2 June 2026 - Ordinary

Thank you, Councillors. We'll now proceed with the meeting of Council. Hawkesbury City Council acknowledges the Darug and Dharugung people as the traditional custodians of the land of the Hawkesbury. We pay respect to all Elders past and present and emerging, and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders people as the First People of the country.

General Manager. Thank you, Mr Mayor. Members of the public attending the meeting are advised that in the event of an emergency, you will be asked to proceed in an orderly manner to the nearest exit following the guidance of our warden. I would also like to advise that in accordance with clause 3.34 of the Code of Meeting Practice, meetings of the Council are recorded. In the terms of the Privacy and Personal Information Protection Act, this may involve the recording of personal information provided at the time of the meeting. The recordings are made to assist staff in compiling the minutes of the meeting and to enable the podcasting and live stream of Council meetings. The provision of any information that is recorded is voluntary.

If any person does not wish to be recorded, they should not address or request to address the meeting. The gallery can be seen in the live stream video. If you do not wish to be recorded in the live stream, please move to the foyer and we will turn the foyer speakers on for you. The recordings may be made available to other persons where such access is in accordance with the relevant regulations. The recordings are stored on Council's record management system and uploaded to Council's website. Meetings of the Council may be separately recorded—may not be—may be separately recorded, my apologies, with the prior authority of Council. And finally, it is also requested that if any person participating in or attending the meeting has a mobile phone, that they either turn it off or turn it to silent.

Thank you, Mr Mayor.

Thank you. Apologies, Councillors. I've got a note here I'll read out in relation to apologies for leave of absence. It's from two Councillors, so we need two different motions on it in relation to the Act. Councillors, I've received an application from Councillor Creed to take leave of absence from council duties due to personal reasons, effective the 18th of May 26 until the 30th of June 26. I've also received an apology from Councillor Veigel for tonight's, excuse me, council meeting, and I'd recommend that they be done with two separate motions. I'll just, I'll read one motion and ask for a mover. Councillors, I have a motion to accept— can I have a motion to accept an apology attended by Councillor Creed for the council meetings that take place between the 18th of May and the 30th of June due to personal reasons, and grant leave of absence from the council meetings that take place until the 30th of June.

I'll move that, Mr Mayor. I'll second it. Councillor

Lyons-Buckett. Councillor Reardon. Any debate? Those in favour? Against? It's carried unanimously. Councillor Brogno, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Councillor Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Reardon and Sheather. The second motion that I would ask for, Councillors, can I also have a motion to accept an apology tendered by Councillor Veigel for the council meeting of the 2nd of June 26 due to personal reasons, and grant leave of absence from council meeting of that date, 2nd of June 26.

I'll move that, Mr Mayor. Second, Mr Mayor. Councillor Reardon

Councillor Kotlash. Those in favour?

Against? It's carried. It's Councillor Brogno, Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash. Reardon and Sheather.

Is there any declarations of interest, councillors?

Yes, Mr Mayor.

Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

I'd like to declare a less than significant non-pecuniary interest in Mayoral Minute 1, and also declare that in item 9.4.7, the remnant land review

Thank you. Any others?

Confirmation of the minutes of the 12th of May. Moved those. Councillor Reardon.

Seconder?

Councillor Ryan. Those in favour? Against? Carried. It's Councillor Brogno, Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Reardon and Sheather.

There is no confederal. ..

Mr Mayor, could I move a procedural motion that we hear 7.1.2, the item that was subject to public address, as the first item, please?

Yeah. Thank you.

Is there a seconder for that? Councillor Brogda, those in favour? Against? It's carried.

Councillors, I'd move the motion of 7.1.2 as written.

It's in relation to a lady who's just spoken about, Jan Barkley-Jack and Anne Neal, and in recognition of the work that they've been involved in and their commitment to those activities in the city for a long time.

Excuse me. I'll just speak briefly. Jan Barkley-Jack, you've heard the comments that were made most recently about it. As the third oldest colony, we've got a few people, and a lot of them sit in the gallery tonight, that have taken a keen interest in the history of our city and been involved in the construction, reconstruction, studies that have been done, committees over years , and in a variety of ways. We're not just talking about buildings, we're talking about culture, we're talking about cemeteries, anything that's older than me, I guess, she's spoken, talked about.

And while I haven't been on committees with her, I've certainly— been associated in more formal ways, I guess, of the like, and she's leaving or she's left to go up the coast. And I just felt that it was, as a community, as council, that we should recognise people that contribute as much as she has. Usually we wait till people fall off the planet and then talk about them. Well, she's not fallen off the planet; she's just taken a different location. And I wish her all the best.

Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. I'm very happy to speak to this motion about Jan Barkley-Jack. I've known Jan since I first moved here and became involved very early in the piece with the Australiana Pioneer Village. Jan did an extraordinary amount of work to document the history of the village, to gather an oral history and turn that into a state heritage listing. That was instrumental in saving the village, to prevent the collection being broken up and the buildings and the collection being dispersed. A really significant moment in the recognition and protection of humble heritage, the homes that ordinary people would have lived in, in an era where we were still just preserving the grand homes of the very wealthy and very influential.

There's a great story of Jan going in to the meeting with the State Heritage Office, saying that she thought she'd be out in five minutes because she didn't think they were going to go for the listing, and she was in there for 45. And the piece de resistance was showing the bit of footage of.. . Case or cart, I can't remember which one, flying down the Putty Road on the back of a flat-top Bedford with its veranda flapping in the breeze, filmed on a really old reel and then transferred to video. So this was done in the early 1970s, long before we ever asked permission to do anything and involved any sort of regulation at all. And it was that piece of footage that was sent to have convinced the Heritage Office.

I think that anyone who really believes that it was that piece of footage does Jan an enormous disservice. It was really her, the case that she put forward, that saved the village. There was an extraordinary community effort to do that, but Jan gave us the information and the credibility for the village to be what it is today, this really well-loved and well-recognised piece of national history. Jan's that really rare person, I think, who sees a need and just fills it without fuss or fanfare. She's been really pivotal in telling the real story of the Hawkesbury's past, not the larrikinism, not the big tales of the grand men, but the ordinary stories of the people who just made this place. And I think her PhD work is probably the culmination of that, that idea that very ordinary people could come and make something from this place that allowed them to prosper, but also allowed them to feed the colony and for the whole colony to both survive and prosper.

Jan has been the go-to for heritage information in the Hawkesbury for as long as I've lived here. There's very little that Jan doesn't know, and if she doesn't know, she can usually nut it out. And she's very measured, she's very well considered, and she's very well articulated in her research. And I think that that goes a long way then to— To allowing everybody else to use that information. Jan's also not— she's been very skilled, I think, in navigating the change in the historical narrative over the last 40-odd years in the Hawkesbury. We've spent a lot of time in the Hawkesbury talking about our colonial past. Jan has been one of the very early embracers and one of the very strong advocates on the Heritage Committee that we also embrace our Dharug history and our first contact period, which is incredibly important in the Hawkesbury between the Dharug and the early colony.

And I think that that has been a pivotal change for the Heritage Committee, and Jan has been one of the strongest advocates. So I really want to thank her for the extraordinary contribution she's made. We will miss her greatly, but I really wish her well in her new space.

Thanks very much, Councillor.

Councillor Zamprogno. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I some time ago fell into the habit of referring to Jan, whenever I was making a post about something where she was there, I referred to Jan Barkley-Jack, our national treasure.

And when we frequently crossed paths because of a shared interest in this area's history, I came to appreciate the depth of her knowledge and, like Councillor Wheeler said, the quiet and diligent and patient approach that she took, and her gifts as a storyteller, I think, are where she really shines. I regret that I didn't bring my copy of Hawkesbury Settlement Revealed to have it… Autographed today. I'll take that as a rain check, but I want to take the opportunity to say that Jan's contribution has been priceless , not only through the Heritage Committee, where she gave of her time willingly, not only through the Historical Society, where she gave of her time willingly, not only through the National Trust, and recently, only very recently, we had the opportunity to visit the Hobartville property, and there she was on a lawn chair, holding forth as each group came by and filling the space with rich stories that just brought the history of that place alive, as she always does.

So I couldn't let this moment pass without saying a very sincere thank you for your contributions. I also want to recognise Anne Neal and say that, Anne, your contribution to the Sports Council has been exemplary. The quiet, efficient, patient way in which you dealt with what I'm sure were very often rambunctious stakeholders, not only from Council but from the various sporting groups, have been just amazing. And you are both, ladies, a great loss to us, and we wish you all the very best in the next season of your life. Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Buckett.

Thank you, Mr Mayor, and thank you to Carol for giving us an outline on some of Jan's career, which of course was far too big for— To be covered in a five-minute speech. I'd like to add the thanks and appreciation to Jan for all that she's done. It's been a privilege getting to know her over the years at various things, but particularly in these last few years on the Heritage Committee. I think that it does really show us the depth of knowledge that we are just simply so privileged to have within our community, to have people share this immense knowledge and so generously. And some communities just don't have that. I mean, we really, really are fortunate. We've got a significantly, you know, one of the third earliest European settlement here, and we've got people who have studied and interpreted the histories around that, and they've shared that knowledge with us so generously.

And that's something that the generations to come will have the benefit of, as well as us having had that benefit. So I'm glad to hear Jan will be back. I hope she comes back for the Heritage meeting. I'm assuming she's going to just keep being on the Heritage Committee for years to come, and she'll— yep, forever. That's what happens. And I'd just like to say a really sincere thank you to Jan and wish her well and see her on Thursday at the Heritage meeting.

Deputy Mayor.

Thank you, Mr Mayor, and I thank you for bringing this Mayoral Minute. I think it is a wonderful idea to acknowledge individuals in our community who contribute so much to community wellbeing. And you certainly have chosen two people, again, who are leaving the area at the same time, but for their own individual intentions, and I think it's wonderful to celebrate and acknowledge their contribution. Jan, as everyone has already said, a remarkable woman with a vast knowledge of this local area and such a passion for history. Thank you for your contribution. And to Anne, having sat on the Sports Council for five years and seen how wonderfully you manage the most fragile and delicate relationships between people, the way that you do that is wonderful, and I know that it has been challenging.

And whether you are remunerated or not for the contribution you make to our community, you have gone above and beyond. And I wanted to thank you for that, because sport is so integral to our local area, whether you are a child or an older person playing sport, and the way you've managed competing interests with teams and sports and somehow always found a resolution to those conflicts, I think that really needed to be highlighted. And I just wanted to say thank you to both of you and wish you well. Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay, I'll make a comment about Anne.

I've got—there's ten years here. I think it's probably closer to twenty

There wouldn't have been two days in a row, I guess, that I never spoke to her in that time. Sometimes it was about laughs. Most of the time, most of the time, it was about working on projects or what we were trying to achieve for sport. But it didn't, the nine-to-five job that you can find in the office didn't sort of twig too well with the job. I'd write in here just a couple of things that happened, like the late calls and stuff. It didn't happen, you know, once a year, once a month. It was once a night, practically, where lights wouldn't come on or wouldn't turn off, and irrigation that would come on during games, perhaps. Incidents of wet weather. We've got a big city, it can be rained in Wilberforce, Pelton down, and winds of the sunshine, you know, and when you've got grounds off, they can't be played on the like.

And we've got 38 of them. It's not easy to do between nine and five, when organisations need confirmation. They've got people from all over the place that's driving or commuting to grounds, and so it takes a special person to be able to deal with those and handle it well . The issues that come up from time to time, the relationship that she has with council staff. There's not much that happens up there that's not run past the staff. And while there might have been frustrations from time to time. That happened with every committee person, and me, probably me more than most, I guess. But that commitment was always there. She's got a caravan up the coast that she spends a bit of time, and I think she's off there first thing in the morning.

But the phone calls didn't stop. Late at night, you'd ask how she's going. If she took a while to answer, you knew that she hadn't opened the red wine yet. So if she answered pretty quick, you know that the conversation was going to be going all right . But that commitment over that period of time, and at the moment she's on leave for a few more weeks. And the reason that , it was probably February or something that she went on leave, that accumulation of leave was because she found it extremely hard to get away. There's only two staff at the Sports Council, a finance administrator and her, and it was left to the committee when she wasn't about that things would go pear-shaped naturally. So the commitment that she's had to sport, and with things like grants, she would fill the grants out for the sports, and then they would sign off on it, and so the grants would go directly to the particular clubs, stuff like that.

And the homework that goes with that and the relationship with the clubs, it's commendable. So, Anne, thank you very much, and to you, Jan, for what you've done.

Councillor Mary Lyons-Buckett. Oh,

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Sorry, I thought they were separate items, so I hadn't wished Anne well, and I would

Just like to. You can go for it now.

Thank you very much, and congratulate her for her enormous commitment to the sporting and wider Hawkesbury community. It sounds, and I know, that she would have gone over and above, particularly when we face so many things with flooding and various other interruptions to various sporting fields. So I thank her very much for that commitment. I congratulate her on having a conversation with you every second day. I think that's a wonderful exhibit of tenacity and fortitude. Surely there's a plaque for that. Yeah, there should be a plaque. But I do thank you for that commitment and wish you well in future endeavours. Thank you.

Any further discussion, councillors? Jan and Anne, if you can come up, I've got a little something to offer

You .

Thank you , Councillors. The recommendation was to acknowledge the work and commitment over many years of Jan Barkley-Jack and Anne Neal. Those in favour? Against? Carried.

Councillors, Zamprogno, Wheel, Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Reardon and Sheather. Thank you, Councillors.

The next item, Councillors, we need to deal with the late supplementary report, which is 9.2.1 first. The

Recommendation is

On page 5, Councillors.

I'm moved the recommendation, Mr Mayor.

Thank you, Councillor Reardon. Councillor Kotlash.

Is there any discussion or questions in relation to—

Yes, please, Mr Mayor. I just had a question. Does the 2023 code come into practice immediately now or not? Okay, so for the rest of this meeting, it's under that code? I'll just speak briefly to it. I know I had a second question, and I think our Director of Manager of Governance answered it for me today. But the status of the pre-meeting forum, under the previous code, we don't have any capacity for that. So as of next meeting, we revert to speakers before items. Is that correct?

Yes, it is, Councillor. Okay,

Thank you. Mr Mayor, I think just the scenario around this issue with the code, I think it's just sort of fair to point out that it's a little bit indicative of a level of government that's facing a lot of challenges at the moment. And I think that this is one of them, that now we are put into a suspended sort of state of having to go back to an old code while we wait for the directives from the Minister for whatever will happen next. And I just think that I'm just expressing my frustration, I guess, that it is yet another thing within our working environment where we have to wait and wait and wait. And I'd just like to point out that patience really is a trait that's required for anyone working or serving in local government. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor. Deputy Mayor.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I will keep my remarks quite short. Suffice to say, I think there is an enormous sense of relief amongst the 128 councils in New South Wales that this code of meeting practice only lasted just less than six months. So I think that I'm very comfortable going back to the previous one. The public forum idea was good in theory, and I still think there may be an appetite for some kind of forum to continue. But I do believe the speaking on the item as and when they are about to be debated by the chamber is a much better idea. It gives context, and I think it's important for the community to have heard at the same time. I do think the code of meeting practice that we are rescinding tonight.

Brought about a lot of community confusion, and I understand that sometimes new things need to be tried and tested and whether they will work. But I'm the president of the Liberal Local Government Assembly, for example, in New South Wales, and I can tell you now that the feedback I sought from the elected Liberals across the state was one that did not enjoy this code of meeting practice. There was questions about what they should do, when to stand, when to do all these different things. And I think that, unfortunately, without being too negative to the minister, he got this one wrong. And I think the fact that councils across the state and also the state parliament did what they could to remove this code of meeting practice shows that it was wrong, it didn't work, it wasn't functional.

Now he has an opportunity to present something else, but I hope it's something that doesn't bring about an excessive amount of change again, because we are dealing with so much right now as a sector, so many different things. We've got, you know, potential budgets to pass in the next meeting and all those kinds of issues that cause community tension. And I think the best thing that can be done is probably not touching something that isn't broken right now, leaving it as it is and letting us get back to what we know. Thank you, Mr Mayor.

Well said, Deputy Mayor.

Councillor Brogner. Thank you, Mr Mayor. I just want to challenge the answer that was given. Under one of Councillor Lyons-Buckett's questions, back in June of last year, there was a motion passed in this Chamber to introduce what I'd call our own version of a public forum. And it was meant to complement the existing mechanism of allowing members of the public to also come and speak immediately prior to various items in the business paper. So I understand that we've mechanically got to do what we're doing tonight, but I will point out that there is a standing resolution of this Chamber for us to hold public forums, and that they are in addition to the ability to speak before items, and that we were heading in that direction and were only gazumped by the Minister's introduction of the faulty code.

Could I just get some clarification about whether that standing resolution, which has been debated and resolved by this Chamber, would also permit us to move quickly to restore the public forums in the way that we resolved in June?

We're proposing to have a workshop, but General Manager

I'll refer that question to the Director of Corporate Services.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. I'd probably have to take that question on notice. My understanding was that the public forum that Council was proposing was being built into the Code of Meeting Practice, that Council never actually adopted because they put that off pending the model code coming through from the Minister.

That said, Mr Mayor, I'll make the following remarks. I understand that we have to do this. I think that the Minister's code was a terrible overreach and created an enormous amount of ill feeling, and I think that was manifested at the Local Government NSW conference that we were able to go to later last year, and many councils, including ours, were able to tell that to his face. But he's an inflexible fellow, and I think that it's only the censure of the upper house that's kind of given us this reprieve at least. I don't know what the minister will do next, but I wouldn't want us to restart the process from scratch to have those public forums. We were heading in that direction. There was a resolution of this chamber.

I appreciate that we might hold a workshop to work out where the dust falls, but there's no need to relitigate this. There's a standing resolution that we wanted to have public forums before meetings. The good news is that we've now built the processes in place to allow people to register. There's a portal on the website. All we're suggesting is that they have the ability, people have the ability, to come and speak to an item that's on their heart, whether it's on the business paper or not, so long as it's relevant to local government. Those parameters have been made clear, and then also speak to items on the business paper as they come up during the business paper. That would be my preferred outcome, and I suspect the preferred outcome of a majority of members of this chamber.

Thank you. Thank you, Councillor.

Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. Look, I think it's important not to get overexcited about this change and the disallowance motion. All indications from the New South Wales Government and from the upper house are that this will be a fairly short-lived period. The minister is not best pleased, unsurprisingly, and it seems that the main sticking point that he is willing to shift on is the issue of councillor attendance via audiovisual link. And the difficulties with that for councillors who work outside their LGAs or struggle to get to the occasional council meeting due to carers' responsibilities or illness has led, in fact, to, since the introduction of this code in December, led to three councillors resigning because they couldn't meet their employment obligations or their carer obligations with their council obligations.

And that's a pretty sad indictment of the Office of Local Government and the minister, who were told very clearly by councillors across New South Wales that that would be one of the very swift ramifications of these changes to the code. Councillors are not paid a living wage. Many of us work outside our jobs on council, and many of us therefore have to travel to go to those jobs and can't make it back necessarily for meetings. And if we do, we tend to take a lot of time off work. So unless you're a teacher, you've got a very understanding boss. It's very difficult to juggle both roles. We also had really good commentary from councillors from other councils at Local Government New South Wales.

One councillor from Penrith, who's the carer for a disabled daughter, who stated that the new code was basically making it impossible for people like her to be represented as elected representatives. That's, again, a really unfortunate, I think, indictment of local government, that it means that only, you know, reasonably well-off people in good circumstances, with all the odds in their favour, get a seat around the table. That's not elected representation. That's not reasonable elected representation. The minister seems to have at least taken these things on board, but it seems unlikely that he's rigid on the subject of briefings. It's possible that we may agree to briefings that are held in public under some sort of committee structure, but I don't think we should be anticipating the days of private briefings lasting for very long.

And he's also quite rigid around some of the other provisions of the new code. So I think this will be short-lived, and I don't think we're going to see a lot of change. I quite like the public forum idea. Some councils—there seems to be a whole lot of, and I don't know that we should say this too often, too loudly, to the Office of Local Government—there seems to be quite some confusion about how that public forum provision can be interpreted. A number of friends of mine at other councils have been told that they can't have a public forum that discusses items that aren't on the business paper. We seem to get around that by having it separate to the council meeting. Some councils have their public forum the day before, some have it the week before.

So it's still— It's still a movable feast, I think, which just goes to show that councils need, I think, the flexibility to set up meetings that work for their communities rather than that work for the Office of Local Government. So I think the moral of the story is probably that the fewer changes that we make at the moment, the better. I don't think it's going to take the minister long before he brings out a new regulation. We've probably only got a couple of months on the old code. I think any changes that we do make are just going to confuse the public even further. They're now dealing with the idea that the public forum is off for a little while and then it's going to be back on again, I think.

So I think if we're having one-on-one, one-off back and forth, I think we just need to wait for the minister and go from there. So

Any further discussion?

The motion is on page five, councillors, point one and two. Right of reply.

Councillor Reardon.

No, not necessary. I also thought the public forums were a great idea. It gave people a chance to express their thoughts, and I hope we can retain that.

Thank you. Those in favour?

Against? It's carried. Councillor Brogner, Councillor Wheeler, Councillor Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Reardon and Sheather. The motion's carried.

Sorry

I'll just read a clarification of the resolution we just passed, Councillors, so we're all clear, and maybe it might help the people that's watching. For councillors attended tonight's meeting for the purpose in the gallery watching the meeting online, the duration of tonight's council meeting will be conducted in accordance with 2023 Code of Meeting Practices. Copies of the 23 code are on Council's desk for reference. The provisions contained within the 2023 Code of Meeting Practice are largely the same as the 2025 Code relating to debate and voting on items, including time limits for speeches. Thank you, Councillors.

The next item is 7.1.1. It's the Mayoral Minute. Councillor Buckett.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'm declaring a less than significant non-pecuniary interest in item 7.1.1. The nature of the interest is that the item refers to the Hawkesbury Gazette and an attachment to the item. I have a familial connection to that organisation. The reason for no further action is that the item is not making any decision regarding that organisation, and as such the degree of interest falls below the threshold of significant.

Thank you. Noted, Councillor.

I'll remain.

Thank you.

Councillor, I move the minute, the recommendation, and that's the Mayoral Minute regarding councillors' behaviour be received and noted. And the — I'm not going to read it out. The intent and the documents that are supplied with it, the accusations that have been made around the place, and that's all they are. No one's prepared to go put names and stuff, and a lot of it is unfounded. The Minister's written to us in that regard, and I put this up on the basis that I believe we can all do better. And I'm not saying that we all don't try. I know the effort that goes into councillors around the table. But for a document where we've been challenged, both in the media, in Parliament to a degree, and the like, is unwarranted.

I believe that we can do a lot better, and this is put here on the basis to review our situation on how we deal with things and moving into the future, that we conduct ourselves as councillors should and move on.

Any debate?

Councillor Ryan. Thank you, Mr Mayor. Look, I'd just like to tell you I'm personally offended by that. Mr Mayor, you're calling out all the councillors publicly. Why? Is it because councillors like myself stand up for this and protect our staff, staff who haven't got the right to reply to harassment in the workplace? They're the real victims. There's examples that they were told they were working for a fascist organisation. That's disgusting. There was many other comments. Or is this just some sort of group punishment that you felt like you wanted to dish out? Because that's how I felt.

And dish out in public to the councillors. Or is this a distraction for some other real issues? Because I'm really starting to feel cornered here on a couple of issues, and that started some time ago, and I think they're starting to come into play. Look, I won't say anything further, but I believe the people of the Hawkesbury and myself feel better that we expect better from these elected officials. Thank you. That's all I ask, Councillor.

Any further debate?

Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. I've put an amendment through to the staff,

So I'll just

Second that

Mr Mayor.

The reason for the amendment is that, to quote former Mayor Barry Calvert, there are no action words in the Mayoral Minute. If we're feting come about doing something about the way we conduct council meetings and dealing with or promoting a better understanding of how we use the Code of Meeting Practice, but also how we meet our governance, confidentiality and work health and safety responsibilities, then I think we need to have a robust discussion and some training in a— and I think a councillor briefing is probably the best place to start. We have a very tiny window where we're going to be able to use council briefings. We may as well take advantage of it. This is a discussion I'm quite willing to have in an open session, but at the moment I think a briefing is probably the best place for us to look at how we— And all of us, frankly, should be able to chair a meeting.

We should all be cognisant. I chair the Heritage Committee regularly. All councillors should have a go at chairing a meeting. It's an essential skill and one that's really useful. out in the rest of the world. But in terms of, we use points of order very badly in this council. We also, I think, could do with a refresher on governance. Clearly, someone in this chamber needs to better understand their confidentiality responsibilities, because, like Councillor Ryan, I deeply resent the implication that I don't understand them. I have never breached, in 10 years, I have never breached confidentiality as a councillor. And I take work health and safety responsibilities incredibly seriously. And I'm deeply dismayed at the

Cavalier way they have been treated for some of our staff. It's —

I've got very clear ideas around leadership. They come— they were forged in a very tough furnace. I taught people who then went to war. I was very lucky that I didn't go, but people that I trained did. If you expect someone to follow you into that sort of environment, you have to be the sort of leader that people can trust. It requires a level of honesty, a level of openness, a level of willingness to share who you really are, but also a level of integrity that means that the people who rely on you know that you will do the right thing by them, regardless. That you will have their back and that they can depend on you. There is currently, amongst some of us, a need to be popular that seems to override the requirement to do the right thing.

And that is having—it's having a deleterious effect on our workplace. But what really bothers me is that that's having an extremely deleterious effect on the workplace of council staff. It's reflected in discussions. It's reflected in morale and in the, what in the army we would refer to as the esprit de corps, the pride in the organisation and the organisation's achievements. We've got to the point where we can't announce a good thing without a social media pile-on. We can't celebrate the things that this council does and does well and puts ourselves on the line for without receiving weeks of garbage. People sitting around this table are responsible for that, in part.

There needs to be a more robust discussion about our responsibilities as leaders of this organisation. Leadership is not a popularity contest. Leadership requires courage, integrity and skill. Not all of us are showing that at the moment.

Thank you, Councillor. I didn't ask for a seconder.

Thank you. Councillor Wheeler, I'm prepared to withdraw my mayoral minute in favour of your amendment.

That's fine. If you can just take that as the mayoral minute, that's fine.

Yep

Councillor Kotlash.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Is there a reason that that just disappeared?

Sorry?

Is there a reason that that— oh, good. Yeah

Well, there is. Most of this stuff's already in train, but this will just confirm through a council resolution that it is going to happen. All the stuff that's in that now the motion before us, the staff have in train and on the way to provide just what's been asked of.

Okay. Am I permitted to ask the mover of the amendment to add something?

It's the motion

The motion, rather.

I mean, I don't want to move this as an amendment to the motion, but I think that I would add at the end of that paragraph that we workshop work health and safety responsibilities and also complaints procedures because I think that that's something that we haven't been trained in adequately , and I think that that's something that we could cover, and we need to cover. That's it. I think I really thank Councillor Wheeler for these action words. You make Barry proud, I think. Lots of action words in there. But it's true, we needed to move forward, and thank you for those, for that. That's it. Thank you.

Thank you. Any further discussion? Deputy Mayor.

Thank you, Mr Mayor, and I do believe that the once amendment now the motion, or now the mayoral minute, is a good pathway forward. I struggled a little bit with this, Mr Mayor, with the content that you wrote in this mayoral minute. I have no desire tonight to be negative or anything like that. However, I did want to make it clear that I thought that some of us in this chamber had spent a lot of time, both in here in the last few meetings and externally in the community, really backing you and the interim General Manager in what you had done in banning the people and the individuals who were causing a risk to both the councillors, but predominantly to our staff. And we spent a lot of time backing that decision and highlighting where the real root risk of damage to people's mental health was coming from.

The sad reality of that is the document that you've attached to your mayoral minute, the letter from the Office of Local Government, that shines a light on the breach of confidentiality that's coming from an elected member of this body. I think it's important that we focus on that because whoever around this table thinks it's okay to consistently engage in the leaking of our confidential information. is part of the problem. And I think the reason I had an issue with the mayoral minute is it collectively threw all of us into the mix of behaviour that we're all not engaging in. And I think that those councillors who are consistently breaching confidentiality, who are consistently encouraging a narrative in our community that is negative and nasty, and Councillor Wheeler touched on that.

You cannot open social media here in the Hawkesbury without abuse. You cannot do that. There are people sitting in this room who are fostering and encouraging that for re-election purposes. I thought I'd say, Mr Mayor, on that bit.

Good.

I think that it's right of you to highlight that we are leaders, and as leaders, we have a responsibility to the community and to showcase to people what it means to be a leader. We make really serious decisions in this chamber, both that affect people's day-to-day lives and also about the expenditure of public money. And that responsibility means that we have to lead by example. And what has happened in our broader community in the last few months, in terms of the hurt that it has caused to people, is almost shameful. And I would really like to see those people who, those elected representatives who are behind this negative campaign in the community against their colleagues and against our organisation, stop that kind of behaviour.

So I see the intent that you had, Mr Mayor, behind this mayoral minute. I think that the words on the screen that now become your mayoral minute give us a pathway to work on those weaknesses that have been identified. I think some governance training in everyone is a wonderful idea. I particularly like the addition of the work health and safety responsibility training. I think that's important. People need to understand the risk. That their actions have on other human beings. And this place here is more than just politicians squabbling. We are human beings. Our community are human beings. The attacks have to stop. So I'll leave my remarks there. I just wanted to say that this is a really, really serious issue, and I really hope that those who are doing the wrong thing can lift their game.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Yeah,

Thank you, Councillor. I take on board your comments, Deputy Mayor. But one of the things that I'm going to stop in this chamber is that if we've got accusations that's directed to individuals, it's going to stop. If someone's got any information in relation to an activity that is not kosher, then the general manager and I need to know about it. And I know there's assertions made from different people at different times for different reasons, both here in the chamber and out. That's the intent of what this mayoral minute's about. The example, and the Deputy Mayor touched on it, we're all better than that, and we know what's right and wrong. So that's the intent. Where we were yesterday or the day before, there's been action taken in quite a few places to try and rectify a situation that's frustrating and unhealthy for some.

And this , you know, what happens in here, in some form or other, is either contributed part of it or listened to it or whatever it is, and it's got to stop. It's got to stop. And I'm not suggesting that any individual or the like is a cause of it, but collectively that's happening, and collectively we can stop it. And we've taken, with the action that we took against the media outlets recently, that was part of it. The ministers chastised us, I guess for the want of a word. He didn't choose any one of us and the like, and I'm not opposed to either. But what I'm suggesting is we're better than that. So, any further debate? Councillor Brogden.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I have a couple of questions through you, Mr Mayor, to the General Manager, and by way of preamble I'll just assure people that what I'm asking the General Manager has been the subject of some correspondence between us over the last few weeks. Is it true, General Manager, that our integrated planning and reporting framework means that any quarterly budget review is a public document and therefore a public process? Through you

Mr Mayor, yes, quarterly budget reviews are tabled via the council meetings. Okay. Is it also true that if there was a financial impact relating to the departure of the former general manager, that the quantum of that financial impact would be reported through the quarterly budget review process? I'd have to take that one on notice, Councillor. That's not the answer that you gave me by correspondence, General Manager. I can't recall the exact words that I provided to you, and I'm not going to guess. I'll make an assertion based on my recollection, and I'm perfectly happy to be corrected. It is my understanding that the financial impact of the departure of the former General Manager would be reported, and further that there would be no obfuscation of that line item.

Just to clarify, Councillor, you asked a particular question that was answered. There's no money that's spent in this building, in this business, that's not clarified somewhere in documents, and if you need where it's clarified at a later time, that will be done. Thank you. You asked in relation to a

Quarterly report. Yeah. So my next question is, Mr Mayor, you permitted the publication of a letter from the Deputy Secretary of the OLG, and I found that publication surprising in the sense that it was clear, even in the wording of the letter, that it was requested that that letter be circulated amongst councillors, not that it would be published. I don't think it's done anything to engender trust in the chamber. I'll just make that remark and move on. The letter, however, since it's now in the public domain, refers to the alleged leaking of matters, and it only uses the word matters, and in the next paragraph it refers to the release of this information. I'd like to be specific about what it was about the departure of the General Manager that was supposed to be kept confidential.

Whether it was a payment or some other element. of that debate that was conducted in confidential session. Could I have some clarification, please?

Yes, you can, Councillor. But before I ask the General Manager if he was given that information, the reason it's in there, and it was circulated to councillors, that we talk about accountability and transparency and the like. When letters are sent to us, because it's been indicated in other places that there's an investigation into wholly for things, there's no investigation with this. There's a letter. It's in the letter. All the information's there. The community can read it as they wish. And the challenge, if there is a challenge within that, and I read very clearly what you just alluded to, that there's an accusation there, and that's one of the things that I believe that we need to stop doing.

We've got someone now in a prominent position. I'm not aware of any particular charge or inference that indicates anybody at all in relation to it, but I'd ask the General Manager to touch on that.

Through you, Mr Mayor, any matter or information that is discussed or comes out during a confidential session of council meetings is to remain confidential. And I think that is pretty clear in the Deputy Secretary's letter.

I thoroughly agree. I'm just trying to square, considering that it's a significant issue , is that there should be clarity, and it will be acknowledged, I hope, that I sought clarification in writing through multiple emails to both the Mayor and the Acting General Manager on this question of what were the matters that were supposed to remain confidential, because if there's an allegation of a leak, then there would have to come something specific. Now. I'll say the quiet part out loud. The local press did report on the fact that the departing general manager received a payment, and I wanted to know whether it was desired or even possible to maintain that element of the discussion as confidential when, as has been discussed, those are budgetary matters and those budgetary matters are open and transparent to the public.

So at that time and ever since, I have sought to seek some kind of clarification about what it was that was confidential that could not be spoken when council's budgetary processes would divulge those details in due course. I don't know whether that's a question or a statement,

Mr Mayor. It is, and I can give you the answer. Certainly. What was available to the public and for discussion was read out by one of our officers after council debated it and it was made public. Whatever wasn't on that document that was discussed that night is confidential. In relation to any funds that were expended through that resolution or the like, it will be accounted in an appropriate manner through our financial structures and they're assessed by a whole heap of people, not only the public, of how that's spent. In relation to a question that might be asked, what that money relates to, at a given time when it's presented in the format that it will be, if you ask that question you'll get an answer. Right.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I just thought it was important to clarify that because the wording of your mayoral minute and the wording of the letter from the Deputy Secretary was not specific, and I've sought clarity on a number of occasions, and I thought it was important that this part of the debate also be held in public. The only other remark that I'll make is this.

It was only a month ago where one of our colleagues, a man that I respect very much, felt so oppressed by the behaviour of some people as that he confessed to suicidal ideation and is now taking a leave of absence.

Mr Mayor, point of order. I don't think that someone's private mental health issues should be spoken about in a public meeting any further. My point of order is 15.11E.

Were you proposing to go any further with that, Councillor?

I was going to make a brief remark. Well, you can rule on the

Point of order. I will rule on it. The point that the Deputy Mayor made is upheld. So your comments

Need to reflect that. Okay. Well, I was close to concluding. I'm simply pointing out the seriousness, the impact, the human cost of the issue that you raised in your mayoral minute. That the tone or the conduct of this chamber makes this a place where we can't deliberate in an evidence-based way on the pressing matters that the people who elected us expect us to be able to do, to discharge our duty, to be financially prudent and have a vision for the future and to engage our community and to have a positive message that we can put out to others. I simply wanted to point out that, you know, one of our colleagues felt so oppressed that he felt that way. You're doing it again, Councillor. No, that's okay. And I myself have felt similarly oppressed. in the past, and it has to come from somewhere, and I'd just like to suggest that I

Don't think— Councillor, I'm going to stop you there. If there's an issue that you need to bring to the general manager or myself, do so. To make assumptions or allegations or the like, I'm not prepared to accept in this chamber. There's a process to go through if someone feels so that they need to express concern for themselves or someone else, and that's the avenue we're going to take.

Thank you, Mr Mayor.

Councillor Lyons Buckett.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'll just touch on a couple of points, and I do find—I know you've asked us not to refer to individuals, but I do have to say I find that commentary a little rich, given that today, upon the announcement of our SRV being successful, on Councillor Zamprogno's page, somebody has commented about the former general manager in a way that exposes something they've been told from a confidential meeting, Mr Mayor, and I will not stop because I'm going to say it. So to sit here and hear that when on a page administered by Councillor Zambrano are our photos because we voted for that, being called maggots, scum, bastards, and he's allowed to sit there and pretend that it's all affecting him.

What about us, our families, and this carry-on in here when you have called for us to try and overcome the division in this community, which is fuelled by that very thing, and I find it insulting that we have to sit here and listen to it. So what I will say is that we cannot make— Decisions on financial prudent, in a prudent way, when we're slammed every time we make a decision, for which we have a right to make a decision. That's our right. We're elected, but every time we make a decision, we're slammed to the ground, told we're corrupt, called names, have our photos plastered everywhere, and that is what has got to stop. I have not seen behaviour in here that is worse than what you see out there, and it has to stop.

And what my first response was, was to call for the Office of Local Government to review every accusation, as you said, the accusations are there. Let's review them and let's have an outcome, because it's lies. It's all made up to do with populism and certain people's agendas. And I'm not going to sit in here quietly and accept it any longer. I've had enough, had enough of it. It has caused division in this community that is dangerous. Well may we speak of individuals, but collectively as a community, a community that's still trying to heal from so many things, it's just absolutely horrendous. And I just think, you know, Councillor Ryan is a first-term councillor, and he's been insulted here tonight.

He's been called a fascist, all sorts of things, and he's only been on here for a year, and that is not a way. That shows an element within this chamber that has been undermining from the outside how we operate here. And it has really got to stop, and it's up to you as our leader to stop it. And just a mayoral minute with no action in it, thank you, Councillor Wheeler for moving it to a briefing, is the only way that we can go forward. It's condescending to be treated as if we don't know what we're doing. Some of us have been here a long time and we do know what we're doing. It's the rippling, undermining, vicious behaviour that is directed to us. We're elected. We sit here. We make a decision.

All of us should be able to justify that decision, however, and the community has to accept that. They can politely and respectfully have an alternative point of view, but they cannot continue this absolutely horrendous response to everything about our council. No wonder our council staff aren't proud to work here. They work in their friendship circles. They're vilified for working here. And why would that be? Not because of what happens in this meeting, because of what is put in the public about this place. I'm proud of our staff and I'm proud of this council, and I'm mostly proud of this chamber, except for sometimes when things are derailed. And then we have the people who think division is the way to surge forward and get yourself further ahead.

Whereas in reality, if we all support each other and we all work together, we all rise up and we make this a better place. Can we not try to do that? I think most of us are committed to that. And I've got another minute, so I'm going to keep going. Let me see, what else have I got? I did have some notes, but I've been a bit derailed because, quite frankly, I'm insulted to the core. I do thank you, Mr Mayor, for raising in your mayoral minute about the confidentiality. That's a very important thing. There's nothing worse than being out in the community and someone says, I heard you said in a meeting about something. I heard you said. That means someone in here has told that person something that I have said, and that's a breach of confidentiality.

The rules are there. The rules about the general manager's guidelines for that are from the Office of Local Government. All the people everyone's running to to have a look at us, we're using their rules. It's the same as in 2020 when the previous general manager left. The reported figures come when they come. I followed up on that all before, and the confidentiality is the same. Thank you, Mr Mayor. Yeah,

Thank you, Councillor.

Any further debate, councillors?

Councillor Wheeler, it's your motion.

But it's your mayoral minute.

I'll just respond by, you know, I can only concur in the intent of the mayoral minute along the lines that Councillor Lyons-Buckett just spoke of. And whatever — I've spoken to the general manager. We've spoken a lot about what's been happening over the last couple of weeks, and whatever avenues that we can take to put a stop to it, we're going to. So that's our only commitment. I'm not a Houdini. I need a bit of help here, and I know allie is up to it. So, councillors, the motion's on the screen in front of you. Those in favour?

Against? It's carried. Councillor Semprogn, Councillor Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Reardon and Sheather. The motion's carried. Those on block.

Mr

Mayor, I have a conflict on one of those.

Yes, we'll pull 9.4.7, Council lands bucket needs to declare a matter in that regard.

Can I have a motion in relation to items 9.4.1, 9.4.2, 9.4.3, 9.4.4, 9.4.5, 9.4.6, 9.5.1, 10.1.1.

Yes. Question of order, Mr Mayor.

Question.

Question of order. Section 13.1(e) of the Code of Meeting Practice. Yep. It says that you move the items for exception.

Yes.

You don't need a seconder, a mover and seconder. It says that you will move it. Because I've been madly researching my Code of Meeting Practice, because from now on I'm going to be taking this much more seriously than I have, I came across that clause. Yep. It's 3.1(e).

That's fine, councillors. Okay. that. Is there anybody who wishes to speak against it? Those in favour?

It's carried. Councillor Zamprogno, Councillor Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Reardon and Sheather. Thank you for that, Councillor. I'll take that well on board. Thank you.

The next item is 9.4.7, Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'll declare a less than significant non-pecuniary interest in item 9.4.7. The nature of the interest is that the item mentions a property which may become the subject of a further item to Council. We are the owners adjacent to that property, 295 Sackville Road, Wilberforce. The reason for no further action is that there's no decision to be made at this meeting with respect to that property; therefore, the interest is less than significant.

Thank you, Councillor.

I've put that item.

Those in favour?

Against? Carried. Councillor Kotlash, 11.1.1.

Thank you, Mr Mayor.

I'll second that, Mr Mayor. Thanks. The inspiration for this notice of motion was actually our very first speaker at our very first public forum. We had a gentleman, Mr Michael Pullen, who was, I think, he was the CEO of Windsor Leagues Club, and he addressed us about the need for more sporting grounds and facilities. And it was astounding. I had no idea that the growth in junior sport could be quite so, well, quite so dramatic.

And

It's seems that it's not going to stop anytime soon.

So , we have been talking about using schools and school grounds because they're publicly funded, and I thought that we would be sort of looking into that, but it seems that it's fallen through the cracks. So, I thought I'd just give this notice of motion and use it as a bit of a nudge along for us to investigate. Sorry, I should get to the part of the business paper so I know what I wrote. I think that we need to just find out how many schools might be eligible, might be suitable, I guess. Also, we need to know if some schools have some sort of unusual or unique sporting facilities that they might also be able to share. So, it's an expansion of sporting fields and facilities, but it's also possibly about expanding the types and the range of sports that we can provide facilities for. So, that's a kind of a two-way benefit.

The other inspiration for the notice of motion was that I was talking to somebody and they said, why when I go to the ACT on the weekend, why are there so many people in their public schools? And I thought, well. I know I'm a know-it-all, but I didn't know the reason for that. So I looked up the legislation, and the ACT has a very specific overarching policy that any public-funded facilities are for the public, and they get kind of not precedents necessarily, but they are open, and the expectation on schools is that they need to open up and they need to share that space. So it is a very different setup. In New South Wales, when I looked up how far we'd moved down that track, it's similar . It's a bit more restrictive in that, and I've put this in the notice of motion background as well.

The Department of Education already has mechanisms to make this happen. So I think, I just don't understand why it kind of not happened—

Why it hasn't happened to date. So I hope that this is not too onerous. I think we need to sort of maybe choose a couple of schools, maybe start the process and see how that goes. I don't actually care how it's done, but it'd be really great if we could assist the Sports Council to identify where we might have more sporting grounds. And the other aspect of this, which is point four, which it says in the, I think it says in the note from management, I was intrigued that there's still—there's a second round of... Public consultation in the Department of Education's master planning landscape document, and I think that's a really good opportunity for us to start to look at and have input into the design of schools so that instead of these big black fences that we see all around, new schools are designed so they are able to be opened up easily and it's not kind of a fortress.

And the way things are designed, it's easy for people to have access to these publicly funded facilities. I don't know how that works, and I'm not sure that it's even possible to have that sort of interaction. But I guess I just included that as it'd be great if we could get involved. So that's it. That's as complicated as it gets. And I really look forward to the report coming back because I think if it can't be done, I'd be really agitating to change legislation so it can be done because I'm really a firm believer in if public money has gone into the development of any facilities, they shouldn't be locked up. I'm losing my voice, I'm sorry. They shouldn't be locked up for a time. I mean, I think that's crazy, especially when we're crying out for more facilities.

So that's it. I hope you can support it. Thank you. Yeah,

Thank you. I'll just say something. Thank you for that, Councillor. I'll just give you a bit of background on what. What's happening with sport and public facilities other than council-owned land? Starting the regions like Colo Heights and Bilpin , they put in for grants from time to time for the multipurpose courts. The Sports Council has been involved with them for many years about supporting reseals or the like as a priority. They speak with the local members about that. If they provide keys to the community, whether they charge or not, that's up to them. But if public funds have been spent on the schools, like with grants and stuff like that, if they make their facilities available after hours for tennis or the like, and the Sports Council supported that forever.

The rap bases is another place. They play cricket out there, not as much as they used to because there's issues with security these days, but that gets used. The university is another one, both on their playing fields and the pool before it was filled in. There's issues with that, with the management structure of the university. Windsor High School is used for cricket from time to time and overflow in wet weather sometimes for football. The problem there, that a amenities building, the access from the playing fields is built for the students of the school, and so for security reasons that would have to be sectioned off and the like. But that's been done in the past with temporary fencing and toilets have been brought in for the period it's been required.

Behind the pool at Windsor, at Richmond, sorry, the Sports Council's negotiated with Richmond High School that when Tamplin Field is worked on, it's likely that that'll be the place. We were hoping for McMahons Park, but there's two different organisations using that, or there would be. And one of the issues is that if it goes on for a couple of years, that the Tamplin Field would lose their people to McMahons Park. So there's negotiations with the pool, and I believe there's stuff being signed up for that to happen. There's a little bit of expenditure there, but the grounds look like they're going to be made available. So there is work, but it's been ad hoc. This motion can certainly have council interact with the government buildings and the Sports Council for opportunities that exist there.

So, Councillor, thank you. Councillor Lyons-Buckett.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. I'm happy to, and you did sort of answer a couple of things maybe I would have asked, but I'm happy to second this. I have raised it before as well. I think it's an obvious use that we should see, and I thank Councillor Kotlash for putting it in a format that will progress it forward. I think particularly in point two, if any schools have unusual or unique sporting facilities, I think that's, you know, quite legitimate because these days when people play things like pickleball and all sorts of things, there may be a school where that's a sort of a fad or something, and they may have the facilities, and that could be used by a wider variety. I'm not quite sure when it shifted that we didn't use schools.

I know once the basketball stadium was built, I used to play basketball at the university and at the jail, actually, which was an experience, but once the stadium was built, that centralised that sport. But I think maybe the Civil Liability Act in 2002 may have changed some of the simply allowing people onto school grounds for sporting events, but, and the big black fences that we do see there were a strategy in response to vandalism, I believe, a few years ago. So it would be really good if we could work around these things. Many schools have some multiple, you know, courts that can be used for training in particular, and they have ovals. I know school halls that were all built, of course, under a federal government grant scheme can be hired in many cases.

So there must be ways around utilising school facilities. It's terrible to see them there on a weekend just sitting idle when we know that some children may be missing out on their training or their game for the weekend. So let's hope that we can get this report back and that there can be some sort of... Potentially after that, some sort of advocacy to the Minister for Sport. I don't know who that is currently, but we could progress that forward even further. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Briden.

Mr Mayor, I think this is a great idea, and it would be really good for security for the schools.

Yep.

Councillor Wheeler.

Thanks, Mr Mayor. I think this is a good way forward. One of the advantages of our public schools is that they are built on land that's flood-free, which is more than we can say for most of our sporting ovals. So even if they were able to provide some space for times where we can't use our sporting facilities, or at least allow our sporting facilities to recover, it would be a start. I agree wholeheartedly with Councillor Kotlash that facilities built with public money should be accessible by the public, and in that vein, I would also like to see us explore the use of some private school facilities as well, because the vast majority of those are built with public funds as well, and I don't think we should necessarily stop at public schools.

I know that's much more difficult to execute because it requires layers of different bureaucracy, including the Catholic Diocese and the various Anglican and private schools. But we do have a lot of private schools in the Hawkesbury, and I think it's also worth noting, in fact, that none of these places pay rates. So they benefit greatly from ratepayers' money, and many of them educate ratepayers' children, but they are part of the 80% of land in this LGA that makes no contribution to the rates income of this council. Thanks.

Thank you.

Councillor Brogden. Thank you, Mr Mayor. I have no difficulty with this notice of motion. It's very sensible. It speaks to something that I've heard in conversation on a number of occasions. Like Councillor Wheeler, I wonder how we could broaden its scope. Public schools, yes. Private schools, probably. Many people have come to me saying, well, you know, you've got a lot of heavy residential development immediately adjacent to Schofield National Park, and Schofield National— Park isn't a normal park in the sense that it's all pristine wilderness. It's been heavily affected through human activity over many years, and it has already been the case that people have used portions of Scabell National Park for both passive and active recreation, including by the Dresage community.

And of course, as we know through debate in this chamber, we are desperately short of dressage facilities in this LGA. We have dressage facilities that are laying fallow and that aren't being used because of disputes. So I wonder whether we could approach national parks and get some kind of hybrid use out of areas of Scabell National Park. These are areas that are already, in a sense, set up, but it hasn't been formalised. It hasn't been brought under the wing of Council or incorporated into our recreational strategies or, you know, broached with the Sports Council. But there are other kinds of land that are amenable to this use, even beyond what Councillor Kotlash is suggesting here. And I hope either that Councillor Kotlash would be content to expand the scope of this, or that the staff listening on get the tone of the intent that we're projecting here and might broaden it to those other kinds of land use.

Thank you.

Yeah, thank you, Councillor. Just in relation to the Scabell, they're proposing to revitalise , I suppose, some of the sporting grounds out there. To what degree they can be used for competition, not quite sure, but they're keen. Our local member, both our local members are involved in supporting that as well. So there's definitely a move, and I'm sure our staff are well aware. They've probably had discussions already in relation to that regard, what's required to make that happen.

Deputy Mayor.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. My remarks will be brief. I just want to support Councillor Kotlash and the initiative with this notice of motion. It's nice to see that there'll be support for this amongst our colleagues in the Chamber. I think it's a good idea to have a look at those shared assets that we have that are basically exist because of public funds, and it's a good way to address the acute problem that we have when we don't have enough sporting fields. And here we were earlier tonight acknowledging and celebrating Anne Neal, someone who's dealt with that issue for a number of years in our LGA. I do think we need to start looking at ways to solve problems by stepping outside the box, stepping outside of what we would normally do.

I think Councillor Kotlash touched on the fact that this happens in the ACT. Why can't it happen in New South Wales? Well, a lot of stuff doesn't happen in New South Wales because of our government. But at the end of the day, I think that we need to start looking at those different aspects and how to solve problems with the tools in our toolbox that we have. Thank you, Councillor.

Yeah. Just make comment in relation to following on from you, Deputy Mayor. We've got 38 playing fields across our city. The best one by far is Pensons Lane. It's a complex. And just be mindful when we talk about individual grounds, they need the same facilities on them as where you can multi-purpose a ground, back-to-back and stuff like that, lights, toilets, everything. And it's those facilities and the running costs of them that are a cost, apart from the ground itself. So it's all right to say, oh, we've got a particular piece of ground somewhere that we can utilise for that purpose. But when you start putting amenities on it and, you know, a good example of the sort of money you need to spend is Fernadell.

So just be mindful that there's a whole heap of things to look at. That's, you know, the schools are at a great advantage if we build such a facility on their properties, because they can utilise them every day. But the facilities have already got. Any further discussion, Councillors?

Right of reply, Councillor.

Thank you, Mr Mayor. Thank you everyone for your input into this. And I have to, I— sorry, I was grinning when Councillor Wheeler went down the road of private schools, and I was almost getting hysterical when Councillors Zamprogno mentioned national parks and wildlife, because I actually started to look at that and thought, okay, well this is really complicated, because naturally I had to read every bit of legislation attached to it. So the purpose— I'm happy for that to be kind of included if the staff think that that's kind of sensible and doable. But the reason I pulled back and thought, no, we'll just see what we can do with public schools at the moment

Was I really did, I went, I just pulled it back to the, not the bare bones, but I guess, what are the low-hanging fruit? Because I thought the Department of Education already has those agreements sort of in template. We can have joint use agreements, which is we pay for some extra facility in a school.

They benefit, we benefit, and we spend, you know, an eighth of the money that we needed to spend to get that facility. Likewise, the shared use agreement. We don't put any money into that, but we have some sort of, you know, reciprocal arrangements and both benefit . So I suppose that's why I didn't include those things.

Look, I guess, why don't we leave it at this just to get the process running. And I'm sure at a later stage, now the staff know that, I mean, obviously if it's easy to do. I remember spending a few years of my life trying to get some steps put in on National Park, so I'm not sure whether they have very rigid kind of, I don't think it's changed, but that was just a little too much for me to work out. But happy if Skyville is an exception for that to be thrown in. I'd just like to say that I think a lot of the barriers to actually formalising and making this just commonplace is the attitude of both the Department of Education, and it's based on what Councillor Lyons-Buckett said about the Civil Liability Act.

We went , schools used to be much more open than they are. Then there was, you know, lots of things happened and those big fences were built, and children's safety also was not just about people coming in, it's just not letting the kids out. All of that has sort of changed the attitude of how accessible these places are. And I think we have to work on that attitude. We have to pair that back. I know there's security issues, but as- Councillor Reardon said there might be some reciprocal advantages

Having somebody use grounds on the weekend that actually enhance security. So there's a lot of, you know, I want to flip this into it's win-win. This has just got to be a good idea, and I hope it is. And the other thing about, I think is a bit of a stumbling block, is clubs , sporting clubs that I have to claim I don't know that much about, but it seems to me that they need some certainty. They need to be able to build, you know, at least a year or two so that their competitions and so they can organise themselves in that way. So I think we aim for that. We aim to formalise this. I was , when I was going to include the private schools, I really did think that they, we should try and get some sort of arrangements with them. I mean, if,

We'll go, we'll maybe go down that track later, but I think they have really good facilities and I think they need to start sharing them. Otherwise we could, no, legislatively we can't charge them rates, unfortunately, but it'd be good if we could.

So yeah, so that's it. I'm glad that we're going to kick this along. I think, I hope we're pleasantly surprised. I hope there's a lot of... I hope there's some schools that understand that some kids might be missing out, and that's just not acceptable. Thanks.

Thank you, Councillor.

The motion is before you, councillor. Those in favour?

Against? It's carried. Councillors Zamprogno, Wheeler, Lyons-Buckett, Ryan, Jurek, McMahon, Kotlash, Reardon and Sheather. The motion is carried.

13.1.1, response to councillors' questions.

14.3.3, it's a confidential document, councillors. We need to go into session. Can we have a motion in that regard? Councillor Kotlash, Councillor Reardon.

Those in favour? Against? It's carried.

Go into session.

Councillor Ryan, that was—you were caught on the hop a bit there, but you need to declare the interest you had.

I mean,

You need . Thank you, Mr Mayor. It's item 14. 3.1, I have a less than pecuniary significant non-pecuniary interest in that item, where I have a member of my family who attends that school. Appreciate that. And you left the room, Councillor. And I left the room. Thank you.

Thank you very much. General Manager. Thank you, Mr Mayor. Whilst in closed session, Council resolved on the motion of Councillor McMahon and seconded by Councillor Djuric that Council agree to enter into a lease with Richmond Preschool Kindergarten Association Incorporated, incorporated number Y0807231, for part of the property known as 110 March Street, Richmond, being part of Lot 2 in Deposited Plan 575929, part of Lot 2 in Deposited Plan 560898, part of Lot 4 in Deposited Plan 561147, and part of Lot 6 in Deposited Plan 560899, as outlined in this report. Two, authority be given for the lease and any other documentation in association with this matter to be executed under the seal of Council.

And three, details of Council's resolution be conveyed to the proposed lessee together with the advice that Council is not and will not be bound by the terms of its resolution until such time as appropriate legal documentation to put such a resolution into effect has been agreed to and executed by all parties. For the motion were Councillors Zamprogno, Djuric, McMahon, Kotlash, Reardon and Sheather. Against the motion were Councillors Wheeler and Councillor Lyons-Buckett, and absent from the chamber, Councillor Ryan. Thank you, Mr Mayor.

Thank you, Councillors. That concludes the meeting tonight. Thank you for your attendance and the staff. I'll close the meeting.