6 May 2025 - Ordinary

Good evening and welcome to Hawkesbury City Council meeting of the 6th of May 25. I'd like to welcome all those who are in attendance to the meeting in the gallery tonight, as well as those attending online.

Hawkesbury City Council acknowledges the Darug and Dharugung people as traditional custodians of the land of the Hawkesbury. We pay respect to Elders past, present and emerging, and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people as First Peoples of this country. I'll now hand over to the General Manager.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Members of the public attending the meeting this evening are advised that in the event of an emergency, you will be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit following the guidance of our warden. I would also like to advise that in accordance with Clause 5.3.3 of the Code of Meeting Practice, meetings of the Council are recorded. In the terms of the Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, this may involve the recording of personal information provided at the time of the meeting. The recordings are made to assist staff in compiling the minutes of the meeting and to enable the podcasting and live stream of Council meetings. The provision of any information that is recorded is voluntary.

If any person does not wish to be recorded, they should not address or request to address the meeting. The gallery can be seen in the live stream video, and if you do not wish to be recorded in the live stream, please move into the foyer, and we will turn the foyer speakers on for you. The recordings may be made available to other persons where such access is in accordance with the relevant regulations. The recordings are stored on Council's record management system and uploaded to Council's website. Meetings of the Council may be separately recorded with the prior authority of the Council. For the benefit of those persons who will be addressing the Council tonight, it is expected you will refrain from making any insult, allegation or personal reflection against any person present or not at this meeting.

This request relates to both your address to Council and any answers given in response to questions from Councillors. Finally, it is also requested that if any person attending, participating in or attending the meeting this evening has their mobile phone on them, can you please either turn it off or turn it to silent. Thank you, Mr Mayor.

Thank you. This evening, Councillors, we do have a special guest with us. There wouldn't be many of you, if any, that remember Mr John Horrocks. Would you like to stand, John?

John was our first Mayor of this city, the last President prior to that. He's got 30 years' experience in local government, involved in numerous roles, both federal and state, and certainly represented councils across this state on many issues. Floodplain management, probably one of the most. He's down here for a week, and I've spoke with the staff and John. He's going to do an interview with our staff at the library to look at some and speak about some of the history. And believe you me, there's a lot there. So, John, thanks for attending tonight and giving us a chance to acknowledge your presence and your contribution to our city. Thank you.

We don't have any apologies. Everybody is in attendance. Declarations of interest. Deputy Mayor.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. I have a less than significant non-pecuniary interest in item 10.5.2.

10.5.2 .

Councillor Wheeler.

10.1.1, 10.5.2 and 11.1.1.

You're going to be with us the rest of the night. Yes. 11.

2.

Yep. 11.

4.

Yep. Traffic. Yep.

Sorry, Councillors. Mr Mayor. Councillor Djuric. Thanks, Mr Mayor. I've got a less than significant non-pecuniary interest in item 11.1.1.

Thank you, Councillor.

Okay, the confirmation of the minutes of

The meeting on the 8th of April.

Yes, I'll move those.

Councillor Reardon.

Councillor Zamprogno. I have a question

Mr Mayor. Question.

On 11.1.1, Part 3, Section B, the seeking of legal advice in respect of Council's indemnity if it does not adopt the recommendation in relation to the planning options in the Hawkesbury Floodplain Risk Management Study and Plan of 2025. Have we got an answer to that or is there one pending?

Pending. When is this likely to

Be delivered? Council will get back in the next day or so and let the other councillors know when that's due. Thank you.

Any other questions or debate?

Those in favour?

Those against? It's unanimous. Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Isbacher, Councillor Ryan, Councillor Djuric, Councillor McMahon, Kotlash, Councillor Creed, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Reardon, Councillor Dogramaci and Councillor Sheather. It's carried.

Items to address the public. We have— Excuse me, Mr Mayor, just before we go on,

I wasn't at the last council meeting, so I didn't actually vote then. I wasn't at the last council meeting, so I didn't vote to accept the minutes. You just recorded me as voting for the minutes. Sorry

Councillor Kotlash. That was a— you vote

Against it

I didn't vote at all because I wasn't there, so I wasn't there for that meeting.

Right.

So I didn't vote for accepting the minutes because I— Abstain.

Thank you. Can that be recorded? Thank you.

Items to address the public. We have two items. The first one's the Mayoral Minute, and we have Penny Randall, who wishes to address that item.

My name is Penny Randall, and I would like to sincerely thank the Council for allowing me to speak tonight and for bringing awareness to National Driver Safety Week in May. On the 15th of January 2024, at approximately 9.40 p.m., my son Addison Bimjani was a passenger in a car that collided at high speed with a telegraph pole on Windsor Road at McGrath's Hill. This was a completely preventable crash. As a mother, nothing could have prepared me for the heartache and devastation that followed. I am deeply grateful to the Hawkesbury community for the support I have received during this incredibly difficult time. I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the strength and solidarity that exists within our local community.

The Hawkesbury is unique in that we operate as a big village where people know each other and look out for one another. It is this strong community spirit that can make all the difference when it comes to issues such as road safety. While it is crucial that we as parents are actively engaged in the safety and wellbeing of our own children, we must also consider the safety of their friends and peers. Our responsibility doesn't end with our own children, but extends to the young people they interact with. We all have a role to play in fostering an environment of awareness, responsibility and care. By supporting initiatives such as National Driver Safety Week, we have the opportunity to reach not just our own children, but their friends, their networks and a broader youth community.

When we come together as parents, educators and community members, we can create an environment where the message of safe driving and responsibility is consistently reinforced. Awareness and support can change lives, and it can save lives. It's essential to understand that the choices made by young drivers can have a profound, life-altering consequences, not just for themselves, but for those around them

If this initiative saves just one life,

If it makes even one P-plater think twice before speeding, it will have been worth it. Statistics have shown that a significant number of P-platers lose their lives on the road each year, and these deaths are preventable with the right education and support. I urge everyone in the Hawkesbury community to continue supporting National Driver Safety Week and similar initiatives. Let's work together to spread the message of safe driving and responsibility. By doing so, we can help ensure

That fewer families experience the devastation and preventable crashes, and that young people make better choices when they get behind the wheel. Thank you again. Thank you once again for this opportunity to speak and for your commitment to making our community safer.

Thank you, Penny. Is there any councillors that wish to

Ask or speak of it?

Thanks for your bravery. Thank you.

Councillors, I'll just touch on some of the things that we try and do to prevent this sort of heartache that people go through. The council's dedicated to working towards zero campaign. We're involved. Most of it's in your business paper, but there's people here that might not be aware of some of the things that we do. Excuse me. Child care restraints and fitting days that we're involved with, Hawkesbury Youth Driver workshops, supervisor of learner driver workshops, community road safety education and community events and council programs. We've got a National Road Safety Toolbox that the staff talk about issues where we can be involved in road safety on a regular basis. Road Safety Week, where we've got banners and the like and the emails that go out from council that promote the safety awareness.

On our website, when we can, it's also shared. Display of National Road Safety Week logos on Windsor, Mulgrave Roads, electric signs and the like. Road Safety National Week, we've got posters in administration and in other parts of our city like libraries and the like. Transport for New South Wales crash cars display, that'll be at the Hawkesbury Show. Road safety themes, story time, it's told at libraries and the likes to younger people. We've got young drivers face-to-face work.

Signs, the Mulgrave Road electric signs and the likes. Road Safety National Week, we've got posters in administration and in other parts of our city, like libraries and the like. Transport for New South Wales crash cars display, that'll be at the Hawkesbury Show. Road safety themes, story time, it's told at libraries and the likes to younger people. We've got young drivers face-to-face workshops, walk safely to school. The Deputy Mayor and I are involved with the police at primary schools to work with younger children about crossing roads. Supervision to learn to drive online workshops as well. The things that we do every day as a council is our black spots, the work we do with black spots, the Australian Government infrastructure programs, road safety funding programs and local government road community infrastructure.

They can be from slowing devices to pedestrian crossings to roundabouts, all the things that minimise, I guess, or try to lessen impact on incidents in our community that cause heartache. Councillors, it's always a tough time for people who, in any form of an incident, to speak, as Penny did tonight, is brave, I believe, that she's going down to speak with the Premier in the not too distant future. And I wish you all the success.

Deputy Mayor.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. And I do just want to echo the words you've just said about Penny, and I cannot fathom, and I don't think many of us in this room can fathom how much courage you've had coming here tonight, Penny, and sharing your story, just so briefly with all of us during this very important week that we need to promote this message of road safety.

Thank you for what you've said, and thank you for your advocacy. And as the Mayor just said, you are taking that advocacy further to the Premier statewide and talking about the experience that you and your family have had and, as you said in your words, to try and make a difference to other people. So thank you so very much for that. I think many of us here, or all of us in this room , know exactly what Penny was talking about with her young son here tonight.

And it's been a shocking reminder that here in the Hawkesbury, throughout the years, there have been too many tragedies on our roads. And we know that that's because we are a large LGA, we have an expansive road network, we have limited public transport. So our young drivers—I have a 17-year-old P-plater. Many of us who have kids have had kids on their Ls and their Ps getting their cars, and all as we can do as parents and peers to our young people is do what we can to guide them to be safer and better drivers. And that's very difficult. And, you know, we look after our kids until that point where they get in a vehicle and off they go on their own, and it's a very difficult time. I thank Penny for sharing her story with all of us because it is a really important reminder, not just as a parent, but also as an elected body here at Council, of what we have to do to promote that message of road safety.

And I want to thank the Mayor for bringing the Mayoral Minute forward because even when we were talking about bringing it forward, I wasn't even aware, once it was all condensed into one motion, how much Hawkesbury City Council does do towards promoting road safety. So you can see there all of the things that we take part in: the child car restraint checks and fitting days, the young driver workshops, which are a face-to-face workshop, the supervisor of learner driver workshops, which are online. I know that these messages are pushed out through our social media channels, and I think that we should probably share them on our social media networks as well and encourage as many people in the Hawkesbury to participate in these programs.

I know many of them are free or at least low cost, so I think that promoting what we do as a Council towards road safety is vitally important. The Mayor mentioned he and I will be at a local school in coming days with the police, teaching kids about how to walk safely to school, and that is done. The last few years when I was the Mayor, that was done in conjunction with Little Blue Dinosaur, who is an amazing organisation, who the lady who runs that charity lost her young son, who was hit by a vehicle after walking out onto the road. You might also note tonight that the Mayor and I are wearing yellow ribbons, which are part of sarahgroup.org. And if many of you remember a few years ago when we had one of our Australia Day ceremonies, we had Peter Fraser here, who was our Australia Day ambassador, and Peter is the father of Sarah.

who this ribbon represents. And since he lost his daughter Sarah to a road tragedy, he has started this organisation and forever will be an advocate for road safety as well. And it was a privilege and an honour to meet Peter many years ago when he was our Australia Day Ambassador. So I do want to encourage everyone to read this mayoral minute, look at what Hawkesbury City Council does to promote Road Safety Week, which is actually from the 11th to the 18th of May, and it's not a statewide campaign; it's a national campaign. And so I think it's really important to get that message out there across the country. I don't have a timer, so I'm not sure how long I've got left to go, but I'll wrap it up.

Again, thanking Penny for coming here tonight, being so brave and courageous. And again, please everyone do what you can through your networks to share the message of road safety. Thank you.

Thank you. Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Mr Mayor, and thank you, Penny, for coming along. And I'm very sorry for your loss, as we all are. Mr Mayor, I was wondering if you could add something to your mayoral minute in that perhaps this chamber could pass a resolution for Penny to take with her to the Premier our support for her advocacy in the form of a letter from the 12 councillors, if everyone agrees, to be able to pass on to the Premier the specific needs for increased road safety in the peri-urban areas such as ours. As a council body, we can use our voice in that way to add to the advocacy. And I think that we do need more—we need more options for youth to get around if they don't have a car, and we need it to be safer for the youths who are in their cars.

And that means we do do a huge amount of road safety, but it's limited in funding and… I think sometimes the politicians have to realise the specifics of the areas in which we live. Sometimes more resources have to go to those areas where we've got these challenges. So I would like if we could pass , add to your minute that we would collectively as a chamber, I'm not sure of the wording, but give Penny a letter to take to the Premier saying we support her advocacy and any calls for increased road safety in the Hawkesbury.

I'm only too happy. I don't know that we need to put a resolution. I'll give a commitment that we do that, and I should imagine it'll be supported unanimously, and that would be in such a letter.

Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Mr Mayor, and thanks, Ms Randall, for coming in. That takes an extraordinary amount of strength, I think, to stand up. Addressing the chamber is difficult enough. Addressing the chamber in these circumstances, I think, is a really hard ask. I really welcome the level of detail that's in this mayoral minute. It's very helpful for us to see what the organisation is doing. I think it's also well worth putting it on the public record. I echo the Deputy Mayor's comments about using our social media to promote these activities, and that's something that we should start doing now so people have time to fit them into their diaries for next week. I think there's a couple of add-ons here that are also worthwhile.

I think sharing this information with the federal and state member to show them what council is doing in this space. Road safety isn't a particular local government responsibility, and yet we are well aware of the issues in our own LGA due to our distance, our lack of public transport, the fact that we have many, many young drivers covering long distances on difficult roads, often late at night, and that this impacts on their ability to both socialise and to get to and from school and work. So our young people are on the road early, they're on the road often and for long periods of time, and that's why our statistics are so high. One of the things that Ms Randall talked about that I think is really interesting is the fact that the community is becoming quite supportive around these issues.

And I've watched a couple of things happen just on the Wilberforce page that I belong to. We've got a young bloke currently on his L plates who's riding a motorbike from Windsor to Wilberforce. I don't know what his destination is, but he's not riding in a particularly safe manner. And there's been a post on social media where everybody's got—where the initial post wasn't, Who owns this young kid? because, you know, someone needs to—someone. .. It wasn't an angry post; it was a very caring post saying, Is this young kid yours? Because he's going to come to a sticky end, and we all need to get involved in sorting this out. And it was a really supportive post around, with older members of the community, motorcyclists as well, saying someone needs to have a chat to this young kid and set him straight.

And I think that's the space that we need to move into. The more adults push back and tell kids to stop behaving stupidly, the more young kids behave stupidly. We all know that. We were all—well, most of us were young once. So I think getting some state and federal advocacy in this space is also useful, and that's why I'd like to send this to both the federal and state member. I'd also like to flag a motion to Local Government New South Wales calling for increased road safety, an increased road safety focus in peri-urban areas because of the challenges that we face. We have some good relationships around road condition with peri-urban councils around Sydney, Wollondilly, for example. And so far we've really talked about the condition of our roads, but I think that there is also a piece, an advocacy piece, around— Around supporting our young people to become successful drivers on our roads.

My son is now 24. He has a truck licence, and he's very protective of that licence because it allows him to drive a fire truck. He also has a motorbike licence. His driving instructor, when he was 17—he was a very early driver—pulled him aside, and there was no congratulations after he got his licence. His driving instructor pulled him aside and said, Right, now you've got this massive responsibility. This isn't a party. This is a new level of responsibility for you. You are driving something that could kill you or somebody else, and you need to be really serious about that. And as a parent, I was incredibly grateful to hear that conversation, and that, I think, is the messaging that has to come across to our kids.

Yes, it's a great achievement to get a licence, but it's a really big responsibility as well. And it's a hard— you can't put an old head on young shoulders. These are hard things. Thanks.

Councillor, I'm quite happy to make sure the local members get a copy of what's in the business paper and the letter of support that we give in relation to the motion. It might be appropriate to bring it up at the next meeting. Thank you, Councillor. Any further discussion?

I'll put the mayoral minute. Those in favour?

It's unanimous. That's Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Ryan, Councillor Djuric, Councillor McMahon, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Creed, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Regan, Dr. Marcin [unclear]. Those against? The motion is carried. Thank you, councillors.

Thank you, Councillors.

Reports for exception reports. There are— sorry. Oh, sorry. 10.1.1. The second item of speakers is item 10.1.1, slab barns, and there's two speakers, Mr. Graham Eds and Mr. — Mr. Mayor Jan Barclay-Jack. Councillor Wheeler.

Mr. Mayor, I have a pecuniary interest in item 10.1.1, the slab barns and outbuildings study, in that my home is one of the items included in the planning proposal.

Thank you, Councillor.

Mr. Eds.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Councillors, General Manager and staff. Look, thank you for the opportunity to speak on this matter, and I certainly would like to reinforce the recommendation and ask Councillors to fully support that. And I guess I'd just like to give you a little bit of my background so that you know where I'm coming from. Many of you would know me, but some of you may not. I am a resident of Hawkesbury for 50 plus years. And I am an architect, now retired, but specialising in the conservation of historic buildings. And I have the privilege of belonging to Australia ICOMOS, which is the Australian counterpart to International ICOMOS, of which I am Australia's voting member in vernacular architecture.

So I guess I do have reasonable credentials to actually speak on this matter in regard to our slab barns, our Hawkesbury slab barns, which I believe are iconic and very rare commodity within Australia that we really need to support and give credibility to and also just make sure that they do live on.

It is with this background, Mr Mayor, that, as I mentioned, that I do fully support the studies that have been done, and I've been involved in those studies from the first one right through to the last one as a sub-consultant. And so I have actually been able to crawl all over these buildings and know a great deal about each and every one of them. And I think that it is fair to say that these buildings are, although Hawkesbury has a good number, are rare elsewhere in Australia. And you don't need to go outside of the third established area within Australia to actually. You really comprehend that as part of the focus of the colony actually and its existence through agriculture. And these buildings, of course, formed a very major part in that endeavour.

So I do wholeheartedly, Mr Mayor, support the recommendations in the business paper of the planning proposal and that to be forwarded on to the Department of Planning, Housing and Infrastructure.

Councillors, to protect the Hawkesbury's vast heritage, and particularly these timber outbuildings, is most important to Australia, not only at the state level, but the local level, but also the national level, because these buildings are of, or some of them in particular are, I believe, of national significance. And perhaps part of the recognition may extend to that in time to come.

My hope, of course, is that this recommendation in the business paper is only the start of the recognition that is necessary and prudent for these buildings. Madam Chair—sorry, Mr Mayor, I do applaud the recommendation and really do support it. And I'm happy to take any questions, should there be any.

Thank you, Mr. Eds. Any questions?

I have one. In relation to the barns and the like at the Piney Village, where do they fit in in the scheme of things that we're looking at here?

Okay, well the barn that I think you're referring to is what is known within the Australiana Pioneer Village as Salter's Barn. I think that's been misnamed. It's actually earlier than Salter owned that particular part of the property. It's actually a Cobbcroft barn and goes back to something like 1820, somewhere there. The other barn that is incredibly important, of course, is the one that the study referred to as Tebbutt's Barn, and that's the other one that Council owns in Palmer Street, I think it is. That one, of course, is in not very good condition currently, but it ought to be conserved in a very formidable way. And I guess this is where Council has the opportunity to take the lead amongst the community and say, well, here we are.

We're prepared to put some money, throw some money at this particular barn and not neglect it any further. And so then I think that that actually then becomes the impetus, or one of the impetus, to actually , I guess, stimulate other owners to actually do similar things to their barns, because they are valuable. Although with changing agriculture and the like, these, of course, aren't—they're only small scale, and bigger machines just don't fit. So some farmers are actually saying, well, it's not much use to me anymore. But they really need further incentives to actually allow these to live on in a fruitful way.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Edmonds

Thank you.

Do we have a mover?

Sorry Oh,

Sorry. Sorry, Jan Buckley-Jack.

Hi. For those who don't know me, I'm a professional historian.

I wanted to talk to you tonight to show you why I see the barns as an integral part of Hawkesbury's heritage, so that you can look at this motion historically and more widely. As the assessment before you reads, and I quote, Collectively, the slab barns are surviving evidence of early agricultural production of colonial Sydney. Now, that often gets thrown around, but have you ever wondered where that comes from? What's the proof? Well, one piece of evidence from 1801 comes from Governor King, and I quote, At the Hawkesbury, almost the whole of private industry, and by that is meaning ex-convict and poor free farmers, has been centred there, which has produced a great dependence on that quarter for supplying grain to other parts of the colony.

So this statement and others like it is where that reputation comes from, right from the beginning of the colony. And if you want to fact-check me, you can go to Historical Records of New South Wales, volume 4, page 321. Now, in some regards, however, it's the nuances and smaller perspectives which are actually important here. Indeed, in front of you in the papers, they also talk about the sum of the total. Each barn demonstrates its unique architectural value as influenced by its initial function, site-specific needs, and dominant styles over the varying decades of construction.

The historical significance of these barns is not replicated elsewhere, as Graham said. You won't find barns this early in this number in any other LEP. Hawkesbury is unique because this area was a unique part of the colony, unlike any other. It was one of the first three settled, and the same building styles were passed on through many generations. Moreover , on council's creation in 1981, Hawkesbury remained largely rural. Now, that continuation of farming and building barns is an amazing fact in today's world, continuing even despite urban expansion. We still have that focus. The barns do more than characterise the Hawkesbury district. They're a window into people's ordinary lives. You may have heard of ex-convict Margaret Catchpole, who wrote a letter to England in 1806.

About the raw and fearful memories the settlers had from that flood. And I want to quote a sentence of hers. She said, Some poor creatures ridden on their housen, some ridden on their barns and crying out for God to be saved.

I'll repeat the last bit: some riding on their barns.

Some barns on the list are categorised elsewhere in the business papers, needing money as a grant because they are in critical need or at risk or of high level significance. Take the wonderful barn just beyond the new roundabout on the road to Freeman's Reach. It's on a 1794 farm and is existing from an early date.

At present it is sliding into the river. It needs a lot of help. So many have been lost. So many. And with every disintegration of a barn, our district loses a little more of its innermost character. So I hope you're beginning to see my point. Heritage cannot be looked at without history, nor can it be looked at in isolation. Please keep this in mind when you make other determinations tonight, whether it's helping fund our residents already spending vast amounts of their own money keeping individual heritage items, or whether it involves keeping the integrity of Thompson Square and the early Green Hills Village precinct. Who else is the oldest civic square still in use in Australia and needing to be protected from incidental damage currently.

Thank you.

In particular, this item deserves to be passed.

Thank you. Anybody have any questions?

Thank you.

Councillor Buckett.

Mr Mayor, could I move the motion in the business paper, please?

AJ Dean. Yes,

Can I? I'll second it.

Councillor Crude.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr Mayor, and thank you to our speakers. We're incredibly fortunate to have people with such knowledge and expertise to provide us with additional insight and information around these very important structures that we happen to have in our area. As Mr. Ed said, they are iconic and very rare, and Mrs. Barkley-Jack described them as being integral to Hawkesbury's heritage, and this is very true. So it's extremely heartening to see this work progress to this level, and I thank the staff as well who have worked alongside the people who have done the actual studies to progress it to this stage of going with the planning proposal, going to the Department of Planning for a gateway determination.

My only hope is that there's not a significant delay at that stage to hold it up. Now that we've come this far, we would want to see it progressing, you know, at a reasonable pace. I think it's very interesting. It was just very interesting to listen to people with the knowledge speak about them. We all see these barns, of course, as we drive around. And as we were just told, they have a window into people's ordinary lives. And I think that's an amazing thing to think that for all those years of the continuing agricultural activity in the Hawkesbury, these structures have withstood that test of time, albeit many needing attention now. And hopefully that's where our focus can be now, to preserve and save, you know, these really important outbuildings.

I think the other interesting thing is that when you look at the maps that are in the business paper, it shows their scattering across the LGA, and we've got them in all the various places. And again, as we were just told, they've withstood the test of urban expansion growing up and around them. We've still managed to maintain our agricultural activity here, and many of us hope that that will continue and that we will be able to continue to have agriculture as one of our primary activities in the Hawkesbury. So this is a great step forward. I think that everyone will support it. I can't imagine why we wouldn't. It's going to be great. I just hope that we can put a focus on, as Mr. Ed said, being a leader in showing how we can ourselves on the barn that we own, Tebbutt's Barn, show that we can care for that and preserve that.

And I look forward to the gateway determination coming back as soon as possible.

Thank you, Councillor.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'd like to congratulate everyone on all their efforts with this. It's wonderful to see, and I particularly like the barn at Pitt Town's bottom, where there's a ramp that the cattle used to go up into in the top when there was a flood, and that's in quite good condition.

Thanks,

Councillor.

Councillor Ryan. Look, thank you very much. Thanks, Mr. Mayor and Mrs. Barclay-Jack. I am from the farms at Pitt Town. We had Boston Farm, Vine Cottage, a couple of those places there. Unfortunately, the farms were sold, and one Sunday morning our barns were bulldozed, which was shattering for the whole family to see this was happening. We thrived on the history, to know who was there, who walked before us, and to see what they had done. It was great. But I'd probably like to take this in a little bit of a different direction. We have these great opportunities with these barns. They are something that is special. They're iconic to the Hawkesbury. I'd be suggesting that perhaps I'd ask the staff to investigate how we could set up like a barn trail so everyone can see it.

We're on the doorstep of Sydney. People are really interested in this sort of thing. I go away and look at silos and woolsheds. We have these people here. We can bring them here to look at these barns and put a little bit of a history to them. I know that there's a great one at Pitt Town, which is Huxley's old blacksmith shops. William Huxley there, he trained horses for the Light Horse with Major John Payne. I was talking to his grandson. He was saying that he was never allowed to go to war because he was such a great horse trainer. He taught the horses how to lay down and the soldiers how to shoot across them to use them as hides and this sort of thing, and that's what he did. And I was fortunate enough to know his son, Jack Huxley, and he still carried on that tradition there for years.

The barn is in a little bit of a dilapidated way, but it is there. And if we could start a trail where we could put some of this history, put some of this real talk to it, so people can not only just go along and say, That's a barn, but say, In such and such a time, they moved the cattle up into the loft. This is where they trained light horse. This is where they stored a lot of grain. This is the old Vine Cottage that was one of the original houses. I think that would be a real plus to our community. Plus, it would showcase our barns. To a higher level, and perhaps that would give people more respect for them and give us a greater opportunity to protect these into the future. So, look, I will be fully supporting this, hands down, and thank you very much again for your effort.

You've done all the hard work for this to put it all together, and I think you should be commended. It was great. I read the whole thing. I just haven't visited all the barns yet. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor.

Any further discussion?

I'd like to reflect on something from quite some time ago, and it could have been at the time when the chap I introduced early in the night, Mr. John Horrocks, was mayor. Mr. Graham Eds approached Council on a matter of heritage not dissimilar to this. And something he said, as I've always remembered, he said, while we might be only here for a short time, we're the custodians of the very things that before us tonight. And we need to be mindful that we don't leave things in more disrepair than when we come in here. Not only heritage items, a whole heap of things, but our history is important. And the barns around the place, to have 19 that we're only looking at when only some years ago there was many more, is an indictment that we have not acted in an appropriate fashion to give the owners the opportunity to rectify the situation where they can utilise barns.

And with comments like Councillor Ryan indicated, to the advantage of the community that otherwise would never see them. So I commend the recommendation. Any further discussion?

Councillor Brogden. Thank you, Mr Mayor. My own family history is caught up with these kinds of issues. My family, one branch, came from Glenhaven, and we maintained the local post office. And there was a large barn, because we were orchardists by trade, the family. And apparently the barn was large enough to be the meeting place for the community. So there are records passed down, sometimes even in the Cumberland Argus and Fruitgrowers Advocate, of large social events that occurred in my great-grandfather's barn. In the 1970s, the development started to march through, and my grandfather, who had obtained permission to keep a dwelling, a more modern house, elsewhere on the property as a kind of dual occupancy, then found that Baulkham Hills Shire Council was leaning on him very, very hard to demolish the old post office, which was a beautiful cottage, and which, if it were there today, would be immediately recognised for its incredible heritage value.

But what still stings, generations later, in my own family, was the council leaning on us to demolish that building, because they didn't see the value of it, and the barn went the same way. If you were to drive past that location in Glenhaven Road now, you wouldn't—well, my grandfather wouldn't recognise the shape. Totally built out. Totally built out. That's been a big motivating factor in my impulse to be engaged in public service, because I wanted to stop that kind of wanton disregard for our heritage. to happen again. So it's for that reason that I'm extremely pleased to be able to support this initiative. Thank you.

Mr Mayor, I was just seeking some clarification as to whether Councillor Ryan was moving anything with his idea, or if staff could perhaps give an idea around how, if he were to want to raise that as a proposal, would that go to Heritage Committee, or would he have to bring a separate notice of motion, or how would that be sort of fed into the system?

General Manager.

Thank you. Through you, Mr Mayor, I think it would be my preference that we dealt with it this evening, Councillor, just to get something on the record, and then what would, I think, would happen, depending on where that landed, is that we would then likely report that back through Heritage Committee. Okay,

Thank you. Well, I might just seek, as the mover of the motion, whether Councillor Ryan wants me to put a point three onto that with regard to staff, I can't remember the words, but investigating the possibility of looking at some sort of barn trail. Barn trail, yep. Okay.

Yeah, I'm happy with that, that the request for the staff to investigate the barn trail and that we could bring it back to the Council and it would be great. Thank you.

Sorry ,

Through Heritage Committee

Or back to Council? Through Heritage. Thank you. Thanks

Councillor.

Agreed. Any further debate?

Yes. I'd just like to say that that could be part of our educational program for these slab barns, which we are hoping to develop.

Yep. Thank you.

Your light's still on, Councillor.

No further debate. Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Not really necessary. Just thank you to Councillor Ryan for that input and for people's stories around that. I think that we're all in agreement of the value of these barns and our commitment to see the efforts go forward.

Thank you, Councillor. Okay, the motion is one, two and part three that's been added about the trail. All those in favour?

It's unanimous apart from Councillor Wheeler's absent. Those in favour was Councillor Zamprogno, Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Ryan, Djuric, McMarn, Kotlash, Creed, Lyle, Reagan, Dr Marchi and Sheather. Thank you, Councillors. The motion is carried. Okay. The next item is the— Shall we fact Councillor Wheeler back in? Yep. I think he's gone. Councillor Creed's gone to get her Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.

I might move seats.

Thank you, Councillor. The next item that we've got is the items exception reports on block, which is item 10.3.1, 10.4.1, 10.4.2, and 11

1.2, and 16.4.1. Item 11.1.1 needs to be taken out of block, Councillor Djuric and, and Councillor Wheeler, I think, on that matter. Yep. And 16.4.1 will be dealt in confidential. Would someone like to move that one? I move those. Councillor Veigel. Second, Councillor Regan.

Okay, all those in favour?

Against? That's unanimous. Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Ryan, Councillor Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Creed, Veigel, Regan, Dogramaci and Sheather. Those against, the motion is carried.

Okay, the next item.

Okay. The next item we have,

10.3.1, review of delegation. Councillors, there's a late item that come with that. The only difference to that in the business paper is on page 14. There was an item that was missed in relation to delegation, and it was the authority from Council to the Floodplain Committee. That's the only difference within the business paper. Would someone like to move? Mr Mayor, Councillor McMahon and Councillor Kotlash. Any discussion?

Not necessary, Mr Mayor.

Councillor McMahon.

Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. I did have my light on previously. I'm going to speak against the motion and move instead to defer this item pending a discussion and a briefing for councillors so that we can discuss the delegations. We haven't had any opportunity to do that. We have councillors who've not been briefed on these delegations, and nor have we had any opportunity to explore any of them. So I think it would be best to take this to a briefing. I'll second that, Mr Mayor.

Councillor Lyons-Buckett. You're moving deferral.

I'm seconding. Councillor Wheeler just has moved a deferral to a briefing, and I am seconding that.

Okay, there's no issues legally in relation to deferring this at this time? That's

A matter for Council. Yep. No

But it's— no. They need to

Be dealt with within

The first. Okay. It can be discussed appropriately. There's no reason why it has to be dealt with tonight. Anyone wish to speak?

We've got an amendment.

Yep. It's an amendment that was moved.

Sorry

Councillor Ryan. Yeah, look, thank you very much. And look, I would like it to see this deferred. Being a new councillor, I've read it a couple of times. I still struggle with it, and I really have difficulty in agreeing to something that I don't understand, especially at this level. There's items around the peppercorn and other things there that I'd really like explained to me. And I think, for my sake and probably a couple of the other councillors, if we could get a briefing done, it would really put my mind at rest that we are performing our duty as councillors correctly. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor. If there's something specific in relation do you want, otherwise I'll organise for the staff to have an appropriate briefing. But if there's any particular questions that come to mind that you want to ask, that you might need information on prior to the briefing, if you could forward that.

Any further discussion?

Thank you, Councillors. Councillor Marn, you have a right of reply. No

I think we need to vote on the amendment

Sorry

Vote on the amendment first.

Yeah. Okay, we've got a motion that's the recommendation in the business paper and amendment, which is on the board. We'll vote on the amendment. Those in favour of the amendment

Those against? Councillor Dogramaci Favour or against?

Those in favour was Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Ryan, Councillor Djuric , Councillor Creed. Were you in favour? Yeah. Councillor Kotlash , Councillor Creed, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Reardon, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Sheather. Those against ? Those against was Deputy Mayor McMahon. The amendment is won.

The amendment now becomes the motion. Any discussion on the motion?

Councillor Martin, right of reply.

Okay, I shall put the motion, which is what's before us on the board. Those in favour?

It's unanimous. It's Councillor Zamprogno, Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Creed, Veigel. Reardon, Dogramaci and Sheather. Those against? The motion is carried.

Okay.

10.3.2. Councillor Lyons-Buckett. Yeah

I'll move that, Mr Mayor.

Thank you. Seconder? Councillor Wheeler.

I did call it up, Mr Mayor, but I didn't have anything specific. After all, I found the answer to my questions.

Thank you, Councillor.

You're moving the motion as it is?

I move the motion as it is in the business paper.

Thank you. Thank you . Any discussion? Those in favour?

Against? That's carried. It's Councillor ... Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Ryan, Councillor Djuric, Councillor McMahon, Councillor Kotlash is absent, Councillor Creed, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Reardon, Councillor Dogramaci, Councillor Sheather.

The next item is the draft memorial policy.

Councillor

Veigel. And —

Do we not do lights anymore, Mr Mayor?

Sorry?

Do we not put our light on for moving motions anymore?

Yes. Did I miss something?

Councillor Veigel and Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Councillor Veigel, do you— Thanks, Mr Mayor. Only to say that I recommend it goes out to the public. I've read it in detail. I think you've probably dotted all the i's and crossed the t's, especially, I think, when this came up last year in the last term. So just thanks to the staff for getting it out. So I particularly took notice about the dual liaise with families and friends before you take any roadside memorials. I know that's probably in there, and I think many times I think compassion will probably overrule the necessity to take the memorial down because often I see them there. So, but for what it's worth, thank you, and I'd recommend it go out to public for comment. Thanks. Thank you. Councillor

Buckett.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I had two questions regarding it. One was — I noticed there's no specific locations that are exempt from it, and I just wondered if that was something we should have

Perhaps

Considered, whether there was anywhere where it was just going to be off limits and that was it, to save us any issues that came up around. I noted, I read some of the memorial policies of other councils, and some of those specify sort of particular areas, and it's just like don't ask to put it there because it's just not feasible, not practical, or not allowable. As this is going out to public exhibition, I expect we can deal with that between, but that may be something to look at just to save that becoming an issue in the future. And the other thing was, it did say that if people were refused, that staff would work with them. I'm just thinking there wasn't a lot around that. I'm just hoping that, how would..

. I just know in the past when this issue came up before, there were some people who were sort of a bit funny about having these things, and I wouldn't like to think people were going to be eliminated and then they didn't have an avenue to come back. So is that clear enough in here? I don't know. Maybe that's something to firm up a bit more around the criteria of why people may be refused. And my third question was, there's no inclusion of the specifics for the plaques, so around the size of the plaques or the inscription type on the plaques. Maybe that's something we will want to include to limit lots of different designs and things coming forward and saving people having to go back and redesign.

They were my three questions, which turned into comments. I'll just speak to it. I'm pleased to see— You want

Those answered.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, if someone wants to answer them.

He's got a good memory. Thank you, Through you, Mr Mayor. To the question of whether there are any places off limits, we heard the feedback from councillors that it was more of an enabling policy rather than a highly restrictive policy. It may be for a future iteration or review of the policy that it does come about that there are some areas which are or should be off limits. In consultation with staff, that hasn't been the case to date. I wasn't entirely clear on the question regarding the right of appeal or reasons for refusal. I think we'd probably look for guidance from the chamber and from the public on that. And then the final question is the matter of the inclusion or the guideline on plaques.

That's probably not— or the policy is probably not the place for that. What we can look to in future is have some sort of guideline which guides people in the style, the content, and what is and is not acceptable, both for size and content in terms of plaques.

Thank you for clarifying those things. That would be great. I think this is a really important policy. I was quite disappointed it didn't pass before, and I was a little perplexed why people were so afraid of it and why people didn't want to progress with it at that point. I couldn't understand it. I think just from having travelled quite a bit recently, just so many beautiful examples exist of where people put memorials and the stories that they tell, and the capturing of local characters and things like that. It's such a beautiful thing for a visitor to a place to actually read, as well as the advantage of these sort of things like a bench seat with a plaque being such a lovely place for a family to be able to remember their loved ones and so on.

So I hope the public will give us some feedback around what they want and what they think the idea of having such Such remembrances of people are, I know there's the two categories of where it would be more around individuals or people who have been lost in certain circumstances, and then the larger criteria for really significant people within our community. So I think that the current draft policy has addressed any of those objections that were raised last time. I still don't think we would ever see something that would be a saturation point of having all our parks and gardens filled with memorials, but I think that this policy covers it well to control it, and I agree that, you know, having some guidelines further attached to it with some specifics around what exactly, you know, the style was would be really beneficial.

Any further discussion? Councillor ?

Just a question. How often do the staff think that we're going to review this policy? Is it—I can't, sorry if I've missed it, I did a scan of it, I can't find that.

Through you, Mr Mayor, I'm not too sure. It would probably be on something like a two- to three-year cycle.

Right. It's just that what you said before about this policy being the first for us, it's possibly needing a review earlier than two years, and I was just wondering whether we could put that into the scheme of things, I mean, about that. You know, it might become apparent now we have this policy that there are places that we can actually say, like, you know, just, we've learnt that. So maybe to sort of nip that in the bud so we don't have people being, you know, confused and confronted at the time when they're trying to do something that's very important and at an emotional time for them. So is it pertinent to put a review date of a year? Would that be? I know we have to put it on public exhibition for 28 days, so I just thought I'd put that out there. I'm happy that, I mean, we can bring it up for review, I suppose.

General Manager. Thank you through you, Mr. Mayor. Look, all of our policies are reviewed as a matter of course. What I wouldn't like to do is to specify a one-year time frame on this , because my instinct, and I'm sure the staff feel similar, is that what we will be amending the policy for will be in response to things that we are perhaps dealing with. And I'd hate to kind of confine us and sit here at 12 months and go, no, no, the policy is all good and fit for purpose, if potentially it might not be. So I think that two years might just give us a little bit more of a window there for real life. I don't know if the director of infrastructure's got a different view. That would be my sort of instinct on that, Councillor. No

Thanks for that. That's fair comment, and I understand that. I suppose we have to, I mean, if something drastic happens, we can always bring it back to the chamber without, we don't have to wait two years. Thank you for that. I'm supportive of this policy. I think it's come a long way. As Councillor Lyons-Buckett said, it's a big improvement on the one we had previously, and so that's really great work by the staff. I commend you. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. My only concern here is where we've got, and I guess this problem has come about because we haven't had a policy in place for people to know what they are able to do and not. Where people have gone ahead and erected permanent roadside memorials, I'm concerned about how we're going to manage that because I think that's going to require a high degree of sensitivity. And I can think of two, one on Windsor Road and one on Kermond Road, just off the top of my head, where there's been permanent, where there is now a very obvious permanent memorial with curbing and a plaque and stuff inside it. And I guess I'm not sure how we're going to do this without really upsetting the families involved. This is incredibly sensitive, and now we've got this very fixed policy, I'm not sure what our wriggle room is.

Yeah. General Manager. Yeah,

Thank you. Through you, Mr Mayor. What I would say in response to that is that certainly the Windsor Road one, our community planning and partnerships team have been working very , very closely with all the affected families and parties in relation to that, and have done so very, very sensitively, and have been managing that very carefully with our infrastructure services team. And I have no doubt that their skill and compassion and sensitivity will prevail there as we sort of work with those families, with the affected groups, to ultimately a resolution there.

Any further debated questions?

Councillor Veigel, right of reply.

Not necessary, Mr Mayor. Thank you.

I'll put the motion. All in favour?

It's unanimous. Those against? It's carried. Councillors Zamprogno, Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Creed, Veigel, Regan, Dogramaci, and Sheather.

Thank you.

The next item is 10.5.

The next item is 10.5.2. That item's been taken out of block and there's declarations.

Councillor McMahon.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. My declaration is less than significant, non-pecuniary. The Hawkesbury Fire Control Centre is discussed in this item, and I am a member of the Hawkesbury Communications Brigade. Turnbull Oval is also discussed in this item, and my son plays for the Hawkesbury Hawks. Both have no pecuniary interest, so I'll stay in the vote. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. I have a less than significant non-pecuniary interest in item 10.5.2. I'm a member of the Communications Brigade of the New South Wales RFS, and my son is a member of the Wilberforce Brigade, New South Wales RFS. The involvement doesn't meet the threshold for significance.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Kotlash, do you have your light on?

Sorry, yeah, reflection off the jacket apparently. Do we have a mover for item 10.5.3, the draft— sorry, 10.5.1. There we are. 10.5.2, the Capital Project Report.

I'll move that

Thank you, Councillor Kotlash

Councillor Reardon.

Yes, I'll second it.

Discussion.

Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I think it's always good for this item to be called up to really draw attention to the amount of capital works being done so that the community can see that there is a trail of what works are being done and that there's a regular update of that as we requested. One thing I was really happy to see and saw it firsthand was the positive enhancements from the Dharugan Centre art gallery light upgrades. It has just made the biggest difference to the gallery, just having that proper lighting in there. It just makes the place so magnificent, which it is anyway. And I think it’s good to see the works that have been completed, and as everybody would sort of know, they get various feedback when something’s completed that people might not necessarily put publicly or even send into the council, but certain things about people being pleased about the completion of Packer Road, et cetera, various things that I’ve received.

I did have a few questions, if I may, and I know I’ve asked this one before, and for the life of me I can’t remember the answer, but why is the Francis and West Market Street traffic calming on hold? I know there’s a reason. I can’t remember what it is.

Through you, Mr Mayor, there are two primary reasons for that. Firstly is that we’re following the de-scoping involved with the removal of the roundabout when negotiating that with the contractor and funding body to make sure that there’s sufficient budget for the remaining scope and the benefit-cost ratio remains there. The second is that Sydney Water, with their Richmond wastewater realignment that they’re undertaking, are coming through that corridor, and their works are due to commence, or they have commenced, in some parts of the LGA. And so we’re reluctant to go in and put new infrastructure only for it to be ripped up within weeks by Sydney Water, of course.

Thank you. That significantly jogged my memory. The next question is, and I’m just—I’m not sure if I’ve read this correctly, but why is it only now that we’ve realised that the North Richmond Community Centre WISER project would be a regionally significant development, given that we’ve known from the start what the value of the works would be? That that has both caused delays but also caused further delays, and it sounds like the changes that have been made may be accommodating for that, which is really good to know, especially if the centre can continue to operate. But is— I mean, is this likely to be something that we'll come up with other projects? Because other projects are, some of them are quite large sums of money.

So have we looked at anything that will be triggered into another development application space, and what likely delays are there going to be with the North Richmond one? Can you tell us, please?

Through you, Mr Mayor. The issue, I think, was more that the development of the plan, the delays with the signing of the deeds and so forth put a time pressure on the — and you'll have to forgive me, I've forgotten the name of the grant program — but the recovery grant funding. And that the time associated with that significant development approval process was one of those areas where we could claw back some of that time. So I don't think it was so much that it was suddenly a surprise out of the blue, but that with a crunching timeline, the window for that development approval process was one that was, I suppose, available to claw back some of that time. There are some other projects that we're looking at which we hope will fall into the Part 5 assessment pathway.

There may be some nuances with those that mean that they have to go down the Part 4 program. That will only become apparent as we get into a more detailed design. But that's the substantive reasoning for that issue with the North Richmond Community Centre.

Thank you. So if there's some uncertainty, though, about the development pathway, does that mean we could be exposed to further studies or further costs being incurred for things that are required for if it's a Part 4 rather than a Part 5 assessment?

My recollection of it is that we've generally assumed that it's a Part 4, so I probably didn't frame it quite right. Generally, we've assumed quite a lengthy development approval process or timeframe, but we do always review for the opportunity to push it down a Part 5, an REF, review of environmental factors approval pathway

Thank you. And sorry, just the last question is that several of the projects have been extended out to 2027, I see as the deadline. Have we got a way of gauging the potential cost escalation for that lengthened time in that I gather there's not really much we can do ahead to save any money further down the track. So at what point will we be able to say with some sort of certainty what the additional costs may be for those specific projects?

Through you, Mr Mayor, that will depend very much on each project on a case-by-case basis, keeping in mind that generally cost escalation is something that kicks in at the commencement of a construction contract, not at the tail end. Those projects which have pushed out to 2027 are generally the larger ones, such as the pool, the community centre, which have that extended construction timeframe. So although it sounds like a long way away, that's the completion of the contract, the commissioning and handover of the asset. It's not necessarily expected that escalation and inflationary pressures would have an impact or a bearing up until that point. They would really kind of be frozen in time at the awarding of the contract. Okay,

Thank you. So they're just fixed price contracts that we get. It's just a whole. Okay, thank you.

Councillor Ryan. Yeah, just a question in relation to the grant for the Rick Creek cycleway bridge. It says here it was unsuccessful. What impact will that have on our council rate funds? Will that be taken from our funds or will we be reapplying for it? I've got a couple of questions on these.

Yep. So there's no proposal to fund the Shortfall in the Rickaby's Creek project from Council's general revenue at this point in time. We're continuing with the concept designs and detailed designs. If you recall, the concept design for the shared path bridge was presented to Council at the last meeting and endorsed. There are future grant opportunities. We're aware of another potential grant opportunity coming through from the State Government for active transport, and we're certainly at every opportunity drawing the attention of State Government to this corridor, considering that they've identified it themselves as a regionally significant, I think the wording is, corridor for the Western Sydney Parklands Active Transport Plan.

And just one more here on stage two of the Windsor Mall at Fitzgerald Street. It says here that provisions have been made in the budget for 25-26 for funding the project with Council's own funds for the completion, which extends beyond the June 25 grant deadline. Are we likely to have incur any expenses with this one, or are we looking like we will meet the target before the grant funding runs dry?

Through you, Mr Mayor, look, with the benefit of, I think we're about three days in, everything's on track at the moment. It is a very, very tight construction time frame. Weather may have an impact. If everything goes well, then the contractor has certainly demonstrated how they can meet that time frame. It's probably too early for me to give any sort of indication or reliable indication of— The likelihood, let alone the quantum, of what may leak into next financial year and which Council would have to fund. Councillor

Veigel. Thank you, Mr Mayor. Just a question. Greens Road, is that the north side of it or the south side where you come to seal? What about that, if you could just ask.

Through you, Mr Mayor, my recollection is that it is from the end of the seal, as you come around from the bridge to Knowe towards Juniors,

Through that section there. But I can certainly get the from and to for you and pass that on.

Yeah, no, thank you. I thought—I was a bit worried it might have been the S-bend going northbound, which is a bit tight anyway on the northern side. No, okay, that's fine. Thank you.

Any further

Debate? Just for information from page 21 to the back of the document, the printed information there is pretty hard to read. I've spoke to the staff. It's done by the computer. They're going to revisit to see that it can be in a different format and much easier to read. Any further?

Councillor Kotlash.

Not necessary, thank you.

I'll put the motion. All those in favour?

Those against? It's unanimous. The motion is supported. Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Creed, Veigel, Reardon, Dogramaci and Sheather.

10.5.3, the draft litter.

10.5.3, the draft litter prevention plan. Yep.

Councilor Creed?

I’ve

Got a couple of questions . Avan, I’ve just got a couple of questions

Second.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Just a couple of questions through you to the staff. On page 190 in the business paper, can I just ask what type of bins are we looking at getting? Old bins to be replaced with nice bins. I’ve got concerns with some of the bins that some council areas have been using when they’ve been replacing the old ones, and they actually can trap animals in, whether they’re native animals and that. We’re not going to look at using them, are we

Through you, Mr Mayor, look, we’ve actually done quite a detailed business case around what bins we want to replace based on the use of that. What we’ve done is our consultant, who is a bin expert, has worked through which bins are actually best to ensure that, you know, we’re not going to get litter flying back out and we’re going to avoid animals being trapped, et cetera. So we’ve got the best business case for us to move forward around the procurement of those bins that we actually need in those particular sites. Okay,

Thank you. The next question is in the attachment, Attachment 1. Sorry, I’ve just lost it. Oh, here we are. Targeting litter behaviours, 5.6 on page 42. We talk about party-related litter such as balloons and confetti. We're going to be running an education program on how to dispose of them properly. We're not looking at trying to ban all of these things, are we?

I just want that — like, we're not actually trying to ban these items. We're trying to educate residents on how to dispose of them properly.

Yes, through you, Mr. Mayor, that's correct. It's really about how to dispose of those items. We just want to work with our community to have fun in these spaces, but not banning them, correct.

Thank you. Next question. On page 109, increasing bulky waste service to reduce the amount of dumping. At the moment, we have one free kerbside clean-up per financial year, and if residents want an additional one, they have to pay a set fee. In neighbouring councils and other councils across New South Wales, they have more than one to try and help with the kerbside clean-up. So they usually — Blacktown has four a year. I think Blue Mountains has got two or three, plus a kerbside chipping service. Is there a reason why we only just do one? Is there a possibility that we could do two per year?

Through you, Mr. Mayor, I know this is quite contentious within the community. So Blacktown actually offers 12. That's one per month . They are quite high. Look, we are very fortunate in our community that we actually have a waste facility that no other council area pretty much in Sydney has. There is a significant cost per each of these clean-ups, and that's probably reflected in the size of our community and LGA and the spread of our community. You know, Blacktown has, you know, what is 125,000 single-unit dwellings in a very small area, and we've got, what, 25,000 spread over a large area. So the cost for us, for a collection... is substantially higher than that of Blacktown as well. So that's the reason. Also, the other reason is that we've found that there's only around 25% of our residents use a kerbside cleanup each year. So that's currently our stats on what we're getting.

So just on that response, given that only 25% of households use the annual service, would you not—I mean, to be quite frank, I don't see us advertising that that often to our residents. And if there is only 25% of households that are using it at this stage, would there not be a way that we could increase it to, say, once every six months? Given that there's only a small portion that actually uses the service at this stage. Sorry, I just—I get asked these questions all the time, so I'm just trying to... yeah

Through you, Mr Mayor , in short, it's all possible. The risk that we run is that we open it up with the message that there's a second free service, and in a short time the funding that's allocated for those collections are exhausted. The expectation is there of two free services, and we have to increase our domestic waste charge to fund that. At the end of the day, the idea of a free service is not quite correct. It's paid for by residents through their domestic waste charge. We can offer 12, but it will cost. That's a decision for this chamber, and it's a balance that has to be struck considering all of the matters that the manager for resource recovery has outlined. But particularly, and I want to come back to the fact that we are one of the few councils in Sydney, if not the only one in Greater Sydney, that has a landfill where you can dispose of a number of items free of charge.

And other items for an advertised fee. So, in short, anything's possible, but it all costs, and that's the balance that we have to strike. No,

Thank you. Yes, you don't need to tell me. I've spent the last five months saying there's no such thing as a free service. Someone has to pay. My— and you say that we are one of the only council areas that offer people being able to drop stuff off for free. But the problem is, what happens if they can't get it there? Then we go back to this dumping of illegal household items in bushland and all that sort of stuff, and then that incurs a cost on ratepayers, given I would assume that we don't have a lot in that budget for— I'm just trying to get, because we get asked this all the time, and I just want it on the record why we can't do certain things that other councils do . Through you

Mr Mayor there's quite a complex behavioural issue behind illegal dumping. If somebody is able to get their waste into a trailer and out to a remote location, I don't see that going to the tip is an impediment. The cost is something that, in part, we have to charge. So everything that comes through the waste facility which doesn't otherwise go out, we have to pay the waste levy on. That's, I think, $170 a tonne. We have no choice but to charge that . And once again— Come back to the fact that we could only charge that, but we would have to recoup the balance of the operational costs through the domestic waste charge, which every resident has to pay, whether they utilise the landfill or not. No , thank you. I just wanted it on. Thanks.

Councillor Kotlash.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. And just following on from that discussion that we've just had, it always perplexes me that in the yearly, the cleanup, people throw out things that to me isn't waste. It's something that might still be functional, but they just don't want. So if it's not broken or, you know , for the bin, I guess.

To my mind, we should be discouraging people from having that mindset that if they just put it out, order their cleanup, it will just disappear and they won't have to deal with it. I think people have to figure out how to deal with things that they no longer want that are still functional, that isn't waste. Like that's, you know, I remember actually, years and years ago, we tried to get kind of a version of the tip shop.

In my youth, when I was at uni, I used to have quite a few trips to Tempy Tip. I mean, Tempy Tip was just the place you went to get your essential needs, your chairs, your furniture. I mean, it was completely fine. I mean, everything, people would just bring things and you just — I mean, you have to pay for them. So it just makes me think, do we do research on what actually people put out in these cleanups? I mean, is this really waste? Is it? Sorry, that's a tricky question. Through

You, Mr Mayor. So we receive reports around tonnages. Often that is broken up into the types of materials, if we can, but it will be a basic breakup. So steel, other bits and pieces. But we don't , you know, we don't get a breakdown that was, you know, mum and dad had 15 chairs and two tables and something like that

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Question. Is the business infrastructure business case something that we'll see? I see it's an internal document, but is that something that the councillors will see? And what might its sort of content be around? Is this around bin replacement, et cetera

Through you, Mr Mayor. No, it's an operational business case in terms of looking at the location of the existing bins, the labour required to empty them due to size, whether they can house a wheelie bin or a cradle bin, that sort of thing. So it is an operational business case

So given that being the case, that's good. But I've still got my concern, which I know I've raised before, which is around areas that may be perceived, when people go and look at them, that they're not a high litter area, and yet actually they are. And the reason they don't look like a high litter area is because local people pick it all up, but then local people at the same time are crying out for a bin, particularly around some of the shopping precincts where the litter is being picked up and put into shop owners' bins. And this is a sort of situation that could turn volatile at some point because sometimes it's a lot of— and also people who are putting their own rubbish in people's bins, they shouldn't be putting it in a public bin, but they're putting it in a private bin as well.

So what is the mechanism? How often? I know you've done sort of a big audit of where the bins all should be, but how often is that looked at? And how can we convince you to put some in a couple of locations as suggested?

Through you, Mr. Mayor. In terms of the frequency of audits, I think this is probably the first kind of large-scale one that we're looking at doing. I can't provide a timeframe on when the next one will be, and I'm not too sure how to solve the wicked problem of putting a bin when there's no observable litter there. I acknowledge that it is a difficult one. Of course, I would say that while the community is looking after itself, that's a positive, and— That allows us to deploy resources where it's probably more needed, either by virtue of the volume of litter that's being dumped or because there isn't such a supportive community that's looking after their local area.

Thank you, and I do applaud the people within the community who do take it upon themselves to go around and pick up the litter, of which we know there are many, some who do it at an extensive level . I also thank the diligent person who did the submission regarding this because they raised a number of things which I think were particularly good. Another one which was mentioned there and which we all are contacted about, and that's regarding car parks. And my question is, we own several ourselves, which I think, you know, constantly need — the North Richmond one at the back of Coles, whatever that one's called — needs constant attention. But can we have a sterner approach to the ones that are in private hands but are really quite problematic? What is the compliance threshold with regard to what we can do about enforcing certain areas to keep their car park clean?

They're all looking at us. Look, you're taking my mind back on the regulatory provisions there. I suspect it's actually probably fairly limited unless you've got a public health outcome. I think that's the threshold where it might be harbouring vermin or creating some other hazard to public health, Mary. Okay, thank you for

That. Sorry, just a couple of other questions. Can we, well this is a request. Can we please put somewhere really quite significant on top of the constant request for more curbside pickups, which usually go hand in hand with people telling us Blacktown have 12 and that our rates are the highest in the universe. As well as that, there are constant questions about disposal of mattresses and whether they can be included in those pickups, whether you can just have a mattress picked up, what the cost of a mattress. Now people put it on Facebook and you'll have everything from it's free to it's $90 or you can take it here or you can do there. And I start going to look for the information. I have to say, I didn't easily find it, but could we—it's, I don't know what people are doing with mattresses in the Hawkesbury, but there's a lot going out.

So could we please have some information around that ?

Through you, Mr Mayor, our team's actually done a fantastic job with doing a very detailed waste guide, which does actually have about different disposal options within our LGA. So it is correct that you can book a separate cleanup for only a mattress. Those prices do change based on our contract. We do have the drop-off facility at our waste facility, but there is a cost associated with that, and that's part of our cost recovery. So we're currently in a contract with Soft Landing, I think is what they were called, where they go and do recover the mattresses and that kind of thing. I will say that that's put in context with commercial, which are normally charged around $100 plus to drop it off. So from memory, I think Blacktown Waste Services are around about $100 a mattress. Okay,

Thank you very much. And the last question that I had, or one of the last ones I had, was regarding—it says in the draft litter for people to report to the EPA, that is about dumping, bigger dumping, isn't it ? Is the EPA and the RID app the same thing? I haven't had time to check because then we got a media release saying that people should report to the RID.

Through you, Mr Mayor, there's two different types. So with the EPA, there is the chance to report litterers, and that is mainly through a vehicle. So obviously they, you know, if you do see someone throwing a cigarette out of a vehicle, you're able to report to them. The other one is the RID, which we've— Mine's standing now part of, which is the report illegal dumping, which does have the EPA's number on that. That report then comes back through to us, and our regulatory team deals with that

Thank you. And my very last thing is , are we doing a separate thing around illegal dumping specifically? I think we said we were, in which case the point I was about to raise, I would do then. Are we doing a separate—this is a litter, what's its name, litter prevention plan. Are we doing a dumping prevention plan?

So that's correct. This is the litter prevention plan. We're working internally with other key stakeholders, including with our regulatory services, around how we can better look at illegal dumping. The main challenge for us is funding, and we're working through what funding opportunities are available to us as an organisation, and then progress from there. Because remember that this strategy was actually funded through the NSW EPA. So if there are opportunities, that then we'll certainly work with internally around what that can mean for our teams. Okay.

Thank you. I look forward to that one. Thank you.

Thank you. Councillors, excuse me, just be mindful this is a litter prevention program, and the funds available are going to be about cigarette butts and McDonald's and the likes that have been dropped about, while the things that have been asked about are pretty important. This is about a process we're going to have funding for to reduce litter, and so with our garbage concerns and the likes, while they're important, it's probably not the right to.. . To make a big deal of them. Councillor Feigel.

Yeah, thanks, Mr Mayor. Look, just really a question. The shopping trolleys within the shopping precinct seem to have a mind of their own. For some reason, you get a shopping trolley about three kilometres away from shopping centres. Are we going to find the shopping centres to keep them off the street? Right , because I can go within two kilometres of Richmond, right, and I can count up around about a dozen shopping trolleys at any one time. So are we or aren't we? Because one of the pet hates of many in the community is finding the shopping trolley where it shouldn't be. I

Vaguely remember, Councillor, bringing it up the same issue.

Thank you through you, Mr Mayor. Look, we can impound shopping trolleys. To my recollection, we don't actually directly receive any such reports. It's certainly not to say anecdotally that that doesn't exist, and it's not experience in the local government area, but it's not a request that makes its way through to the team.

So if I report it to you, you'll go and pick them up, impound them and charge the supermarkets $100 a trolley

Through you, Mr Mayor. Look, typically we have a fairly good and collegiate relationship with our various shopping centre providers across a number of issues that include parking, pedestrian access, cleanliness in and around car parks, and in such instances that they are reported shopping trolleys, we'd certainly endeavour to work with the providers in the first instance.

Councillor Reardon.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I was very pleased to see that we're involved in the Clean Up Australia campaign this year. I had quite a lot of involvement coordinating that when I was a councillor on the Hills Council, and it definitely makes a difference. And I think the ongoing effect of that, people are more aware of the rubbish, so I think it's a great initiative.

Thank you, Councillor Marche

Yes, thank you, Mr Mayor. Question to Infrastructure Department. The areas where people dump their mattresses and that sort of things, do we have some kind of like specific areas where people are continuously dumping to those areas or different areas

Through you, Mr Mayor, that's a question for City Planning. We certainly do have known hot spots where the team is actually looking, now that we are a member of Rid Online, to install signage. We also have fixed cameras that we're looking to install at a number of locations where they are quite visible, and it's our intention to publicise where they are.

So, have we installed cameras yet, or are we going to

That's a project for next financial year. Okay,

Thank you

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Wheeler

Thanks, Mr Mayor. I'll drift very briefly to dumping. The curbside collection comparisons with Blacktown are, neglect to mention that Blacktown hasn't had green waste in the whole time that we have. So Blacktown is about to introduce a green waste collection in July 2025 for the first time, and that's to meet its FOGO obligation. So it will be combined FOGO and green waste. So that's actually why Blacktown has all those pickups, is because people have to use them to get rid of their green waste. In the Hawkesbury, you get a bin every week. The volume is probably comparable, actually, if it's just vegetation that you're getting rid of. And that's covered in the bill that hits people's rates.

If people want to offset the cost of a second pickup, they can always reduce their bin size to a smaller bin, and that then gives them a reduction in their rates that they could spend on a second pickup if they wanted to. I did raise the possibility of a second pickup on the last term of council when we renegotiated the waste contract, and because the uptake is so low, only a quarter of households, it was thought that we would be having—people would be—there was an increased cost, and so people would be subsidising other people's waste collection. So we're really at the closest to a user-pay system I think we can probably get. What I would like to consider down the track, though, when we discuss dumping, is perhaps a one-off mattress pickup, like a mattress amnesty.

You know, get your grotty mattress out of your garage, get it on the verge and let's get rid of it. So, and then there is at least no excuse for leaving it in the bush. I'd love to see, as Councillor Kotlash mentioned, an expanded tip shop. Lithgow has an amazing tip shop. It's open nearly every day. Everything in it's free, and it's got its own Facebook page. If you're a waste nerd, you might want to follow their Facebook page. There's all sorts of stuff you can get from Lithgow tip shop. Winter Karabee has another fantastic facility that's run by the Challenge Foundation, their Moss Vale tip, another really big and active tip shop. I think we are going to have to have a conversation about the cost of the tip.

For that doesn't. And we know why it costs. No one's, we're all cognisant of the fact that we pay the EPA three million dollars a year in waste levies that comes directly out of our ratepayers' pockets. But I think there's probably room for a discussion around a voucher system for people who simply can't afford a trip to the tip. But I don't think that they're the people who are leaving their stuff in the bush. The people who are dumping illegally are people who can't be bothered doing the right thing. And so I don't think we should confuse those with people who simply can't access the tip. Back to litter, does this strategy include getting more recycling bins in public places? So more co-located bins, general waste and recycling?

Because I think there's a messaging issue. If we're expecting people to recycle at home, if we're wanting to reduce landfill, and yet they're just presented with a single bin when they've got to dispose of their, you know, lunch wrappers or whatever.

Thank you through you, Mr Mayor. It's a very good question, and it is a bit of a complicated one. Our experience is that the recycled bins, the public recycling bins, generally are highly contaminated. That generally leads to most of the load, if not all of the load, being condemned. That's added cost. Our first priority really should be to get articles that don't belong in the environment in a bin, any bin. That's the approach we're taking, is to really focus on just getting litter, no matter what type, into a bin . Let's get that behaviour embedded, and then in future iterations we can focus on the reintroduction of recycling, public recycling bins. But I do couch that with some warning that it's the minute that a general waste bin is full or looks full or is inconveniently located, the next bin will do no matter the colour.

Thank you. That makes perfect sense. Hopefully our little maggots will be able to sort that out further down the track. And then a second question. This is obviously the strategy. The next thing, though, is us funding where the rubber hits the road and us funding the infrastructure on the ground. Where are we up to with that? And do we need to have another discussion about putting money in the pot to make that happen?

Through you, Mr Mayor, we've actually, I can probably say this officially, is that we've been successful with that $400,000 funding, which is fantastic. So that is over a three-year period, and that funds a litter prevention officer. But that also does come with infrastructure in terms of litter bins as well too. And part of this business case strategy has allowed us then to work out which ones we can actually focus on in terms of bin replacements, high trafficable parks, those kinds of things. So that's certainly a great step for us to be able to have that funding. Great,

Thank you. Two more quick things. The charity bins that are in place in some of our car parks, one of those sites is particularly problematic. Could we reconsider the siting of the bin? It's the one in the Coles car park at Richmond. It's now a different provider, but the problem seems to be the location, which is tucked over to the side under several trees in the dark, and that makes it really easy. I watched a couple, and I couldn't get— I was in the car park by myself at 11 o'clock at night, and I didn't feel like I could take a sneaky photo, and so I didn't. But they just dumped bags and bags and bags of stuff. And in fact, they didn't have it all in bags, and they were not quite shovelling, but they were scooping it out of the back of their car, and yeah, and that blows everywhere.

So that bin really needs to be located to a much more obvious spot in the car park where it's lit and people are driving past, much less likely to behave badly, I think, when you think that someone might spot you. It's been a problem in the past. I've reported it several times for clean up. And then the final question: these recommendations, are we putting these into place in Windsor Mall as we roll out the works there?

Through you,

Mr Mayor. Yes, we're continuing with the bin rollout that's already occurred. That's kind of the extent of the touchpoint that this has with the litter strategy.

Thanks.

Thank you, Councillor . Councillor [unclear]. Thank you

Mr Mayor. Just a quick question I forgot to ask regarding that videos and warning signs. Those warning signs, are they part of rules, regulations, and what do we have to put on them? Like, you are being watched, or don't dump fine, and where? Like, you know,

A

Few kilometres, a few hundred metres before the dumping site.

How

Do we organise that? I mean, it's like when we see driving along saying that, you know, your speed is being watched, or people slow down and they take off again. And if we put these signs before those hot spots, as you mentioned... They want dump, and maybe they'll drive X amount of kilometres and dump it there. So what do we do? Who makes the decision? Or is it possible that not to warn them at all and fine them?

Thank

You

Councillor

Thank you. Through you, Mr Mayor. Look, certainly in some cases there will be standard signage, but I'll take that on notice and come back with the official signage that'll be put up and distance from cameras. And the

Reason I'm asking that is , like I said, you know, they will not dump and they will drive to somewhere else and dump it there as well . I don't know rules and regulations, you know, being so nice and so kind in Australia, warning them, you know, not to dump their materials. Next, we may have to say that 200 metres along the road, you know, on that traffic pole, there's a video.

See yourself on TV.

Okay, I'll await your reply then, please. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor.

Any further debate?

Councillor Crude. Thanks, Mr Mayor. I think this is good. Well done to staff. I just want to— something that Councillor Willer raised about the 25 percent, and if we did it, we could end up, other residents would end up subsidising, you know, a service that they're not benefiting from. I have to point out that not everybody gets a green bin service, and so they're subsidising those people that do get the service. So we do need to sort of look at that, but I do take her point that not everybody will be using it. Otherwise, well done to the staff. I think this is good. We're heading down the right path and, yep, happy with it . Thank you, Councillor. I put the motion. Those in favour?

Those against? It's unanimous, carried. Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor [unclear], Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Creed, Veigel, Regan, Docomacci and Sheever. The motion's carried.

The next item is 11.1. Councillor Wheeler is it, and Councillor Djuric, you

Declared. Mr Mayor, I've got a less than significant non-pecuniary interest in the matter, in that I'm a customer of a tenant who uses the building mentioned in item 11.1.1, and I'm going to stay in the meeting. Thanks. Thank you, Councillor.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. I have a pecuniary interest in item 11.1.1 in that my home is included in the slab barn study and the potential heritage items project, so I'll leave the meeting.

Thank you, Councillor.

I'll move the minutes, Mr Mayor.

Councillor Lyons-Buckett

A seconder was Councillor Kotlash.

Any discussion?

Not necessary. I think they're straightforward. I hope everyone reads them.

Thank you.

Okay, any further discussion?

You don't need a right of reply, Councillor. No thanks. Put the motion. Those in favour?

Against? Carried. Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Ryan, Councillor Djuric, Councillor McMahon, Councillor Creed—sorry, Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Reardon, Councillor Dogramaci and Councillor Sheather. Councillor Creed was absent and Councillor Wheeler was out of the room. Okay

The motion is carried.

The motion is carried.

Councillor Kotlash, your motion is 12.1.1.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'll second that, Mr Mayor.

Who was that? Councillor

Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you.

You mean I can't take two deep breaths?

All yours.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I don't know whether I'm mega observant or I'm just a weed head, but in my travels around a weed head— no, I won't. Yes, I'd better take that back.

Or I am very interested in weeds, but as I have been, you know, driving around and walking around the LGA, it's just become really apparent that vine weeds are taking off with a vengeance, and it's something that I've just— I've been noticing it for a few months now, well , probably over six months. And I think it's time that we ask HRCC, as our control authority, to use their expertise to put together a plan for us to tackle this problem. Because one of the things about this problem is that it won't go away if we don't do something. We have to actually manage these vines. It's very rare, almost impossible, that you have an infestation of a mature tree and the vine just dies. I mean, that's actually— Yep.

Unless we're in a really severe drought, in that situation, what happens is the tree dies as well because it's had the life sucked out of it by the vine. So it's one of those instances where we really do have to do something. So, look, this is pretty straightforward. I did want to add not necessarily a point three, but a sentence that's attached to the motion, which is that Council be informed of the outcomes of these two requests because, you know, I just, I think we need to follow it up, and that's something that I neglected to do in the formal writing of the motion.

Council slides bucket? Yeah. Yes.

Yeah, thanks

And the other thing that I think is making the management of these weeds difficult is that they're quite often along roadsides that, you know, quite often get neglected for all sorts of reasons. They're definitely in our creeks and our waterways. They're in Crown land, they're in our land, they're in private property. It's, they're just all over the place. So because HRCC is our control authority and they have a

Nil tenure view of where weeds are, I think they're in a good position to be able to do this plan for us, or not for us, but it will be their plan. But having produced this plan, then HRCC will be able to guide and direct us, and guide and direct other agencies, guide and direct private property owners, community groups, and whoever else is noticing this. So, yeah, so it's pretty straightforward. The second point of the motion is important because I think that, I think because of the things I've just said, weeds are the responsibility of the owners of the land to control those weeds, not necessarily to identify them. But I think everybody needs to know where these weeds are. And I think that , I think publishing the results of inspections on public land is wise. So I think everybody knows the extent of— Oh, shh.

No, no, that's all right, fine.

It'll take me probably a minute to stop speaking. When you get over it, you'll have a minute, yeah. We're certainly louder than it was normally. Sorry, it was just me.

Anyway , moving along. So I think that's a really important thing, that we share that information. And likewise, you know, we need to share the information that we're getting from all of our vegetation mapping as well, which I'm sure we're doing. So that's it. That's as weighty as that gets. I hope— I hope this will be seen as a positive move. I really do think we're at the stage where we really do have to do something quite drastic, and I look forward to your support.

Round two. Someone got

A

New gong Thanks, Councillor Kotlash. I'll just make comment. When I read the motion of Councillor Kotlash, I contacted the CEO of the County Council to see how big the problem was, and it needs addressing. And he asked me to pass on his thanks for the motion, any support the County Council can get in relation to funding and support from organisations, especially the ones that are involved with the County Council, he's very appreciative of. So while it's not as bad as some of the other projects that they've dealt with, it's certainly something that needs addressing. It's mainly close to urban or roadside stuff. It hasn't necessarily moved down some of our streams and waterways, which seem to be the main. But he said if it's left undealt with, that it's going to be a major problem. So he asked me to pass on—

Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'm happy to second this motion and support it completely because I think this is a really good request. I think the photos that Councillor Kotlash has provided show the extent, and also the different ways that when we look around that we see these sort of vine weeds. And I know that they are very prolific. For example, Little Wianey Creek has got a lot of issues in the riparian area there. There was some great work done by the Hawkesbury Rainforest Network in the late 1990s, which we participated in on our property, and that had a really methodical sort of long-term way of looking at how to manage it. And the value of that was that they had mapped, and I don't know if that mapping is still available, but they had mapped, you know, where they were doing it, and I can't find that information now.

It's a long time ago. But they assisted people on private property to deal with the weeds, and they themselves carried out the work on public land. So, for example, they had done where the water filling station is at Kurrajong, and they'd eliminated it, and of course it's all back. Because the trouble is, I think, with these weeds is that unless you have an orchestrated, methodical approach, you can clear a whole area and the next thing it's back. I do appreciate HEN sending us an email today and pointing out that education is an important part of this, and I understand Councillor Kotlash's response that this is more about getting the plan in place. But I do think, and I would hope that the River County Council would do this, would be to educate people, because I know just from having been involved in that process, the things I learned I have never forgotten.

So, for example, if you're slashing your paddocks, which many farmers and people are out doing , don't slash cat's claw creeper, because it'll just come back with a vengeance. And little things, so to be able to know that though, you have to know what these weeds look like. Now we all know what the balloon vine is because it's so prolific and it's so prominent, but people may not know these other weeds that are mentioned. But as soon as you know, you can be conscious, even just in your own little domain, to not do anything like disturbing the soil around it, which could disperse them more. Or the thing that the Rainforest Network had done, I remember, was they identified the points where the weeds were going into the, you know, like the creek line, the points where there were entry points of weed.

So, of course, dispersing along the waterway and becoming a much bigger problem for us. So I think there's a lot of valuable information that can be learned around this whole exercise, and I'm pleased to know the River County Council are already working on it or prepared to work on it, because it is such a shame to see. I mean, obviously it is a rapidly spreading weed up into the trees. When you cross the North Richmond Bridge, you can see it everywhere. But I think this is a good start to get on, and I hope that there will be some form of education program in assistance, not necessarily from us in our thing, but from the River County Council, so we know what weeds we're talking about. Thank you.

Thanks, Councillor. Councillor Brogner.

Thank you. I'm very happy to support this. I drive past many of those areas myself, and I see the infestation of those vines and the way that they're strangling the trees, and it makes my heart break. And it is frustrating when some of these species are not on the priority list as defined in the Biosecurity Act. I'd make a couple of points, drawing on my now receding memory of being on the board and being the chair. The existence of a species being on the priority list is a negotiable thing. So I'll cite as an example castor oil plant. I think we've all noticed an enormous

Spike of castor oil plant, especially where soils have been disturbed along creeks and riverbanks after the floods. Castor oil plant is on the list, but it's not a priority species. But then if you go over to Murray LLS, it is defined as a regional priority. So clearly there is some scope where there's need to bring things in as a regional priority focus, but then that requires funding. So I'm wondering whether you'd indulge me, Mr Mayor, to ask the mover, is it your intention to develop a plan for more activity? Within our current spend with HRCC, or to put together a plan that might require an additional spend.

Councillor.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Through you to Councillor Zamprogno, that's a good question, and that's one of the reasons why I brought this motion, is because we'll never have enough resources to tackle this problem. We could spend millions and millions and millions of dollars. It's just a big problem that we'll never be able to eradicate . We have to learn to manage those weeds within our resources, within the resources we've got. That's why I sort of thought—I didn't actually know, so I went back to my database that I developed of all the things that HRCC had been working on, and that's why I did that, because we have to be mindful of spending resources on species that won't make a difference. And we have to be very strategic about how we plan this.

We have to pick areas, and we have to stick to those areas and fix those instead of this scattergun approach of just responding to maybe complaints or the odd, you know, I've seen a tree with weeds on it. That's not how we should do this. That's not strategic enough.

Thank you, Councillor.

So I guess what I'm saying is that we're not going to get any more money, but we have to have a strategic plan to work within the resources that we have now. Well,

Thank you for answering my question. I'll continue with my remarks I think we can do more within our current spend, and I am aware that the CEO of the HACC always welcomes precisely this kind of feedback from member councils about areas of need, so that they know that they're providing customer satisfaction. The distinction between public and private lands is something we could reflect on a little more. Two projects that I was very proud of in my time on HRCC were the Blue Mountains Shale Cap Forest Project back in 2020, so at that point, you know, beginning to recover from the fires, and it engaged with over 400 private property owners who we observed are, you know, generally incredibly hungry to be good stewards of their land, and often all they need is that guidance from an agency like council or the county council to know how they can manage.

So if it's the case of, you know, many of these balloon vines and so forth, don't slash them. Clearly they need other strategies, possibly including poisoning, but they need that guidance. I'd be all at sea, you know, even though I wanted to be a good steward of my land. So where we say to develop a standalone plan, you can see why I'm bringing this up in the chamber to get some guidance so that when staff go off to execute this for us, are we talking about something that's going to come back with a request for more funding? Is it going to be something It's going to explicitly seek to engage private property owners where it may be much of the problem exists, and what resources and support are we going to be giving those people to address those problems on their land.

Well, I'm glad that we're able to discuss this now. And I might say, in closing, it's very heartening to hear the good councillor lifting up the capacity and scope and knowledgeability of the HRC.

Thank you. Question to Councillor Wheeler, you're now the chair. Some time back, they used to have a little booklet that gave you a diagram of the particular item they spoke about and set as category on how it is. Do you know whether the County Council still provide that information?

I don't know what they give to people. Do you mean when someone's had an inspection and— No

It's actually a booklet. If someone had concern about things on their property, there was— it wasn't a very big booklet, but it had descriptive both photographs and information about the product.

I think that information is largely online now. Yeah. Yeah.

Are you talking about the publication called Garden Escapes?

No, this was just a document the County Council put out some years ago for information that was in this region or this locality. I

Can certainly ask if there's plans to republish. I think often paper copies of things like that are helpful. Okay

Thank you. Any further discussion?

Thanks, Mr Mayor. I'm happy to support this motion. I have discussed it with HRCC's general manager, who offers some ways forward with some of these questions. HRCC is aware of the issue of vine weeds. It's a huge problem, and it's actually a problem that's got worse since the floods. And so some of the areas that had previously been cleaned up, largely by Landcare and bushcare groups, have now been recontaminated, and things have got really out of hand. The area along Buttsworth Creek, the side of the LGA that I frequent, the area around Buttsworth Creek looks similar to—well, actually it looks worse than some of Councillor Kotlash's photos from around Kurrajong and Bowen Mountain. I know that area around Bowen Mountain is really badly impacted.

HEN ran a long-term project on Cat's claw creeper around Bowen Mountain and were making inroads, but like all weed management, as soon as you take your eye off it, as soon as the active work stops, they're back up again. There's this saying in land management: one year's seeds, seven years weeds. And that's actually very optimistic. In the case of some species, like cassias, it's one year's seeds and seventy years weeds. These things are weeds for a reason. They're incredibly hardy, and the Hawkesbury has all the things that make it a weed hotspot. It has a warm and wet climate, it has very fertile soil, and it has disturbance, and early disturbance in the early days of the colony, and that's one of the reasons why we are so heavily impacted by weeds.

That's being exacerbated by climate change. The warmer and wetter climate means that it's much more— Weed production is much better, and we've seen that in the change from the drought, where we're actually making some inroads into weed management, to now flooding and much warmer, wetter years. The fact that we've lost our frosts means that things like Mediravine are no longer wiped out over the winter, giving bush regenerators some time to catch up. So it's on all the time, unfortunately. Councillor Zampronio's point about these not being listed weeds, there is a workaround for that. I'm advised by HRCC's general manager that Schedule 3 of the Threatened Species Conservation Act lists many of our dominant vine weeds, for example Mediravine, asparagus fern, balloon vine, all the ivies, all the morning glories, cat's claw, potato vine.

So we can use that, actually, to act on these weeds without needing them to be listed as priority weeds. Mr Dewhurst suggests that we could look to the New South Wales Environment Trust for funding once we have some more data and can move on. HRCC is currently developing its operational plan and is building more capacity in the program to tackle widespread weeds, which includes vine weeds. And the photographs that are provided in the notice of motion have been added to HRCC's works program. HRCC also does rely on member councils notifying, but I take Councillor Kotlash's point that that reactive strategy needs to be balanced with a considered program. One of the things that HRCC is particularly keen to look at is this multi-agency approach.

We often have issues with working on Transport for New South Wales land. HRCC isn't the control authority on that land. It's often quite difficult to access. But there's a possibility of liaising. I know that there's a, if you go to local government conferences, there's an app where if someone's digging up the road for the NBN or for water or something, the other agencies are informed that activity is on there. If we could get the RMS to tell us when they're closing a piece of road for something, and we could get work crews into them to do some weed management as well, that would be really helpful. Just getting access to some of this land would be really helpful. The fact that these are so very widespread, these vine weeds makes control very difficult, and it takes really long-term management.

It's not a set-and-forget thing . There is an interesting roadside, high conservation roadside scheme that Penrith Council uses that Hawkesbury could probably look at as well, which has some potential. I'll stop there, but I think there's certainly plenty more that we can discuss around this.

Thank you, Councillor.

Thank you, Mr Mayor I'd just like to say that I'm very supportive of this. I had 22 years as a conservation and land manager. I worked all over the Hawkesbury and the Hills, and it does take four years to stabilise any of these sites, so it's an ongoing battle.

Thanks, Councillor. Any further debate? Councillor Kightlash, right of reply.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. Thank you everyone for that really great discussion. A couple of points that I'd like to make, though, is that when we go about requesting what we sort of would like HRCC to do, I think we have to be really careful not to say we want them to work on the weeds , for instance, as Councillor Willa said, the weeds in the photos that I offered up. I don't want them to go and control those weeds. That would be a waste of their time because it's not integrated into a bigger plan of how that will, you know, how that will make the whole of the landscape better. Treating a tree with a vine on it is not the way that we need to go about this, and that's why I've asked for this strategic plan.

Those weeds in those photos should not be put on the works project, the works schedule. No, that's not, that's the whole point of this motion. I think we need to accept that we are going to lose trees. I think we have to accept that we have to decide where the trees that we lose are. That's really what this boils down to. We only have the resources probably to protect koala habitat or other endangered habitats, and I don't know who does this first. Is that the role of HRCC to advise us of how they should, you know, how they figure out where to weed and where to do their controls, and where, for instance, where they do their inspections if it comes to that. So I don't know who makes this first move, and I suppose this is my attempt to do that.

We could tell HRCC of all of the areas that we have around our LGA in terms of a priority that we'd like them to work on and have sort of zones, as Councillor Lyons-Buckett was talking about. The reason that the rainfall— what was their name? I know the work, yeah. The reason they were successful was that they had a zone and they had a plan. It was strategic. They went back. They didn't just rush in and, you know, well, we've got to cut this all off. They did it slowly, and I know that's a hard thing to do in restoration ecology, but you have to do it that way. You have to. It's about education, and it's about mapping, you know. That's why I put point two. I really would love to see, you know, some mapping about how the extent of this problem.

Then we can talk about resources and going to different levels of government to try and get some more support. So, you know, and one of the things about the Biosecurity Act that I'll just point out that I think is worth noting is that even if a plant is not on a priority weed list, if that plant is doing harm. To human health, agriculture, the environment,

Even a built asset, maybe not so much in the Biosecurity Act, but that weed can be determined as needing to be dealt with. And that Act has a mechanism for that to happen in a regulatory way. So it doesn't matter if it's not on the list or anything. And I think we have to come to grips with that, that

We have to pick our weeds, we have to pick our areas, and we have to be strategic and patient and mindful

That we're not going to solve this problem in its entirety. And we'll probably have to be happy with being successful in some areas and be glad that we actually got our act together, because if we don't, we will have nothing to show for the resources that we put into weed management. We can't keep going and doing a bit here and a bit there and a bit, you know, we need to start to get strategic. I'll leave it at that. I think that's a really good outcome, and I will be really looking forward to seeing what we can come up with as a collective, because the Biosecurity Act does say that weed management is the responsibility of everyone.

Thank you, Councillor. Excuse me, the motion— As is the notice of motion with part two, the council be informed of the outcome of the above request. Those in favour?

Against? Carried this unanimous. It's Councillor Sandberg, Wheeler, Lyons, Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Carey, Vigel, Regan, Dogramachi and Sheehan.

Councillor Dogramachi abstained. Okay. I

Couldn't

See you lift the hand.

I couldn't see you left the half. So , 14.1.1, response to Council's request, we don't need a motion.

16.3.1, that's, these are matters that need to be dealt with in confidential.

Would someone like to move?

Councillor Buckett, Councillor Djuric . Those in favour? Against? Carried. Do you need them read out?

Thank you, Mr Mayor. In regards to item 16.3.1, compulsory lease of part of Hanna Park, 45 Beaumont Avenue, North Richmond, by Transport for New South Wales. Whilst in closed session, the Council resolved on the motion of Councillor Creed, seconded by Councillor Reardon, 1 . That Council agree to enter into a lease agreement with Transport for New South Wales for part of 45 Beaumont Avenue, North Richmond, known as lots 31 and 32 in DP 841742, in accordance with the proposal outlined in the report. 2. Council raise no objections to Transport for New South Wales compulsory releasing an area in the order of 13,280 square metres, lot 31 DP 841742, and 25, 490 square metres in lot 2, interposeded plan 841742, within 45 Beaumont Avenue, North Richmond, under the terms outlined in the report.

3. Council consent to the lease of the land by Transport for New South Wales referred to in part 2 by compulsory lease acquisition process, including agreeing that in accordance with sections 29 and 30 of the Land Acquisition Just Terms Compensation Act 1991, that the pre-acquisition procedures will not apply as an agreement has been reached. 4. Authority be given for any documentation in association with the report to be executed under the seal of Council. 5. Details of Council's resolution be conveyed to Transport for New South Wales together with the advice that Council is not and will not be bound by the terms of its resolution until such time as appropriate documentation to put the resolution into effect has been agreed to and executed by all parties.

For the motion were Councillors Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Creed, Veigel, Reardon, Dogramaci and Sheather. Councillors Zamprogno was absent for the vote.

In respect of item 16.3.2, acquisition of part of 2 Harkness Road, Oakville, whilst in closed session, Council resolved on the motion of Councillor Creed, seconded by Councillor Reardon: one, that Council approve the acquisition from Silverstone Project 7 Pty Limited of part of 2 Harkness Road Vineyard, being proposed Lot 3 in DP 131249 , comprising an area of 445.5 square metres for the purposes of a roundabout and road widening, to the amount detailed in this report. Two, authority be given for any documentation in association with this matter to be executed under the seal of Council. Three, Council grant delegation to the General Manager to execute any documents on behalf of the Council associated with the acquisition process which do not require the seal of Council to be affixed.

Four, details of Council's resolution be conveyed to the affected landowner, together with the advice that Council is not and will not be bound by the terms of its resolution until such time as appropriate documentation to put such a resolution into effect has been executed. For the motion were Councillors Zamprogno, Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Creed, Veigel, Reardon, Dogramaci and Sheather. No Councillors were against. In respect of item 16.3.3, easement acquisition, part of 340 Castlereagh Road, Agnes Banks, whilst in closed session, Council resolved on the motion of Councillor Creed, seconded by Councillor Kotlash: one, that the acquisition of an easement of an area in the order of 124.5 square metres within 340 Castlereagh Road, Agnes Banks, Lot 10 DP 1185582, proceed and compensation in the amount detailed in this report be paid to the property owners.

Two, Council bear all costs associated with the process of acquiring the easement within the subject portion of land. Three, authority be given for any documentation in association with this matter to be executed under the seal of Council. And four, details of the resolution to be conveyed to the affected landowners with the advice that Council is not and will not be bound by the terms of its resolution until such time as an appropriate documentation has been put to put such resolution into effect has been agreed to and executed by all the parties. For the motion were Councillors Zamprogno, Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Creed, Veigel, Reardon, Sheather, and Councillor Dogramaci abstained, and it was therefore recorded as being against the motion.

In respect of item 16.4.1, tender T00173, management and operation of the Oasis Aquatic and Fitness Centre. Whilst in closed session, Council resolved on the motion of Councillor Creed, seconded by Councillor Reardon, that Council: one, the tender submitted by Y NSW for the management and operation of the Oasis Aquatic and Fitness Centre for a ten-year period with an additional two by five years in Council's favour, maximum 20 years, be endorsed. Two, authority be given for any documentation relating to this matter to be executed under the seal of Council. Three, details of Council's resolution be conveyed to Y NSW together with the advice that Council is not and will not be bound by the terms of its resolution until such time as the appropriate legal documentation to put such resolution into effect has been agreed to and executed by all parties.

And four, the unsuccessful tenderers be advised of the outcome of this tender and thanked for their submissions. For the motion were Councillors Zamprogno, Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Creed, Veigel, Reardon, Dogramaci and Sheather. Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

Thank you, General Manager. That concludes the meeting tonight, Councillors. Thanks for your attendance. Good night.