning it on a couple of occasions there. This comes back to the internal ethics of being a publicly elected representative and accountable to the voting community. If you are going to run an election platform and you have sustained the same platform over many years, then actually act upon that platform and be transparent, and that's what this is going to. Is that

The answer to my question, Madam Mayor?

Were you talking about the data being misconstrued?

I was asking whether you are making an accusation that the person behind this site is holding out as

Being the council. The reason that I have declared urgency and brought it forward today is many members of the community coming and approaching me, saying, Is this an official council website and Facebook page? And myself having to disclose that it is not. And I absolutely wanted to put on the public record via this mayoral minute that it is not.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. Another question. The disclosures you're wishing people to make, I'm gathering that is about any Facebook page that has or is set up that repeatedly discusses the business of Hawkesbury City Council, its councillors and its staff. That's what you're relating

To. That's what it says. It absolutely has to be acutely talking about or discussing the business of council, councillors and its staff. So the business of councillors, is that correct? Business of Hawkesbury City Council discusses its councillors and the decisions they make within their capacity as councillors and/or the staff. Thank you, Madam Mayor.

Councillor Djuric.

Thank you.

I won't be supporting this notice of motion or the Mayoral Minute. It looks like autocratic policy that will be highlighted as an invasion of privacy. I've got family members that have been commenting on council decisions from before I was even born. That is not my responsibility to be accountable for their right to express their opinions on any platform that is available to them. I'm not going to try and regulate what my granny posts on Facebook. She'd box my ears off. I respect my spouse's right to post what she likes on whatever platform she chooses without me looking over her shoulder. If people are breaking the law, there's processes in place to sort that. If people are committing slander, there's processes in places for that. I'm

Going to call a point of order there, Councillor Djuric, because you've missed the whole point of the Mayoral Minute. It's if you administer those pages or publish that— It's not a point of

Order.

I don't think it's worded in a manner that I can support it. Thanks.

Councillor Lyons-Buckett, you've already spoken. No, I've asked questions. I'll speak against the Mayoral Minute now. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I think I just— I am actually quite gobsmacked by it. But yes, I know transparency and I'm all for—

Madam Mayor, point of order. Councillors are entitled under the Code of Meeting Practice to be heard without interruption, and includes by the chair to editorialise.

Thank you, Councillor Wheeler. I'm also the chair, and I will allow Councillor Lyons-Buckett to continue.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I can't see why simply putting out a press statement that said that that is not a council Facebook page would not have sufficed in this instance if that was your major concern. It does sound to me as if there's some sort of personalised attack going on.

Point of order, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, that is absolutely— you cannot infer that. There's no inference of that. It's

Inferred in the information, and we just sat through an item where it was inferred that I was doing certain things for a certain purpose, which was— The point of order was upheld that I couldn't say that. So, Madam Mayor, I am really concerned about this. First of all, about the urgency. It is not an urgent matter, and you yourself have sat here and criticised previous mayoral minutes as not being urgent on the very basis of that clause in the code of meeting practice. It is very, very concerning. I am all for the transparency. I would be happy. I do not administer any Facebook pages besides my councillor and personal page and my People Not Parties page, which all declare it's me, and I'm happy to do that.

And I think that anybody should do that if they're asked to do that. But I don't think it needs to be amended to the code of conduct, because I think the code of conduct covers anything that could emerge within those posts that you're referring to. And I believe it does, because I don't know what it is. Maybe you could explain then what is not in the code of conduct, what sort of behaviour that you could possibly be referring to is not in the code of conduct. That's the

Question. And I don't need to answer you other than the fact that if someone raises an issue with the code of conduct, it goes to investigation and costs the ratepayer. So this needs to be tidied up. And if anyone has a problem disclosing what they administer in terms of council matters, then I have serious ethical questions about that. Councillor Conolly, do you have a question?

Yeah, just a question to staff on that point. Is there anything in the code of conduct currently that would prohibit a councillor or their partner from having a Facebook page regularly commenting on council matters without disclosing that it's them?

Is anyone available for that or should we take that on notice?

General Manager.

Thank you through you, Madam Mayor. The answer is no. What we do have in our recently adopted media policy is a provision that provides

That councillors must advise the general manager or the corporate communications manager of any social media platforms they administer , which relate to content of council or council officials. So there's a provision in the social media policy that, I guess the differential there is that it's not in itself sitting in the code of conduct and it doesn't expand itself to those related parties that in section 4.4 of the code.

Thank you for that. I guess that to the point of Council Lyons-Buckett's question, I think that answers the question. Sorry

Sorry. Mr Want, please sit down. You have no right to approach councillors. Please sit down and accord yourself with the rules of the chamber. It's unprofessional and embarrassing. Please sit down. I just wanted

To— Thank you, Councillor Conolly

Sorry, please sit down. Please sit down. Your behaviour is unacceptable. Please leave then, Mr Want. Please leave. Please leave if that's how you want to. Your behaviour in this chamber is unacceptable, Mr Want. Oh, now he wishes to stay.

Free, free power

Start. Sorry, but that's not akin to the topic at hand. Councillor Conolly, please continue.

Councillor Zamprogno has now asked him to stay, so they've decided to stay. I just want to say I would encourage— I'm surprised by the debate here, and I would encourage all councillors to think about the issue in a broader sense rather than what's happening right now, because this is a serious ethical issue that could affect any one of us.

Thank you, Councillor Conolly. Madam Mayor, I hadn't finished when Councillor Conolly interjected with his question. Okay, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, I wasn't sure what time you were up to. Well, I've only done about one minute. Please proceed. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I still would urge you to rethink putting that out as a press release rather than amending the Code of Conduct, because that will undoubtedly lead to more expense for this council with even more Codes of Conduct when already it is so expensive for the number that have been taken out. I just am very concerned, and I had lost my train of thought of what I was speaking about before, but did wish to finish.

Now I've lost it. I'll have to...

I just urge you that I don't think that this is the path. I don't think it's a matter of ethics. Really, I mean, in the past— all right, I'm going to say it— in the past, would we retrospectively go back and look at the admins of Facebook pages that have existed in past times that have attacked other members here? And if we vote against this tonight, will there be any public posts put about who voted against it by anybody in this room?

Councillor Lyons-Buckett, again, not your concern if there was. And secondly— Well, it would be ironic, wouldn't it?

It'd be very ironic. I urge

You to go back to what the mayoral minute is actually seeking, and it's advice. You're not changing the Code of Conduct tonight. You're not adopting a change tonight. We're asking for advice. When that advice comes back, we'll consider the next steps. That's all this mayoral minute is asking for, because there is misinformation going out there into the community, and I think the community has the right to know who the author of that information is. It is as simple as that. Is there any other councillor wishing to speak? Councillor Veigel.

Yeah, thanks, Madam Mayor. Transparency. Well, if you've got a Facebook page out there, you can post anything you want. I haven't got a problem with that. But just own the bloody thing. Don't hide behind some other anonymity or whatever you want to do, okay? Just own it, right? Now, I had a look at this very quickly, this Facebook page, what I could glean out of it today. Of course, I am there and I looked at the facts and figures and I said, it's interesting. I'm marginally ahead of Councillor Buckett's line on not voting on certain things and not representing council, and I think, well, where are they getting that stat from? And I thought, I know the issues when I wasn't at council. One was I was away with my wife because issue is very early in council and there wasn't any internet there.

And the other thing was I excused myself because there was a conflict of interest on two, and one of those was a motion based on an issue up on the other side of the river.

So, yeah, well, if you want to state the facts, state the facts, okay? I don't know how much BS was in it. I'm not even going to go there. There's not many comments on it, and I don't believe there's many people reading on it.

All I can say, if there is somebody in this room that's got this Facebook page and they're drafting it but pushing it behind somebody else's name, don't do that. That's what Councillor Conolly says. It's not ethical. Just own it. Be transparent. You know where it's coming from. Most of everybody else around this place has got a Facebook page. They own it. They put their name to it, and I appreciate them doing that. Just own the damn thing, will you? Be transparent. Thanks.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Sheather, you've got a question? Yes,

Thank you.

It's indicated here it's got to be disclosed, or the proposal would be disclosed annually. So what happens from there back?

Well, it would be moving forward. It's not retrospective, so it would be moving forward, and we'd have to take the advice that we received on how to best do that.

No, I meant if you're providing a disclosure annually,

Well, during that period of when you're disclosing it, if you do— However

We haven't even— well, I haven't got any advice as to how that disclosure would be worded, so we'd have to have a document crafted, and we'd have to have a look at that, Councillor.

Okay.

Yeah, thanks.

Thank you, Deputy Mayor.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I was going to say what you just said a minute ago, but I'll say it myself, that I'm apparently reading a different recommendation to many other people in this room. The recommendation is that we, number one, seek advice. Number two, when we get that advice, we consider amending the code of conduct. This recommendation doesn't tell us to do anything. It especially doesn't tell us to change the code of conduct, and it especially doesn't tell us that we should shut our grandmother's Facebook page down or anything like that. There's no invasion of privacy that's going on here. It's just, one, we seek advice; two, we consider changing the code of conduct. So it's all got to come back to us, and at that stage, we look at what the advice is.

The advice might be that, no, you can't do that. You can't change the code of conduct or something akin to that, in which case we don't follow up with changing the code of conduct. We don't know what the advice is going to be. So we firstly need to wait for that advice, and then secondly, when it comes back to us, then we consider amending the code of conduct. So unless I've got a different copy than everyone else, that's what my business paper says, and that's what I'm going to be voting on.

Thank you, Deputy Mayor. Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. Look, I can't support this in its current form. Firstly, I don't think it's urgent. We have an additional council meeting. We're about to vote on an additional council meeting in two weeks. This could have waited two weeks. If you were really keen to pursue this as a change to the code of conduct, then I think you had a couple of options. You could put out, as Councillor Lyons-Buckett suggested, a press release stating that Hawkesbury Council watch, which seems to be the problem page in question. I'm not quite sure why that's the problem page when we've had the eight years that I have been on council has been plagued with various people. Giving everyone the benefit of their opinion on council's performance, certainly when we were, for the blink of an eye, a progressive council, there were numerous pages lining up, including ‘Have Your Say’ on the new Windsor Bridge, who seemed to have a lot of internal information about council, and were very happy to talk about council's business and councillors' business day in and day out.

There's plenty of meat already in the code of conduct. This belongs, if it is going to play out, belongs in the media policy, not in the code of conduct. 3. 23 and 3.24 already cover situations where councillor's comment is governed by the code of conduct. If you can't make that stick from the code of conduct, then I don't think it's the code that needs tightening. I think we need to speak more openly about what's out in the public arena and perhaps be calmer in our reactions to it. Who was going to validate these disclosures? We know that disclosures are only as good, are only useful if they're factual. I'm shocked that this has actually come from the party of free speech and individual rights.

As Councillor Djuric said, this is overreach and is clearly a witch hunt. It names a single site and a councillor has been repeatedly singled out. I've never had a fake profile. I'm flat out remembering who I am most of the time, let alone remembering who else I might be. I run three Facebook pages, my own, which has very tight settings. My councillor page and the Hawkesbury Greens page, along with another admin. I don't think it's a surprise to anybody that I'm those people. One of the problems with this, as it's proposed, is that it only involves relatives. What about other personal relationships? This is really easy to get around. You just use a friend. Phone a friend. Perfect. Not covered by 4.4 of the pecuniary interest list.

You can use whoever you like. Doesn't need to be even someone you like very much. Perfect. And what happens to extended family relationships? I mean, I know there's a councillor in this chamber whose father-in-law administers another Facebook page and who is vociferous in his condemnation of council and other councillors. What are we going to do about that? We are not our relatives' keepers. And there is the classic case in point. We do not — I am the only person in this council whose spouse is governed by council's code of conduct because he is a council employee. Everybody else's partner is free to say whatever they like in their own name or in somebody else's, and that happens as well. Do we have to now start declaring our spouses' altars?

Mine doesn't have one, but I know other councillors' spouses do. Should councillors declare their altars? I've never had one, but I know other councillors have. When does this stop? When? This is a massive overreach.

Thank you for your comments, which I wholeheartedly disagree with, hence the mayoral minute. Anybody who, to me, has an issue with owning up, we're not asking anyone else in this entire population of the Hawkesbury to sign a declaration except the 12 elected people in this room and asking them to be transparent with how they operate in terms of their public role. I'm honestly surprised at some of the remarks here tonight to protect certain people who may be involved in that. Are there any other councillors who wish to make any comments? Point of order, Madam Mayor. Point of order. Withdrawn, Councillor. Thank you very much. Are there any other comments from councillors? Point of order, Madam

Mayor. Councillor Wheeler raised a point of order, and you dismissed it before she

I've withdrawn the remarks that she would have been referring to. Oh, you foresaw. Yeah. Thank you, Councillor Dogramaci.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. If I start talking, it will take hours and hours, and when I start, I won't stop. All I am saying is that, you know, we, everyone, you know, had a go. Can we just move on, please? And that's the reason maybe, you know, we have only a few people, you know, coming in here. Please, can we just go on?

Thank you, Councillor. Nicely said. If there's no other councillors wishing to—

I might say a word, Madam Mayor.

Councillor Zamprogno.

Right. Firstly, a question. Don't start my clock, because I wanted to start with a question to you, Madam Mayor. If I was prepared in this meeting to discuss the ownership of the Hawkesbury City Council Watch Facebook page, would you be prepared to talk about the ownership of the fake Hawkesbury Matters page?

And quite frankly, the ownership of the Hawkesbury Matters page doesn't talk about, as far as I saw from looking at it online, doesn't talk about councillors, Hawkesbury City Council, its staff.

All

Right then. Repeatedly discussing it. What Hawkesbury City Council Watch does, Councillors and Progno, and you may know too well, is that it continuously, since its inception on the 11th of May 2022, has discussed every single council meeting, who attended, who did not, and how they voted. You would well know this. Well

I'll take from your remarks that your lack of objection means that you're happy for that to be on the table. I think that the Mayor has seen too much Scooby-Doo, because at the end of an episode of Scooby-Doo, the baddie was unmasked, and then he then says, Aha! It was me all along, and I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kids. You see , no, no, let me back up. Let me talk about principles. I like to talk principles to start with. There's a principle that's been articulated by the Australian Government in their declaration on open government. They said citizens have a right to government to access government data and information, and to use it to ensure that government is more transparent, accountable, and responsive to the needs of the community.

Now it's true that in February 2022 , I brought a motion to the chamber. It was a new chamber, and I suggested that in the interests of that transparency and accountability, that we collate and present a lot of information that was already being gathered concerning councillor attendance at meetings, but then to go further, and then to report at the end of the term councillors' attendance at committees and workshops and expenses and conferences and their IT expenditure. And, you know, some of that material was public and some of it wasn't, but I believed that, again, to reference an earlier issue, that there were people who would take note just before an election, and it was a reflection on how we were doing.

Who turns up? Who's conscious? Who votes for what? Of course, that was rescinded in May 2022 by a motion that was brought by Councillor Calvert and Councillor Conolly, and I believe that people are open in themselves to judge whether that represented a diminution of the accountability in this chamber. And it is true that Curiously enough, at the point that council was no longer collecting to present that information, that a Facebook page called Hawkesbury City Councillor Watch sprung up to discharge much the same function. And I'm glad that the Mayor has prepared to reflect that it's a very slick and professionally produced page that presents the data of that was already public, I might add.

Who turns up? Who has to recuse themselves? Who votes for what? And to what degree councillors agree or disagree with one another. All completely public data, presented, and I say this hand on heart, in a way that is neutral and impartial.

I am not the admin of Hawkesbury City Council Watch, but the Mayor, I think, perhaps hasn't been paying attention because her thesis is premised on the fact that I have, you know, neglected to own up. Whereas if the Mayor was listening to the interview that I gave on Pulse FM on the 15th of April with their presenter Catherine Jean, I talk at length about pioneering the idea and running with others this Facebook page. That's out in the public domain. You can go to my YouTube channel and you can watch that interview. It has not been a secret. Now, council's media policy, as others have pointed out, says that it adequately covers what we're talking about here. Firstly, council officials, and I'm a council official, can't issue material that's defamatory, offensive or humiliating.

And for the purposes of this policy, councillor social media platforms are not council social media platforms. As far as, you know, purporting to be an organ of council, if I can reference you to both the website and the Facebook page, since its inception it says, This is not a website of Hawkesbury City Council. All inquiries about this website, please email the email address written and authorised by David Simpson Richmond, who is my partner. A name that I have not spoken in this chamber because I and he are very private. But he is happy to put his name to that. The Facebook page says, This is not an official Facebook page of the Hawkesbury City Council. The information is presented from publicly available data provided by Hawkesbury City Council in their meeting minutes and agendas.

The independence of that site, I associate with my independence as a councillor, and people are welcome to draw their own judgment about whether it is sufficiently independent to warrant their scrutiny. The integrity of the data is simply the integrity of Council's own data, simply repackaged in a way that encourages people to pay attention to something that, frankly, they ought to pay more attention to but generally don't. It's just data.

Thank you, Councillor. Your time has expired. I'd seek

An extension. Oh

Well, I don't grant you one, so thank you very much for your contribution to the debate. Well, I was just getting to the interesting part. I'm not interested in your interesting part. You've exhausted five minutes, so thank you very much. You can probably go on Facebook and let everyone know what you wanted to say afterwards. Madam

Mayor, I wanted to go on and talk about your vastly defamatory Facebook page that was registered in the name of your developer boyfriend, which goes around defaming both councillors and local businesses— Thank you very much, Councillor. Thank you so much for allowing— It's good stuff.

Thank you. I call an adjournment to meetings adjourned for 15 minutes. Thank you very much, while I seek—

A councillor commits an act of disorder if the councillor, at a meeting of the council or a committee of the council, D, insults or makes unfavourable personal remarks about or imputes improper motives to any other council official or alleges a breach of the council's code of conduct. In that regard, Councillor Zamprogno, do you retract or apologise without reservation for the remarks that you made?

Madam Mayor, I apologise unreservedly for creating a scene because— I'm asking— I am answering in my own way, Madam Mayor.

In eight years on council, I've never lost my temper. I definitely regret that because the chair deserves respect in any organisation. However, your question strikes more to whether I regret what I said, and the answer is no.

In that case, Councillor Zamprogno, if you refuse to retract or apologise without reservation in regards to the insult that you threw my way under part 15, 11D, I have the authority to expel you in accordance with section 15.14 of the Code of Meeting Practice. Please leave the meeting. Good evening all. Someone please turn off Councillor Zamprogno's microphone.

Thank you, Councillors. We'll therefore

Proceed

With

The item that was being debated before we adjourned

This meeting. The item was 3.1.1, Mayoral Minute. Is there any Councillor who has not spoken that was wishing to speak? Councillor Kotlash.

Thank

You, Madam Mayor.

I just wanted to reflect on a few things that were said. In a previous item, Councillor Lyons-Buckett stated that the two Labor councillors weren't at a round table meeting, and this goes to owning this website that we were talking about where— Point of

Order, Madam Mayor. What is your point of order, Councillor? That Councillor Kotlash is not— that is not true. That is not what I did. She is imputing an improper motive.

I don't think she's even said what the link was yet, so I will allow her to finish her sentence and then I'll make a decision.

I heard Councillor Lyons-Buckett say that at the round table where you were discussing staffing issues, that the two Labor councillors weren't present. Now, this goes to the information that is put on—

Point of order, Madam Mayor. What is your point of order, Councillor? My point of order is that that is just— it is not— I'm sorry, you did not make those remarks. I made those remarks, and I made those because I was saying, if you would take it in context, that the reason I brought this— the motion I brought was from the round table, which they weren't at. Is that what is wrong with saying that? That's fact. I don't think Councillor Kotlash has even

Made her point yet, so I will allow her to make her point. Thank you.

Madam Mayor, I move the motion be put.

Someone's talking. Someone's still actually got the floor and

I've given them the floor. I just want to make

The point, owning that the information on their website is important because not all councils can attend council meetings. And this is just—I just want to get this out into the public domain for all sorts of reasons. That data is out there on that website, and if you want to interpret people being absent in some way or other, you own it and you put your name to it. And I just wanted to say that if people have such store in that sort of data, I think that every time we have a meeting or a roundtable or a workshop, and if we can't attend, somebody can't attend, we should make a time when everybody is available. I wasn't available at that roundtable, and I think it was implied that, you know, that it was implied that we weren't there, so we didn't know what we were talking about, and I think that's really dangerous.

And I'll stop there because obviously I'm hitting some nerves that are getting to people, but I just wanted to say that that is really— Councillor Kotlash, what

Is your point of order? Councillor Kotlash is attacking me personally, which is, as you state at the start of the meeting, not acceptable.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Kotlash, I'll ask you to please discuss the recommendation in front of you, please.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I just wanted to note that that information can be distorted. So I'll leave it at that. And I, yeah, I'll leave it at that.

Thank you, Councillor Kotlash. Before I put it to the vote, I will agree with that remark because the information was distorted in one of the most recent posts on this website and Facebook page, to the point where other councillors who appear to be possibly voting against the mayoral minute tonight actually went on with their own comments saying that this information does not reflect the true accuracy of the situation of the councillors who left the room and had the information to get a better point or to get a better score on the system established by that website or Facebook page, you actually had to breach the code of conduct, was one councillor's very public remarks disagreeing with the content.

So I find it extraordinary that that could potentially not have any relevance or importance in considering the motion in front of us tonight. Based on all of that, I'll therefore put the mayoral minute. Those in favour, please raise your hand. In favour are Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert and Councillor Dogramaci and Councillor McMahon. Those against the mayoral minute, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett and Councillor Wheeler. Absent from the room is Councillor Zamprogno. I declare the mayoral minute carried.

The next items are those listed as items on block. I will—

Pulling item 5.1.3 out of the items on block due to the declaration of interest that will be forthcoming by myself and Councillor Sheather. Therefore, the items to be adopted on block are items 4.2.2, 4.3.3, 4.4.1, 4.4.3 and 4.4.6. Do I have someone willing to move that way? Councillor Conolly, seconded. Councillor Reardon. All those in favour, please raise your hand. In favour, Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, on block, Councillor Wheeler, and Councillor McMahon. Absent from the room is Councillor Zamprogno. I declare all items on block carried.

The next item, in accordance with the order on the business paper, is item 4.2.1, 2023-2024 Event Sponsorship Program.

Move the recommendation.

Thank you, Councillor Conolly, seconded, Councillor Veigel. Councillor Conolly.

Sorry, no discussion, that's right.

Thank you. Anyone, any councillors wishing to speak on the matter? Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. Look, just a question, if I may. Will the changes to the policy that Council has put forward finally see an end to events that have been repeatedly sponsored by this Council that, frankly, after two decades, could probably stand on their own two feet?

Thank you very much, Chair. Manager of Communication and Events.

Thank you, through you, Madam Mayor. There is still a criteria to address that point in the new set of criteria that has been adopted. We'll be using that new set of criteria in the updated policy when we assess round one in the next financial year. Thank you.

Any other councillors wishing to speak? Councillor

Sheather. Just a question, Madam Mayor. If we're changing the policy in that regard, and I really don't have an issue with it, we discussed we should be supporting organisation structures to get on their feet and get going, but they need a long-term plan to further their activity. But if there are people that, or organisations that have repeatedly looked forward, I guess, to those sort of funds, can we let them know that there's a likelihood that their assessment would be different because of that into the future?

You can ask that as a question to see

If that's something that we

Do or something that we could consider moving

Forward. It's just that if they put the opportunity in late and get refused, and then they can't get sponsorship, they're up the creek a bit, you know. So our staff would have the information to the ones who are regulars, I guess for the want of a word. That's not saying they won't get it. The criteria would be assessed on that regard, because I think anything that, like with some of the organisations that have big community support, if they don't do it, we do it, it costs us money. And this way that you've got organisations that give support to businesses and the likes, not in all cases, but some, and that assessment should be assessed on a merit base. But if they're going to miss out, I'd like them to be informed that the assessment's different.

Thanks, Councillor. We'll take that on notice. Absolutely. Any other councillors wishing to speak? Right of reply, Councillor Conolly. All those in favour, please raise your hand. In favour are Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor McMahon. Absent from the room is Councillor Zamprogno. I declare the item carried.

The next item is item 4.4.2, March 2024 quarterly budget review statement. Do I have someone willing to move that way? Councillor Reardon, seconded. Councillor Sheather. Councillor Reardon, any remarks? Nope. Any other councillors wishing to speak?

Councillor Wheeler. Thanks, Madam Mayor. A couple of questions. There's some information about road and infrastructure works that doesn't have a great deal of detail. When will we and the community see that information?

I'll just see who would like to answer that.

Chief Financial Officer.

Through you, Madam Mayor. So the capital works report listing provides some background further information on those particular reports, and as each quarterly review comes through and those timings of those projects are reassessed, then they'll come back at that stage and with further information.

Thanks. And the next question, where are we up to with the Upper Hawkesbury Powerboat Club?

Director of Infrastructure

Through you, Madam Mayor, the designs for the reconstructed club, the pre-construction cost estimate exceed the budget that we have from both insurance and grant funding. So there's a number of options being explored by staff, including revisiting the scope, revisiting the current structure and the clubhouse as it currently stands, and staging as well as exploring other grant opportunities.

So we're still kicking it around.

We're still actively trying to restore the function of the Powerboat Club within the budgets that are available, or alternative options.

And when will Council receive further information about how that's progressing?

Once we have information either on a way forward in terms of de-scoping or a final position with respect to budget and any requests for additional funding. If not either of those things, then the next quarterly report on the capital works program.

And how are we communicating that with the Powerboat Club? What's their involvement in this?

The exact details I'd have to take on notice, but our staff have been in contact with the Powerboat Club from time to time and in discussions. When they last spoke, as a matter I'd have to take on notice.

Thank you.

And I see and hear that there's an allocation of funding to the Deerubbin Centre paving. I assume that's to fix the slip hazard that we've discussed. Thank you. I'm pleased to see that. Thanks.

Any other councillors wishing to speak? No. Right of reply, Councillor Reardon? Not needed. Thank you. All those in favour please raise your hand. In favour, Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor McMahon. Absent from the room is Councillor Zamprogno. I declare the item carried.

Item 4.4.4, risk management framework. Have someone move that way? Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Seconder? Councillor Wheeler. Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'd just like to say that this is a great piece of work that's been done. I know it's a lot of work. It's very comprehensive. It went through the Audit and Risk Management Committee and it was well received. I think that the risk register is confidential for obvious reasons, but I think it's a really interesting document and really important for councillors to read that and be aware of the level of risk and the types of risks that we're exposed to. We're exposed to so many risks, of course, and this document and its supporting policies around it really identify and articulate the extent of the risk and how Council will manage that risk, which is a really important thing to be understood.

As I mentioned previously, the only issue I raised within the committee and I raised in the briefing as well is that from an elected body perspective, we can have a document that says what will and will not be tolerated, but there's no guarantee that decisions or behaviour within this chamber will adhere to what is documented in those documents. So I think that's a bit problematic, in my view, especially around reputational damage. But I think—I don't know how we would ever overcome that. That's not the staff's issue. The bulk of the document relates to operational matters, and that's really good. But I think that that is the only thing that I saw within what otherwise is an extremely comprehensive and interesting document.

Thank you, Councillor. Anyone else wishing to speak? Councillor Veigel.

I did tap the microphone. I apologise for that. I got through anyway, just checking one of the things are working correctly. Yeah, look, this is very comprehensive and I thank the staff for doing it. But I do have a question, though. Now you've got to check the robustness of when you do all these things. Who's going to do that? Now, I know it's been referred to the Risk Audit Committee, but who checks that they know what they're doing, dare I say, and they're making sure that the actual procedures is A-OK? Because when you do an audit, it sounds, Ah yeah, this is really cut and dry. Like, if you're an accountant, you just get the abacus out and it all adds up to A figure, but this is a bit more comprehensive. So you can take that on notice if you want to answer it. Thanks.

General Manager. We might have a go at it. Thank you through you, Madam Mayor. So Council has got a range of internal audit mechanisms. So the Audit and Risk Improvement Committee is one such body that does that. The changes to the legislative framework around audit committees have meant that these committees now have a great deal more rigour, and they are covering a far greater breadth of matters than what they had done in previous years. So that is one aspect. Council, of course, has its own internal audit function that we contract out to a suitably qualified audit firm. And then the Chief Financial Officer has the audit office on her, with a great degree of regularity, on a wide range of matters.

So there's a number of checkpoints in that process. And of course, with all of this, the executive leadership team and the senior leadership team have a regular oversight of our risk registers.

Anyone else wishing to speak on the item? Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. I think this is a really useful document, and I think it's really helpful for councillors to have this laid out in the way that it is, with a clear delineation around the risks that we are willing to tolerate. You know, I think it's really easy for a council to spend time worrying about reputation and finance and not enough time worrying about people and the environment. And I'm pleased that this document addresses that balance, or addresses that balance.

And I'm pleased to see particularly low tolerances for the things that I hold dear, and a willingness to tolerate criticism, because I think that's important for a service organisation that is set up to serve ratepayers. I think it also provides us with a solid base for resourcing, particularly around areas like compliance and health management and things like that, and employee risk management as well. I think risk analysis is particularly difficult with a political body. I think we, aside from having deep cognitive biases, we have further biases that are entrenched by our political partisanship. And so having a well-defined policy that the staff can refer to and that we can hold ourselves accountable against may occasionally— Allow

Us to rise above that partisanship.

My only concern is around the risk reporting. I think Council is quite late in the process. It comes to us in an annual meeting, and I question whether that's significant

Or whether that's sufficient. And I also think that this document and the use of it needs to be built into training for new councillors, the induction training for new councillors, and at the start of each council term as a refresher for those of us who've been here for a while, because this should be one of the things that we measure. You know, we get really tied up in OPRs and all of that stuff, those numbers that we flash around that we don't half the time understand anyway, and we throw out when we have an actual disaster. But actually, this is the stuff that really matters. This is the stuff that keeps our workers safe, our community safe, our LGA, our environment protected, and all of those things. This is what we really should be measuring ourselves against. Thanks.

Thanks, Councillor. Anyone else wishing to speak? Right of reply, Councillor Lyons-Buckett? Not that necessary. All those in favour, please raise your hand. In favour are Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor McMahon. Absent from the room is Councillor Zamprogno. I declare the item carried. The next...

Item is 4.4.5, Hawkesbury Sports Council Governance Review. Councillor Sheather?

Yeah, Madam Mayor, I'd move the recommendation with two additional points.

Yes, what were they?

Number six being the council workshop the recommendations with the Sports Council. Mm-hm

And number seven, the council Sports Council rep attend those workshops.

Thank you. Anyone else wanting to second that? Yep, Councillor Veigel. Thank you, Councillor Sheather.

Yeah, thanks, Madam Mayor.

Just the recommended recommendations above it, don't clarify that. The recommendations within the governance does. And something else that I haven't put in there, but the governance report that we're assessing is not in there, is the position of the administrator of the Sports Council. The work that is done by that administrator, you're only too well aware of. I know that you've sat as council rep for a long time. It's a 24/7 job, and she's certainly not complaining about it. The committee hasn't got issues with it. But we look at financial structures within this, we talk about the governance of the body itself, but the review does not speak about the position, whether it's adequate or not, of the administrator.

And it's a voluntary agreement that she's there, so it's not an award wage or the like. It's something I think the council should assess in their financial structure with this review. I wouldn't be doing what she's doing if I was getting paid for it, for what she does. And we've been lucky enough, we've had three administrators in the Sports Council in 35 years, and every one of us has been really good. And I'd like to bring to Council's attention, there was a Sports Council meeting last night, and I put to them whether they wanted me to pursue the additional funds that I requested of Council and the documentation that was forwarded from that. And there's been discussions with the administrator and the President since those discussions and the information that was forwarded with the staff, and they're extremely happy with that process and feel that it will support the governance review with the communication and the willingness to discuss moving forward.

So those additional funds that I asked for, I won't be pursuing them. It'll be done through the course of the communication between the staff and the Sports Council. And after discussing the review with the meeting last night, the committee was satisfied and responsive that if there's processes or the like that need to be Rearranged, managed, directed, whatever, that they're keen for that to happen. The Sports Council's been very proactive, excuse me, organisation all that time with no issues or frustration with Council or vice versa, and they want that to continue.

Thank you, Councillor. I've just had a question from the General Manager. Just to clarify what you mean by workshop, just so the staff know exactly what they are doing, can you just please give some detail on that?

The intent, Madam Mayor, some of the issues are going to be touchy, I guess, in the sense of the processes that happened in the past and what changes there might be. If that's not properly communicated, there could be issues, and that's the last thing that anybody wants. So it's about if issues aren't being resolved in the day-to-day contact with the staff and the like , that they get together, sit down and say, ‘This is what we need to do. Can we do it? Can't we do it?

So just in essence, you want a meeting convened with those particular people as per 0.7 and a bit of an agenda put together to discuss the issues?

When there's issues. Or is it the action

Plan?

I don't want to come in here and argue issues.

No, that's right. But you want a meeting to be set to do this.

Only if there's issues .

This is why we need clarification.

Only if the staff and the administration, everything's going fine. It's only if there's controversy . Excuse me. If there's controversy, we need to talk through it, and it's better off talking through it before.

Just to clarify though, your 0.6 says Council workshop the recommendations with Hawkesbury Sports Council, so that would mean the staff need to go and convene a meeting. To do just that, to discuss the recommendations. That's what you would like done. Because you're saying only if, but the way it's worded means go and do it now.

I think, excuse me, I think initially there needs some discussion. So an

Initial workshop.

Yeah.

Yep, no worries,

If you don't mind. So point 3, Councillor talks that an action plan be developed to implement the recommendations contained in the in-consult report . That, of course, in our intention, we are working hand in glove with the sports council as we develop that action plan. So I'm just questioning where we say perhaps council workshop the recommendations, could it be that council workshop the development of the action plan with the sports council? Does that meet your objective?

I'm sure it would, because there'll be issues when that's been set up, then you know where discussions need to be down the track. And I wanted to call them discussions because there will be some frustrations, and it needs to be worked through rather than resolved around this table of 12

Excellent. Well, if you're comfortable, just to make sure the staff are instructed correctly on what they're doing, the workshop is to workshop the action plan, to workshop the development of the action plan with the Hawkesbury Sports Council, which comes from the recommendations. Yeah

Yeah. I'm happy with that because it's going to be reported to council and stuff, and if there's issues,

It can be brought to council. They know what they're doing. That's all. So, Councillor Veigel, you're happy with that as a seconder? Yeah. Lovely, thank you. Sorry, we're just getting some logistical advice.

Yeah, we don't think we believe we need seven councillors, point seven,

Because that's a given. So the staff are saying it's, point seven is unnecessary because that would be who would be attending. It's up to you. It's just a point being made, but it can stay. Yep, it can stay. Okay, thank you, Councillor Sheather. Councillor Kotlash.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'm happy with those recommendations, although I do think seven is superfluous, but anyway, we'll keep going. I was noting on page 12 of the InConsult report where they've got their priority ratings of the recommendations, and there's high, medium and low. Now, I note that there's 13 recommendations under the high category. In the recommendations that we were just discussing, it says that the progress of the action plan be reported to Council briefing session on a regular basis. Is it possible for us to have a little bit more meat around that timing? Because this issue of the third-party reviews has just been kicking around Council, well, since 2018. And when I see a recommendation on a regular basis, I tend to cringe a bit. I would be more comfortable if we had some indication that we were going to look at those high priorities as a

Matter of priority. So could we just maybe—well, I'll ask a question. Is that possible for us to decide that now, or can— Can that be some meat put on those bones later on?

Yep, Director of Corporate Services.

Through you, Madam Mayor, the intention would be that we would go back to a council briefing every six months. Also the Audit, Risk and Improvement Committee, also seeking regular updates about how we're going with the action plan as well. And there'll be regular reports go back every six months to the ARIC.

Right, okay. That's good because I do note it says that the actions are a matter of priority within nine months, so I suppose that would carry off. And if something is happening or some controversy, as Councillor Sheather has indicated, we can get it sorted out before it just carries on and carries on. Thank you for that. That's excellent. Thank you.

Councillor Kotlash, I'll just allow the General Manager to make a remark.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I was simply going to add, Councillors, that we envisage a number of these action items here are going to require some difficult and in-depth decision making. So now we've got Councillor Sheather's amendments on the table, I'm sort of envisaging a process where, in we kind of get it to a particular point in the process with staff and the Sports Council, and then we'll bring Councillors into the fold either in a briefing or a more workshopped environment to nut out those. So I think we need to be clear that this is going to be a deeply iterative process as we work through the 30-odd recommendations.

Anyone else wishing to speak on the item? Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Thank you,

Madam Mayor. I do welcome the recommendations within this report and also the opportunity to workshop them with the Sports Council because one of the issues I've always had with this is a lack of information around certain aspects of the Sports Council that has not been delivered to Council. It benefits everyone to have the Sports Council operating as efficiently and as transparently as possible, and we know they do a good job of what they do. As a third party organisation of Council, it receives ratepayer funds as well as grant funding and money also from our ratepayers via sporting groups that various people belong to and which are part of the Sports Council. So when we're looking around all this, we must also remember, though, that not all sporting clubs or venues are part of the Sports Council.

Therefore, the accountability of funds that go from Council's coffers are really, really important. How funds are administered and allocated should be readily apparent to us as councillors and to the general public. And just a thing to note, I really, I don't know why the decision was made to call the lady who runs the Sports Council an administrator, but I think it's a really unfortunate term. I wish her job position was something like general manager or executive officer or something, because the word administrator to many people means that there's some issue going on, and I don't think that helps the cause of increasing the various accountability around it. This review is a good start in setting a framework around governance, and since the process started, there seems to have been some changes.

I noted some more minutes have been put on there. I had a look at those. But I want to be able to see the plans for the works and the funding allocations. I think, as a council body, we should be privy to the strategic documents. So the two- and five-year plans , which I would expect to see in a format so it could be followed to see how those plans are implemented, are not available. We have never seen those. Clearly the people doing the reports saw them, but we've never seen them, and I'd love to see them because I think they should be public documents. Council has a number of recommendations to implement ourselves, and the service level agreement will undoubtedly make a positive difference around the expectations of both parties.

I think it will give an opportunity for many of the perhaps issues that arise to be ironed out by having really clear guidelines and a clear service level agreement that actually gives a lot of clarity around that. Another area I think will be good to sort of nut out and work out how it works within this is around in-kind contributions. It's identified as a high priority within the review, and it also ties in with the recommended action for the Sports Council to develop a conflict of interest register. So we know within, you know, the passion and the high level of dedication of all those who work so hard in supporting sport. But I think when there is public money involved, it's really important to have registers such as that showing any connections between contractors or tenderers or particular sports, et cetera, to ensure that everyone involved is protected.

This did go to the last ARIC meeting, and the chair asked that the committee receive a report in six to nine months updating on how the recommendations are progressing. And I'm sure the general manager will explain if there's any hurdles in achieving that around negotiating outcomes connected to those recommendations. I raised some points in that review, and that was around financial auditing. I've since realised that the way it was worded within the review sort of alluded to the fact that the Sports Council did that themselves, but I think what it meant was the Sports Council appointed somebody to do that. But they can clarify that when we speak to them. I think the main thing, though, is that in reading the minutes and in trying to gauge what's really happening, there's no connection between the financial transactions that occur that link them to any of the operational or strategic plans .

And so you see a sum of money, and there's nothing to immediately say, well, this is part of this plan, or this is why we're buying something on behalf of some sporting club, or something like that. If we don't have these processes in place, we're falling short in ensuring appropriate levels of accountability of public funds. And there should also be information on tenders and contract agreements. But there may well be all this information; I'm sure there is. But it's about getting it so that we can see it and we can understand, and then we can translate that accountability to the community. Particularly when you don't like to hear, and I don't like to hear within the community, if anybody thinks there's any favoritism or anything going on within the Sports Council, I would like to be able to combat that by having the information in front of me that would say that that isn't the case.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Wheeler.

Just turn your microphone on if you've got a point to— is it misrepresentation, or?

Yeah, point seven. What I said, the council— Sports Council attend the workshops. I'm not suggesting that councillors aren't briefed or the like, but to have a workshop with 20, 30 people in it, it's not going to work. If there's workshops, we're trying to work through stuff, so that's why I had it. And so I wasn't proposing that councillors aren't involved. Just I'd like the issues, when they come here, to have something.. . Yeah, you know, that we can talk about rather than talk about the problem.

Thank you, Councillor. Are you happy with the adjustment made to point seven?

Representative, take the S off. Yeah. Yeah

Is that the intent? No. Can you clarify it, please, so we're not debating

The council sports council.

We're just getting that fixed.

Is that better, Councillor Sheather?

Thank you very much. Councillor Veigel, happy with that change?

Well, yeah, I am, but I think that if any councillor wishes to sit in the workshop, I don't think you should just restrict it.

The Sports Council meeting has always been an open meeting. Once a month, any councillor can attend as a visitor. People choose to, people don't choose to.

Okay, thank you, Councillor

But that's the... you know, if you want to leave it at that, leave it

At that, but it should be open to anybody. Perhaps an invitation, would you, Councillor Sheather, perhaps an invitation can be sent to councillors' diaries and they can elect to choose to come or not. It's not a compulsory, unless if you want to really go, Councillor Veigel, I'm sure you can go. I'm sure they won't kick you out. Okay. Sorry, Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Madam Mayor. I can see Councillor Veigel's concerns, because this isn't what.. . This is a change to what he asked, what he thought he was moving to start with. There's a big difference between a councilor workshop and just the councilor representative attending the workshop.

I'm now trying to do a quick read-through and work out where council fits into the iterative process that the general manager spoke about previously. And I don't want to sit in on all these discussions. You know, my interest in sport is even lower than it was when I was young and fit. And I'm happy to admit that publicly. It's not my thing. So can we clarify at what point this is going to come back to the elected body for input at a workshop phase? We don't want to be part of all of it, but when does it come to us, or are we just going to get this as a tick in the box at the end? Yeah,

Thank you, councillor. Councillor Sheather, this is your motion. I'm happy to sort of just workshop this to get it right. Is your intent with the support of your seconder, who has some reservations at the moment, you only want yourself, who is the councillor representative, to attend that workshop, not the other councillors?

But you don't want the other councillors to attend. I think this is where the issue is being

Raised. No, madam, that's definitely not the case. There's going to be some individual issues that need working through, and there needs to be some understanding about what it is. And just with the comments that's going around with the— That's been discussed tonight. You know, we're trying to resolve things, not discuss them for weeks and weeks. If there's issues, the staff will put up recommendations, and there'll be opportunities. Well, before even that, I hope there is workshops where this is discussed. This is a big issue.

Yeah, I won't allow debate to continue further on it. I just want to get the recommendation right with the support of the seconder who has just given reservations. I just want to speak to the general manager. I think the question is the trigger of when it comes back to the elected body and what the elected body do with it. Did you want to make a suggestion, Councillor Conolly?

I think I must be missing something, because to me it seems really, really simple that we're going through this process of making this agreement, and the suggestion is we just talk to the Sports Council along the way. I don't think that was my understanding. I didn't think there was a suggestion that there's just a big event we're having and we're going to have an all-in on it. We're already adopting the recommendations. We're just saying Council has adopted the recommendations tonight, so we're not changing that. We're just making sure there's a forum for council staff to talk to the Sports Council along the way about what those might mean. It's not—I didn't think it was—we're not rehashing anything. We're not going to go through it all again. So I think what's up there is fine from my perspective.

I'd happy to second it if Councillor. Councillor Veigel, are you still wanting to second that, or you're uncomfortable with it? Madam— Okay. Councillor Lyons-Buckett. I'm just wondering, with the point six council workshop, the development of the action plan with the Hawkesbury Sports Council, that isn't referring to councillors, so the council staff are going to have a

Workshop

Is that correct? And then the councillor representative would go to that workshop. I think what perhaps Councillor Sheather was hoping for was to have heard from us about any issues we have, which would then be particular things to be clarified, which is the missing sort of gap in this whole thing. Or perhaps it could be amended that any councillors that have questions for the Sports Council could attend the workshop in part.

Thank you, Councillor. I might just get the General Manager to make a suggestion.

I want to move an amendment.

Oh gosh, let's just hear this, which I don't know what the General Manager is going to say, but it could solve the problem. No

I don't have a huge amount of wisdom, Councillors, other than we're trying to kind of get ourselves six steps ahead of where we're actually at in the process right now, and that seems to be causing us some difficulty. As I understand it, Councillor, I think Councillor Conolly has articulated what Councillor Sheather is after is about an ongoing collaborative discussion with the Hawkesbury Sports Council initially, as I understand it, and then what the next piece of the puzzle is before we finalise each of these individual action items and present them to Council, we want them then round tabled around with the elected Council for that to sort of pressure test your level of comfort with those individual action items and also, I guess, ultimately need to be a decision maker on any points of disagreement.

So I've kind of got a process line in my head, Councillors. I just probably need to think about how we articulate that. Councillor Conolly.

Can I suggest, for clarity, we could delete point 7. Point 6 could say, Council commits to collaboratively engaging the Sports Council throughout the development of the action plan and whatever the word is, the service level agreement.

Councillor Sheather, this is still your motion, or I think Councillor Conolly is going to move an amendment.

I'll be happy with that, Madam Mayor. Okay

Thank you. We'll just get the staff to articulate that on the board if they captured that.

Councillor Veigel, would you be happy with that, even though we're sort of changing as we go, but this is what we do at 10.50 at night, I suppose. So we'll just get that up on the board so that we know what we're discussing. I don't think it has changed from the intent Councillor Sheather initiated. I think it is just tidying it up.

Okay. And was it delete point seven,

Councillor Conolly? Councillor Sheather, what did you want to do with point seven? It's your motion. Leave it? No? Delete it? Delete it? Okay. Councillor Veigel, are you okay with that? Okay, great. I think we're getting there. Councillor Wheeler, have— did you—

I just asked a question previously. So what I would really like to see with that action plan is that it's run past the risk management index that we've just passed as well, because I think it's, you know, Sports Council has a really big responsibility in managing council's assets, spending some of council's money, but also providing facilities that are really important to the community. You know, just because they're not important to me doesn't mean they're not important to everybody else or lots of other people. Yeah, and I think we— a lot of that labour is voluntary, and I think we have to be really careful that we protect those people, you know, and make sure that we as an organisation are managing the risk that we are offloading to them.

And they take it on in good faith. They deserve— They deserve to be treated carefully in that process, I think. I'm not inferring that we don't, but we have now put in place this system, and I think this would be a really good spot to use it.

Sorry, Councillor, just confirming, had you spoken, and this is a question

No, no, that's a— this is, I'm speaking now. Yeah, I've got your

Name written down. I'm just clarifying.

I asked a question previously.

Yeah, I think we're off with the timer. That's all. That's fine.

I've now lost my train of thought.

Thank you, Councillor. Anyone else wishing to speak? No, right of reply, Councillor Sheather?

Yeah, thanks Madam Mayor. Thanks for those comments, Councillor Wheeler, and the comments that Councillor Mary Lyons-Buckett spoke of

When you go through the documents and have a look at them, they don't rate well, but you need to look at the rating structure and what it come from. With accountability, there's three audits that are done. The

Sports Council always has an audit, and then with Council's policy, it's got to be audited again by Council's auditor. Then it comes into Council's documents, and it's audited again. So, and in 35 years there's never been an issue with any of the funding arrangements, or a million dollars of it

Well, it's 1.3 now. But the 0.3's got nothing to do with what I spoke about the other day. That's what it is. But there's 20 to 30,000— between 20 and 30,000 people use 38 of our grounds a week, and there's 3,000 volunteers that make that happen. And in 35 years, there hasn't been an issue with council in relation to

Any activities. And one insurance claim the council decided to deal with that— I won't go into that—but it was for a small claim in 35 years. That's from competitors or from spectators. Now, if anyone else can come up with anything even close to that, then I'd be more than surprised, considering the amount of people that use those grounds on a regular basis. Councillor Mary Lyon-Buckett said there's some sporting activities that aren't involved with the Sports Council. That irritated me for 35 years , even with organisations that have got some arrangement with the council, where we've got sporting clubs, for instance, that have grounds, that you've got a soccer ground, a football ground, and you've got a building there, a kiosk and all the rest of it.

That's part of that cost for the year. And then you've got things like the Upper Hawkesbury Power, but clubs fall in the river, that they pay a rent on it, which is probably, I don't know, probably looking at seven, eight thousand dollars compared to a season for a sports ground is just under a thousand dollars, $870. So there's discrepancies in lots of places . And then you've got pony clubs that don't pay nothing. Yeah, you know. So that's, everybody needs to pay their way to a degree, but it needs to be fair and just. So that's the issues that I've had with organisations. Then we had the issue, like, come up with the tennis courts at Richmond recently

But within the report, and when you read through it, for those that's been involved with the Sports Council, there's bits of it that are frustrating, because it makes assessment on some of the basis that it's not happening. Well, there is a financial structure. The two and five-year plans go through a process. The Sports Council, we don't build Taj Mahals or the likes; they never have done. And it goes through a process, and that works worked out on the basis that there's up to five users on the ground, so that you've got to accommodate those users, especially when you've got floods and we had 17 grounds closed. You've got to accommodate those users to do particular works , and that can be frustrating.

And we're lucky enough to have relations with other neighbouring councils that they've been able to utilise other grounds. So when we talk about putting fees up, we spoke about the briefing, and you think I'm frustrated, the benefits are involving those people at minimal cost. The contribution they put in is twice the amount of money the council provides a year.

Twice the amount. And they do it because they love the sport.

And so, when we're discussing these things, just be mindful that for 35 years they've done it well. And hard—when I say hardly any issues, from time to time there's some people that, very, very few, that might have a bit of a gripe. But in saying that, this should resolve all that.

Thank you, Councillor. Your time has expired. All those in favour, please raise your hand. In favour, Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather, Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor McMahon. Absent from the room is Councillor Zamprogno. I declare the item carried.

Councillor Conolly.

Move that we adjourn the meeting until the 28th of May.

Do I have someone to second that? Councillor Reardon. No

No, don't adjourn it.

Hold on a second. Hold on a second. I'm just obtaining some advice.

Sorry. I need you to defer consideration to the next ordinary meeting, which is the 28th of May. I can't action the quarterly budget review or the funding

Okay, just a technical thing with wording because of the quarterly budget review. The general manager will explain.

Through you, councillors, I'm seeking that you close tonight's meeting with the remaining items on the agenda to be considered at the next ordinary meeting, which is the 28th, rather than an adjournment, which would mean I can't action the matters that have been resolved this evening. That's all.

Councillor Conolly, you would like to?

Defer consideration . What's your motion, sorry, Councillor

Conolly? To defer consideration of these items till the next meeting.

Thank you. Would someone like to second that, please? Seconding, Councillor Reardon, and confirming that the date of the next meeting is the 28th of May at 6:30 p.m. All those in favour Sorry, Councillor Sheather.

Councillor Dogramaci, in the confidential documents put a motion that's going to be discussed. He's going to be away on one of the meetings, so I just wonder whether that item, considering it is a report, that it could be left to the meeting where he's here to address any concerns or issues that he may wish to—

I'll just confer with staff.

One moment. Councillor Dogramaci, you're away. You will be absent on the 28th?

Yes, yes. I have two overseas trips. I'll be back on the 10th of June.

For the June meeting?

Yes, yes. Meeting is on the 11th.

Yeah.

So I'll be here on

The 10th. I'll just confirm what's possible.

It would require an explicit resolution of the council. It's on tonight's agenda, so unless council resolves otherwise, we would be putting it to the meeting of the 28th of May.

Could I change my motion, but if you haven't put it yet?

Well,

We haven't voted yet. Okay

I'd rather move that we deal with the confidential items and then defer all other business till the meeting of the 28th of May.

Do I have someone willing to second that, Councillor Veigel? All those in favour, please raise your hand. In favour, Councillor Reardon, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Sheather.

Yep

Councillor Conolly, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Calvert, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Djuric, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor McMahon. Absent from the room is Councillors Zamprogno. I declare the item carried and we'll now move into confidential.

Thank you, everybody. We will now resume the open session of Council, and I'll hand over to the General Manager to read the outcome of the confidential item. Thank you, Madam Mayor. In regards to item 8.4.1 regarding the outcome of request for quotations, investigation into rising main C, whilst in closed session the Council resolved on the motion of Councillor Kotlash, seconded by Councillor Conolly, that Council seek three new quotations for the purpose of undertaking the independent investigation into matters related to the failure and repair of rising main C, with particular emphasis on subject matter expertise. For the motion were Councillors Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Djuric, Dogramaci, Calvert, Conolly, Sheather, Reardon and Councillor McMahon.

Against the motion were Councillor Vargel and Councillor Kotlash, and absent for the vote was Councillor Zamprogno. Thank you, General Manager. I now declare the meeting closed at 11.28 p.m. Thank you, everyone.