19 June 2025 - Ordinary

It was in relation to Councillor McMahon attending via audio link. Can we get the speakers any louder?

We need a mover for Councillor Bredin's apologies. Councillor Vagan, Councillor Creed. All those in favour?

Against? Carried.

There's only one agenda item this evening. It's the notice of motion.

We have six speakers. We've got four and against. I hope that's not the case, but that's how they're recorded. And

The first speaker is Varia Peacock. If you could come to the dais there, please. You have five minutes, and there'll be a buzzer at four minutes

Mr Mayor, I'd like to announce I've got an interest in the matter. I've got a significant non-pecuniary interest in the matter, and I'll be leaving the meeting. Thank you, Councillor Dureck. Will I announce what that matter— Yes. The interest is that I'm a financial member of an organisation that operates out of the showground, so I'm not staying. Thanks, Councillor.

Can you hear me up the back?

Mr Mayor, Councillors, thank you very much for the opportunity to speak this evening. My name is Verena Peacock. I'm the CEO of Equestrian New South Wales, which is the state's sporting organisation for equestrian. We have 9,000 members across our state and , as you might be able to tell from the room, the highest density of equestrian New South Wales members live in the Hawkesbury.

I am in support of the motion put forward tonight regarding the Clarendon Dressage Grounds, and it's a decision that Claries great significance for our sport, the community and the region. For over 35 years, Clarendon has been the home of dressage in New South Wales, welcoming riders from across Greater Sydney and the state. It has hosted state championships, Olympic selection events and grassroots competitions. Riders who train and compete here range in age from as young as eight, because that's the youngest you compete in dressage, to well into their seventies, and I have heard older. Some just starting their equestrian journey, others returning later in life. Notably, over 90% of our equestrian members are female.

This is one of the very few mainstream sports where women and girls are in the majority and where they can continue to participate throughout their lives. Clarendon is one of only two permanent public dressage venues in Greater Sydney. The other, SIAC at Horsley Park, is heavily booked and often cost prohibitive for small clubs. Clarendon fills this gap, offering accessible, affordable facilities to grassroots, para-equestrian, amateur and professional riders. If this site is lost, there is really no viable alternative. The consequence will be fewer events, declining participation and lost opportunities, particularly for women and girls in Western Sydney. This is Crown land, held for public benefit.

Since 2019, over $565,000 in taxpayer-funded grants has been invested into Clarendon, upgrading arenas, stabling, roads, fencing, amenities and more. To see those facilities demolished would not only waste public money, it would erase decades of work by our community. And let me be clear: even if we could find new land to build something similar, the replacement cost for a venue like this would probably be in the vicinity of $10 million. It's irreplaceable, practically and financially. The Crown Lands Office has confirmed that the existing equestrian use aligns with the purpose of the reserve and that any removal of the arenas would require ministerial consent and development approval. This is not a decision to be made lightly.

The community deserves better than to see public infrastructure dismantled.

Equestrian New South Wales stands ready to work with Council and HDAA on a sustainable, inclusive management model. We're prepared to step in as lessee or manager, or whatever role is seen fit, ensuring fair and open access. Our vision includes broader community use by pony clubs, inter-school competitions, adult riders, breed shows, and the continued use by HDAA for their annual show. This is a win-win solution: more users, better outcomes, stronger community value for the grounds. Beyond sport, Clarendon brings real economic benefits to the Hawkesbury. Each event draws riders, families, volunteers and officials who spend on accommodation, dining, fuel, groceries and local services. It's probably no accident that there's at least four horse tack shops in the immediate vicinity of Clarendon.

Those are dollars that stay in the Hawkesbury. I draw your attention to Tamworth. ALEC, owned and run by the Tamworth City Council, generates over $20 million a year in economic activity for Tamworth. Clarendon may be smaller, but the principle holds. Support equestrian sport, support the local community. Councillors, this is more than a paddock or summer arenas. It's about protecting a legacy and ensuring future opportunity. Clarendon is a cornerstone of our sport and a vital resource for riders, families, and businesses in the region. On behalf of our members, many of whom are here, and the 3,000-plus people who signed the petition, I urge you to support the motion. Let's protect this public asset, honour the investment already made, and work together on a constructive solution, be it a new lease, a licence, or a management arrangement that keeps this venue alive, active, and accessible.

Thank you. Equestrian New South Wales stands ready to assist in any way we can to maintain the facility.

Thank you. Are you happy to answer any questions?

You're not supposed to clap.

No, I would prefer not to. Thanks. Sorry , Nez. Are you prepared to answer some questions? Absolutely. Any questions, councillor

Thank you for your address in council, Mr. Plecock. How many events do you hold a year, and how many people do you have attending these events?

Specifically at Clarendon?

Yes.

So, in the past, the current licence restricted the use of the venue to 36 days per year. So, we don't know how great the final number would be, but it would certainly be more than 36 days. I would expect at least two to three events there per month. We can accommodate 120 dressage tests per day in those arenas in winter, about 150 in summer, and the competitions are usually multi-day. We have also in the past joined forces with Hawkesbury Riding Club next door on a Saturday when they're not using those arenas sometimes to expand the competitions to be greater than that.

Just a couple of other questions , if you don't mind. Have at any stage out at Hawkesbury, have you used portable arenas to facilitate? Because I've made some inquiries, I won't be shy about that, and I know there's probably, there's five levels involved in this sport. What levels require the sand underlay for it, and what levels do not?

All competition is better on sand arenas. Those arenas that are there are comparable— I was trying to think of an analogy for a non-horse person. You know of synthetic hockey fields?

Yes.

And you understand the importance of something like a synthetic hockey field to hockey. If I was to say, rip up your synthetic hockey field and go play on the grass over there, that would be the similar comparison to equestrians trying to ride dressage on a grass arena versus not. We make do, and grass arenas can be done for very low levels, but it doesn't provide the same performance for horses. And I guess the one thing that you may not be aware of is even though a horse may be doing a low level, it may be a baby horse that's destined to go higher. And we don't want them to be injured on a rough grass surface. Having said that, a lot of dressage is ridden on grass arenas and has been done at Clarendon before.

The HGA don't tend to like it because dressage people ride the same pattern over and over again and tends to create tracks in the grass.

Thank you for that.

In relation to this area, I did an inspection today of it. It's a rather large area that takes up a considerable amount of the showground, and as the mayor did say, it's landlocked within that area. And there are stables there, and you said you got $565,000 for grants. If these, from what I understand, it's only the three arenas that are under question at the moment, near the main arena, not the two that are over the back that are sand arenas.

My understanding is it's the three main sand arenas, the warm-up and the lunging arena.

I was led to believe it was only the three sand arenas that were separate to one side. If there has to be a compromise made in relation to this, what would be your thoughts on the best situation in relation to grass arenas? Because it was expressed to me that they would like to have other purposes, and I'm here. Through it, my ratepayers, so I have to get the best value for all our ratepayers, and I would like to see this be able to be used for probably more than one reason. Are you people open to having it used with portable arenas , without the sand-based arenas?

We would be happy to add grass arenas to the sand arenas, but the destruction of those arenas would be not in the best interest of the sport.

Yeah, that wasn't my question. My question was, the existing three sand arenas that we are speaking about, would it be suitable to have them into grassed arenas?

And if not, why not?

I probably need to get into the technical discussions of

Surfaces. Yeah, I'll make for that.

Oh, that's quite a technical discussion, sorry. So best practice surfaces are sand and fabric mix, although there's a bit of varying opinion on that. All Olympic disciplines, and I'd have to defer to people who know a bit more about this than me, but all Olympic disciplines above a certain level, I think it's medium, need to be conducted on sand. So you'd be restricting competition to lower-level dressage .

But we do still have the higher-level dressage in the other two arenas that are towards the back.

No, they're warm-up arenas, sorry, and they're not suitable for competition.

Well, I appear to have the ABC and that sort of thing around them. They are just simply there for warm-up.

They are there for warm-up,

Yes. So what would be the problem with bringing them up to a standard where they could be used for the higher two levels? And then being able to share these other ones with other members of the public for other activities when they are not being used by dressage.

The location is unsuitable from a judging perspective. I know that when Hawkesbury's run events at times, they have used one of the back arenas as an additional arena. But fundamentally, you're still asking for the destruction of infrastructure to make that happen.

Okay, look, thank you for your answers. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Any other questions?

Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Thank you, Verena. Just in fairness to you, I did send through an amended motion that I'll be moving later this afternoon. I'm sorry if it hasn't reached you. I did send a copy to Mr Oliver and to the HDAA, just to reflect the fact that HDAA have sent a letter with an offer for you to submit a proposal within 30 days. And in reflection of that, I have amended the motion around no demolition to occur with, you know, at least 60 days from now. Nothing happen until you can engage in that process. I just wanted you to be aware of that while you were up there in case you wanted to make a comment on that so that it's fair for you to know. The rest of the motion, I think, is reasonably similar.

Just for your information, requesting — and we can only request, as you understand, we can't direct anyone to do anything — but we're requesting a commitment from HDAA that dressage events will continue at the showground in whatever operational and organisational form is made. So if you wanted to make a comment on if your organisation, as you're the CEO, would be submitting — you don't have to tell me if you are — but if you're... Got a comment on the 60-day time frame that I had put on the motion.

I'm sorry that I didn't receive the motion this afternoon, Mary, but I would be happy to continue, as we have done since last year, to work with HGA to find a solution.

Thank you.

Thanks. Councillor Mr. Sembrad.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you for your address, Verena. I'm trying to kind of anticipate the flow of this debate, so my questions are kind of aimed at where this might go. You indicated the size of your organisation, and one of the questions that might arise , as the Agricultural Association contemplate the value of a new sublease or licence arrangement, is the financial solvency of your organisation, your intent to have money put aside for the maintenance and perhaps even the upgrade of those arenas. Like some other councillors, went out and did my own inspection this week. I spent several hours out there on Tuesday. I noted both the very substantial capital investment, but also the state that they were in and that there was a need of some maintenance and uplift.

So the third part of my question is whether you're prepared to make that commitment, and what length of lease would give your organisation the confidence that that capital investment was worth it? Because one of the options that might be considered is a shorter lease, and I'm wondering how short is too short for you to have that confidence to invest in the site.

That was a lot of questions at once, Nathan

I'm happy to repeat them and lead

You through them. Solvency is not an issue. Our financial records are publicly available on our website, and when we publish this year's financial records, it will be shown that we're very solvent. The question is, New South Wales Board has committed that infrastructure and maintaining infrastructure within New South Wales is one of its core pillars of its strategic plan. So there is a commitment there that we would invest in that. You would appreciate that with the imminent destruction planned, there hasn't been any investment in that site, nor should there have been if it was going to be destroyed. I understand that HDAA have their lease runs for another eight years, so it may be appropriate to align their lease, but I would have to take that on notice and confer with my board.

Are you aware of any dollar figure that's been established about what would need to be spent in the short or medium term?

No, other than the replacement of the fences. We've had some quotes on that, and it's within our means. But

I'll just confirm that you are prepared to make an undertaking on behalf of your organisation to maintain and add to the capital value of that site on public land.

Yes, and we would be able to make use of government grants to assist with that process.

Thank you, Verena.

Councillor Doug Marchi. Thank you, Madam.

As I mentioned previously to some of the people in this room, that I am the least informed about this matter, which is what I think, what I feel is the best way, so I'm not influenced one way or the other. Now, as I always trust and believe in common sense and logic, and thank God that living in Australia, in this democracy, that we do not have to agree in everything.

Like I said, that I'm the least informed about this matter. But since we have 60 days cooling-off period, or whatever it is, to find the common way of sorting, you know, this matter, would you be

Able to form some kind of a two, three, four, five people as panel, and maybe, you know, with some of the more knowledgeable councillors being, like, you know, a mediator or something like that from, and also the same amount of same number of people from the other side, to sit down and discuss all these things in details and to find a common, some kind of a common way of sorting, you know, this. It's costing us time, it's costing you money, it's costing all of us money, and not to mention that, you know, these people are so happy to make more money, solicitors, lawyers, I'm saying that. So during this 60 days time, would you be able to sit down and discuss it in openly, honesty, with integrity and with responsibility? Could you do that?

I think that's the best way to do it, to be perfectly honest, is to sit around a table and talk and work out a way, with your help.

Thank you.

Councillor. Thanks, Mr Mayor. Can you just clarify what you said in the last part of your speech about a lease? What do you mean by the lease? Because there's already a current lease in place. Are you talking about with the HCAA, are you wanting a separate lease for your section?

Because...

I think, as the good councillor spoke here. I

Apologise,

I'll have to practise that one. Happy to work out whatever works best for both parties, whether that's a licence, a lease, a separate lease, a sublease. There are options, I believe.

Yeah, so because council's got a lease with HCAA, so it'd have to be with them, not with us, because we don't have. .. Thank you, I just wanted to clarify that.

Really, the only goal I have is to maintain those arenas here for these people.

Thank you, Verena. Thanks for your time. Our next speaker is Andrea Roth.

My apologies, it was indicated I was fourth on the list. Do you wish to speak fourth? I would like to speak fourth. The email I received indicated that I was speaking fourth. Okay. Andrew fifth and Ross sixth, so has that now changed?

The way— excuse me. The way it's written now, it used to we have speakers for and go down and against. I thought that it might be prudent to have one speak for and one against.

I'm happy to continue to— Thank you.

I'll introduce myself. Good evening, Mayor, Councillors and members of the gallery. Thank you for the opportunity to address you here tonight. My name is Andrea Roth, and I have been the administration and business manager of the Hawkesbury District Agricultural Association for the past seven years. I am one of two paid employees with the association, the other one being our groundsman, David Morgan. My role is to manage the business of the association to ensure profitability to meet the requirements under the association's constitution of maintaining, managing and improving the showground as a community and event facility. The association has over 500 members, including volunteer committees, with 100 members who meet monthly to facilitate activities on the grounds.

These volunteers of the association contribute over 60,000 volunteer hours per year in event staging and keeping the grounds in pristine condition. This equates to 30 full-time staff. This issue surrounding the continuation of dressage arenas was first raised back in August 2022, when Dressage New South Wales contacted HDAA to discuss an early exit strategy of the agreement in place, which is due to expire at the end of this month. Over the past three years, we have worked together in an amicable way to facilitate this exit at the end of the month. During this period, Dressage New South Wales continued to run a number of competitions and training days, however struggled to find volunteers to assist.

This has led to the increased costs of running dressage competitions, as all workers are paid. These competitions have been in slow decline, with just 45 individual riders competing over the three days of the last competition in November 2024. This area is now in a state of disrepair and urgently needs significant financial input to make it safe, not just for the users of dressage, but all visitors to the showground. And it is a single-use facility. There is no other activity that the community can undertake on those grounds. In February this year, HDAA wrote to Equestrian New South Wales, stating HDAA's strong ongoing commitment to providing facilities for all equestrian sports. These include dressage, but also show jumping, pony club, schools breed sporting and harness competitions.

A significant area of the showground will still be made available to host dressage competitions, and under the Equestrian Australia National Dressage Rules, they do not require sand arenas, but merely a level surface. We have two fenced sand arenas and 4.5 hectares of grass main arena capable of accommodating six full-sized dressage arenas. The existing facilities of stables, toilets and other facilities are not in question. HDAA is still waiting for a response from Dressage New South Wales to this proposal. Over the past 12 months, the showground has seen more than 250,000 visitors pass through the gates to attend over 300 events, from tiny homes to medieval winter festivals, dog, cat, bird, rabbit shows, truck fests, swap meets, cross-country carnivals for the local schools, an array of local charity fundraising events, and of course horse events.

The annual show alone puts more than $10 million back into the local economy, which is boosted weekly by all these other events, for people spending money in shops and cafes, local motels and Airbnbs, and pumping additional dollars into local businesses. The plans for the site is to develop a multi-purpose space for the whole community to enjoy, and with future plans for an undercover structure to cater for all-weather events. This would include the ability to run dressage competitions in the area. It is not to be turned into a car park, as has been rumoured by those opposing the redevelopment. HDAA has put forward an offer to place the redevelopment work on hold for a further 30 days to allow Equestrian New South Wales time to present to HDAA a detailed proposal on their plan to manage, maintain and importantly fund the area under a licence agreement.

This reinforces our strong commitment to equestrian activities. The motion as it's been put forward at the moment is asking councillors to place this on hold for 60 days now. We are actually speaking against the motion. Thank you.

Thank you, Andrea. Question , Councillor Justin Brogner. Are you happy to answer questions?

Yes. Thank you, Mr Mayor, and thank you, Andrea, and thank you for being so generous with your time on site earlier this week. The role of this chamber, if it does have one, is partly to safeguard the highest or best use of public land. And when I asked you and your colleagues earlier this week about what your proposals were for that site, instead of merely speaking in negatives, no, it won't be a car park, happy to acknowledge that, but when I asked what alternative use was better than the current use, I would have to say that the response was aspirational. But nebulous and unfunded. So, for the benefit of the room, and if our primary duty is to have a better understanding of what the highest or best use of public land is, could you perhaps articulate for our benefit what that land could or should be used for, in HDAA's opinion?

Yes, certainly. So you would well be aware that in applying for grants, things need to be shovel ready. That if you apply for a grant and you cannot carry out the grant in the time that is set down, then the grant potentially is withdrawn, or you run into overspends. So whilst we have plans that we would like to do, until that land has been restored to its original form, it's very difficult to start applying for grants, and they're not easy to get. We did actually put in for some funding in the West Invest program and were knocked back. And I know Council have received quite a number of those grants and are struggling to actually fulfil the grant requirements. So our ultimate aim— sorry, our initial aim would be to expand our show displays during our annual show.

We're quite cramped for space, and certainly all of those emergency services, the Council exhibition, and... There's lots of other areas that we could expand into there, but currently we don't have the space to do it because, again, it is a single-use facility that can only be used for dressage.

Thank you, Andrea.

Our next speaker is Helen Batson.

You have five minutes, Helen. Thank you.

Mr Mayor Councillors, I speak in support of the motion. Thank you for allowing me to speak tonight's meeting. My name is Helen Batson. I'm a para-equestrian rider currently on the EA High Performance Squad. I'm a local to the area, and I've been a competitor, judge, and volunteer at Clarendon for 35 years. As a prior president of Dressage New South Wales and a treasurer, I have also been involved in the management of the grounds. These are simply not just a set of dressage arenas. These are the home of dressage in New South Wales. Farina has spoken to the rich history of these grounds. Tonight we have several Australian and Olympic representatives and owners of Olympic horses here. That just proves how important this is to our sport.

As a para rider with physical limitations, they are the safest, most accessible grounds in New South Wales. And to answer your question earlier, I do not feel safe on riding on grass at all. Grass is slippery. It's not fit for purpose. We have really valuable horses, and they easily get injured. It is only suitable for very low-level dressage. We acknowledge there's other equestrian facilities nearby. They are fully utilised. Those clubs have 800-plus members and an over two-year waiting list. The fact that there is such a volume of unmet demand in this area, the Hawkesbury, we know from past history that Clarendon attracts a wide rider cohort from around the state, many of whom are watching these proceedings remotely tonight or have travelled a long distance to attend in person.

In 2017, over three and a half thousand dressage tests were ridden at those grounds, which speaks to both the quality of and the demand for the facilities, and that's second only to the number ridden at Sydney International Equestrian Centre. Tonight, we have the president of Hawkesbury Dressage Club somewhere in this room. They would dearly love this home ground for them, but they have been restricted by the terms of the sub-licence to HDAA from using it. And for this year, for the first time in 35 years, there was no dressage held at Hawkesbury Show, and that's despite our arena sitting there available to Hawkesbury Show Society for free. There's a long history of us being at the Clarendon grounds.

Dressage New South Wales moved to those grounds 35 years ago, the same time as HDAA. At that time, we jointly funded that road into the site around the arenas. We jointly funded the purchase and installation of those stables. Dressage New South Wales repaired and fully funded the maintenance of those stables for several decades. We fully funded those three arenas in that main area. We fully funded the two warm-up arenas, which incidentally are not suitable for dressage because you need clear spaces around all sides. They're not the correct shape. They're fully fenced. They're not appropriate for competition arenas. And if we had them as competition arenas, we have nowhere to warm up. In 35 years, we have spent millions of dollars of our members', supporters' and public money on both capital works and maintenance on those grounds.

To be clear, and excluding the area of 25 acres that HDAA lease from the university for car parking, we occupy only 8% of the Clarendon site under a sub-lease to HDAA. For the use of the grounds up to 36 days a year, we pay a significant licence fee of $10,000 per annum plus outgoings. For 25 years, we paid $500, but this was increased by 2,000% 10 years ago when the new sub-lease was negotiated. In addition, we spend approximately $35,000 per year on repairs

And maintenance.

So even though the arenas have barely been used this year, Dressage New South Wales has spent $27,000 mowing, weeding, trimming those arenas. HDAA leases the 92% balance of that site directly from Hawkesbury Council on a peppercorn rent of $20 per annum. On a like-for-like basis, Dressage clearly pays its way, and HDAA often has user groups who overlap in the use of the facilities on the site at the same time as us. We have continued to invest money, hundreds of thousands since 2017, in new arena sides, judges' boxes and topping up the surfaces. In the same time, since 2018, HDAA has been able to access $3.2 million of public grant funding. Of that, a significant amount, nearly $800,000, was spent on the stables, the arena, the fencing and the drainage.

The single biggest user group of those facilities is Dressage New South Wales. Proposed but to be confirmed, the alternate use of the dressage grounds is car parking or a shed. I sat in a meeting with Andrea last September where she admitted to saying that, but only as a joke. Well, I'm sorry, but we don't find this as a joking matter. We appreciate that HDIA love and care for their grounds, but so do we. These arenas are public land. They don't belong to any one user group. They've been developed with money from our members, sponsors, public funds. They're highly prized by our community. We have a petition with 3,000-plus signatures which proves that. We have over 100 supporters here tonight.

You nearly finished there.

One more sentence. Okay. They should be used for the good of the community and the future of our young riders. And on behalf of the whole dressage community, I ask you to support the motion in front of you tonight and give time for the correct due diligence process and good-faith, mutually respectful negotiations to be undertaken. Thank you.

Thank you.

You happy to answer questions? Absolutely. I've got one. The commitment you've had over the years is, excuse me, commendable and very generous. Why did Dressage want to pull out and not look at the negotiation to carry on the efforts?

Sure. Look, Dressage New South Wales as a committee does two things. One, it ran those competitions at Clarendon as a club, and secondly, it administered the sport of dressage in New South Wales. The relatively new committee decided it was too heavy a workload for 12 members, and so they approached HDIA to say they did not want to run the actual competitions anymore, and what were the options. I have a letter from the 10th of November 2022 reflecting a conversation from Mandy Jones to Dressage New South Wales, which said, and at that meeting— Dressage, sorry, on 15th of September. At that date, I also have a note from HDAA saying that if Dressage New South Wales were to continue, want to continue with the early termination date, they would allow other clubs to run it.

If it was proposed that we were intended to go to the full term, HDAA would not renew the license. So even though the sublease at the time allowed HDAA to, or actually required HDAA to negotiate for a further 10-year time, they basically said in September '22 that they would not do that. The response from Dressage New South Wales was, as discussed, Dressage New South Wales has decided to cease running our regular monthly competitions at HDAA. Dressage had always intended to continue using the grounds for other activities, so was unprepared that HDAA would not consider the renewal of the license agreement and would require us to make good, i.e. demolish, the grounds in accordance with the license.

So they were surprised that the demolition of the grounds was going to happen, and we subsequently went to them with a proposal that the grounds get gifted to HDAA for $1, and $100,000 would be put in a trust account to use for fencing and some upgrading work. But HDAA rejected that proposal.

Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, Ms. Batson. At what stage did, when Dressage New South Wales were pulling out, did they ask Equestrian New South Wales to— Like, sort of take over the competitions or anything at that point?

So there was a lot of public pushback from the members of Dressage New South Wales, and so a smaller subcommittee of Dressage New South Wales, of just a few people, took on the running of the competitions after '22 at a reduced level of competition, should I say. So at that point, this, we were, a group of us, a group of people approached Dressage New South Wales and asked if they would continue to approach HDAA and try and negotiate. And they basically said, Well, we can't. They've told us there's no licence agreement. We didn't want to run the competitions anyway. This is going to be very difficult. So we said, If we form a group and find an alternative, can we do it with their blessing and with them being kept fully informed of the whole process, but also with them mindful that they had a lease termination date of the 30th of June and therefore had to work towards that, or should I say sub-licence, and therefore had to work towards that.

They gave us their blessing. In fact, every month they used to ring me and say, Is there any update on it? So we approached HDAA as a group, and they basically said, Well, you have no standing. We don't have a licence with you. You're just a group of riders. We don't know if you have any financial ability to do this. You're not a formed group, so go away. We then couldn't even get a meeting with them, and so we started the petition, which got 3,000 signatures. We subsequently got a meeting; we didn't get very far. So we approached Equestrian New South Wales to come on board because they are our peak state body. They're highly financial. They have the role to run all sports in the state, high performance, and with Office of Sport they have a mandate to make sure that we have appropriate sporting facilities.

We're losing sporting facilities all over the place, and as Verina said, we have two facilities in the Sydney area. With sand arenas at Olympic level. This is 50% of our arenas. If they go, we go to CIAC. There's no availability . There's been one competition for me this year in the first half of the year at CIAC. That's

What I can say. Councillor [unclear].

Thank you. I'm learning about this at a great rate of knots. Where is CIAC?

Sydney International Equestrian Centre, the Olympic venue at Horsley Park.

Horsley Park. Yeah, okay. A lot of dollar values have been thrown around here. You spoke at length about the money that's been invested, I guess for maintenance. Could you help us gain an understanding of if you were starting from bare ground and you wanted to build a facility of the standard that's been grown in that space over time, how much money would that cost?

So if you exclude the land value, because you have to find a site, that's the first thing. I believe, so there's two sets of— well, there's the indoor competition arena and a warm-up arena put in as an ebb and flow arena at CIAC maybe two, five years ago, and that was over $2 million. That's one arena and a warm-up, which is the double size. There's now a proposal to upgrade arenas one and two, and I'm probably speaking out of turn here, but they are looking at about $4 million just to do those two arenas, legacy arenas that have been left in poor condition 25 years after the Olympics that really need upgrading. And, you know, the reality is with these arenas, it's fine to say this is a one-user group.

They have a whole set of arenas at CIAC which get used all week and every weekend, which is why our dressage groups can't get any traction there, because all the breed societies use them, all the jumpers use them, everyone uses the arenas. There is an opportunity to do this at Hawkesbury, but we have been restricted to 36 days, and the sub-licence does not let anyone else use those grounds, and we've requested that and it's been denied in the past.

Thank you. My next question is: is it true to say, or is it your opinion, that when dressage events are occurring on that portion of the land, is that that— That's incompatible with any other event or activity happening elsewhere on the showground, because it has been asserted that at times there have been requests or demands to not have anything else happening when we're running dressage. Could you clarify that for us?

Way back when we first started this 35 years ago, there was an agreement that went for 25 years that dressage would have the sole use of that area. And then there was delegated weeks every month that we could use that. When this new licence was renegotiated 10 years ago, that was not put in. Hence, almost every event, or every event actually that I can remember attending, and I've attended most over the last couple of years, there has been an alternate use. There is almost always a horse show where they use the same parking, the same stables, the same warm-up arenas and the same lunging areas. Hack shows on the main arena. There's been hackney shows. There's been dog shows out the back. There's been a circus tent.

There's actually been, which was a bit of a not a great one, but an advertisement where they had to hoist up a thing on a crane and drop the car off it into an airbag, and we got an announcement two minutes before it was going to drop saying, Get off your horses and hold your horses. It's about to drop. There's always the markets are on. So no, I would not say in any way, shape or form that there is never any other events. There's always other events, and we've also been told at times that we can't have any stables for walking because all the other horse events need it instead of us, even though we funded those stables originally. I

Suppose my question was more around whether there are those alternate uses on what's a very important site, and I'm glad that there's such good utilisation. You all get along despite the fact that there's a climb on the same stables, the same parking, the same amenities. That's a workable arrangement?

It is, and I mean, we do. There's been one event where we asked could some of the show people move up a little bit so we had some parking, and that's something that keeps getting referred back to us, but that was asked for one event, to my knowledge. And they're completely compatible events in 99% of the cases. The car dropping on the airbag might have been a little bit of an issue, but if we disregard that, we at SciAc, multiple events run at the same time. So it's absolutely doable, and we've never said don't do it, and the sub-license allows it. And we've had requests from some of those events saying, Can we use your dressage arenas? because a lot of those hack shows, breed societies do run dressage, and we're not allowed to let them use it.

So they then go and run around the same square on the main arena, which is the same square we got in trouble for from HDAA for putting tracks, and weren't allowed to use it after about 2018. Okay

Thank you. My last question is this. I've read the licence agreement, the one that's about to conclude, and it is true that there is a requirement that at the conclusion of a lease that's not going to be renewed or handed over, the site must be restored back to scratch. It's been suggested that it would cost $100,000 to remove that infrastructure and level the site. I'm innately suspicious of round numbers because it smacks of not really knowing the true number, but is it— Can you say that Dressage New South Wales does not have the resources to pay a $100,000 bill for the cleanup of that site?

No. Dressage New South Wales has put away $200,000 in a separate bank account for that remediation if required. We don't believe it should be required.

So there is money there?

It's sitting in a different account.

All right then. I wasn't aware of that. I'm glad I asked.

Thank you. And they are able to fund that if required, but as I said, we don't believe it's required.

Thank you

Thank you

Helen. I have a question. A few questions. Thank you, Madam. Like I said previously, and the way that I look at it is, it doesn't matter what happened last week or the year before or whenever, you know, they attempted to drop or they dropped the car or whatever. That's gone. When you go to bed tonight, you have a different thought when you wake up in the morning. Things change. Time changes. That's human nature. It happens. What I would like to know is that when did you very first time find out about this, this agreement is going to come before us

The agreement was going to come before Council?

Yes.

I'm going to say in the last week.

Last week.

I think. Last few... Yeah

I think we got confirmation on Monday, did we, that this was going to come to tonight's

Council meeting. Okay. Well before then, then, did you know that it was going to come before the Council? Not last week, but previously

We definitely asked Council to review it. I mean Council is the Crown land manager for this site, and Council has responsibility as the Crown land manager to make sure that this site is utilised in the manner of which the Act, and the Act is for public purpose. Yes And, you know, we have had a lot of discussions with Crown Lands, the Minister's office leading to this, and they've expressed a great degree of surprise that there's any issue here. They feel the arena should be staying. Okay . And I believe that. Have expressed that to Council, Council officers. They've met with HDAA to express the same thing, is what they have told us. Yeah,

The interpretation is a little bit different. Okay , fine. It doesn't matter what they tell us or what they tell the other parties or whatever it is. Could I personally have your word as well, like the good lady behind me, that you are prepared to sit down, have a couple of your people and the other side, and maybe, you know, some of the well-informed councillors, to sit down like mature human beings, to sit down, because there is absolutely nothing in this world that, you know, you have to come head to head. It's not going to get you anywhere. It's going to cost you time and money, anxiety, fight and fight . Will you also prepare, you know, to give me, to give the Council your word that, you know, you are prepared to do that?

Oh, absolutely. I'm just here representing riders, and I would expect that Equestrian New South Wales would work, as Verena said, with integrity and in good faith with the councillors, with a mediator, with HDAA, to come to an arrangement between the two parties. Absolutely.

So you are more than happy to go back to your people, and with that 60 days period, you will be more than happy to sit down and to discuss amicably, you know, to come to something that, you know, every single one of these people will be happy. Yes. All right.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you, Helen

Andrew Scarsborough.

Thank you, Andrew

Good evening, Mayor, Councillors and members of the public. My name is Andrew Scarsbrook, and I was the 2024 HDAA Rural Ambassador. I've also received the 2025 Hawkesbury Council's Young Citizen of the Year Award. With my passion for agriculture matched with my love for community, I'm a strong advocate for the Hawkesbury and the region, and as well as its youth. I'd like to start by thanking you for the opportunity to speak here this evening about something deeply important, not just to our region, but to the future of agriculture and the heart of our community: the Hawkesbury Showground and its importance within our community. The Hawkesbury Showground is more than just a venue. It's a living, breathing hub where traditions, innovations, community spirit come together.

This is why it's crucial that the land be used in a multi-purpose way. For generations, this space has been home to the Hawkesbury District Agricultural Association and the Hawkesbury Show, one of the most iconic and cherished agricultural events within New South Wales. At a time when regional and rural industries are facing significant challenge, we must ensure young people are inspired, educated and supported in agricultural careers as well as within our community. The Showground provides a vital platform for students, young people and future leaders to learn, compete and grow in all different ways. The Hawkesbury Showground also offers a space for community to come together, something that unfortunately has been lost within other communities in the Sydney Basin, but not ours

Sorry. Yeah, it's crucial for the HDAA to keep in mind the whole community needs it in its operation 365 days of the year. The Hawkesbury Showground is not just for agricultural pursuits. It's a space for families to gather, where cultures are celebrated, local talent shine, and where lifelong memories are made. The association's constitution captures this perfectly, with the guiding purpose to manage, maintain and improve the facility as a community and events centre. That mission, more relevant today than ever, in a fast-moving world, people seek connections. They seek belonging. The showground offers that. It is a cornerstone of civic pride and a rare space where all walks of life can come together.

But for all this to work, the showground needs to keep serving our community and our families and our youth with our traditions. We have to ensure the Hawkesbury District Agricultural Association remains financially stable . Financial stability is not just about keeping the lights on. It's about securing the future. It's about ensuring the showground can continue to host events, upgrade facilities and adapt to a changing community needs. It means the agricultural shows of tomorrow will be ever more important than those of today. And this means future generations will have a place where they can go and celebrate what it means to live, work and grow within the Hawkesbury. The Hawkesbury Showground is a legacy.

Let's make sure it's our future. Thank you.

Thank you.

You happy to answer questions,

Andrew ? Councillor Zembrogno. Andrew? Yes . Over here. Hello. Thank you very much for speaking. Thank you, Gallery. Thank you very much for speaking. I'll say at the outset, I don't disagree with a single word that you say but I have to draw your attention to the question that's under discussion tonight. of which you didn't speak a word. Why should the request of the equestrian community to have use of that space be denied? Well

Senator, I believe I did mention that in probably my third paragraph where I said that the space needs to be used holistically as a multipurpose facility. Now, that encompasses the entire showground, and so that space is designated currently to only one discipline of horse event, and we have multiple different disciplines from different events within the Hawkesbury region that come and utilise the space on Hawkesbury Showground.

Councillor. Thank you, Andrew. My question may go along with Nathan's here, but the space being used currently as the dressage arena, if that was to be removed, what do you feel you could really do with that space? Yeah

Councillor, thank you for the question. Sorry, thank you for

That question, Councillor. Like I mentioned earlier, the main key bit from my taking is that it needs to be used as a multipurpose facility. Now, that can mean we can utilise—

I am answering the question, thank you—we can actually use that space for different events. As was mentioned during the Hawkesbury Show, it can be used for the council tent, for our first responders tents. It's expanding the space that we have accessible. It also means that various different competitions can be run throughout the year in that grass area. Now, at no point we are looking to discontinue the use of any Hawkesbury Showground for dressage events. We love having all sorts of events at the showground, and we're encouraging dressage to continue to come there. And, you know, the use of things such as, as you mentioned earlier, Senator, mobile dressage arenas, those things we can work together, and I believe we should be able to come to an amicable decision between both parties as to how we can use the land and the space provided to better the whole community.

Thank you. Just one further question. What benefits to the whole community? I'm just not talking to one single area, because I represent every ratepayer in the Hawkesbury. And to turn this into a multipurpose area, what do you think other people within our ratepayers within our community would use this or could use this for?

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's various— just to touch on a couple. For instance, Governor Phillip Park, Hawkesbury Council, earlier this year, or actually towards the end of last year, I believe it was, ran the council day down there. Food stalls, vendors, local businesses can use it. You know, events like that where we get the community together, like little fetes and little fairs, it's the perfect space for it, being a level ground, a large open area. There's ease of access. You know, it's bringing money back into our community. With events— I'm just using one event here just to keep the time short— but using, you know, the fetes and the fair days that are run by council, as an example, you know, dog agility shows can also utilise it.

Being a grass area, you can have various different sports done there. A lot of school groups use the facilities. That's another area where they could do afternoon school sports. You know, and like I said, hopefully the continued use of that space by different equestrian disciplines.

Thank you. Just one further one that might help you and help me understand it a bit more. And I know you're not a spokesman for the Hawkesbury District Agricultural Association, but if these areas were to be closed down, what other areas do you feel could be provided to dressage community to hold their events? Do we have more space there where this can be done? Because after I looked at it, it's very valuable space there for the show community, for everyone. Do we have the facilities where we can expand this into other areas within the showground?

Yeah, so as you said, it is a very, very valuable parcel of land on that showground. You know, I accept the fact that those warm-up arenas out the back may not meet current guidelines to run a competition in there. But, you know, that's something that I think we need to go from this meeting, sit down with the other parties and discuss how potentially they could be changed and how we can work together to better the facilities that we already have out the back to accommodate for their needs and potentially, you know, get some insight from Council in regards to, you know, for the grants and things like that, that, you know, both parties can work together, because I think that's the way that it needs to happen. Both parties can work together to reach a conclusion that betters everyone.

Thank you, and just one further one, Mr Mayor . This is only the dressage arena. It has nothing to do with the—

Stables or any other facilities. It is just those three areas that are beside the main arena that are going to be under peril, or whatever we want to call it at the moment, redevelopment.

Yes, that is correct. We are only talking about those three dressage arenas next to each other there.

Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thanks, Councillor Ryan. Andrew, thank you very much.

I have a question. Councillor Dogamachi. Thank you. Thank you for coming and your valuable address. You have answered, you know, most of the questions that I was going to ask. One question I have: the area size, can you give me the ratio of what you have and what they have?

Currently, from where I sit within the committee, I could not give you those accurate numbers. I couldn't give you

Actual figures. Why not? I'm not asking your bank account. I wouldn't want— You know the area and how much you have. Is it 10 by 10, 1000 by 1000? I mean... Councillor,

You asked a question, he answered it. There's another speaker that you

Might ask. That's what I'm asking, the ratio.

To answer your question, if I was to make an estimate, and because that's what it is, because I do not have the hard figures, so it would be an approximation. Those arenas, as per standards, are 60 metres long. They're on a slight tilt. So if you line them up, it'd probably be about 75 metres. I'd say the width of it would be about 100 metres wide, and then you're probably looking at there's

Three arenas, 20 wide, at least 10 to 15 metres. I'm going to say you're probably looking at two, 300 metres long.

Okay. What makes that area so valuable?

It's just a—it's a great shared space. It's close to where, you know, for instance, at the Hawkesbury Show, it's where all of our first responders, Council, all our, you know, all of those sorts of people, our SES, the RAF go, and the utilisation of that space for, let's say, just in this discussion, the Hawkesbury Show, could be used to expand that. So we're actually, you know, paying a little bit more space to those different stalls. But that's not the only limiting factor. There are other uses for that land.

Okay, but you do, you confirm that, you know, you are more than happy, you know, to sit down and to discuss as well. Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct, Councillor.

Okay, so we have no problems then. We have 60 days to sit down, and we can sort this thing out.

Yes, more than happy to.

All right, thank you.

Thank you, Andrew.

The next speaker we have is Mr. Geoffrey Oliver.

Thanks, mate.

There'd be a buzzer at four minutes, Geoff.

I only get four, everybody else gets five. No, there's a buzzer

At four minutes. You've got

Five. Oh, okay. Gotcha.

Good evening, everybody. This is an extraordinary general meeting, to say the least, and I'm really pleased to be here. Oh, the mic. Oh, the mic. You think I'd know better, wouldn't you? Anyway, I'm Geoff Oliver. I represent Save Clarendon Group. I'm a member of Equestrian New South Wales, and I've competed at Clarendon. For over 20 years. Clarendon has been the home of Dressage New South Wales

For over 35 years.

Before I launch into my spiel, am I moving too much? There's a couple of things I'd just like to highlight here. And the dressage area is 8% of the 22 acres that currently are the Hawkesbury Showground. The single-use concept fascinates me. Does that mean we should go out and bulldoze all the tennis courts? Because you can only play tennis on a tennis court.

I'm baffled by that. Anyway, and the other point is, a point was made about Dressage New South Wales' lack of volunteers. I think most of them are here, and if they put their hand up, you'll see there's no lack. But I'll leave that alone for now. I thank the Council for bringing this discussion into a public forum. It is truly appreciated. There's some key points to focus on tonight. One, this is public land designated for community use. Two, the grounds and infrastructure are publicly funded assets

Funded by equestrian members' fees and contributions, competition and training revenue, state and federal funding grants, which is taxpayers' money. The grounds and assets are owned by the Crown for the purpose of community use. Hawkesbury City Council is the appointed Crown land manager and has obligations under the Crown Land Management Act to make the grounds available for community use.

Millions of dollars of investment have gone into these grounds to build, develop and maintain the facilities over the past 35 years. We've already said the cost of replacing or replicating these facilities in another location is ballparked at several million dollars. We are not asking for money. We're not asking for investment. And we're not asking for any other contribution. We are simply asking that the grounds be retained for their designated purpose, which is under the Crown Land Act community use . Whether it be for dressage, whether it be for tennis, whether it be for ping pong, whatever. This campaign has been a long road over the last 12 months, with many complexities around both the politics and legalities of the situation.

You've probably got a sense of that already tonight. We have debated relentlessly with Council, Crown Land and the Minister's office. We've sought independent legal advice. And here we are tonight in the chamber of the Crown Land Manager. Let's put all that aside for the moment and consider this. This is not a legal question we're looking at tonight. It's not a political question we're looking at tonight. It matters not if you are Liberal, Labor, independent, or indeed the Mayor.

It's a moral question. It's about the right thing to do.

A moral question based on the fact that this is publicly funded infrastructure on public land. Who , who, I ask, has the right to roll in and bulldoze it to the detriment of the community? It defies all logic and all reason. We are asking tonight to put a motion to halt any demolition work and grant a three-month time period, which has been reduced to two months, for all parties to undertake due diligence, due consideration of this matter, and seek an outcome that serves the community's purpose. This is an entirely reasonable request. Councillors, when you cast your vote tonight, please be mindful that this is not a political issue, nor is it a legal issue, but a moral issue. And I urge you to make a conscience vote, support the motion, and deliver the community's wishes. Thank you for your time and consideration. And I may the bell

Thank you, Mr

Questions require answers

Not allowed. Is there any

Questions?

Councillor Bygott.

Yeah, g'day. Yeah, g'day, Jeff. Paul. G'day, Paul. How are you? Look, the dressage arenas, I presume the sand ones in particular?

Yes.

Every one that I've ever seen has been undercover. Is that correct?

No. No, no, no. Dressage arenas can be undercover if you've got enough money. Yeah, I was just going to say —

No, it's okay. You've answered it, because it was just a couple of questions. No, thank you.

Come on, guys. I'm ready. I'm ready. Fire, fire. Come on. Councillor Quirke

Thanks, Mr Mayor. Thanks, Geoff. I just want to touch on your speech where you talked about tonight's notice of motion. You do understand the notice of motion that's now going to be put before us is not enforceable. It is a request from councillors to the HDAA. We don't actually—we're not going to be able to enforce.

I understand that. No, I understand that this motion is part of the beginning of the negotiation process. Shall we call it that?

Yes. So I just want to make it clear that however it goes tonight, you're understanding that councillors and Council cannot actually enforce. We can request, but we cannot enforce it in the current legal terms that we're faced with as councillors. Look

As I said, there are many legal complexities around this issue, and we could be here for a couple of hours tonight debating that. But I did a call with three of our councillors yesterday afternoon with the area manager director from the Department of Crown Land. He spelled out and made it abundantly clear what council's rights and authority are under the Crown Land Act. Now, it's probably not appropriate for me to repeat what was said in that meeting, but I do know that Mary, Danielle and Nathan heard that clearly and they understand. Whether they would want to upset the apple cart to the point to take that level of action is up to Council. It's not up to us. So we're in a position where we're more than willing to negotiate.

But we want to negotiate with reason, good management and unbelievable governance, because it will be required. And I, my expectation is that Council would be involved in that. We will not leave this meeting and be hung out to dry. Thank you , Jeff .

Mr Mayor, I have a question . Councillor Zanpro. I'm ambitious. I know that the motion before us is simply to make requests, and Councillor agreed is quite correct, and to implore. But I'm looking beyond this to a point where there's an acceptable resolution. So I'm going to ask the same question of you as I'm going to ask Ross when he comes through. In your opinion, what is the criteria against which a successful proposal or application for a renewed licence will be judged against? In other words, I want everybody to be on the same page about what those criteria are, and if those criteria are met, then it would be perverse to withhold assent to a renewed agreement. So I'm asking you now, and I'll ask Ross next, what do you think those criteria should be?

A renewed lease? Yes. I think the lease term is critical. I think it's got to run in sync with the current lease that HGA has, which expires in 2034, which gives us eight years. It can't go beyond that because it would expire at the same time anyway, so that's irrelevant. I think a

New lease arrangement. Are you asking this as a sublease of HGAA or a direct lease with Council? Which issue are we talking about?

I'm open to which of those solutions occurs, but for the sake of this conversation, we could imagine that it would be a renewal of the kind of licence agreement that New South Wales Dressage have enjoyed for some years.

Right. Okay. Well, I would require—I think we would require it to be a sublease, not a sub-licence, because a sublease has much more standing when you're trying to get grant money, et cetera, et cetera. The eight-year term also supports applying successfully for grant money. Five years is too short. The amount of money that has to be invested, you have to have a reasonable tenure to be able to utilise the value of that grant or that grant money. There would need to be governance around the management because Council is the Crown land manager. Council would have to be involved in probably quarterly meetings between Equestrian New South Wales and HGAA around the issues that we've talked about tonight, because we don't want to step on HGAA's toes and not them be allowed to run an event when we're running an event.

The common-sense way is share your schedules, talk about what you've got on and work forward three or four months ahead so that everybody can get what they want out of the use of the grounds. There's no need for it to be exclusive. There never has been. It was just unfortunate that Dressage New South Wales and HGAA got into the situation they got into and never actually sat down and talked to one another. So sitting down, to your point, sitting down and talking to one another, negotiating, putting a management team together that provides the appropriate management and governance between the two parties is the— Most common sense way to do

This. If I could add just a couple of points to that list, do you think that that agreement would also include a formal agreement about the use of shared facilities, amenities, parking, stables, and so forth? It would include those? It

Would need to.

Absolutely. It would include a commitment to spend a quantum of money on the maintenance, upkeep and improvement of the capital in that space?

Oh yeah, look, absolutely. But look, I'm amused by that because it costs $50,000 a year in maintenance already, and Dressage New South Wales has been paying that forever. There's all these questions around, can they afford to maintain it? If you went down there, and you did, and so did I last week, and I took photos in case we saw different things, but I'm sure we didn't. The grounds are immaculate. The arenas could be ridden on tomorrow. The judges' boxes are perfect . It's just such a wasted facility.

I'm only itemising that list because that's in anticipation that the proposal that is going to be forthcoming from Equestrian New South Wales will include and address all of those issues. Absolutely. Wonderful, thank you.

Very experienced in working on those grounds and know what the requirements are, so yes. Thank you, Councillor.

Thank you, Geoffrey. More questions? Eddie. Yes

Yes, Eddie, I will.

That's okay. Yeah, we heard from Verina, Andrea, Helen, Andrew, and you are the fifth one. Now it seems that we are getting somewhere. Will you give us your word that, you know, you would also be part of the panel from your side to sit down and discuss like grown-up individuals so we don't have to waste our time and money? If they let me. It doesn't matter if they let me. Will you? I will. Okay.

I shall. I will. Thanks, Eddie.

Our last speaker is Mr. Ross Matheson.

Well, can everyone hear me? Good evening, everyone. I would like to thank the mayor and the councillors for allowing us to speak here tonight at such an important meeting. I'd just like to say to start with, I came along with a bit of a speech written out, and I think the gist of what some of the speakers have said have made a little bit change the direction of it and a little bit more aggressive. I'd just like to start off with where I was originally and kick this in, and we'll try and get through and then add a few extras. I'm Ross Matheson, briefly. I've been involved in the Hawkesbury District Agriculture Association for many years. When I was born, my grandfather, my great-uncle were on the association.

My dad joined soon after. My mum followed, and I've been there now on the association for 50 years. During that time, I've been heavily involved with the development and overall management of the showground, having held positions including two terms as president, vice president, long-term member, BMC committee. In 2019, I was honoured to be awarded by the local community the Hawkesbury Citizen of the Year. Tonight, I'm here, though, representing the members and the committee of the HCA. Hawkesbury District Agricultural Association was formed in the early 1880s and has been a significant part of the Hawkesbury community ever since, initially running their activities in conjunction with the Hawkesbury Trotting and Racecourse.

During the 1980s, the HDA made the big move to the other side of Racecourse Road and the development of the current grounds commenced . Previously at the old ground, we ran the show. Others ran the racehorses, ran the trots. We changed grounds and became a multi-operational 365-day diverse operation for the community. Development of new grounds started and came to fruition through extremely dedicated, hardworking volunteers and committee and the generous support of the local community and businesses. We didn't walk in there with barrelfuls of government money. Over the years, we've built a range of infrastructure for the various ground activities: exhibition buildings, cattle, poultry displays, dog arenas, grandstands, roads, arenas, whatever else.

Our infrastructure was built from many and varied resources and using funds generated by HDA, certainly not funded by the council, as many of the local people seem to think.

When any construction or improvements have been carried out, we've always used 100% wherever we could, local businesses where possible, and when we were lucky enough to get the recent COVID stimulus money, the furthest any contractor came from was Riverston. All through the years, we've worked strongly along with local clubs and service agencies , including the Rotary Clubs, Lions Club, RFS brigades. We've had long-term relationships with a wide range of groups and quarry towns, hot rods, antique machinery, dog clubs, Axeman's Association, arts societies and John Ambler's, plus various cattle, poultry and horse groups. HDAA and the ongoing Hawkesbury Equestrian Centre have also worked together for many years, sharing out.

They utilise our stables and camping facilities and the road access during showtime. HDAA have always worked practical through the diversity of the operation, multi-use of our facilities, made our grounds and facilities available and supported the local community in times of need. During the Christmas bushfires in the 2000s, recent Gospers Mountain fire disasters, our showground became refuge for various animals and people for lengthy periods of time. During floods, we've taken, although we're not a flood evacuation centre, we've taken lots of animals from the lower lands that flood. Our pavilions have been used extensively as well for charity collection points.

I'd just like to divert off a fraction now in relation to what has been discussed here tonight. We did, once we were aware of this request of this meeting, HDAA did send a letter through to the Mayor and the Councillors, saying that we're prepared to give 30 days for the groups to substantiate what the claims are and how this can be run. Up till now, all our arrangements, all our discussions have basically come from The people we have the lease with, which is Dressage New South Wales. In that letter on the 22nd of August, the third paragraph down says, We would like to discuss changing the date of termination of the current licence to a date earlier than the 30th of June 2025, and we would negotiate in good faith to reach a position that is acceptable to both parties.

It's Dressage New South Wales that we're dealing with. They're the ones we've got the contract with, and we have not had any substantiated offers from other organisations. Thanks,

Mr. Master.

Can I just finish off one last thing because I got those extra bits, if you don't mind. I'd just like to say in wrapping up

That

Just got to get around the page— just in wrapping up, with 150 years of history, HDA, association initially, primarily ran an annual show. We've progressed to having a multifunctional venue operating every day of the year. With minimal financial support from 11 governments, we have developed an extremely diverse and multifunctional venue. As our previous speaker has covered, the hirers and users are many and varied and bring a large amount of dollars to our local economy. At this point I would like to thank Hawkesbury City Council for the support over the years. I ask at this point then, I ask that the councillors and the community take a look at what HDA have achieved and respect the decisions of the past and present committees of the HDA, and support their actions moving forward and vote against this motion.

We have put on the table an offer for 30 days to rediscuss it openly. Thank you, Mr. Smith.

Any questions? Councillor. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, and thank you, Ross. Since you're standing there, I want to take the opportunity now to thank you for your years of dedicated and voluntary service to the HDAA, you and all the others, to Lyn and to Andrea and even to Ken. I mean, you've all done such a sterling job. I'm having trouble squaring a statement that you've just made, which is that you have not received any substantiated offer from another organisation to take up the management of that site. And there's correspondence here listed in our business paper from the HDAA back in March that said, We will not enter into any licence or lease agreement over the site with any equestrian group. If you've not received any offer, I'm curious about how you can be in the position to confidently assert that you could not enter into an arrangement with any equestrian group. Could we start there?

Our current arrangement is with Dressage New South Wales. They're the ones that we have all the arrangements... We're discussing regularly. They've started to dismantle the site, in case you're not aware. They've started to take things away from the site, and they're the ones that we deal with. Ross

I was with you there on Tuesday, and we were looking at the site together. Okay, here's my next question, and it was foreshadowed, so that we're not all wasting our time: what criteria... Would you assess an application from another group, such as New South Wales Equestrian, and I want you to phrase this in the way of, well, if they meet this criteria, then they would be successful in their application. I want to know what that criteria is, such that if they tick those boxes, it would be perverse to withhold consent. I think, Nathan,

I think you would agree that I can't make that decision, that I'd accept that that's a committee decision, the same as you can't make a decision on the council's behalf. I would believe that the organisations that wish to participate or operate should come forward with a clear-cut plan of how they would wish to operate going into the future, and how they would wish to operate, organise the events, work in conjunction with our other events that are staged there, and also to do the necessary maintenance at the moment to bring those up to a standard.

Ross, with the very greatest of respect, you are Mr. Hawkesbury Show. You know more about this than anybody I know, which is why I respect you so much. You can't even suggest or hint at what the committee's view might be about the criteria against which an application would be assessed.

Mr Mayor, that's out of order.

It is, Councillor. Mr Matheson's already answered. He can't answer on behalf, as he indicated you can't on behalf of Council. Rephrase your question.

I'll try and rephrase the question. I'll invite Mr Matheson again to assist by helping us understand what HDAAR are looking for.

Nathan, we got a document in '22 that said they wished to terminate. That organisation is still talking to us regularly on the line of termination. I know that they're talking to contractors about having it dismantled. You know, you don't come up with—you can't talk. We're talking about Plan B or C or whatever. It's not been put in front of anyone. Where is a solid , you know, cement-hard offer being put forward? We're running a multifunctional place. We're looking after lots of different things. We've got lots of different organisations working there.

Ross, I'm trying to mitigate against a circumstance where we argue this until we're exhausted, and an extension is granted, and a submission is made, and then it's discarded out of hand, driven by the same spirit that drove this correspondence, and none of us will be any the wiser as to why

Point of order, Mr Mayor. Councilor Zamproni, under the Code of Meeting Practice, is entitled to ask questions of the person with their agreement. He is now debating

With the member. Thank you, Councillor

Thank you very much. You are

The last one. You said Hawksbury Citizen of the Year. Yeah. We don't just—you know, that accolade is not just thrown like that because of your— It's my height. You are a legend. You are a legend. You are the last person, am I— Correct , to say and understand that you are not here to , again, you know, go head to head, but to sit down and discuss it, starting from tomorrow morning, to see that, you know, what we could do to satisfy every single one of these people without wasting a second and money. Can you give us your word?

There's a lot of people sitting in this room that have come here tonight with equestrian fronts and—

I can assure you, over the years, we've had debates over things, we've discussed things, but we've moved forward in mutual ways to suit both parties in various ways.

Never mind that, you know what happened. Never mind that. From tomorrow morning, get your panel and get the other side. Initiate the talk. Be a big man. You are a big man. Initiate, and you start to contact them and sit down, and we have very intellectual people, 12 of us. We can sit down and please sort this thing out, you know, without wasting any time. I understand, except what you're saying. Okay Thank you

Councillor. Thanks, Mr Mayor. I just wanted to ask a question. It has been noted that Councillor Lyons-Buckett is going to amend the motion she's going to put up, and she has mentioned the period of 60 days, requesting 60 days. Now, I know you can't speak on behalf of the HDAA committee. Now, you've just stated that you guys are dealing with Dressage New South Wales, and they're already talking about contacting contractors to remove the assets . If we put this through tonight and we request you 30 to 60 days, will Dressage New South Wales actually, like , agree to that if they're already talking? I can't

Answer for them, but I would imagine that they would be acceptable to that. Okay.

Thanks.

We're all humans, and we're all living in the Hawkesbury, and we're all loving citizens, aren't we? Thanks.

Thank you, Ross. No worries. Thank you. That was the last speaker. That was the last speaker. Councillor Lyons-Buckett, you have a motion.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I do have a motion which differs slightly from the one that was published in the business paper. I'm sure it will come up on the screen. I did provide that to all councillors and to the show, the HDAA, I always call them the Show Society, but the HDAA, and to Mr Oliver. And the changes were in light of the offer that was made by the HDAA for Equestrian New South Wales to submit a proposal within 30 days. Do we have a seconder? Yes, I'm sorry. It is up here now. I don't know that people can see that up there. Councillor

Wills is the seconder. Councillor, it's a pretty important thing to a lot of people. Would you mind reading your motion?

No, I wouldn't mind at all. Can I just suggest we make it a bit bigger so people in the back of the gallery... Yeah, I do that. Yeah, maybe they...

Also, Mr Mayor, I have a point of order. Have we lost Councillor McMahon? Yes. We have lost Councillor McMahon.

That's a shame

Well, we haven't lost you. I know exactly where she is, but she's not on the screen. Thank you. Okay.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'm not sure if everyone can see it, but if most people can see it, I won't read it word for word, but I will just say that the differences from what was in the business paper regarding that Council expresses its opinion to the Hawkesbury District HDAA, I'll call them, that they not proceed with any demolition. And I imagine from what Mr Matheson said that that would require them to speak to Dressage New South Wales, that nothing be demolished for the next 60 days while there's time for that proposal to be submitted and to be considered from Equestrian New South Wales. The second one is that we request to have in writing, but I think we've heard it here tonight, the commitment from HDAA that dressage events will continue to be able to be held at the showground, but including in that the limitation we have around the operations and the organisation of that, that that would have to be a matter between whichever user group that was and the HDAA.

And the third point, which doesn't relate directly to this, but that Council has received a report outlining the roles and responsibilities of Crown Land managers, our responsibilities as Crown Land managers, and I'll speak to that in a minute. I'll start my five minutes now, Mr Mayor. As we can see, with everyone who's come here tonight, and thank you for coming out on a cold night, I think this is a very healthy thing for democracy to have an issue around public land and public infrastructure and something that clearly has very passionate people on all sides of the situation, to be able to come into our chamber and to deliver their perspectives so that we all have a better understanding about what's happening.

It's happening. It's quite a complex and unusual situation, given that there's been different people who've had a licence as compared to who now is proposing to want a licence. And for that reason, I think that the mechanism that a proposal can be submitted is a really good way forward, because we do not have the power. We're not adjudicators in this situation. We're the crown land managers, but we have a lease on that property. So we are able to request certain things, as we are doing in this motion. We're also happy to have this done transparently so that people can see what has unfolded with it. Despite Councillor Dogramachi's great enthusiasm, I'm not sure that we're in a position to sit down with people unless there was a request made, and we wouldn't do that, I don't think, as a councillor as such, but maybe, you know, as someone in an individual capacity could do that if that was a request that, you know, was within the realms of how we can operate.

We must operate within the limitations imposed on us. So no matter what anybody says or wants, we can't just barge in and tell people what to do when there's existing legal arrangements. First of all, I think that not for a minute would I undermine the importance of all of these activities, nor of all the volunteers who go out to either equestrian events or to manning the show or to organising any of the events that we see in our public spaces. I think you're all amazing to do it, and I think you should all be applauded. Our community is much richer by having so many people who are prepared to be involved in various activities. Part of this motion does ask for us to have our role as Crown land managers clarified, because this was something that came up when this issue emerged, that we are designated Crown land managers.

But I would like to know more about what that actually entails us, what our responsibilities are. I know we have to uphold the Crown Lands Act principles, which involve making sure that the land is being used for its gazetted purpose, which of course is for agricultural activities, for horse events, for dog events, for private meetings, etc. It has a number of uses, and so certainly we are seeing that it is being used for that. And the request from the HDAA to commit that dressage events would still be able to be held there is also another thing which I think is very important, because nobody would want to think that there would be not available to have those sort of events in our public arena—not that sort of arena, just our general public arena—because I know how important the equestrian sector is to this community.

So both the events that are held at the Showground and all of our equestrian events, no matter where they're held, whether they're polo, whether they're show jumping, whatever, they're all contributors to our local economy. They're all contributors to the culture and the history of this area, and I think that we really need to be working to solve these issues when they come up. The one thing missing, I think, from this thing is an actual sort of official position from Dressage New South Wales, and the complexities around what happened there, I'm still not 100%. So I would hope that in this position going forward, when there's an engagement between the parties, as there has been publicly declared a commitment on both sides to engage in that, I would— I would hope that somebody can clarify the exact situation around what Dressage New South Wales, you know, as a party who sort of was involved and then not involved, what they would do around that.

I really think that I just really became involved in bringing this in because I was getting conflicting information around things, and I think it's a really important issue. Also, it is good to establish publicly what Council's role is in this situation and, you know, to hear what is happening out there in the community. We all want what's best for our whole community, and the 12 of us, of course, are acting for everybody, and we need to see a balance between how everything is carried out in public spaces. That being said, we can't dictate that, but we can certainly provide a forum for your perspectives to be heard. And I think giving that tonight means that this is in the public domain now, and what goes forward, people will be watching and people will be hoping that this is all done in good faith, that we really can arrive at a solution which enables all these activities to continue.

And I'm interested to hear what my colleagues have to say. If anybody wants to change any aspect of this that is unpalatable, I think it's a good motion that moves us forward at this point, rather than seeing the whole thing just simply dissipate.

Thanks, Councillor.

Any other Councillor wish to speak?

Councillor Zambrano. Nobody wants to go. Okay. I feel like I've lost days of my life to this because I'm so conflicted. I have the deepest respect for the local equestrian community . My own great-grandfather used to show Welsh mountain ponies, probably did at Hawkesbury, probably a hundred years ago. And of course, no amount of thanks would ever be enough to thank the wonderful committee and volunteers of the Hawkesbury District Agricultural Association. We've relied on them for so many years to be good stewards of that land. And I have to say that to disagree with them on a matter like this is such a rare event. It's upsetting to see people talking past one another in this way. So my heart is very much to kind of find some kind of amicable solution.

But because of the limited role that this chamber has, despite our lofty title of being Crown land managers, I feel like we're being reduced to the role of marriage counsellors, and nobody wants to be in that space. I think it's worth reminding the chamber that what's being proposed here is of limited and very focused scope. We can't force this issue. In fact, the advice that we've received is that the only thing that we could do is the nuclear option, which is terminate the lease. But nobody wants to do that. We absolutely don't want to do that. So we're left with providing a public forum for these views to be given an airing, and everyone's been very civil, and thank you for that, because it is in the public interest, and then to ask nicely.

And we are asking nicely that a reprieve be given, that the New South Wales Equestrian Association are given a fair go to make a submission that will not be a waste of time, will not be assessed against some hidden criteria and then discarded out of hand, leaving us precisely where we stand, which is why I was prepared to press Ross , despite our many years of friendship, to lay out what that criteria is. I don't know that we had a complete answer, but what's been said is now on the public record. Ultimately our role as Crown land managers is to try and guide what the highest or best use of that land is. And when I asked the Agricultural Association what their alternative vision was, I was struck by the fact that it was noble, it was aspirational, but it was nebulous, it was not funded, and the realisation of providing a new covered space or some other use lays many years in the future.

And considering that this land is well used, actively used, and is a source of revenue to the Agricultural Association, I think it would be perverse not to permit the continued use of that land until at least the conclusion of a renewed licence or sublease agreement.

This is public land that has been largely funded by public money, and I share the community's broader concern that infrastructure that has been so funded and so well used over such a long time should not be likely. Demolished . I mean, it's good to know that the New South Wales Dressage Association could make good on the conditions of their concluded agreement by raising that public infrastructure to the ground. But I think any of us would be upset if we took $100,000 of our own money, put it into a tidy pile, and then put a match to it. And I rather agree with the point that— It was made that the fact that this is single-use land isn't really a compelling argument to me. It's 8% of the showground site.

We would not expect to hold a monster truck event at the racecourse. We would not expect to hold gymnastics at the swimming pool. It's a dressage arena. That's a specialised facility that's used by people who train riders and their horses to Olympic standard. We should be proud to have that in this area, and I'm very sad that bad blood, I'll say it, acrimony, a falling out, has led to this lamentable situation. And I call on all parties to work reasonably together towards a solution. Thank you. Thank you,

Councillor.

Councillor Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Firstly, I'd like to thank all the speakers that came tonight to address Council. I'm in favour of the motion, and I thank Councillor Lyons-Buckett for bringing it to the chamber. Everybody likes a gold medal when we get to the Olympic Games, Mr. Mayor, and equestrian and horse riding is one of them. I remember a long time ago I came out here at the age of 12 into a place called the Willows, and God knows where that is. I think it's behind me. And I was thrown off a horse. I didn't fall off a horse, but that was the first ever broken bone I ever had. It was a long, long drive back to Royal North Shore Hospital. I remember it as yesterday. I'm not going to add to anything more my fellow colleagues have said.

I think it's all been said. I beg you, for both parties to come together and come to common ground. That's what I'm expecting, and I think the chamber would be expecting that. It just doesn't make sense, the bulldoze infrastructure. Not to me, never has been, never will be. I completely understand why you want to keep those facilities. I think they need to be there, and I think it can come to common ground because I've seen a letter that's coming today, which is basically a [unclear] branch to sit down with Equestrian New South Wales, and I thank them for coming to and supporting the dressage at the Hawkesbury. I'm not going to say much more than that, just to say that I'll be supporting the motion.

Thank you. Thanks

Councillor.

Councillors, I've been around the showground for quite a while, and while I don't ride horses, I'm involved in sport and understand the running and structure of activities, whether they be at the showground or in other places. When we talk about multi-use grounds and the likes, I wish it was as simple as that, but it's not. I got asked to be involved in this some time ago, and with a colleague trying to resolve it. I haven't been in a position to make a decision on it, and I won't be. It'll be made by the HDAA. They've got management of that land. But when we talk about use of land, and just be mindful of both parties, that when we spoke about the sand arenas and the likes, we could go down to Bondi Beach and do that. We're not. We're in the Hawkesbury. It's limited area, limited space, limited finances. And the like.

And we're not going to go dancing on that. It's for horses. While it's a public piece of land, it's for a purpose, a purpose that's not going to be provided in other places. And the Show Society has exactly the same problem. They've got an area where they work with the community for a whole heap of different reasons, but mainly the outcome is exactly the same. They're specific purposes for those areas. So those of you that are involved in the discussion, just be mindful there is two sides to the story. In relation to our involvement, it's been discussed by the councillors. We wield a big stick from a perspective of a lease. That's not going to be used. It's not going to be talked about being used.

The lease is there and the like. The arrangements made by the showground will be decided by them. And I hope the discussions tonight have been fruitful and offers some opportunity. And I wish the people involved all the best in an outcome that will satisfy those people involved.

Councillor Wheeler, you had your light on.

Thanks, Mr Mayor.

I think that this meeting has allowed both groups to clarify their position. Both groups have also been very willing to meet with councillors, both on the site and via other means, to discuss their needs and their side of the story, and I thank them for that. Because having that bigger picture, I think, has made it clearer, firstly, what actions Council can take, but what everyone wants out of this arrangement. I'm guided by the principles of the Crown Lands Act, and the relevant ones are that Crown land is to be used for public use and enjoyment, that where appropriate multiple use is being encouraged, that where appropriate it should be used and managed in such a way that both the land and its resources are sustained in perpetuity.

And I think part of those resources are the human resource involved in the management of these sites, and also that the land is occupied, used, sold, leased, licensed, or otherwise dealt with in the best interests of the state. And that sets this site above the sites that Council normally manages, in that this is Crown land, this is a state site, and its importance to the state needs to be considered as well. The position from Crown Lands, when several of us met with them yesterday, was quite clear. Council cannot forcibly amend this lease. Hawkesbury Council doesn't have the option of issuing an additional tenure for another group that is carved off from the original lease.

The other thing that I think I want to make really clear is that no one here is debating the Hawkesbury District Agricultural Association's management of this site, which has been exemplary for decades, and we saw that in really all its glory at the Hawkesbury Show recently. Come flood, fire, heatwave, you name it, HDAA has been there keeping this show running, keeping this showground running. It's highly unlikely that we will satisfy everyone. Life isn't like that. This job is very rarely like that. We always manage to irritate somebody. I think it's really regrettable that it's reached this point, and this is a fine case for early skilled external mediation. And there are lessons for Council here as well.

Council also cannot force Hawkesbury District Agricultural Association to sublease to Equestrian New South Wales or anybody else. What we can provide is a potential circuit breaker with this public hearing and a request for stay of demolition. Hawkesbury District Agricultural Association has made a good faith offer for

A 30-day extension and a proposal, and has outlined some of what it requires in that proposal. Good decision making that reaches consensus and keeps as many people happy as possible requires two things: time and goodwill. The Agricultural Association has also asked for more detailed information, which is entirely reasonable given that they have significant responsibilities as Crown land leaseholders. Sixty days, I hope, should provide enough time, but the goodwill is up to all of you, and I think the eight of us around this table, the nine of us around this table. And the community that we represent now expect all of you to go forward in a spirit of goodwill from all sides to get the best possible outcome for both of your organisations and for the community, using the principles of the Crown Land Act.

Thank you, Councillor.

Yep . Councillor Creed. Thanks , Mr Mayor. Just before I start, I just want to get through you from the staff, just in general terms, I know some people have explained it, but I'd prefer to hear it directly from staff. Just in general legal terms, what is our responsibility? What is our position when it comes to actually what we can actually do to resolve this situation? Thanks, Councillor.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. I guess if we looked at each of the issues, the only thing that Council can do, which has been stated here earlier, is that Council can request HDAA to potentially sub-lease out that area to another group, whether that be the New South Wales Equestrian or some other group. Council has done that. That's all that Council can do as far as that goes. As far as potentially amending the lease, the only way that Council can amend the lease is with the consent of the HDAA.

Can I also just get clarification on what Councillor Zamparonio has stated , that Council allegedly has the new clear option of tearing up the lease. Can I just get clarification on that? My understanding was that we couldn't do that. Yeah, thanks, Councillor.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. Council has a lease with HDAA, which has another eight to nine years to run. It's a lawful lease. There are clauses in that lease that Council can terminate that lease if those clauses, I guess, within the lease are not adhered to, and they would be the only terms that Council could terminate those lease.

Sorry, one more, just to clarify. And at this point in time, to your knowledge, none of those clauses have happened, and we have no option at the moment to tear up a lease because they haven't breached any of those clauses?

Yeah, look, I probably prefer not to go into the detail around that, but there's a number of clauses within the lease that Council could terminate everything from things like the organisation going bankrupt to breaches of the lease and things like that, or the rent not being paid, things like that. So Council would need to work its way through those clauses, but certainly the evidence on the majority of those clauses, there's nothing there that Council could effectively grab hold of to terminate the lease. Okay,

Thank you.

And I guess the other part of that is that then Council then can try and mediate a resolution around that for the reasons why that is the case.

Yeah, I just wanted to make sure that there was no...

Just further to that. No, sorry. Just further question, have we written the show? Society on any occasion in that regard.

The only thing recently the council has written to the HCAA is to request that they consider subleasing that area out to another group such as the New South Wales Equestrian. Thanks.

Thank you, Councillor. No, thank you, Mr Mayor. I'll keep it short because it has been a long evening. I'll be honest. When I first saw this notice of motion come up, I think we got informed about it on Monday afternoon that this meeting was happening. I was a bit concerned because I'd seen on Facebook posts that were coming up and saying, Turn up to the council meeting on Thursday night. This decision rests in council's hands. I was a bit concerned about that information being put out there in the community when we've all heard tonight that it is not actually up to us. We can request things, but we cannot force the HCAA to do anything while they have their lease. As far as I'm aware, they haven't broken any part of that lease.

We cannot rip up that lease. We have no say when it comes to who they lease it to or give a license to, however you want to call it. I will need to say that from my understanding, the staff have done everything possible to try and resolve this situation between the two parties, and I do want to thank the staff for trying to almost be the pseudo mediators with this issue. Look, I'm happy to support the amended motion, but I do need to make it clear. I mean, I ran into someone this afternoon when I was out at Skibbere, actually getting my lesson for my horses, and I think her daughter's do dressage, and she was chatting to me about it and— She was told, again, I'm not sure by who, I think it comes through the Dressage community or the Equestrian community, again, that it was Council's decision, that it was up to tonight was going to either save them or, you know, end them, essentially.

So I think we need to make this very clear to the public, for those in the gallery and also those watching online, that whilst this is a notice of motion, it is a request. It does not— we do not have the authority. We have to, as councillors, work within the legal parameters that have been set by the Crown Land Act by the state government. Yes, we are Crown land managers, but we have leased this out back in 2014 to the HDAA for 20 years. They still have eight to nine years to run on that lease. For us to turn around and try and say that we are going to come in halfway through a lease and dictate how someone operates their organisation and what they do with the land, it would be akin to us renting out one of our shopfronts and then coming into a business and saying, We don't agree with how you're operating your business.

We're going to come in and operate it for you. I just, you know, when there is a legal lease there, we have very limited power, and I just want the community to understand that this decision does not rest on us. This comes to the two disputing parties. They need to come together. They need to work together. They need to compromise, which is something that I try and do here since I've been re-elected. Well, since I've come back into council, I try and work with all councillors, regardless of their political stripes. You've got to compromise. You've got to work together. Sometimes you're not always going to get what you want. Votes don't always go the way I want, but you know what? You've got to suck it up and move on.

But you actually have to sit down and talk to each other. So I'm happy to support it, but at the end of the day, we don't actually have— Really any authority. You guys have got to work it out for yourselves.

Thank you, Councillor. Just to clarify, I expect when Mr Oliver asked, could he speak, there's a different view, legal view, with some. The information that we've got, but from our staff and from external, that the information being provided here tonight is our obligation. So just to clarify that,

Councillor Ryan. Thank you, Mr Mayor. Look, this has been an education for me, especially along the Pound Act, Lands Act, and dressage, something I really didn't know a lot about. And the operation of the Hawkesbury Show Group, I have been involved with—well, I've been to shows since I was four years old, so I've been to nearly every one of them, and they do a tremendous job. I don't think we should let this become a festering point for our associations, our show, or the equestrian people. I think it's a thing we've got to work through, that we have to get the best results. I am, and you know, Mr Mayor, I do push that we have multi-use for things. So you've seen that on some of the developments that I've been involved with, with parklands.

I do not like to see things go down the lines where one group can only have use, because that then brings other groups into the, let's say, the situation where they're not happy either. I think that we should work through this and leave it with our people from Hawkesbury Show Committee, and I believe, after speaking to them at length, they are people of good wisdom. We have to have a wisdom in this here. Our wisdom is for the people of the Hawkesbury, our ratepayers. And I hope that going through this tonight, some of our wisdom has now passed on to all the people in this chamber, so that a result can come that suits as many people as possible, and that we will can move on forward with this to great, to build our Hawkesbury, to build our people, and to build the strength.

I thank you very much, and yes, I will be supporting this motion. Thanks, Councillor.

Any

Other debate? Right of reply, Councillor.

Thank you, Mr Mayor, and I'll just be quick. I'd again like to thank the speakers. It really was important. I really do value the various perspectives being told, and as you've heard from my colleagues here tonight, everybody is enlightened by hearing your perspectives. It's not, as we've said, an easy situation. We never want to see the loss, the unnecessary loss of any existing public infrastructure anywhere. We also don't want to see lost opportunities around either things that can happen or around alternatives or compromise. I would just hope that respect and understanding and good faith are what is taken away tonight, that there is an opportunity here now . It's not been easy, I know, with the changes between Dressage New South Wales and Equestrian New South Wales wanting to be the person involved, and that has to be sort of addressed in the way that you would.

But we heard from the HDWA that they are quite happy to engage in a process around this, and I encourage you all, regardless of where you stand on this, to work with the process that is available to you. We've done what we can do, which is to bring it into the public domain so that you know what our position is. Further down the track, when there's time for new leases or things, that could be a different situation. The Crown Lands Management Act has changed in 2016, and who knows in a few decades what the needs in this area will be. We're very blessed in the Hawkesbury that we do have open space, that we can have activities that other people don't necessarily get to enjoy, and I know that all of our facilities are used from people from out of town as well.

So on that note, I thank people for supporting it. I thank— I hope that this has at least helped. The infrastructure won't be bulldozed on the 30th of June, and I hope that within that space that has been given, that there can be some productive discussions and some solutions reached

Thank you. Thanks , Councillor. Those in favour of the motion? That's unanimous. Those against? Carried. It's Councillor Zane Brogno, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Lyons-Buck, Councillor Ryan, Councillor Kotlasch, Councillor Cree, Councillor Veigel, Councillor Dogramaci, and Councillor Sheehan. Just before the meeting closes, I'd just— excuse me. Just before the meeting closes, I'd just like to thank everyone that did attend here tonight, and for your commitment to the organisations you're involved with, and have a safe trip home. Meeting closed. Thank you.