This transcript and its speaker attributions were generated with AI assistance and may contain errors. Speaker names may be corrected in later releases. It is provided for search and accessibility; the official Council minutes remain authoritative.
Good evening everyone. Welcome to the Hawkesbury City Council meeting of the 12th of November 2024. I'd like to welcome all those attending the meeting tonight in the gallery and those who may be watching online. Hawkesbury City Council acknowledges the Dharug and Dharug people as the traditional custodians of the land of the Hawkesbury. We pay respect to all elders past, present and emerging, acknowledge all Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islander people as first people of this country. I'll hand over to the General Manager.
Thank you, Mr Mayor. Members of the public attending the meeting are advised that in the event of an emergency, you will be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit following the guidance of our warden. I would also like to advise that in accordance with Clause 5.33 of the Code of Meeting Practice, meetings of the Council are recorded. In the terms of the Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, this may involve the recording of personal information provided at the time of the meeting. The recordings are made to assist staff in compiling the minutes of the meeting and to enable the podcasting and live stream of Council meetings. The provision of any information that is recorded is voluntary.
If any person does not wish to be recorded, they should not address or request to address the meeting. The gallery can be seen in the live stream video. If you do not wish to be recorded in the live stream, please move to the foyer and we will turn on the foyer speakers for you. A recording may be made available to other persons where such access is in accordance with the relevant regulations. The recordings are stored on Council's record management system and uploaded to Council's website. Meetings of the Council may be separately recorded with the prior authority of the Council. For the benefit of those persons will be addressing the Council tonight, it is expected that you will refrain from making any insult, allegation or personal reflection against any person present or not at this meeting.
This request relates to both your address to Council and any answers given in response to questions from Councillors. Finally, it's also requested that if you're participating in the meeting or attending the meeting this evening, you've got your mobile phone on you, can you please turn it off or turn it to silent. Thank you, Mr Mayor.
Good evening, Mayor and Councillors. So my name is Kenneth Leung, and I'm an Associate Director with the Audit Office of New South Wales with the Financial Audit Branch. It's a very pleasure to be with you tonight. Firstly, thank you very much for the pleasure to present on the conduct of the 2024 audit of Hawkesbury City Council. I would like to start by thanking management and Council, as well as the finance team, for the professionalism and cooperation extended to the audit team during the course of the audit. Before discussing the conduct of the audit, I'd like to make some short general comments.
So this year we celebrated the Audit Office's bicentennial celebrations. For 200 years, the Audit Office of New South Wales has been conducting audits on behalf of the Parliament of New South Wales, and the Auditor-General for New South Wales continues to help the New South Wales Parliament hold government accountable for its use of public resources. We gained the mandate to audit local governments in 2016, and this year would be our eighth year working with Hawkesbury City Council for the external audits. So next slide, please. Yeah.
So in August, we released our annual work program. The key theme this year is the integrity of systems, which is essential to both good advice and good governance. This will drive the main topics for our upcoming performance audits. So next slide, please.
So some of the planned performance audits in the forward years include road asset management, which is very topical at the moment, coastal management reforms, and long-term financial planning. And some of the forward ones for the next three years include climate risk to local government assets and services, the Western Sydney Aerotropolis, performance management and monitoring, waste management, and audits of governance issues within a particular council. Next slide, please. We are also looking forward to reporting our areas of focus in the 2023-24 Local Government Sector Report to Parliament, which will touch on the following themes: so audit results, financial controls, IT and cybersecurity, governance including fraud control, conflicts, business continuity planning, and internal audits.
So I'll now turn to our report on the conduct of the audit. So we have completed our audit of Council's financial statements for 30 June 2024, and I'm pleased to report to you today that we issued a clean, unmodified audit opinion on the 8th of October for your Council's financial statements for the year ended 30 June 2024, which means that Council's financial statements contain no material misstatements and are fairly presented. The Office of the Local Government's code sets out what needs to be covered by the report on the conduct of the... Sorry, back one slide, please.
So now looking at the income statements and the results for Council, overall rates and annual charges increased by about 7.8 percent, and this was largely driven by the rate peg increase, as well as an increase in annual charges levy. Council also experienced an increase in the grants and contributions revenue, which was largely due to an increase in special purpose grants and also non-developer contributions recognised during the year as well.
Council's operating results from continuing operations was also higher than the previous year, and this was partially because of the increase in total revenue offset by a smaller increase in the expenses. And the net operating result before capital grants was relatively stable from last year.
So next slide, please. So the OLG issues six industry benchmarks, which we do audit, and generally speaking, Hawkesbury Council met all of the performance ratios except for a couple. The own source operating revenue ratio, which measures the proportion of grants and contribution revenue to Council's overall total income, and this is impacted by the fact that Council did receive and recognise a lot of grants revenue over the last few years in response to natural disasters, which is not unexpected, and also the rates and annual charges outstanding percentage, which is probably a reflection in terms of cost of living pressures and other things that impact the rate payers. Again, this is not Council is not alone in this factor, and it is a reflection of the broader economy and trends.
The item before Council at the moment is item 10.4.1, Audited Financial Statements for the year ending 30th of June 2024. Would someone like to move? Deputy Mayor.
Just for clarification, it looks like in the business paper that we have a surplus of 13.9 million. Is that really a surplus, or is that money that we've received that's allocated and waiting to be used?
Through you, Mr. Mayor. So that's basically a reflection of disaster recovery funding. So the income statement is operating, but the expenditure is on the capital side. So, yeah, it's a reflection of future expenditure, past expenditure and expenditure during the year that just isn't matched within the operating statement.
Thanks. So I think it's one of those things that we need to be mindful of, that when we put out documents like this, that a superficial reading look like Council has socked away $13 million worth of ratepayers' money, and it's an easy allegation to say that Council is overcharging, for example, and not delivering services. And I think we need to be clear that that is very much not the case, that this is money that we've received to make good on things that still need repair in the long term. So thanks for clarifying that. Just a couple of other things to comment on. We do have— We do have an issue with outstanding charges, and that is largely unchanged. So that doesn't appear to be something that is caused solely by recent increases in cost of living.
That has been a long-term issue for Hawkesbury Council, and something we need to be mindful of. And I do note that the report discusses the systems that are in place for people who are experiencing hardship. And I would add for anyone who is listening who is experiencing hardship, please come in and speak to council staff in confidence about dealing with those hardships, rather than sitting at home and letting those issues fester. Thanks.
Councillors, we have four speakers to tonight's meeting for item 10.3.2, the draft Ripbank Creek flood study, and for item 12.1.1, notice of motion forming a new committee.
Mr Mayor, councillors, members of the actual council, members of the public, I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to speak to you tonight, and I would also like to say that I am thankful that they are doing and have done this study. Unfortunately, I'm here to point out the flaws that I've already found in that study. I ask this to be presented as the flood study when there are issues that pertain to Redbank Creek that are not included in the study. Secondly, the lack of consultation with the local residents living along the creek, especially those who've lived on the creek for in excess of 25 years. I've lived on the creek for 33 and a half years, and there have been issues that this study does not cover, because those who conducted the study did not consult the residents concerned, and the questionnaire of 2023 was so superficial and narrow it did not allow for detail, and those doing the study were obviously ignorant of these facts and other issues.
Mandy did not do the survey, as they had a bad opinion of the council and how the residents are treated, elderly pensioners and retirees, and do not use computers, and many were unaware of it and therefore few responses that they got were not a total indication of the behaviour of the water in the creek. I ascertained this by a walk-on all residents backing onto the creek. Every waterway has its own character and cannot be treated as a textbook, as appears to be as outlined in this State guidelines. The issues that have previously been overlooked are, number one, the creek is a very, very windy narrow creek with massive numbers of bends that are not conducive to high velocity or excess water flows.
The creek is now being used as a stormwater drain outlet for Redbank Estate, which consists of approximately 179.2 hectares, which is 442.4 acres of development. The creek cannot handle excessive stormwater velocity and the volume being put into the creek i.e. Steel Park outfall, my talks with the Hawkesbury River Nepean Trust was that the creek could not handle any more than five cubic per one hour. This was prior to the Redbank development and is not mentioned in the report. The impact study of the Redbank Creek for the development was also done in a 20-year drought with no consultation with those living on the creek bank. The report makes no mention of the stormwater being run into the creek or its impact.
Development has been changed, thus the flow of the water into the creek has also been altered. The government as the control body of the creek has never cleaned the debris, the fallen trees, the flood debris, chairs, logs, trees, fencing, toys, tools, ladders, etc. from the waterway ever to my knowledge. Even when one council engineer in 2020 stated that the trees had fallen across the creek higher up and would impact the flow and the flood height, nothing was done. I was told to just plant more trees when seven had just been washed away. This was the first incident of erosion and damage, including the $64,000 damage to a retaining wall that was damaged, which my insurance covered. This is serious damage that is now being caused.
Number five, the creek has in the past flooded in a manner that it rose very gradually, occasionally breaking the banks and then go down gradually, as in the floods from the 1990s up to 2019, with no damage or erosion to the waterway. Sorry, not all flooding of the creek coincides with the flood of the Hawkesbury River. Therefore, the, quote, out of the actual report that was on the website, quote, derived from the simulated water level of the North Richmond Bridge. And then we have the ignorance about the actual flooding patterns of the creek prior, or since extensive overland development means that this study is not accurate and therefore flawed. Seven, the properties in Bradley Road that back onto the creek have not even been included in this report, and it's not mentioned in the report anyway.
Further to this, Redbank Estate allows their stormwater to access the creek on a downgrade through Peel Park as very high velocity and volumes reaching the already flooded creek at a 90 degree angle. I sent video of this to the council, but they've told me they've got no correspondence from me from July 2022 with all that documentation and photos. All the other parties who were cc'd that correspondence received it. The debris in the creek causes a whirlpool effect on the water that causes damage and erosion to the banks and the properties along the creek. This also causes problems to the water flow, caused by the government failure to clear the debris of the creek. I have video of this as well, another aspect of the flooding that this report does not cover.
There have been two occasions when the small park in Cesella Crescent goes underwater, and from somewhere there is underground pressure that causes fountains out of the access pits in the underground pipes in the park. This is possible serious health hazard and is coming possibly from sewer pipes. There is now serious erosion around the stormwater inlet that has been there since the development of Cesella Crescent area and has never been an issue. This erosion has caused the pipes now to protrude out into the creek, thus causing an obstruction and impedance to the water flow and further erosion. Further to this is now the very fast rise in levels in the creek within hours. I cite April 2024, where the creek rose a minimum of 15 to 20 feet in height in a matter of about two to three hours at the worst velocity I have ever witnessed in 33 years on a creek in all my years here, and it was frightening.
This was at approximately 3 a. m. in the morning, and I'd been sitting up all night watching the creek. So for the water to rise in such a quick time to such a great height, something is wrong upstream, and this report does not cover the rising heights of water levels in flood times. The other alarming aspect to those on the creek was the quick time the water level dropped. Now, if the river was in flood, this would not happen in this manner. So this leads to the fact that other factors are at play in relation to water in the creek and thus the land development, re-land runoff that has not been looked into in this study. This velocity and the drastic rise of heights has never been evident in the past years of my living on the creek.
There has been mention in the community that Redbank Estate has a pump attached to the dams and do pump and let water out of the dams to stop flooding within their development, and that in one instance they actually made an opening in the dam wall to let the water go.
Thank you, Mr Mayor. Thank you, Ms Hayden, for your address. It's very obvious that you've put a lot of work into this and you know a lot about the area where you live. My question is, do you think this is a good start, even though you've pointed out where you think there might be some flaws?
As I said in the beginning, I'm glad they've done it, but what they've put forward so far, even to go on public demonstration, is, in my opinion, seriously flawed.
Because it's such a big report and it's so comprehensive, I'm erring towards we'll put it out there. And are you willing to put your submission to this again to this? Yes, I am. Yep, perfectly Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you. Anyone
Thank you. Thank you, Pat. Thank you. I was going to ask a similar thing because I think perhaps it needs to go out. Aside from what you've already told us, is it that you would rather see a few other aspects of this study undertaken in addition to what's been done
Rather than, when you say the flaws in it, you're actually saying there's an omission of important information rather than there being anything wrong with what's
Okay, so something's not in it. And do you think there was a reasonably low uptake of people responding in the first instance, but do you think if people had the actual mapping and were advised perhaps individually by mail or by some way that there would be a bigger response from people?
By mail it might be. I did a walk-to-walk from all of the houses along the creek that back onto it. Took me two days. Catch everybody at home. Most of the people were not interested because of their attitude towards the council or the way they have been treated by council in the past. A lot were retirees and elderly pensioners who live on their own, and they don't have access to computers, and they're elderly, so they don't have the same comprehension as the younger people of the situation, even though one lady in her eighties has been affected and lost most of her backyard. So yeah, it's worth a try.
Else with questions? Mr. Dogramaci. Yes, I have a couple of questions. Good evening, Madam. Thank you. A couple of things. Since you are so much into this and you are trying to somehow come to some kind of a resolution, have you approached the council prior to tonight? Yes. And what kind of response did you get?
They said it's nothing of their responsibility, and one of the aspects that I didn't get to cover was that apparently the SES have told the council, I think it might have been 2022, that there was no flood. Now, that is incorrect because I rang the SES and they said your area is not included in the flood area even though the water was flashing around my back steps.
But I actually put all of this, the documentation of what happened in a report. I also put it in with my submission to the Senate inquiry and the state inquiry.
Okay. I have another question. On page three, when you say that there has been no consultation with the residents— That is correct. —which Councillor Buckett very briefly mentioned. Now, have you personally received any kind of call, email or letter or anything
Okay, okay. Well. What do you suggest we should do? We can. I mean, all these things have been prepared. I mean, you left it, you know, for the last minute.
Marjorie Hearn(public speaker - resident of North Richmond)
I have resided at the same address in Elizabeth Street for 43 years. Prior to that, I lived in Glossodia for 10 and have seen significant rain and flood events over the 53 years in the Hawkesbury area. And although it has been suggested by one of your senior employees that a degree of collective memory loss is probable within the community, I can assure you that my memory is very clear and accurate. Never in this time prior to Redbank Estate being developed have we had any issues with Redbank Creek, and never have we ever been impacted by the flooding or levels of the Hawkesbury River. We have had many significant rain events over the years, and the creek has swollen and run faster, but it has never breached onto the riverbank.
However, on Sunday the 6th of March 2022, it was definitely running faster and was starting to breach the bank, and then it started rising swiftly by about a three metre— Gap and then drained away, and all of this occurred in a space of just over an hour, or a bit more. It was a little bit more than an hour. The ferocity of the water raging past took out trees, vegetation, and chunks of the riverbank soil, and have washed away many animals and their habitats. The creek reached a level never seen before and was being directed back up the stormwater drain into the street in front of a few homes and rose up the driveways of the homes. So the water was levelling itself from back to front. We had toilets gurgling, which meant that the sewage system was also being compromised.
At the time of this event occurring, the rain had stopped an hour before this, so we should have been seeing a slight drop in the creek level. I can verify all this as we were watching the level constantly throughout the night, and it was light when this surge occurred and we could see what was happening, and I also have photo and videos. The only way for water to gush with the height and speed it did was for a large volume of water to have been released all at once. There was no way that the rain event caused this. The exact same thing happened again on the 6th of April 2024 at 3 a.m., and this occurred after only two days of heavy rain. Again, water gushing and rising and receding within an hour or so, and this time the water level was slightly higher than in 2022.
Redbank Estate was contacted in 2022 and was told over the phone by an office employee that they had been discharging water into the Redbank Creek from a dam. He mentioned Dam 13, which to my knowledge is the dam next to the Butlers Pantry Cafe, and it has a pump on it. Once I mentioned that I had almost been flooded, he straight away did not offer up any more information, and I unfortunately had not got his name. A while after this, my husband visited the office at Redbank Estate and spoke with a site worker who happened to be in the office at the time, and he told him that we took the side out of the dam, and the dam he was referring to is a large dam on a hill just after the roundabout at Gross River Road.
Once my husband told him what had happened, he again provided no more information. I also have a photo of the cut in the dam. We are not the only ones affected by this. There are people who have lost most of their backyard fencing has been destroyed, retaining walls washed away, backyard items washed away, garden beds ruined, and one house has lost a yard up to their back steps. And many are in no position either financially or physically to replace or repair. What has been damaged or lost? Insurance premiums have gone up due to us being in a flood zone, and there are a portion of aged persons who are affected by this who are on pensions, so this is a large financial drain to them. After the 2022 incidents, there was a huge amount of debris left in the creek and along the sides of the creek.
There are many items left behind, and I am mentioning to Council in emails that we need a clean-up of the whole creek area, and it needs to be under the bridge that crosses over the Bells Line of Road, as any obstruction that occurs there could cause a bank-up of water that will come back and hinder the flow past our homes. Nothing has ever been done, and it becomes a blame game as to who is responsible for it. We're not sure whether it's state or local government or a combination, but whoever is responsible should be doing this before another rain event occurs when it will be too late. After reading the draft, I have noticed that Redbank Estate has not been questioned in regards to these incidents, other than we were told in an email back from Council that pumps had been used in 2021, so that is solid proof that pumps do exist and that they can and do use them.
I have no doubt that pumps were used in 2022 and 2024. I have had email and phone exchanges with a senior employee of the Redbank Communities, and his advice was to wait for the draft to be released. But in the meantime, I had asked him to investigate as to how so much water came into the creek in high velocity and depth, but to this day I still have no answer for that. Also, there are a lot of facts and information regarding flood levels that have nothing to do with our concerns, as we are again not affected by the Hawkesbury River. Also, when the study was done for the Redbank Estate development on flood risk, it was done in the middle of a 20-year drought, so the accuracy of that could be questioned, and no one that lived along the creek was consulted about the creek's flood pattern or wildlife and plant existence.
Some questions and items that have been addressed are answered include Section 233(1) states, in part, that local government is to protect attractive landscape and preserve places of natural beauty. No protection or preservation appears to be happening, with huge gushes of water and debris washing away most of the wildlife. I'm cutting this bit shorter because I need to get through it. Under this plan, it could be also mentioned we need to respect— Respect the Indigenous history connected to the Darug people who lived in this area, and a site dedicated them in Redbank Estate near Redbank Creek was damaged and in disrepair the last time I visited the area. The SEPP resilience and hazards. This speaks for itself, as the adverse effects have taken place and Redbank Community Management is nowhere to be seen and has not offered any help or even had the decency to come out and inspect the damage after they were asked to, nor have they taken any responsibility to admitting if water was released.
Another thing that under the Hawkesbury New South Wales Gov development controls, clearly the water flows have exceeded the levels. There was a thing that said that we should not, the pre-development flows for all storms from the 1 in 1 year ARI to the 1 in 100 ARI storm. Well, we seem to have exceeded that because we've had such an impact with the water coming through, the correcting the flow of the water may have no impact, as we've previously said. Another point says existing dams are to be retained or adapted to become future water bodies. The safety issue with the dams is that a lot of them have been modified from what they were, which were solid 60-year-old structures that have been changed, and there are now only nine, so far less water storage.
Marjorie Hearn(public speaker - resident of North Richmond)
Okay. I'd like you to all read the rest of it, please, because there is some very important information and facts that are on the bottom of it, but I would like everyone to actually take note of and take into consideration. Okay. Thank you.
Yes, yes, to the flood study. And I can tell you what it is while it's maybe coming up on the screen. It's an alteration to point one to have the flood study put on public exhibition for a period of 60 days rather than 28. And point two would be—I'm just checking that was received. I'll just have to read it here. Sorry, oh, it's up now. Ah, yes, point two, that Council notify all property owners within the identified study area from upstream. It's important that because it's a cumulative waterway, obviously, that the upstream people are included and that they're notified for the opportunity to provide feedback, and that the outcome of the public exhibition—well, point three is what is point two in the business paper. So I'd like to move that, Mr Mayor. I'll second
Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'll speak to that. I also am pleased to see that a study like this has commenced, and I take on board what the speakers have raised. There's an obvious amount of questions that have come forward. 28 days at this time of year is simply not enough time for something of this magnitude and importance to be dealt with. 60 days can allow, and 60 days, once people are advised about it, too, allows people to absorb the information and hopefully provide some feedback. And, you know, we're heading into the end of school chaos and people have additional obligations, etc. There's a really large volume of documents. However, if it goes on public exhibition and people are able to look at those maps, it will assist them in giving their feedback on their experiences that are particular to them.
If we really want to hear the thoughts of the community, and as both speakers have raised, there's potentially some other areas that have to be looked at. I'm particularly concerned when we hear about this rapid rise and decline of water, which is indicative that it's not the backup water from the river, but more to do with localised water at the back of the creek there, at the back of the older part of the North Richmond development.
We know that there are impacts occurring down there, and we really need to understand what exactly is happening so that we can get this flood study right. It's imperative that we capture their experiences, and the study states that the focus of it is to improve understanding of flood behaviour within the Redbank Creek catchment and the local overland flooding mechanism. So I think that we really, really need to get to the bottom of it and find out what's going on, because having this study will then allow us to better manage flooding in that particular area. We also know, of course, that flood behaviours are changing and that alterations in hydrological and geomorphological factors of creeks and river systems are occurring, and it's just so essential we get it right.
I'm pleased to see the study has investigated several climate change scenarios, which is expected to indicate there will be increases in rainfall intensity, and we know that that has the potential for significant impact on riverine and overland flooding. The predicted river rises in such intense rainfall events need to be really carefully understood. We really need to understand how that will impact all the development in North Richmond, and not just North Richmond, the development along the river on both sides of that. Councillor Wheeler and I have been, over the last couple of years, to some areas along Redbank Creek to look at what the impacts of the flooding has been, and it is quite obvious.
It's quite easy to see what has been happening there, but that doesn't mean that we've necessarily understood the source of why that has happened and exactly why the water has behaved in the way it has. So I would ask councillors to support this going out for the longer period of time, and within that time to do our best to all raise awareness about it, to capture as much information as possible, and we want to hear those experiences, but- But we also, if there are questions to Redbank, we could potentially be asking those and getting clarification during that period before it were to come back to Council. Thank you.
Mr Mayor, I'm very supportive of this motion because I have worked in this area and seen these effects, and people have spoken to me about it, so I'd be very supportive.
Thank you, Mr Mayor. I have to thank Councillor Lyons-Market for bringing this changed recommendation and motion. I think it's very sensible. I'm glad that it's an extension of 60 days. I was thinking of doubling it, but that's about—I think 60 days, especially over Christmas, is good. What I was going to ask was, because this area is really technical, and it was—I mean, the report we have is very technical and comprehensive. Even for somebody like me who's worked in this area before, it's hard going. So I'd like to get an indication from staff about having a public meeting to be able to explain to people what all of these terms mean. I mean, it's hard when you know it, but when you don't know it, it's a very, very hard ask for people to understand what's happening. So can I just get some idea of the possibility of a meeting? A public meeting
You. Through you, Mr Mayor, yes, certainly. Look, a public meeting is something that can be facilitated to bolster that face-to-face engagement and increase understanding.
I suppose the other thing is, when would be the best timing for a public meeting? Because not at the end, when people are sort of, you know, I was going to say faffed about, but really, I mean, people will faff about because they, I think we need to help people come to grips with this. So maybe before Christmas?
Sorry, Mr Mayor, would it be possible to put a timeline on a public meeting to happen within a 30-day period? That way it gives residents the next 30 days to do a submission, if
Possible? Yep. The motion indicates exhibition for a minimum of 60 days. So if the staff feel they can't come in in a Christmas holiday period, it might have to be extended. So,
Thank you. Through you, Mr Mayor, it absolutely is perfectly logical, Councillors, that if we are going to hold a public meeting, we do that as early on as possible in the community engagement process. So subject to availability of specialist consultants and all those sorts of things, that we will absolutely try to conduct any public meeting before Christmas.
Thank you, Mayor. The two speakers tonight did raise a particular point that concerns me. So I accept from what Will said at a previous meeting that one flood is not directly comparable to another, and there can be regional areas of rainfall which affects local flooding. What concerns me about this particular, these recent events is the rapid rise in the floodwater. That can happen, but the fact that the floodwater then rapidly fell suggests that there's no backlog and it's not a direct effect of flooding downstream. So, and this is something I did bring up at a previous council meeting, it concerns me with such a major development how runoff must be increased. I mean, concrete slabs, concrete driveways, roadways, the water has to go somewhere.
It can't collect into the ground. around and ultimately will run off. And I think this fact needs, or this matter needs to be carefully considered. And I would strongly encourage further submissions and exploration of this particular problem. I think this development has major impacts on the surrounding area, needs to be carefully managed. Thank you. Thank you.
Study, or to the exhibition of the study. Perhaps we could add a point for that there'd be a public meeting held as soon as possible to allow residents to make an informed comment. Because otherwise we're just going to get the same comments that we've already had. And Councillor Kotlash is correct. This is a complicated and technical study, and we need to have a public meeting where people are able to ask questions, where they're able to dig into the data and the assumptions presented, and come away informed. So a public meeting where flood boffins, for want of the more technical term, talk at the public and tell them what they've seen. That's not going to solve the issue, but people may as well just read the study and be as informed as they were before they walked in. This is going to be, I think, going to need to be a two-way street. One of the
There's a real issue here that we've heard from people, firstly about public trust, but secondly, and it's in the conclusion of Marjorie Hearn's speech that she didn't get to, and I'm going to read it out because I think it's really important. We purchased land and homes here because at the time we were in no danger. We'd done our homework and the risk of water inundation was almost zero. It was the ideal place to have nature and wildlife around us. But now, due to no fault of our own, we are faced with higher insurance premiums, definite flooding risk to our homes and belongings, costly repairs, and the worst of all is the nightmare of fear that every time it rains, what are we facing? You try to live with that every day.
This is one of those moments, I think, as a councillor, having done this for eight years, sometimes I sit here and think, who do I think I am that I'm able to make these judgments that affect other people's lives and the way they live? And this is one of those moments, I think, where as councillors we need to stop and think, what are we doing that has such a profound impact on people's homes and their fear of living in those homes? We know that we have a traumatised community in areas where they've been flood impacted. I think we are clear when those impacts occur on the peninsula at Windsor, in parts of South Windsor, St Albans and Colo, and places like that. But we've been, I think, quite ignorant about the impacts of people who live along Redbank Creek.
They're here now and they're telling us that they're scared and that they feel let down, and we need to do something about that. There's, I think we have to have a serious conversation about the impacts of development, particularly developments on hillsides, and their impacts on the people who are below them, before we get any further development, and we know that it's coming our way. The talk about rise and velocity in the river is really frightening. The impacts on infrastructure, I think, is something that we need to be really cognisant of. We also need to be cognisant of the fact that Council will take over management of Redbank in the future, and we will be responsible for those dams. We will also be responsible for the drainage that's on that site, and we need to understand the impacts of that on the people who live downstream.
Yobarnie is not an ordinary site. From the time that PA Yeomans engineered that site, it has been a completely different ball game from any other hillside that exists. It was engineered to hold water. It's internationally renowned for its capacity to hold and manage water runoff, and once that engineering has been removed, Redbank Creek, which is where it now runs, has been altered forever as well. We need to acknowledge that, we need to work with it, and we need to have a flood study that includes that and is capable of keeping those residents downstream informed and safe.
Thank you, Mr Mayor. Thank you to the speakers who delivered their very personal experiences and assessments tonight. Having met the speakers and Particularly as the mayor, and just prior to becoming the mayor, when Councillor Conolly was still the mayor in 2022, visited many homes, and I was just checking my correspondence back from that time, which was a significant amount of emails to our staff, properties particularly for myself in Merrick Street and Elizabeth Street. I was just hoping before I say any more, I was trying to find the answers to a lot of my questions. I know that one of our staff members looked heavily into this situation and the impact of Redbank on the creek. I was just hoping the staff could give me a quick summary of the findings from that a couple of years ago when I think it was Mr. Boe did an analysis and some investigations with Redbank and the SES, if that's okay.
Through you, Mr Mayor, I vaguely recall the work, but I'd have to take it on notice in terms of what the outcome was. It's been a number of years since I've looked at it. Yeah,
Thank you. I couldn't find the correct email in my inbox and sent items either, so that's okay, thank you. I just wanted to touch on the fact that since that time, and obviously speaking to a lot of residents and having the staff look into that deeply, it is pleasing to at least see a start. And this document, as I said earlier tonight, is actually the biggest attachment I've had in eight years to anything on Council. So the amount of data and work that's gone into that is significant. But what we need to take on board is the fact that it's not perfect. And I think as elected representatives here tonight, we've heard that message. We've heard you loud and clear. Public consultation is certainly important in this chamber, and for our community who have been through eight floods, and as the Mayor for a lot of those floods, a very traumatising, dramatic impact on our community that has left people scarred forever.
And I want the people who are here tonight and also those listening to know and understand that we appreciate that it's not lost on us. We know and have seen with our own eyes the impact, although we certainly have not experienced the emotional trauma or the financial loss that you have experienced in terms of trying to rebuild your properties again. I think that the amendment on the board is correct, and I will be supporting it tonight. Were we adding the point four? It just hasn't been added.
So the point four will be added, which is wonderful. I think, yeah, just checking. I think that it's vital that the community can get together on this. As I said, one particular property, and I won't specify or identify it too much, where they lost everything, and it went into the bottom of their home as well, and just they had little kids, and it impacted their lives so significantly. I will never forget what that looked like. It looks like a war zone to walk through their yard and would have cost tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to fix. So we're hearing you. We're taking it on board. I welcome the amendment. I think it's the right way to go. And I look forward to hopefully, when that public meeting is held, that we are available to attend as well. Thank you.
Councillors, it should be on your screen now. It reads, A public meeting be held as part 4. A public meeting be held as soon as possible regarding the draft Redbank Creek Flood Study. Thanks, Councillor. Councillor [unclear].
Two points. One is Mrs Hayden made mention of the inadequacy of the community consultation, and the only reference to the community consultation appears on page 43 of the study, which doesn't say how many people were reached, within what catchment, the form of that. It says that a snapshot of the community questionnaire is presented in Appendix B. We weren't presented with the appendices to this report. As voluminous as this report is, and I'm not suggesting we should have been given additional printed material, but it would be useful that the appendices be made available when it contains relevant information like the nature or scale of the community consultation that was engaged in, considering that that was one of the concerns that was raised.
My last point is that I think we have a real obligation to get this right. I welcome Councillor Buckett's suggestion that we exhibit this for 60 days, but that really only still puts us until just the second week of January, when most of us aren't focused very much on anything. I don't know that there's any rush at all. In getting this done. I would be perfectly happy if residents were saying this isn't long enough to get our heads around it, is that we extend that out even further. I don't know whether we should just do that now or whether we should just wait and see when this public meeting can be scheduled. And I think that there can be no question of any additional development in the Redbank area, because there is, of course, additional development that's being mooted around the Peel Farm that represents some hundreds of extra lots, and it sits within the same catchment.
And I, after the presentation of this data, cannot be convinced that the development at Redbank has not had an effect on the runoff pattern of that land, and therefore it would be highly unwise to contemplate any further development at Redbank until we have this study and further work done to work out just how the hydrodynamic landscape has been changed. Thank you.
Thank you. Any other councillors? I just, excuse me, I just make a couple of comments. I chaired the floodplain committee. There was an invitation went out to all councillors, and many of you either attended or come online to view those meetings. The Redbank catchment community was all letterbox dropped. I think there was two and a half thousand or something like that. The staff might know the exact number, but from memory, I think it was about two and a half thousand. With the response in this document we've got before us tonight, there was eight responses, and the comment that was made by one of the speakers that the community felt Somewhat separated very much from Council is extremely disappointing.
The studies that were done on flooding in our city is extremely important. We did the same down at Lower Portland and at Webbs Creek and the like, and there was a good response down there, but it's slightly different. And there's a big difference, as Councillor Aczel indicated, between riverine flooding and stormwater flooding. And that's, you see it on TV every night, like Parramatta's flooded. Well, five minutes later it's gone, while it's still stormwater, it's not riverine flooding, and there's a massive difference. And so a public meeting will help to, and in the main, the speakers tonight were talking about storm flooding. That's why it rose so quick and it went down so quick. When you've got a river, it stays there.
So a public meeting will help to clarify that. There will be professional people there speaking on the matter and the like , and I think it's a good idea. This is not the only study that's out in relation to flooding in our city. We haven't asked for a public meeting in relation to that, but my guess is there's likely to be one. So is there any other councillors wishing to speak on the matter?
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'll write a reply. Thank you for the councillors contributing and for supporting the extended exhibition time. We've got to remember for these people that it's not just what happens when the actual flooding is occurring, but it's the cumulative impact, the erosion, the destabilising of the creek bank, the loss of their backyards, losses of structure, losses of their gardens that they may have tended for so long, and the changes that then occur on their properties that then makes them vulnerable for when the next big inundation comes. And I think that's a really important thing to recognise because they are being exposed to increased vulnerability. And this can also impact their capacity to sell their property or gives them an uncertainty of whether they would actually invest more money in building more things on their land.
In regards to the community consultation, I think we do recognise and understand the fatigue that people have felt from the cumulative natural disasters. I get the issues that some members of the community have with trust or mistrust of the council because they have often felt ignored or dismissed. That doesn't mean that that's what's really happened, but that can be a feeling people get when they're asked over and over to tell their story and they feel nothing changes. That makes me very sad, and I hope that by taking this path, we can better engage the people and really encourage them to come along to a public meeting with the opportunity to tell their individualised stories. And I add at this point that I think there really needs to be a focus on plain English, because as we've identified, there's a lot of technical jargon in those reports.
Also, the maps are quite busy and quite technical often as well. So just maybe some summarising, even though we would have experts to answer questions, it's just as important to have some very direct, plain information about both what we're seeking to achieve and what we have found out through the study to date. And then identifying after that what other factors need to be looked at and that can be included in this study. So in terms of the 60 days, I would think that it says minimum 60 days. Obviously, we'll have a shutdown over Christmas, and I would think, you know, as long as it's sort of 60 days from the public meeting or whatever, that will give people enough time to have more understanding and to actually submit their thoughts and their concerns to us.
Thank you, Mayor Sheather, Deputy Mayor McMahon, and Councillors for the opportunity to address the chamber. My name is Philip Bamford, a local businessman, father of five, living between Pitt Town and Cattai. I'm a roofing contractor. My office is in Silverwater, also half owner of a construction company operating out of South Windsor. I'd also like to declare at this moment I am also a member of the Hawkesbury Business Group. Yet I'm not here speaking on behalf of them. I'm here speaking on behalf that I'm a businessman in the area. I'm here this evening to support Councillor Dogramaci's motion to have Council form a new committee dedicated to promoting sustainable economic growth through collaboration between business, and key stakeholders and Council.
I personally think that's a fantastic proposal. Local business is working hand in glove with Council to expand the Hawkesbury. What springs to my mind's eye, when I mull that over, is prosperity, improved opportunities, a facelift to our community, new businesses, new ideas, and an LGA, if I dare to dream, the envy of all other councils.
I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to, maybe even the Silicon Valley of Australia, which is a big leap, a big stretch from where we are now. But why not dream? Every great endeavour starts with an idea. We just need to work hard, and the most important point is work together. The fact we are here all tonight in this chamber demonstrates the fact that we all care about the Hawkesbury and are willing to do something to help.
If I may refer you to the terms of reference for a moment, which I'm sure all councillors must have, under objectives: to identify and support opportunities for economic development across all business sectors, supporting the circular economy. Well, the circular economy was a new one on me, and I presume you've probably got that document as well, but it basically talks about recycling and using all material, which I think is a fantastic idea. Point two: to enhance the competitiveness and sustainability of micro, small and large businesses in the Hawkesbury region. Again, fantastic objective. To encourage innovation and entrepreneurship, particularly in emerging areas. Our opportunities are limitless.
Point four: to promote tourism and hospitality. As a roofing contractor, I get around the state quite a bit, and sometimes other states, and I look at areas like Barrell, the Hunter Valley, and I see their tourism and their vibrance, and Camden is another case in point. And I often look at downtown Windsor and I think, well, we've got a bit of ground to make up here, and I would hope With the right people working together, that we can create environments here that have the people from the city coming out and picking Hawkesbury as a destination to bring their families for farm stays or for shopping. Point five: to identify and advocate for policies, reforms to infrastructure developments. We need to get more development happening.
More development means more business, means more opportunity, means more commerce, means more money. And lastly, on the objectives, point six: to support collaboration between businesses and educational institutions to build a skilled local workforce. Well, imagine if we had a grand idea that we could have no unemployment. That's probably a bit unreal. It's never going to happen. But imagine if we took responsibility for our local and trained them and put them into employment because we had a booming economy and booming business. Now that's the Hawkesbury I want to be part of, and so will many others.
A hard road to hoe, but possible. Yes, with a lot of effort and determination, these objectives can be achieved and much more. We just need to start and keep the eyes on the mountain. No barrier, really, when it comes to supporting this motion. The only question is, are we up for it, or do we take the easy slow road to the status quo? I personally think it's a no-brainer. Thank you for your time.
Thank you, Mr Mayor. Thank you, Mr Bamford. I'm just wondering, the terms of reference and the objectives you're referring to, what document are they from?
I've got a document here in front of me, which is Hawkesbury Council content connect with the Business Committee draft terms of reference. So I was presuming that this is a document that you may have seen.
Thank you, Mr Mayor, and thank you, Mr Bamford. From your address, it's obvious that you're very passionate about this topic, and I was just wondering whether you have been able to read the draft council's draft economic development strategy that we had last year? No, I have not. I am extremely new to getting involved, I guess, in local politics, so I'm fresh. Well, I won't ask the next question. No, okay, I won't know the answer. How would this committee fit into that? But anyway, we'll leave it at that. Thank you.
Thanks, Mayor. Mr Bamford, I really enjoyed your presentation. I was around when the current Hawkesbury Hospital was planned and built, and the builders were staggered by the range of skills, materials, expertise that was available here locally to build that hospital. They had to go outside of the area for almost nothing. So the area has a huge amount of talent and has a huge potential, which I think if it's properly run by an organisation such as you're suggesting, could contribute greatly. The other big hole, I think, in the area is I don't think tourism is promoted here and encouraged and supported anywhere near as much as it should be. So again, something you mentioned, which I think has got a lot of merit and could bring a lot of benefits to the local community. Anyway,
Mayor, councillors, I'd like to support Eddie's motion that he's putting up. Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the formation of a Business Advisory Committee. This initiative represents a critical step towards fostering a sustainable and prosperous economic future for our community. By establishing a platform for collaboration between local business, council and key stakeholders, we create a foundation for innovation and growth. Currently, our council has committees dedicated to disaster management and heritage preservation, essential areas that protect our community and honour our past. But we also need a dedicated committee to address the essential role of business, as it is the backbone of our local economy and our future.
A Business Advisory Committee would fill this gap, promoting collaboration, supporting innovation, and providing direct resources to help our businesses thrive. This advisory committee could work to advance emerging sectors like technology, light manufacturing, eco-tourism, industries that can flourish in Hawkesbury's unique environment. It aims to support local businesses, eliminate waste, generate new energy sources, all while positioning our region as a beacon of sustainable practices. In addition to economic growth, the committee can promote programs that encourage our First Nations communities and veterans in business, creating inclusive spaces that highlight our 40,000 year of heritage and address community needs for local employment.
This is an opportunity for council and business leaders to unite, to meaningfully change support in projects that strengthen our economy and improve lives. I urge you all to support the initiative for a stronger, more vibrant Hawkesbury. I think this is a missing link in all of the policy documents that are produced by council, aren't connecting in with the actual business people. This committee is a way for that to happen and to grow that area of the Hawkesbury.
Councillor Dogramaci. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Mayor. To start with, this has got nothing to do with the Hawkesbury Business Group. It was only I discussed it with a couple of the members and naturally, being in business, they said that, you know, they would support me. And the idea came to me a few months ago when Councillor Wheeler initiated about women's cottage, the problem that we were going through. And you would remember that lady, the young lady, the mother, when she came in here almost crying. She was trembling. And I think it was the general manager, or manager of the women's cottage , when she came in support of her. If you may remember, I called her Mother Teresa. That was the initiation of this movement.
And I decided that something had to be done. We all know the financial situations of our council. We cannot ask for money. We couldn't even afford to give a few thousand dollars to the animal shelters for desexing cats and other things. We couldn't support, naturally , the women's cottage. So something had to be done. Now , you all know me that, you know, I am direct, and I rely on my experience in business—not a big business, but I have some qualities in certain areas of business. Just as I always admit, and I always say that not a single one of us, as a matter of fact, combined every single one of the councillors, downstairs, upstairs staff, we could not even come close to the experience and the talent of Councillor Zamprono when it comes to IT and that sort of thing.
Again, not a single one of us, what I believe that could come close to certain talents of certain councillors, for example, Councillor Djuric, or any others. Now, my understanding is that a similar kind of initiative has been—
One of the councillors, Councillor McMahon apparently has put some time in some kind of small business initiatives or whatever. I don't know what happened. All I say is that my experience in business, and while I'm travelling overseas, I don't just go to look around for business for my own business. I also visit certain areas of expertise, and the last couple of years, two and a half years ago, when I was in Denmark. I couldn't believe what I have seen, and their recycling waste and pollution industry, and generating huge amount of renewable energy, electricity. As a matter of fact, I have witnessed some rubbish coming from Scandinavian countries. As far as to Iceland, although, you know, they have, as you know, that underground rivers and the hot springs, incredible amount of energies, they were still sending their waste to Denmark for processing.
So what I'm saying is, hopefully , if we could form some kind of a committee, I'm more than happy to support any way I can. I don't want any money from council or from anybody else. I'll use my own resources. I will fund the interstate and overseas trips. I will meet people around interstate and overseas. I can show you something that what we have to offer to the gallery and to the council. This is only 25 years ago. This cruise liner, you know, used to come to as far as to Kattai , I think. This is what I believe. We could have this sort of things as well. So instead of New South Wales government advertising for destination Sydney, we could work and we could hardly push for destination Hawkesbury.
We could do that. We could, with the experience of First Nations people, we could, anything possible. They could have, we could arrange some kind of a tracking, people that, you know, they've never seen anything like that. I have spoken with people, mentioned them about manshed. They don't know what that is, and we excel in that area when it comes to manshed, you know, what they do. We could take these, we could take the tourists to certain areas. We could take them to see how it is done. Our First Nations people, they could benefit from them selling their didgeridoos , their boomerangs directly instead of shipping them to Sydney, so the middle people, you know, could make thousands of dollars.
We could encourage business. We could do whatever is necessary. And this gem, Hawkesbury has got everything that, you know, we could benefit financially and otherwise. But my number one priority in the shortest term, to get as much money as possible and get this women's cottage project to go ahead. Thanks
I value out of that contribution is your passion to do something. What I didn't get out of your five minutes was really anything to do with your motion about how you wanted to proceed about forming the new committee or the topic of the fact that it's based on supporting and collaborating with local businesses. It's not a— I'm not being detrimental to that. I'm just saying, giving you credit for your passion. But what I'd like to do is actually talk about your motion and the wording in your motion. What I need to make clear to everybody as well is this is obviously a very baby step because, as the note by management clearly indicates, we do need to put— the council needs to draft a constitution for such a committee, and as the elected body, we would need to consider what that constitution looks like, how that committee would operate, how many members of the public are on that committee, whether that is they are attending that committee by an expression of interest process, which we then vote on, obviously, which happens in confidential, and how many councillors would be on such a committee.
I do believe we do need to have a stronger partnership with our business sector. We need to hear from them from a business point of view about what their ideas are, how they see our region growing. But the reality is, given that we are a government body with ratepayers' money to spend, we have to ensure that if we're spending any ratepayers' money, it is done in a very diligent way. I can pretty much say this committee will not be engaging in any interstate or overseas trips at the expense of the ratepayer. That's not how this council works. But what we do value will be the contribution from small business people in terms of how they can work with council. So I will support it, Councillor Dogramaci, if you had not ascertained that from my speech yet.
I do just want to say that perhaps sticking to the acute notice of motion that you've put forward when you speak would probably be a good start. But there are a lot of hurdles yet to pass in terms of drafting the constitution, what that needs to look like. I was a little concerned to hear, and I would like some clarification on whether the Hawkesbury Business Group thought they had capacity to draft council's terms of reference for such a committee. That was quite alarming to me, and that absolutely cannot happen. No group can have any single control over Hawkesbury City Council. We are a government body and the custodians for public funds. That's not how it works. But as I said, I will support it.
I'd like to see it come back again with the draft constitution and then see how the committee may operate from there. Thank you.
Councillor Dogramaci. Thank you, Mr Mayor. I thank Councillor Dogramaci for his motion. I'd like to seek a point of clarification and then continue with my remarks. It doesn't escape me that the resolution as formed does not ask this chamber to form that committee. It only asks us to consider forming the committee. Is it, Councillor Dogramaci's intent for this motion to have the chamber resolved to form the committee, or merely to consider it?
I'll take that answer. The wording as we receive it at the moment says that Council consider the formation of a new committee. So I'll structure my remarks around that. It's not inviting us to form the committee. If we were to vote in favour of this resolution with this wording, we are not forming the committee. We're considering forming the committee. In which case, the point that I was going to make is that as good an idea as this is, one of the pieces of business that I believed this chamber would have to consider in this term is the reconstitution of a variety of committees, because the community were fairly clear to us during the election period that one of the things that they thought of as disappointing in the previous term was the diminution or dissolution of many of Council's previous committees.
The people who held the strong view that some of those committees were not fit for purpose and did nothing for us and simply were bureaucratic boondoggles are no longer in the chamber. And it's free for this chamber to form its own view about how committees form part of the web. of inclusion with the community, to bring people in, to draw on their subject matter expertise, to give people and organisations a sense of agency in council's decision-making. We came to within a breath of losing council's heritage committee, and I use this often as my example. People of national and even international renown, who have a passion for the heritage of this area, and who are prepared to give of their time freely.
And the point I make is that if we had to pay those people for their time, we could not afford it. And yet we have this wonderful heritage committee that are prepared to give of that wisdom to help us look after our heritage, and we have a lot of that. And in the same way, there were a variety of committees that we simply dispensed with, and I think people felt that whatever structure was proposed to replace those committees didn't do the job. I referred to it at the time as an experiment, and that we should be big enough to admit,
After a period of time, to say whether that experiment had succeeded or not. I'm prepared to declare that experiment an abject failure. Those replacement committees or bodies just died on the vine. And we had a bunch of people who were in those previous committees who felt like the council didn't care about either their expertise or their passion in a variety of areas, whether it was disability access and inclusion, whether it had to do with civics, whether it had to do with any of those other committees that went away. So I would like to frame Councillor Dogramaci's request for us to consider the creation of a new committee. In that larger picture of what committees we might want to bring back.
And I think we can support this motion tonight. It doesn't call for us to form the committee, but it does contribute to the debate that we will probably have at a community strategic partnership weekend very soon to look at this and other committees and to try and come up with a more coherent strategy for other committees to be brought back. Thank you. Councillor Scott-Lash.
Improve our committee structure and function. And I don't think it was an abject failure. I think people boycotted our ideas and they didn't work because people didn't really understand what we were trying to do. What we were trying to do back then is make the decision-making process of Council accessible to more people in the community. Now, because , and for this reason, I wouldn't agree to supporting a new committee with such broad terms as economic development, because it straddles so many different things in the community, which we've heard of. We've heard of waste management, new technologies, the circular economy, we've heard about tourism, et cetera. There's a lot of things going on when you talk about economic development.
I would rather, and I'm not saying that the ideas that have been put forward are wrong, I absolutely agree we have to have better partnerships with our business community. We've got to, where we can as a Council, stimulate that activity. We have an economic development strategy, hopefully that's going to come back and is better than the draft that we considered last year, or early this year . And I would hope we waited for that to pick out ideas that we can form working groups. The reason I think working groups are a whole lot better idea than committees is that you form a question or an idea that has tighter boundaries, and you can get people that have expertise in the community to be able to come and talk to that.
And it's not just a talk fest about, hey, let's, you know, let's do sort of everything. And I think that's the way we should look at how we harness partnerships with people. Be more direct, let more people get involved with making those decisions. It's when you form a committee, it can quite easily get into a situation where you don't actually get anything done because there's no structure to it. Admittedly, if we have very tight terms of reference, that might not occur. But I think if we wait for our economic development strategy to come out, get a feeling for where we think the ideas are in the community, and then form working groups that aren't restricted by, let's face it, community members that will be politically appointed because we're all going to appoint those people on those committees.
There might be four of them, there might be five people within our very big community that get appointed to that committee. I think we have to be innovative in the way we engage with our community. Be, you know, it's not scary. It's not an abject failure. We have to get the most out of our community and what they want to offer. I don't see that as a failure. I think working groups, I think we proved that working groups have worked because of the arts, I can't remember what it's called, enhancing the arts working group. Lots of people got involved with that. It had a question to answer and it had input and it had a beginning and an end. And whilst I appreciate what Councillors and Progno has said about this, about the actual recommendation motion in the business paper, I still will vote against it just on that principle that I think we could, I think we can do better.
And I think we have to be innovative in the way that we look at engaging our community. Thank you.
It's a little bit like Groundhog Day. I think that we've had this sort of thing come up so often, and it's not for a moment that I don't support. In fact, it was only seven years ago on Sunday I saw a memory, a social media memory of when we tried to bring together the businesses of this area up at the gallery. We had a wonderful get-together by inviting all the businesses from our manufacturing, agricultural and commercial sectors, and we spoke about the Hawkesbury past, present and future and how we could better engage business. But unfortunately that initiative fell apart in 2018 and it wasn't continued. But it had been working well. And then, as Councillor Zamprogno alluded to, we did lose our advisory committees.
But in saying around the advisory committees, there's a difference with the committees which are advisory, where we have a legislative and a regulatory role around them. So flood committee, waste management committee , things like that, I believe we can have advisory committees because there is a structure into what we have to achieve. When it comes to something as broad scale as business. I just think I cannot see how we could capture that in a committee without doing a lot more work around it. I just think that we need to progress it forward in a positive way. It's a good idea, but perhaps, as Councillor Kotlash just alluded to, what we did with Enhancing the Arts when we set up the working group for that, we invited in at each meeting, and we held the meetings regularly, and we brought in different people from the different sectors of the arts to get their feedback about the role Council could have in engaging with them and around our facilities, for example, and our initiatives on that regard.
Another alternative could be a quarterly forum where the businesses can engage with Council on a level that's in a more forum style, because I think limiting it down to a committee that... I can't really see what the objective of the committee would be. The terms of reference that were read out were fine for a business group, but we're not a business group. We've got to keep all stakeholders involved, and we've got to balance what we're doing with the needs and expectations of the rest of the community . Tourism, of course, should be a standalone tourism committee. It always should have been, and it was derailed a long time ago, and that was a problem that we really have dropped the ball, despite many efforts to have that resumed and to keep going.
But to progress this forward, we really need to define the participants, who would be involved in this, the objectives, the focus areas. If it's a business committee, business is huge. You've got everything from our major manufacturers down to people who have a home occupation. So who is excluded, who is included, and what really is the goal? I understand the interaction between tourism and the business sector. I understand what Councillor Dogramaci is saying, that we can foster our relationship with the business community to assist us in projects that we may be able to do and to build partnerships. But I'm just not sure that a committee , because I can't see how it would be an advisory committee, because we ourselves don't have a role where we have to be doing something with business.
So I'm a little perplexed, and I would wonder if Councillor Dogramaci would be open to an amendment that may be to actually take this to a workshop to discuss all what the other councillors have just brought up, and we can nut it out to reach the goal that you're achieving for. And that was a lot of stuff in Councillor Dogramaci's speech. I thought he'd wandered off into the woke wilderness there for a little while . But I think we want to achieve it. I think we all want to achieve it. But getting there is the problem. So I think it is a good start. Would you be open to an amendment to defer to a workshop?
In that case, Mr Mayor, I will move an amendment to defer it to a workshop to investigate the options around progressing an economic development committee or, yeah , yeah, to investigate the options to foster our relationship with the business community going forward, broad, and then we can define it.
A matter of fact, I could show it to you in here. We could discuss this in a workshop if Councillors agree not to disagree for the sake of it. I could show it in here. Yeah.
The staff's wording it up to go up on the board. Was there anyone else that wanted to speak on the matter, why that's happening? Yes. Councillor Wheeler. Sorry, Councillor Wheeler. If you can hang tight for a second. Councillor Wheeler. Thank you, Mr Mayor. Wait. Councillor Riddens had a light on it, I apologise. Yes
I'd just like to draw our attention to the note from management that we are expecting the strategy to come back in 2025, and I would be happy if it included tourism. Not because I'm a former travel consultant, but I think it would be great for our area. Yeah
Thanks, Mr Mayor. I think Councillor Riddens' comments have actually highlighted one of the real issues here, and that this is, and this has, it's been mentioned before, this is such a large area, you know, and I think we've thrown all the woke word bingo words at it that we possibly can this evening. But I think we, I agree with Councillor Zamprono in that I'm not entirely convinced that we should be concentrating on this one area, and it's feeling increasingly ad hoc. I think pulling it back to a workshop discussion does have some potential to do that, but I do think we need to revisit the topic of advisory committees and working groups or whatever, however we want to set this up, because we do have this wealth of information in the community around a whole range of issues, and we need a system of drawing on that that is open, transparent, and far less ad hoc than this.
I'm pleased that Councillor McMahon has raised the concerns that I had around the terms of reference. The terms of reference are to be determined by the Council. Not by an external group, however well-meaning. And I don't say that to insult the people who came up with it. This is part of our need for transparency and
Councillors shouldn't be directing the staff as to how many hours of work they will be putting up for our pet projects. That's up to the general manager and the directors to determine. I have to say I'm a bit concerned by the use of domestic violence to justify what is effectively an economic push. That sits very ill with me. And similarly, the talk of a whole lot of other things, including the use of First Nations people without them in the room . Let's not go there. I would like to see us look at our committee structure and how we access this information in a broader way, perhaps looking at some other councils. I note City of Sydney, for example, has two committees that sit across the economic development space.
They have an innovation, business and economy committee, and they have a cultural, creative and nightlife committee. And I think they're potentially areas that we could look at. Wollondilly has five strategic reference groups that are focused on strategic themes out of their CSP: people, environment, place and landscape, economy and performance. And I think perhaps following our CSP weekend, we can look at how we can then. Build on what we decide as elected representatives will be our areas, our themes of focus, and how we then draw the community into that, rather than just picking one thing and running with it when we've got a whole lot of other things. Otherwise we're going to end up with this discussion about an economic committee; we'll have another one about an environment committee; we'll have another one about waste.
We're back to where we were, with a whole lot of committees that function in isolation and may not straddle all the themes that we decide as a council will be our focus for the next four years. Thanks.
Councillor. Yeah, thanks, mate. Thanks for Councillor Dogramaci putting the motion forward. Great debate, I think, and we've taken points from all the councillors who have spoken. I concur with Councillor, Deputy Mayor, about we've got to have governance on this anyway. But the macro point of view is to help industry and other parts of our economy within the area . I know there are issues in the area. I mean, especially when it comes to certain manufacturing plants, which are very close to residential areas for whatever reason, and they're trying to get more of a 24-hour operation, five days a week, and they're restricted by doing so. But you don't want to lose these employment opportunities from the local government area anyway.
But to tap into those who have experience and experience in this chamber and out in the community , I think it had a lot of merit, although there was a little bit soft in some areas, but that's okay, but we've got through it. But I thank you for putting up the amendment, Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Thank you, and I'll be supporting that motion, and we'll take it to the workshop and see if we can knock it out and get some positives out of it. Thank you, Mr Mayor.
Thank you. Just to clarify, Councillor Ogramachi, your motion now sits that the matter be deferred to a Council workshop to investigate the options around fostering relationships with the business community.
I'd like to say a couple of words, if I may. Are you happy with that? Yeah, I'm happy. I said that. Yes, I'm happy. Okay, and that was seconded by Councillor Creed. Okay, you'll have right of reply, Councillor Ogramachi. Is there any other councillor that wants to? Councillor Ogramachi
Thank you. First of all, thank you, Mr Mayor. Deputy Mayor, I can assure you that there will be absolutely no pressure or any kind of advice from the Hawkesbury Business Council. And I am doing this for one and only one reason. I'm sure that you would remember, all I wanted when, all I wanted, some kind of a credit — hopefully, you know, this will go through, what I'm proposing — all I want is some kind of a bench in a park, which I mentioned many times. A bench. It says, Eddie Ogramachi wants sat in here. I don't want anything else. That I mentioned that before. Coming to Councillor Zomproni — Councillor, just
Okay. When Councillor Zomproni mentioned about the previous committees, this one or any other ones failing or not doing it, I, as a salesperson, I always refer to logic, and if there is no logic, there is no persuasion. If someone is trying to, a swimmer trying to swim across the English Channel, and if he drowns, it doesn't mean that, you know, any other swimmer is not going to, you know, take the challenge. So maybe, you know, those committee members, or, you know, the ones that, you know, who are running, they weren't good swimmers. And I hope I am going to be one. And hopefully when time comes to discuss this one, I will explain and I will add a few other details. The other councillors or the failed committee members, the swimmers failed. Hopefully it will go through. Thank you. Thank you. Thank
Councillor Sembrogno, Wheeler, Mary-Lynne Buckett, Aczel, Djuric, McMahon, Creed, Weigel and Regan, and Dogramaci, Sheather. And against the motion? Councillor?
RESOLVED on the motion of Councillor Dogramaci, seconded by Councillor Creed.
That Council defer consideration of this matter to a Councillor Workshop to investigate options around fostering relationships with the business community.
Councillors, we now move for the adoption of items not identified for discussion or decision, the can be burred and block. They are items 10.4.2, 10.4.3 and 11.1.1.
It's unanimous. It's Councillor Zamprogno, Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Aczel, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Creed, Veigel, Reardon, Dogramaci and Sheather. Sorry, Mr Mayor, Councillor Veigel was out of the room when we voted.
Mr Mayor, could I move an amendment that we defer this item to further discussion and bring it back in the second November meeting, please? The reason that I’m doing so is— sorry, I’ll wait. I’ll second it,
The reason that I’m moving the deferment is that councillors were not provided with the individual score sheets prior to the briefing. I think there are concerns around— I certainly have concerns around the scoring of a couple of items, and I would rather have that discussion now we’re in possession of those score sheets before we make a final determination.
Well, we have a couple of events that have applied for sponsorship that we won't be able to promote because of the date when they're occurring. Could you tell us which ones they are, sorry? Yes , Light Up Windsor, there's two things there. The Hanna Park carols are on the 21st of the 12th, so that's fine.
Could I amend that the sponsorship for Hanna Park carols, Light Up Windsor, and the Richmond Rotary Christmas carols, and the Kurrajong Community Carols and Family Fun proceed with further discussion prior to the November meeting.
I'll speak to the amendment, Mr Mayor, if you speak. Okay. I'll just speak briefly to the amendment, Mr Mayor. And it was a bit difficult to have not had seen the individual assessments until just when the business paper came out, particularly as we've had a fairly hectic schedule just lately. And I think that gave rise to some concerns about some of the criteria. Not so much what the criteria is, but how it's responded to. And something I'm interested in exploring is how we verify the authenticity of what is being said, you know, around things sort of regarding the level of promotion. And there is a real issue around this section on First Nations because people have ticked they're having a welcome to country, an acknowledgement of country as well, and they're involving First Nations groups.
And there's several groups have scored higher than Murawina Aboriginal Association on that because they would know that if you're having a welcome to country, you're not having an acknowledgement to country as well. Chances are. But, yes, so you're not getting an extra points on that. I think that before we've reviewed the criteria, and the criteria in itself, when you look at it, there's nothing wrong with that in the sense that until we see something applied to it and questions arise because of what's in there, then I think that that is something that we can explore by looking at it, just going through it and getting some clarity around, you know, some of the very high scoring things and also some of the low scoring things where people have missed out, just to clarify how would we know?
I mean, people can fill in forms. Are there any checks on any of this? And just, I think, to get a bit of a clearer picture around just exactly how it's being assessed. So I'm happy for it to come back in November and happy for those various Christmas-related ones to proceed. There are a couple that I think a few councillors may have some more questions about that we can maybe discuss a bit further before it comes back. Thank you.
Councillor Djuric. Thank you, Mr Mayor. I just wanted to briefly mention that I know some groups are waiting on acknowledgement of whether they're getting funding or not, so they can plan events going forward. So I just want to be mindful that this, while it might be necessary to move to consider other facts, that it's also impacting groups as well. Thank you.
Laurie Mifsud(staff - Director Corporate Services)
Thanks, Mr Mayor. Look, just with the amendment, we will probably have to pick up the other parts in the recommendation about approval of those applications to make sure that we cover off in the execution of the agreements and so on. So we're just picking up those words to make sure that we've got that completely in there.
Light Up Windsor . Yeah , I'll get you to clarify. I just get the general manager to clarify exactly what's on the screen. Thank you through you, Mr. Mayor. So the proposed amendment on the board sees the approval of the Hanna Park Carols, Light Up Windsor, the Richmond Rotary Christmas Carols and the Kurrajong Community Carols and Family Fun, and then, and Light Up Windsor. That's there. And then some amendments to the subsequent, if you could just scroll up, Minute takers, point two allows for the execution of Council's standard sponsorship agreement for those events, that we will advise those successful organisations that the approved amount is for inclusive of in-kind support, and that the Council defer consideration of the remaining items to the meeting of the 26th of November.
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'm speaking against the amendment. Whilst I agree that we could review the criteria that has been used for assessing these events, I think it is really highly inappropriate to— To judge some events using the criteria and then cross out other events and revisit them.
I think that the process should be complete. We've completed this process. We have an evaluation. It's not a perfect science. There's, you know, I guess it's a bit subjective to an extent. But I'm happy to revisit a review of the criteria after the fact. I'm not happy with splitting applications in half or splitting applications. I don't think that's appropriate at all. I think we need to accept this assessment and move on and then revisit how we do our next round. Doing it midstream is very problematic in my book. Thank you.
Mr Mayor. I actually agree with the remarks made by Councillor Kotlash, so I thank you for making those remarks publicly and giving me some further food for thought. I remember when we voted on the matrix and the criteria, and that was the model we chose to assess these applications, and that's the model that we have. I really do agree with what you said. We can't just say, I don't agree with the process, but I'm going to pick and choose three or four or five right now because they're time sensitive with Christmas. How is that good decision making? We are here to be in a role of governance, and we're going to say, oh, because yours is time sensitive, you can have a look, you can go through on the current criteria, but the others, let's go to a briefing and discuss your worthiness. That's actually really poor decision making, and I won't be supporting the amendment at all. Thank you.
The events that have been put forward were assessed as being able to be funded. What I'm concerned about mostly is the events that have not met the criteria for funding.
One in particular, and I won't name it, the event that I think has been so cautious in their filling out of the application form that they've done themselves out of funding. We can't ascertain that. We discussed this in a briefing last week. We didn't have the criteria in front of us. We were flying blind, frankly. Now that's not good governance either. That's just us being told by the staff that they thought that they added up the numbers and made that decision. This is public money. We are the final arbiters of how that public money is spent. Some of the use of the criteria in those forms is incorrect. Councillor Lyons-Buckett has talked about one of the examples. You can't get five points.
You shouldn't be able to get five points from having a welcome and an acknowledgement. That isn't how it works. You either have a First Nations person do a welcome, or you have a non-First Nations person, a person who is not Darug or Darkinjung. Do an acknowledgement. You can't get two bites at that cherry, and yet we have applications that have. We've got other applications that clearly meet other parts of the criteria, but have not got any points for those criteria because they've been so cautious in how they've filled in the form that they've done themselves out of it. We need to be able to discuss this calmly
And I really resent being told that that is inappropriate. That's our job, to properly allocate public money. I'm not saying we throw the criteria out and we just pick a favourite. I haven't said that at any point, but I have said that we need to have this criteria before we can make a discussion. That's all I'm asking for.
Councillor Creed. Thanks, Mr Mayor. I'm going to be a bridge , and hopefully people will accept this idea. I was going to ask the mover of the motion if we do the original motion, but then we actually have another point that we go to a briefing session to discuss what Councillor Wheeler and Councillor Lyons-Buckett have raised. That way we're not affecting this round of sponsorship, but we can still go and actually discuss this properly. And if we need to change it, we can discuss it at a briefing session later, or, sorry, a councillor workshop, whatever you call them nowadays. I'm just trying to find some middle ground here.
Could we have clarification on whether the scoring of the welcome to country and acknowledgement of country makes a difference to the outcome of the scoring system? Is that too much of an ask?
Through you, Mr Mayor. Yes, I can. I'll have to clarify that the event that you're referring to is the Asian Model Festival. Is that the one you're making reference to? No, there's more than
That. Pardon ? And this is exactly what I don't want to do, is have this singling out of individual events and the businesses involved on the floor of the chamber, where we talk about whether people have done the right thing or not. And I'm assuming that if people have filled in the form incorrectly, that they've done it in an honest, as a matter of honest error. But that's our job to pick up . So I don't want this to be a blame game. I want this to be a means of us moving away to properly consider not anything else.
Well, it's difficult to clarify if I can't specifically refer to an event, but there has been discussion about whether there would be— Whether it would make a difference if we selected a welcome to country or an acknowledgement of country. The welcome to country is valued at three points and the acknowledgement of country is valued at two. If we took away the two, because let's say we would have one or the other, that would... it may change an event and their sponsorship, but it's hard to know without knowing which specific event. So it would change it by possibly two points. Thank you.
Mr Mayor, could I move a procedural motion, please, that we defer this item until we're in confidential and move into committee of the whole in confidential to work this out and come up with an amendment motion at that point.
I'm talking about tonight, but I think that, I think we should do it in committee of the whole so we can have the discussion and that we should do it in confidential because it's not fair. We are suppressed in what we can say and we don't want to say things that...
The point of— sorry, through you, Mr Mayor, I just made to the Mayor is that we don't have grounds under the Local Government Act to move this item into confidential session.
I didn't quite understand why you can't have a welcome to country and an acknowledgement of country at an event, because that happens. I go to lots of events that have welcomes to country by First Nations people and local elders, and also have acknowledgements of country from various people. I don't understand why this is an either/or. I'm just a bit— I can't find the place in the document. Can I have clarification on that, please?
I'm sure I can clarify it. If you watch football, that's exactly what happens. Any dignitary that addresses an audience after welcome to country is addressed that way
And Council defers the rest of the items to the 26th of November. That's the amendment. If there's no further discussion, I'll put the amendment, which is Councillor Wheeler, seconded by Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Those in favour of the amendment?
Councillor McLeod, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Creed, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Reardon , Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Sheather. I declare the amendment lost. I put the motion, which is in the business paper.
Thank you. Mr Mayor, I do support many of these events that are to occur, but I have real problems, as were raised by Councillor Wheeler, and an attempt to have it deferred. I'm extremely concerned that we have no mechanism for accounting for what people say they are going to do. We have nothing to measure that by. We've got events here that say they have state promotion, they have this promotion. There's no, what are we doing to see that that is the case? There is no evidence, and if people are basing it on what they did last time for some events, then that's not necessarily the truth of the matter. And I think that as money is tight and people are missing out, we really need to be taking more care.
We did see the criteria. I know we did see it when it was a raw framework, but now we've got information in it. And just looking at some of the events and not really understanding some of them, and I do refer to the Asian model event, I really don't understand what it is and why Council would be supporting it. There's just some things in here that I have an issue with the appropriateness of how they've been put forward. And we did try and raise this the other night in the briefing, and it was all too— we've had a massive business paper, we've had a lot to read, and there's a lot more understanding to be garnered from that. But I do hope, now we've lost the opportunity to look at it again, I suspect that there'll be a notice of motion come that we do then take it to a briefing, so we'll come back in two weeks, we'll do it again, and hope that we can take it to a briefing, that we can come up with perhaps some criteria around evaluating and ascertaining if the information that is being used in the matrix is in fact backed by any evidence whatsoever, particularly around management of waste.
And it wasn't just around the First Nations. There's criteria here that people have, you know, got high scores for, and I would really like to know how we are going to ascertain if ever that is the truth of the matter. And if it isn't, if we don't check any of that, then I would be really concerned around the transparency and the accountability of us giving money to events where we cannot ascertain the truth of what is being provided to us.
Thanks, Councillor. Councillor Creed. Thanks, Mr Mayor. Given what Councillor Lyons-Buckett has just stated, that the likelihood this will come to a notice of motion that we then go to a councillor workshop, can I again ask if the mover of the motion will attach another point that Council go to a councillor workshop to discuss the criteria
Of the events and how we determine what people say in their application forms are correct and what Council does to investigate that, something like that. Councillor Buckman. Councillor Scott-Lash, you second it Just saves time, that's all. Yeah.
Just a quick question on that, if I may, Mr Mayor. How often do we review our event sponsorship criteria? I know we've done it a couple of times in the last three years
Mr Mayor. The program has been running since 2018, and we have two rounds of event sponsorship every year, and each time it has come back, we have reviewed it and updated the criteria. Okay, thanks. Thanks. I thought that was.
The questions that were asked here, I don't know if they were asked to the staff because I haven't asked the staff whether they've been asked these questions. But I know, since I've been here, the discussion that we've had in relation to this and other items, that what happens behind the scenes, excuse me, that we never get to talk about or see, the staff... Certainly go to long lengths for information that's provided to us. So to be told that in a briefing or whatever, so it's made clear to us, I think is a good idea. Or indeed, if it's a failing, the staff, I'm sure, would have taken it on board. So in saying that, is there any further discussion?
| 8 | Kurrajong Community Carols & Family Fun | Kurrajong Baptist Church | $2,000 |
| 9 | Light Up Windsor | Windsor Uniting Church | $500 |
| | Commercial Applications | | |
| 10 | Hawkesbury Show * | Hawkesbury District Agricultural Association | $10,000 |
| 11 | Convict 100 Mountain Bike Marathon | Max Adventure Pty Ltd | $3,500 |
| 12 | Asia Model Festival - Asian Fashion Festival | Regal Star Productions | $3,500 |
| 13 | St Albans Village Market | St Albans Village Market | $3,500 |
2. Approve the execution of Council's standard Sponsorship Agreement for the applications numbered 1 to 13 as identified in Table 1 and Attachment 1 of this report.
3. Advise applicant number 1 as identified in Table 1 and Attachment 1 of this report that their application for special event sponsorship was not successful in accordance with the Event Sponsorship Assessment Criteria Matrix.
ORDINARY MEETING
Meeting Date: 12 November 2024
ORDINARY MEETING
Meeting Date: 12 November 2024
4. Advise successful organisations that the approved amount is inclusive of in-kind support from Council for the holding of the event, exclusive of marketing support and promotion through Council's social media channels.
5. Advise applicants numbered 14 and15 as identified in Table 1 and Attachment 1 of this report that their applications were not successful in accordance with the Event Sponsorship Assessment Criteria Matrix.
6. Refer the Event Sponsorship Program selection criteria and grant acquittal process to a Councillor Workshop for review.
I'll just briefly say, I was really, really happy to read this item in the business paper. Full credit to the staff. This is such a good initiative. It's cheap, it's effective, it gets our staff out into the community. There's so much going for it. I just, it was just so, so lovely to read it and to have this new initiative. And that's about it. That's all I'll say. I hope we can have many more, and it's a wonderful way of connecting with the community. As we've heard tonight, some of the community don't feel like they have the opportunity to connect for lots and lots of reasons. And I think this is just such a lovely initiative. Well done, and I really look forward to hearing about how many people get involved in the next round. Thanks.
Well said, Councillor. Councillor Veigel. Yeah, I too think it's a cracker. As Councillor Sombrano said in the briefing the other night, it's a no-brainer to move. Well done, staff. Keep it up. Thank you.
Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Thank you, Mr Mayor. I agree. I think it's good that we're increasing engagement through something like this. The only area I couldn't really see anything that was specifically directed to was anything specifically targeted to youth. And I don't know if that's deliberately being kept separate, but last week Councillors Ambrogno, Councillor Wheeler and I attended the Youth Summit, and it was overwhelming how strong the— Youth wanted to be able to tell Council what they felt their needs and expectations were. It was a really strong, it was a strong level of, it was amazing how insightful they were and the things that they were saying to us that were really relevant to the decisions we're making in here and to the services that we deliver.
So I'm not critical of this at all, but I'm just hoping that if there are any, I know that we probably go to Youth Week, perhaps at Youth Week there could be a specifically sort of similar piloty thing done there, and another couple of places where young people are, because we're making these decisions for their future and so we really need to be hearing what they've got to say.
Councillor Wheeler. Thanks, Mr Mayor. I too want to congratulate the staff. I think this is a really, really good initiative. Frankly, if you'd asked me for twice the amount of money, I would have clearly given it. Probably keep that in mind for next year.
It's a means of hearing from the community who tell us all the time that we don't engage, they don't know what we do with our money, they don't really know what Council does, and it moves us away from that quite toxic back and forth on social media that just goes into a negative spiral where everyone eggs each other on about how many rubbish collections they don't have, for example. It's a different means of engagement besides social media, and actually that's one of the things that the young people said to us last week was that they're not on, they were very clear that they're not on social media anymore, that actually social media is for old people, was what they said to us, which was not necessarily cheerful, but is true.
I think this is a courageous move for staff. We saw the infrastructure staff do something similar at, and a lot of other staff do something similar at Hawkesbury Fest, and I think any time— It's easier if you're going out and giving people something like a free tree, you know. But when you're going out and just opening yourself up for the community to tell you exactly what they think, or to ask you a question that you either have to take on notice or answer off the cuff, I think it's a brave move by our staff, and I think we really need to commend them for their willingness to do that. It's a genuine commitment to transparency and engagement. I think you picked some really good locations. Wilberforce Shops, for example, is always packed on a Saturday morning.
Wilberforce Shops is always packed, I think is the simple sentence, but Saturday morning is particularly busy. Sporting venues like Woodlands Oval or something on a Saturday, I think you might get a different demographic, you know, young families with kids, maybe the netball courts, somewhere where teenagers are hanging out might be useful places to look at as well. Thanks.
Can I join in the me too comments? Which I think we're looking at this, we're all supporting it, and we should just vote. But I want to have my opportunity to say that I think that this branding for Hawkesbury City Council is just wonderful. And in light of so many natural disasters and a pandemic, and Councillor Wheeler hit the nail on the head when she said stay off social media if you want to get a positive response about Hawkesbury City Council. We need to be doing this so that our brand is in people's faces, so that even if they don't stop and engage with our staff, they see Hawkesbury City Council, the words there, and even if it's that one second glance, they're seeing that council is out and about in the community.
And it's also a good reminder for the community as well, though, that it's not just the 12 of us who are elected. There is three or 400-odd staff behind us who make the council work and function, and I think that those staff need to be celebrated as well and have that opportunity to engage with the public because they have a lot more day-to-day knowledge about their specific roles and what they do in the organisation than we do. And I just think it's wonderful. I probably would have offered more money as well, so because I just think the positivity...
The positivity that comes from this kind of engagement, the branding of our council, we need to also be a champion of our staff. And I think people know from my time as mayor I was certainly wanting to do that. So I commend everybody on this initiative, and I would like to see it become a regular annual expense as part of our budget because it is that important. Thank you.
Not necessary, thank you. Thank you. Well, I could go on. Item 10.2.2, those in favour? It's unanimous. Councillor Zamprogno, Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Aczel, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Creed, Veigel, Reegel, Reardon
Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'll move the recommendation in the business paper, that recommendation being that the draft policy on fireworks be put out for public exhibition, which is coming up from a notice of motion I moved last year around developing this policy. The issue when it arose showed a gap in Council's response to conflict around fireworks issues in certain locations and situations. When this occurred almost a year ago, the conditions were hot and dry, and in a location where only a couple of years earlier the locals had suffered the Black Summer bushfires, of course, and there was fear and frustration around the proposed fireworks. The animal owners, specifically horse owners, had concerns about the noise in particular, but light intrusion into neighbouring Blue Mountains World Heritage Area National Park and the impact on wildlife, the risk of fire, and fear of triggered reactions from a proposed fireworks display had caused a high level of angst amongst stakeholders, and we were faced with a situation where we were being called upon to do something about it, and we didn't have an existing framework at that point to assist us with that.
Obviously, a matter like this has alternative opinions, and the best way to progress forward to ensure that all the opinions can be gathered and considered is by placing this draft policy on display to receive the comments from various stakeholders around it. There are some people who would see no issue about it and consider this as an overreach in a policy, but there's others who would expect that we have a role in representing community concerns in specific situations. So, even though we're not the authority that issues the permits, given that SafeWork has that role, the role that Council can play is to ensure that locally specific factors are considered. I don't know that this policy is perfect.
I'll be interested if members of the public or various businesses that may use fireworks, if they have any specific issues around any of it. But that is what we've got to hear back from. It's really good to hear from people on all sides about the capacity of it as a policy to ensure that fireworks are a properly controlled activity if they take place. Some people say that people should be allowed to do whatever they like on their property, but that doesn't extend to impacting others unfairly or potentially causing harm to animals. It's also, ironically, that some people that hold that belief don't hold it universally when something's about to affect them. So, it's not a matter of over-regulating, in my opinion.
It's merely setting a framework for Council to have guidelines for input into a system where SafeWork has the authority to issue or not issue. And we did see that SafeWork did not understand the conditions in the local area that had caused such concern last time. Also, in this era of emerging technology and various other lighting spectaculars that can occur, like drone displays and laser lights, we need to also be mindful that these should be encouraged when they become more cost-effective. They don't startle horses, they don't scare people maybe as much, and I'm sure that that's an alternative in some situations, given also that fireworks are rarely the core function. And it's not like the days when some of the older ones here amongst us would remember where fireworks were only let off on New Year's Eve or on what was called Cracker Day, Cracker Night.
So that was only twice a year. Now it can be every other weekend, sometimes several times a night in various locations. So it is, we really must translate what our people are telling us by having an obligation to have appropriate guidelines defining council's role and how we can have an input into that. So everybody will be able to comment what our community's expectations and how we balance those against other factors like economic opportunities. We've got to arrive at that by having a policy that has had the input from stakeholders to present what they think are the main issues around us, and then for us to take a decision about what we want to do about it. So it's going on public exhibition for, what's its time, 28 days, which is probably adequate.
I look forward to hearing what people in the community and others have to say about it, and I think that we will then be looking at if there were any suggestions for changes to the policy.
Thank you, Mr Mayor. Yes, I agree with most of what Councillor Lyons-Buckett has said. I think this is a policy that we really do have to look at, and we do need to get our community's feedback. When I was actually reading the policy, and please forgive me, I'm probably going to get a bit picky here, but on page 44 of the business paper,
Point 5.2, it explains council's notification process, and I read it a few times and I was a bit mystified. I'll just quickly read it out. It talks about the two types of licences that you need to get from SafeWork New South Wales, but it then goes on to say, The regulation requires that as a condition of each pyrotechnician's licence or other licence issued, the licensee must notify SafeWork New South Wales and the local council of an intention to use, and it says, fireworks, distress signal or model rocket propellant device. And I just thought, oh, I might look at the definitions of those, and there was only a definition of fireworks, and I just wondered, presumably it uses a distress signal whenever you're distressed. So do we get notified by people that are using
Through you, Mr Mayor. Not for emergency reasons, no, we wouldn't. If it was a genuine emergency, then that wouldn't require notification, but if anybody wanted to use it as part of a display, yes, we would. And the model rockets, yes, we should be notified, but I would suggest that we probably aren't. Okay,
Thank you for that clarification. So I just, I'll just, to fix that kind of confusion that I had, could we just have those definitions in the, before it goes onto public exhibition, could we just have those definitions? Because it was a bit weird. I thought, you know, having a licence for a distress flare that you might need to use is, yeah, a bit weird. But there was also a bit of confusion on page 46, where it says the aerial salutes, how you say it, of any size are banned, but then it says in the definitions that salutes larger than 75 mils are prohibited in New South Wales. Can
It was ... 0.5.7 on page 50, 46 rather. Oh, sorry, on the paper copy, page 46. In the table, it says, is it salutes? Aerial salutes of any size are banned. So have we done that? Is that what we're doing?
Through you, Mr. Mayor. We, as a council, we would object to any salutes, but the legislative framework that sits within the state relates to the size being prohibited. So because of the noise they generate, we will always object to them.
Yeah, no, I'm happy with that. I just wanted to know whether that was—I was reading that right. That's good. I think that's all I had, sorry. I'm satisfied that the distress things are okay. Thank you. Councillor Aczel.
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. This is not really a comment about the pyrotechnics display policy as such, but I was interested at the briefing night that Councillor Lyons-Buckett mentioned that she feels the way I've long felt. Fireworks were originated somewhere in China, somewhere around AD 600 to AD 900. I would have thought by now we could have moved on from fireworks generally. It's been very well shown by... Events such as Vivid in Sydney, the lighting up of the Opera House with lights. I find the noise is distressing for animals, the smoke haze that lingers on New Year's Day from all these fireworks having been sent off and just wasted. The environmental consequences are irreversible. There's fire risks with it.
I just don't understand why it still happens. And we do have facilities, technology, abilities to do things in a far less destructive way available to us now if we just have the will to get out and do it. So that's all I want to say. I just find it amazing that in 2024 we're still letting off fireworks all around the world. Makes no sense to me. Thank you.
Councillor Wheeler. Thanks, Mr Mayor. Unfortunately, Councillor Aczel will, it sounds like, will be not impressed to learn that we will be setting off quite a lot of fireworks in January next year. On councils, yeah, the council will be letting off those fireworks. I think really it's time that we transitioned away from them. There are better ways to put on a light show than exploding coloured gunpowder, really. And I'd like to see us, I know we can't do anything about 2025, but I would like to see us have that as a goal for our celebrations in 2026. I'm happy for this policy to go on exhibition. I'd like a couple of additions, for example, flora and fauna added to the line about animal welfare, and I'd like to see salutes of any kind banned, not just aerial salutes.
Salutes are just noise. So they're not a— and there are, to answer, to clarify Councillor Kotlash's question, salutes, aerial salutes, are things, are noise, are explosions that take place in the air, but you can also have salutes that occur on the ground as well. And so they're just the projectile , instead of firing the projectile into the air, you just explode it on the ground.
They're just noise, and they are, they don't do anything except make a big sound. That, while it might be exciting if you're in the thick of it, is really distressing, particularly to animals and wildlife. And they're really — I can't see a purpose for them. I mean, having, you know, having had them thrown at me as a young soldier to liven me up during various simulated section attacks, I can't find any other useful purpose for them. I don't know how they're fun, to be honest. None of this will fix the illegal activity that goes on with firecrackers, you know, and that I think is the, you know, that's one of the real difficulties for people with animals, particularly horses, in urban areas on the fringe where people are letting off crackers in the park around the Queen's Birthday or— I mean, we have crackers that we celebrate all sorts of things.
I think we've even celebrated, we've celebrated Good Friday in the past with crackers in the park. We've had crackers for all sorts of stuff. I don't know where those crackers come from anymore, but, yeah, that's— we can't do anything about— About that, apart from, you know,
Compliance demands. But this policy that gives some clarity to organisers and event holders, as well as members of the public and owners of animals, around what is reasonable and what can be reasonably expected, I think is the very least that we can do to try and regulate. The legal activity that goes on. I'd love a tougher policy, but I think fireworks are a silly waste of money. So I think this is useful, I guess.
Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'm going to be in the minority on this one. A poet once said, The world needs more fireworks, especially since we now seem to have a lack of beautiful, useless things. Cracker Night was last held in New South Wales on the 7th of June, 1986. I remember it well, and I've grieved ever since. I miss Cracker Night. I was in America earlier in the year, and they love their fireworks. They have a particular favouring of the ones that go bang, the ones that we've referred to here as an aerial salute. I approve. I don't think that this council should be in the business of adding another layer of bureaucracy to something that is sufficiently well regulated by SafeWork New South Wales.
I'm going to say something I've never said in this chamber in eight years. You're a bunch of party poopers. Prior to 1986, fireworks went off every year, and people didn't care for their animals any less than they do now. And we did just fine. There are many parts of the world where firecrackers are not regulated, where you can buy them at the shop, where you can let them off to celebrate a birthday or a wedding, where you didn't need a permit, and the world does not collapse in on them. I would like to have more fireworks, and I'm in good company. No less a figure than David Elliott, an MP some years ago, who was in his day the Minister for Police, wanted to reintroduce cracker night, brought a private member's bill to the New South Wales Parliament in about 2014.
It didn't go anywhere because he was in a minority, like I am. I know I'm not going to win this one, but I am going to wag my finger and say shame on you all for trying to kill cracker night.
Councillor Zamprogno might not want to use the word all because this is probably the 0.01 percent moment in my life that I'll agree with Councillor Zamprogno. I too wholeheartedly support fireworks in the right context, and I am supporting the policy because I do believe that private entities probably should notify Council so that we can do the right thing in terms of being aware of it. But give me a break. We have to have some fun and joy in this world, for goodness sake. And the thousands of people that flock to our river on Australia Day to see the wonderful fireworks display and the oohs and the ahhs and the claps and the cheers at the end is something our community looks forward to. The fact that that many people cluster around Sydney Harbour and Times Square and all these amazing places every New Year's Eve because people want to be happy, and whether you agree fireworks are or are not the solution for that, let it be.
If it's done properly, appropriately and professionally, let people have some fun and some joy. And if putting some lights in the sky in a pretty pattern does that, then let it happen because— I guess that's what makes me a conservative liberal, rather than a left-wing political party, because I certainly believe that some things in life are just taken way too seriously, and this is something that certainly needs to be just let go and let people have fun and enjoy. It brings people together, community comes together, small businesses. You see the food trucks down at our Australia Day event. They're benefiting from the business as well. People have all their Australia Day gear on. It's just, it's so much fun.
I don't want our council to be known as something that destroys the last bits of fun that we have left in society. So I would never support pulling our fireworks displays from this council because it brings such wonderful happiness to our community. I don't mind, as I said, supporting this policy. It puts a regulation on the private sector, but to me, the more fireworks Hawkesbury City Council can do, properly, the better. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'd have to say, Councillor [unclear], I'm not a wowser either. I'd like to take my lead from Canberra, be probably the most leftist progressive government in Australia who have still legalised fireworks, as I say, and I don't think they've banned that to date. I see a lot of joint fireworks too, but I think there should be some restriction from the private guys that are letting off crackers. I go back to the showground as well. Every show we have fireworks, I think, on a Friday night and Saturday night, do we not? And there's animals there, but I understand where the concern is. There probably does need a bit some regulation on it. I can remember some years ago when my kids were very young.
I lit off firecrackers in our yard because my place was compliant in those days. So how to get around that? You bring all the neighbours in and you tell them to put the dogs away and happy days, and they’re quite happy to take the meat on the barbecue and everything else. I know it was a good night, even if it was raining. Yeah, I’m kind of conflicted over this a little bit. I’d bring back cracker night probably tomorrow for those who are responsible, instead of blowing their fingers off, I say. But there’s always one or two that just destroy it for most of us. So where I’m at with it, I think I’ll probably support putting that out to the community to see what it comes back with. If it doesn’t necessarily, I’ll vote it up the next time it comes back to the chamber, though.
Just a question to the staff. Was there any companies that were involved in the policy setting or making, or was it just information that was provided?
No, the policy was drafted based on the framework that’s set by State Government and SafeWork New South Wales. The policy articulates what has really been Council’s position in the last, probably decade at least. So all it does is it clearly articulates what we’ve already been doing. So thank you.
Okay, just to make a comment. I got a fair serve, I might add, from a chap that was in the firework business when the issue with Kurrajong happened. He was taken back quite a bit that we made decisions at that time without asking his advice on how we might proceed with it and the likes. The property owners was spoken to, but not the chap who actually did it, because he said there's many ways to have fireworks in particular situations, and the showground was mentioned and the like.
And if anyone comes out to Ebenezer any weekend, either Friday or Saturday night, if they miss one weekend, I'm very surprised. It's not a lot, but it's some. I know who it is, but there's somebody that likes fireworks out that way.
I have lots of fun, and it doesn't involve fireworks. I've got my own disco ball with a light display. No, I think this is a very serious matter. And Mr Mayor, just to correct you, it wasn't Kurrajong, it was Bilpin adjoining a World Heritage area. And I also got a lot of flak from the fireworks man as well. But part of the reason that situation developed was that we had no guidelines that we could easily have referred to. The Manager of Compliance has just said it's been our position, but this is formulating that into a sense that we would have the guidance to be able to respond when those sort of issues came about. And let's not forget how upset many of those people were. In fact, horse owners from across the Hawkesbury had contacted us, and I was contacted during pre-poll.
People came and said, ‘Thank you for bringing that.’ People from Pitt Town who say it goes on down there, people from all over who have this issue, and as Councillor Wheeler alluded to, much of it is— Much of it is illegal activity that we have no means to control. But I don't think you'd be missing cracka night if you saw some of the horrendous accidents that used to happen there. If you saw people blinded, and if, as Councillor Aczel has just said, his mother received major burns, these sort of things are not to be taken lightly. It may all be fun when it's in a big event that has a lot of structure around it, but when there's small events and there's not the various sorts of controls, or if it's in an inappropriate location, then we have to be listening to our community and translating that into a policy that we deal with.
Being said to be a party pooper because we want to make it safe and appropriate for people is quite offensive, and it's offensive to all those people that last time when they came to us, you know, people were prepared to support them. So it's a backflip on that as well. We need to put it out to public exhibition. People, I would like to see it as well as having flora and fauna, I would like to have specific areas where it simply is not suitable. There's some areas in this LGA, it is not appropriate to be doing that sort of activity. I don't know if we can do that. It's a policy that's going to have various opinions. I understand that. But I think that I'm really grateful for the staff for having come up with it, and I'm looking forward to see what other people will bring.
And before, I think I may have laughed when Councillor Zamprogno said David Elliott, I thought he meant John Elliott. That was why I laughed. Just clarifying that. Yes, so this policy does clearly articulate a way forward, and I look forward to hearing what people have to say about it.
CS - Code of Conduct Complaints Statistics Report - 1 September 2023 to 31 August 2024
Les Sheather
In relation to item 10.4.2, it was part of the block. 10.4.3 was also in the section of the block section. We go to 10. 4.4, Code of Conduct Complaints Statistical Report.
RESOLVED on the motion of Councillor McMahon, seconded by Councillor Kotlash.
That the report provided under Clause 11.1 of the Council's Procedures for the Administration of the Code of Conduct, in respect of the Code of Conduct complaints statistics for the period from 1 September 2023 to 31 August 2024, be noted.
No, Mr Mayor, I have my last one. Discussion. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'm pleased to see the government doing this review of the Code of Conduct and meeting practices, although not a lot on the meeting practices. We've seen the code blatantly used as a political weapon, and we see at what cost from the previous item, at what cost to the community it comes. And the review has rightly identified that this is what's occurring, and there's many vexatious and frivolous codes of conduct being lodged. The discussion paper identifies some of the weaknesses, but I'm not sure that it's actually touched on all the sections that probably need to be amended to deliver a better code. I'll refer to the council submission tonight, but I will be making my own individual submission, which I will make publicly available as well.
So many sections in the code have really ambiguous, poorly defined provisions, and these need to be tightened, especially around the areas of conflict declaration where the onus is on the councillor to self-assess. I definitely support the provision of investigative powers to the OLG to uncover any underlying beneficial ownership and interests that may exist, especially around development issues or the issues of tenders and project contracts. If we don't know who's behind a company, then how does anyone know if there's a conflict there? I also agree with the paper's objective to draft legislation clearly defining developers and management of association in that space. The introduction of a privileges committee of senior and experienced mayors and ex-mayors determining what constitutes appropriate behaviour is fraught with the potential to be utilised as a political weapon.
I think if it was broadened to include more than just ex-mayors, but also experienced councillors from areas not connected to an LGA that the councillor being assessed was from, that would perhaps be an improvement. But I don't like the idea overall, as Council identifies in its submission, more information is needed around the framework and structure of any such committee. One of the points I really agree with is around what Council points out around lobbyists. We know that locally specific people and groups act as lobbyists from across the political spectrum, and this requires an appropriate level of transparency attached to it. Having a register of local lobbyists, as well as being able to publicly access the information when lobbyists are receiving a fee for pursuing significant projects, should be a bare minimum for the requirements of transparency.
Ordinary meetings depend very much on the principles contained in the Code of Meeting Practice being adhered to, and timely and accurate responses to how points of order or misrepresentation are dealt with by the Chair. All councillors should understand how they operate and how to use them, and that just goes without saying, I think. My concern around the banning of private briefings is, it's just such a, I find it quite an unusual thing to have raised in the way it has been. But sometimes information in briefings would be confidential and should remain so, but I've got absolutely no objection to briefings being held in a manner that the public can actually watch them and hear. We're very constrained within these meetings with what we can say, and it's often very hard in five minutes to get out what you want to say.
But more importantly, probably, it's the material from briefings and the opportunities to ask questions of staff that are things that shouldn't necessarily be kept from the public. That would answer a lot of questions that the public may have, especially around contentious issues. So as well as having briefings, or I don't even know if you'd call them briefings, but either forums or something where people could also hear that information would be good. The public have a right to know what we've been told about any specific issue because that is informing our decisions. I was a little bit shocked a few years ago when an experienced councillor in here suggested that we make our decisions in briefings and then just come as a box-ticking exercise to these meetings to keep them as short as possible, which was an appallingly undemocratic suggestion.
The suggestion in there that the mayor receive information that other councillors don't receive is a little problematic. I'm well aware that the mayors have discussions with the General Manager about various issues that may not involve all councillors. But when it comes to information that is around decision-making, I believe that the Act in itself actually compels that all councillors are given the same information, and the mayor being a councillor as well. So I don't think that the mayor should get information in that regard that's separate from what the councillors get. We should all be given the same access to information in that regard. But I thank the staff for putting in the submission.
I really hope that this review will make some meaningful changes to the code that makes it a more fair and balanced and effective document, if there can be such a thing in this situation.
Councillor Veigel. Yeah, thanks, Mr Mayor. Yeah, it's more of a question, maybe a statement other than this, but if one finds oneself in front of a disciplinary committee, it's got to be some procedural fairness in this. And I get the point of view that you don't want to politicise it. I— because there's dangers here of bias. So I don't know whether—I'll have to wait and see whether they come back with this anyway, this code of conduct. I don't know if the staff have got a comment on this anyway, because you've reviewed this very thoroughly. I guess the question through you, Mr Mayor, have we, and do we have a position?
Thank you. Through you, Mr Mayor. Look, certainly councillors, the submission does touch on the fact that Council wouldn't support the appointment of current mayors or councillors to the local government privileges committee, just noting that potential for that conflict of interest and, you know, it's a— Relatively small world at times, local government. So I understand and appreciate the concerns that may arise from relationships between current sitting councillors and mayors. And so that has formed part of our draft submission.
Mr Mayor. I welcome the staff's submission . I will also be preparing one of my own. There's, I think there's pros and cons in this discussion paper. I think it needs to be taken in light of previous statements by the Minister for Local Government, who has previously been quite contemptuous of councillors, of our position as decision makers, our remuneration and our capacities. He's not endeared himself to anybody. There's a statement in the discussion paper that I really have issue with. How councillors behave, how they deliberate and the responsibilities they hold should be modelled on how members of Parliament are expected to behave and act. Now that is frankly a laughable statement. We've seen one member of the Legislative Council in the last couple of years tell another MLC that she can't take a joke about sexual fetishes because she's a victim of child sexual abuse and therefore not entitled to make decisions in that chamber.
Is that the model we're supposed to be basing our behaviour on? Is that the thing we're supposed to be looking up to? The Broderick report, which was delivered two years ago and which we're still waiting to see real change from, shows just how well the New South Wales parliamentary code is working. It's only that last—this year—the Parliament's finally agreed to an internal inquiry into standing orders to require respectful behaviour, especially relating to sexism and racism. For us to be looking at them as role models is frankly ridiculous. But just like the Parliament, we need to respect the notion that poor behaviour of councillors towards each other is a workplace health and safety issue.
There is some good in this discussion paper. Freedom of— the idea that councillors are entitled to freedom of speech, I think, will be a shock to some people who have been quite happy to cut off councillors' access to freedom of speech, and independence of decision-making, which again is a bit rich coming from the New South Wales government when they've continued to strip the powers of New South Wales councils over several terms and different flavours of government. The notion of open debate and of procedural fairness, and I note that that's not always afforded under the current system, certainly as I've experienced it. Timely and proportional judgment, I think that's a laudable goal. Very often, by the time particularly pecuniary and significant interests are investigated, the horse has bolted and the decision has been enacted.
Currently, we only have recission motions as a means of closing the gate.
The idea of additional powers to investigate corporate structures, I think, for the Office of Local Government, I think, may be very useful. There is bad in this, though. Increased powers to mayors, I think, are problematic. They are very often political appointments, and there is an inherent bias. I think it's a cop-out that banning developers and real estate agents infringes on the right to free political speech. Councillors have been denied free political speech for years without it bothering the minister. The legislation looks like a potential way forward, but it does seem overly complicated. The conduct unbecoming charge I find really, really concerning, and I would like our submission not to say that those three levels are fine.
They're not fine. Conduct unbecoming is an incredibly subjective charge that has been borrowed from the military, and it is frequently misused. I saw it repeatedly used to discriminate, to actively discriminate against LGBTI members of the Defence Force. Who gets to decide what is morally right or wrong? That's very much an issue that needs to be done in a far more open and transparent fashion than the Code of Conduct offers. A better charge is conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline. That would be, if we're going to adopt something out of the DLM, that would be a far better charge to pick. For far too long, the idea of bringing councillor into disrepute has been used to shut down political speech.
I think that there's a focus here on minimising complaints rather than minimising poor behaviour. We've talked about removing sitting councillors and mayors, and I think that's a good inclusion. There seems to be a failure across the board of an understanding that councillors are very often poorly paid for the work that we do and are often required to work two jobs, and that has an impact on both our pecuniary interests, our significant interests, and the other ways that we do our work. One month's salary, in our case $2,000, is a significant hit to a councillor, and it would have seriously. Can I just finish? I've got two more things. Seriously deleterious impacts on councillors' livelihood and their families.
It needs very strong safeguards. And I think that there's huge problems in this idea that respect and dignity is conferred by whether we stand up for the mayor or we stand up to speak, and the idea that you would be made to apologise when you're not contrite, frankly invites hypocrisy, not better behaviour.
If anybody is of mind to put a submission in, it's a document that's going to impact councillors into the future. So if you have a view, it'd be wise to express it.
RESOLVED on the motion of Councillor McMahon, seconded by Councillor Kotlash.
That Council endorse the Draft Hawkesbury City Council submission to the Office of Local Government in response to the Councillor Conduct and Meeting Practices Discussion Paper as attached as Attachment 2 to this report.
We're looking at a confidential session in relation to item 15.1.1. Is that where you're going to confidential? Yeah. 2025 Hawkesbury Australia Day Awards. Can we have a two-minute break, Mr Mayor? That might be a good suggestion, Councillor. Five minutes. Before we go into confidential, we'll have a couple-minute break. Thank you.
Item 15.1.1. Confidential - Moved Into Closed Session
Mary Lyons-Buckett
Mr Mayor, I have a significant non-pecuniary interest in categories 1 and 3 of item 15.1.1. I'm on the board with three fellow board members being nominees for the awards. So I will leave the room for categories 1 and 3, if perhaps you could do 2 after 3 and I could return. And the other thing could I just note that I have asked Patricia if we could have some clarity around conflicts with this particular exercise because I'm sure a lot of people in here know a lot of the people nominated and, you know, it's a little bit hard to define. So that would be good. Thank you. I shall return shortly.
Okay. Any other declarations? Okay. Motion to move into confidential. Motion to move into confidential. Councillor Creed. Councillor Reardon. Those in favour?
